Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 5638280 times)

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18300 on: July 27, 2017, 10:54:53 AM »
$350.000 .... and my coworkers think I lost my mind for cycling 2 miles to work every day. I don't have a car, so it's literally every day.

Cost of buying a fairly new and barely used good quality brand city bike in 2008: EUR 350.
Small maintenance 2008-2016: EUR 50
Large maintenance 2016: EUR 150 (basically everything new except frame)
One time bike tire repair when I was far away from home and couldn't fix it myself: EUR 30.

Total for 9 years: EUR 580  or 65 EUR/year. Plus 5 hours of guaranteed exercise every week and it's a pretty scenic route.
Amount of times the weather was so bad the past year I had to take the bus: 2. (at EUR 3 for a return ticket).

I'm pretty sure my coworkers feel sorry for me and talk about it behind my back. And they don't even know that we take 'we don't drive' so literally that neither my partner or I actually have a driver's license.

cheapass

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18301 on: July 27, 2017, 11:03:58 AM »
Yeah, but the Mustachian will have an unreliable car.  So it seems worth it to me. /s

I mean, can you really put a price on reliable transportation? I know I'd spend 300 grand to avoid possibly visiting a mechanic slightly more often during my peak years.... xD

Yeah it's totally worth working an extra 5 years. GAAAHHHH!!!!!
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LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18302 on: July 27, 2017, 11:42:11 AM »
$350.000 .... and my coworkers think I lost my mind for cycling 2 miles to work every day. I don't have a car, so it's literally every day.

Cost of buying a fairly new and barely used good quality brand city bike in 2008: EUR 350.
Small maintenance 2008-2016: EUR 50
Large maintenance 2016: EUR 150 (basically everything new except frame)
One time bike tire repair when I was far away from home and couldn't fix it myself: EUR 30.

Total for 9 years: EUR 580  or 65 EUR/year. Plus 5 hours of guaranteed exercise every week and it's a pretty scenic route.
Amount of times the weather was so bad the past year I had to take the bus: 2. (at EUR 3 for a return ticket).

I'm pretty sure my coworkers feel sorry for me and talk about it behind my back. And they don't even know that we take 'we don't drive' so literally that neither my partner or I actually have a driver's license.
That's too bad. You never know when you could need one. And if it is just to carry that big piece of furniture for 2 km instead of paying 40 delivery.

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18303 on: July 27, 2017, 01:08:40 PM »
$350.000 .... and my coworkers think I lost my mind for cycling 2 miles to work every day. I don't have a car, so it's literally every day.

Cost of buying a fairly new and barely used good quality brand city bike in 2008: EUR 350.
Small maintenance 2008-2016: EUR 50
Large maintenance 2016: EUR 150 (basically everything new except frame)
One time bike tire repair when I was far away from home and couldn't fix it myself: EUR 30.

Total for 9 years: EUR 580  or 65 EUR/year. Plus 5 hours of guaranteed exercise every week and it's a pretty scenic route.
Amount of times the weather was so bad the past year I had to take the bus: 2. (at EUR 3 for a return ticket).

I'm pretty sure my coworkers feel sorry for me and talk about it behind my back. And they don't even know that we take 'we don't drive' so literally that neither my partner or I actually have a driver's license.
That's too bad. You never know when you could need one. And if it is just to carry that big piece of furniture for 2 km instead of paying 40 delivery.

I agree it's a useful skill to have, and I certainly wouldn't mind being able to drive, it's just totally not cost effective.

A driver's license costs about EUR 2500 in my country. Then after you get your license, you need to either buy a car or rent one frequently to learn to drive because only after you pass the test you really learn to drive on your own (without the instructor correcting you when you almost get yourself killed). If you add up all costs for learning to drive, buying or renting a car, tax, petrol, insurance etc you might well spend EUR 10.000 before you can say you're a good driver and you're not going to forget that skill even when you only drive infrequently. To put that in perspective, that's 2/3 of what I earn in a year.

That's a lot of money for something you'll barely use in your daily life. Neither me or my s/o had that kind of money when we turned 18 and we were sensible enough not to take out a loan for it. By the time we were financially stable enough to be able to afford to learn to drive (which is about now, at 27/31) we've gotten so used to living without a car I wouldn't even know what to use it for. I guess we could indeed use it to haul furniture from the store, but we hardly ever buy furniture and our thrift store delivers for EUR 10. We carried a desk home for 2 km a while ago and it was surprisingly easy. The grocery store and most online stores deliver for free these days. We could drive to family out of town, but taking the train would be more efficient. I literally can't even think of 10 places I would go to if I had a car (although I'm sure if you do have one, you get used to it soon enough).

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18304 on: July 27, 2017, 03:00:03 PM »
Imma,  why so much for a driver's license?  Does it include insurance (on the driver) rather than insurance being bought on the car like in the USA?

DD is getting her license.

$15 for the learners permit, $34 for the road test x 2,  plus paying for repeats.
$200 to add her to the car's insurance policy, for the year.
We paid about $700 for lessons plus practice / teaching her ourselves.  Some parents don't pay for lessons with outside instructors, however.

Total minimum is about $300 plus fuel, plus my time to teach her.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18305 on: July 27, 2017, 03:25:49 PM »
In most European countries, the State wants to be convinced you actually know how to drive. That means strict learning school requirements with a professional, and you must usually be proficient with a manual gearbox.

You should expect 2000 in Germany, 1500 in France, and about 1200 in Belgium. Less in Spain and Portugal, but still well over what's customary in North America.

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18306 on: July 27, 2017, 03:59:20 PM »
Yes, that's the reason (I'm in the Netherlands) . You can't just learn to drive from your parents, you can only learn from an instructor. Expect instruction to cost 40-60 per hour and on average you'll need about 40. The driving theory exam costs 30, the road test about 250. The actual driver's license is 40 and before that you'll need to get a medical statement that you're fit to drive. If you get the all clear without needing further checks, that statement costs 30, if there are any concerns it's 60-120.

And yes, it's right that in here you learn to drive a manual. You can take a special exam for just automatic cars and you'll get a special driving license. As most cars are manual in here, very few people do that voluntarily - only if they just don't manage to learn driving a manual.

But if you only need to spend $300 on a license, of course that's a skill you need to learn. It is a really convenient thing to be able to do, even if you're not planning on buying your own car for the time being. You'll never know what happens. A while back we went to a festival 4 hours away with some friends. We took the train, the other couple drove. Only the guy had his driver's license. He sustained a bad knee injury and couldn't drive back. Another friend had to travel all that way just to get the other couple's car home. In situations like that it would be really convenient if more people were able to drive. I think about 50% of women in our group of friends don't drive and 25% of men. Men seem to be more interested in cars and more often have jobs that require a license. I know my partner wants a license more than I do (but he wants money in his investments more than he wants a driving license).

markbike528CBX

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18307 on: July 27, 2017, 04:00:09 PM »
Some basic physics might need to be included if I was the State :-) And the fact that the laws of physics DO apply even on the German Autobahn.   

I was on the Autobahn (A6 near Stuttgart?) at my max comfortable speed (~100km/hr) for the very rainy wet conditions, and in a smaller Peugeot, when I was passed at about 130-140km/hr (85-90mph) by a newer 3 series BMW.  Sure enough, 10km down the road, the car had shed pieces while bouncing from guardrail to guardrail.

That being said, I would agree that Euro drivers are generally better, if no more careful, than US drivers.

My favorite Autobahn memory is being in a group of 3 cars at 200km/hr (120mph) in the right (slow) lane, cuz, you never know how fast the traffic behind you might be, and one NEVER hogs the left lane.   We made it at least 5km that way before we had to pass anyone.

Feivel2000

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18308 on: July 27, 2017, 11:05:39 PM »


Some basic physics might need to be included if I was the State :-) And the fact that the laws of physics DO apply even on the German Autobahn.

In the German theoretical driver license test you need to know the formula to calculate the expected distance to stop the car.


craiglepaige

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18309 on: July 28, 2017, 06:13:09 AM »
Walked in to work (BMW dealership) half hour ago and I see a new car being prepped to be delivered. The license plate reads, "YBUYIT".  Awesome ;)

I talked to the sales lady who was wiping the car down with the porters and who I've known for years, and she said this couple has been leasing cars from her for the last 13 years.  This new one is a top of the line 5 series. I checked the lease info we have out front, $5294 due at signing with $569 a month for 36mos. Insanity.
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zolotiyeruki

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18310 on: July 28, 2017, 06:59:23 AM »
Walked in to work (BMW dealership) half hour ago and I see a new car being prepped to be delivered. The license plate reads, "YBUYIT".  Awesome ;)

I talked to the sales lady who was wiping the car down with the porters and who I've known for years, and she said this couple has been leasing cars from her for the last 13 years.  This new one is a top of the line 5 series. I checked the lease info we have out front, $5294 due at signing with $569 a month for 36mos. Insanity.
That's almost $26k to basically rent a car for 3 years.  Ouch.  That's more than the cost of all 4 cars we've owned in 14 years of marriage (2 at a time).

MsSnowBlack

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18311 on: July 28, 2017, 03:03:27 PM »
This just happened today. I need to rant.

I'm currently working and living at an offshore financial centre where individual tax is extremely low but cost of living is somewhat high. We had a lunch and learn today where I met 3 people from a different department. We started chatting about island life, travel, vacation and etc. One guy mentioned a former colleague called Bob who quitted the job last year and has been travelling the world since then. He currently stays in India since March become it costs close to nothing to live in that country. Another guy quickly jumped in and added that Bob was able to save $50k during his 2-year contract here. All 3 guys were saying what a miserable life he must be living in and it was impossible to save that much!  I just said sure he can, $50k is definitely doable. They all stared at me as if I'm an alien. One guy said no way, you need to live a life here. Another guy said that life is short, why would you want to save that much after all. And no matter how much you save, you still can't buy a property here or a place in London (where he comes from). The 3rd guy added that sure you can save a lot of money and may get hit by a bus as soon as you move back to London, so why save.

I was speechless. I know saving $50k in 2 years is doable and I can even show them the math but I just kept my mouth shut. According to them, Bob earned $74k per year. Based on my calc, he gets around $66k net, which is $5500 per month. 1bd rent+utility would cost him around $2000 per month. If he had a roommate, it would be even less. Another $500 for home cooked food, $200 for internet and cell. That leaves him $2800. Fun money and etc for another $300. He can save $2500 a month easily which is $60k for 2 years. Bob only saved $50k so the math certainly works out. By the way, I spent less in every category myself.

I earn a bit more than Bob did and my goal is to save $50k a year. I'm on my way to my goal as I was sitting at the lunch table with those guys. Like I said, I kept my mouth shut.

financialfreedomsloth

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18312 on: July 30, 2017, 08:09:59 AM »
This just happened today. I need to rant.

I'm currently working and living at an offshore financial centre where individual tax is extremely low but cost of living is somewhat high. We had a lunch and learn today where I met 3 people from a different department. We started chatting about island life, travel, vacation and etc. One guy mentioned a former colleague called Bob who quitted the job last year and has been travelling the world since then. He currently stays in India since March become it costs close to nothing to live in that country. Another guy quickly jumped in and added that Bob was able to save $50k during his 2-year contract here. All 3 guys were saying what a miserable life he must be living in and it was impossible to save that much!  I just said sure he can, $50k is definitely doable. They all stared at me as if I'm an alien. One guy said no way, you need to live a life here. Another guy said that life is short, why would you want to save that much after all. And no matter how much you save, you still can't buy a property here or a place in London (where he comes from). The 3rd guy added that sure you can save a lot of money and may get hit by a bus as soon as you move back to London, so why save.

I was speechless. I know saving $50k in 2 years is doable and I can even show them the math but I just kept my mouth shut. According to them, Bob earned $74k per year. Based on my calc, he gets around $66k net, which is $5500 per month. 1bd rent+utility would cost him around $2000 per month. If he had a roommate, it would be even less. Another $500 for home cooked food, $200 for internet and cell. That leaves him $2800. Fun money and etc for another $300. He can save $2500 a month easily which is $60k for 2 years. Bob only saved $50k so the math certainly works out. By the way, I spent less in every category myself.

I earn a bit more than Bob did and my goal is to save $50k a year. I'm on my way to my goal as I was sitting at the lunch table with those guys. Like I said, I kept my mouth shut.
Your co-workers are idiots. Bob was definitely the smarter one. Are you on one of the British channel islands? Perhaps I should have a look at the jo postings for Guernsey or Jersey, two years in a job like that and I would be done in stead of the 5 years left in Belgium ...
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JayhawkRacer

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18313 on: July 31, 2017, 10:40:37 AM »
coworker actually said this today "I'm 63 and starting to worry about retirement."  He makes around $130k/yr, it's not a stretch to believe that his inflation adjusted salary has been in that range for decades.

One of my key drivers to force me to look into financial independence/personal finance was a conversation I had with my mom. She was slightly younger than 63, but said the same thing about being worried about retirement. It amazes me...

One of the perhaps understressed boons of mustachian/frugality. I'm not all that close to FI, but by my math, I could stop contributing entirely and still retire comfortably at 65.
Maybe there should be a slogan: Just try it for a few years, and then you can give up go back to your spendypants ways, and you'll still retire well. (Assuming they can keep their hands out of the cookie jar.)

A great point, one I've been thinking about a lot regarding saving now and then maybe going part time in the future.

Some basic examples:

Save $100,000 by 30, stop saving altogether, by 65 it's worth $1,150,615.
Even save $100,000 by 40, stop saving, by 65 it's worth $572,541.

Both amounts would ease a lot of minds regarding retirement I'd bet!

I'm digging this up from an older page, but holy cow! I just passed 100k at 26 and I hadn't even considered this math before (early retirement is the goal).

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18314 on: July 31, 2017, 07:42:14 PM »
My office is near a high-end department store and it is the default shopping destination for the rest of my team. They tend to buy most things there, for prestige and convenience, rather than shopping around.

This includes lunches, groceries, alcohol, appliances, clothes, electronics, and linen, all of which could be purchased elsewhere for 30-40 per cent less.

FIREby35

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18315 on: July 31, 2017, 07:45:57 PM »

Uuughhh people. What a load of total crap they talk. You have to have a certain number of x chromosomes to be allowed to bake cookies huh. My boyfriend bakes amazing cakes and cookies all the time and I 100% support this. Only for gender equality reasons obviously ;)

Your (ex) colleagues don't deserve cookies.

My husband is the official sewer/mender.  I support it solely for gender equality reasons and not for the health of my fingerpads or general laziness.

My husband is a brilliant chef, and does all our cooking. So much so that he took over the kitchen when we moved in together. But his baking is... less brilliant. He loves to experiment, which doesn't work as well as a baker. I've gotten him to refine his chocolate chip cookie recipe and his brownie recipe because those are important to me, but every once in a while he decides to experiment again. It rarely goes well.

I used to make great banana bread because I'd memorized my grandmother's recipe. Whenever he makes banana bread, it's crap.

I've stopped asking for banana bread. At least I still make the pies. I refuse to give him the chance to screw those up.

This is 100% the reason I don't bake. Way too much precision required in the measurements - I want to eyeball everything and experiment.

I know my limitations.

You should tell Big Boss about the investment options and why they stink and offer to reorganize it for him. I'm just saying :)

prognastat

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18316 on: August 01, 2017, 07:51:05 AM »
Yes, that's the reason (I'm in the Netherlands) . You can't just learn to drive from your parents, you can only learn from an instructor. Expect instruction to cost 40-60 per hour and on average you'll need about 40. The driving theory exam costs 30, the road test about 250. The actual driver's license is 40 and before that you'll need to get a medical statement that you're fit to drive. If you get the all clear without needing further checks, that statement costs 30, if there are any concerns it's 60-120.

And yes, it's right that in here you learn to drive a manual. You can take a special exam for just automatic cars and you'll get a special driving license. As most cars are manual in here, very few people do that voluntarily - only if they just don't manage to learn driving a manual.

But if you only need to spend $300 on a license, of course that's a skill you need to learn. It is a really convenient thing to be able to do, even if you're not planning on buying your own car for the time being. You'll never know what happens. A while back we went to a festival 4 hours away with some friends. We took the train, the other couple drove. Only the guy had his driver's license. He sustained a bad knee injury and couldn't drive back. Another friend had to travel all that way just to get the other couple's car home. In situations like that it would be really convenient if more people were able to drive. I think about 50% of women in our group of friends don't drive and 25% of men. Men seem to be more interested in cars and more often have jobs that require a license. I know my partner wants a license more than I do (but he wants money in his investments more than he wants a driving license).

Yeah this is so true, it can get very expensive very quickly if you get in a negative loop where you fail and then next test you get more nervous because you've failed before and you've spent so much already. I ended up giving up because we had spent a year working on it along with failing 3 tests costing me almost 4k with nothing to show for it despite having no problems driving when it was just the instructor and I was planning on moving to the US soon. So I just stopped taking lessons and took the test here. Passed on the first go and cost me maybe $50.

Part of me feels that the Dutch system isn't only about safety, but also about generating revenue with how expensive the tests are. I do have to say though I never saw so many car accidents until I moved to the US. This could of course also just be due to the increased amount of driving Americans do compared to the Dutch.

cheapass

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18317 on: August 01, 2017, 08:01:44 AM »
My office is near a high-end department store and it is the default shopping destination for the rest of my team. They tend to buy most things there, for prestige and convenience, rather than shopping around.

This includes lunches, groceries, alcohol, appliances, clothes, electronics, and linen, all of which could be purchased elsewhere for 30-40 per cent less.

Hope they're okay with working 30-40% longer
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

gReed Smith

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18318 on: August 01, 2017, 08:58:20 AM »
Part of me feels that the Dutch system isn't only about safety, but also about generating revenue with how expensive the tests are. I do have to say though I never saw so many car accidents until I moved to the US. This could of course also just be due to the increased amount of driving Americans do compared to the Dutch.

It's probably the amount of driving, but also every 16 year old can drive (and younger in come farm states).  If you eliminated all drivers under 18, quartered the number under 25 and reduced the number of miles driven by 50%, I bet car accidents would be rare.

As frustrating as it was to pay high car insurance rates when I was young, 90% of the drivers I see driving like morons are young men.  The balance are old - over 80.

RWD

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18319 on: August 01, 2017, 10:07:15 AM »
Part of me feels that the Dutch system isn't only about safety, but also about generating revenue with how expensive the tests are. I do have to say though I never saw so many car accidents until I moved to the US. This could of course also just be due to the increased amount of driving Americans do compared to the Dutch.

It's probably the amount of driving, but also every 16 year old can drive (and younger in come farm states).  If you eliminated all drivers under 18, quartered the number under 25 and reduced the number of miles driven by 50%, I bet car accidents would be rare.

As frustrating as it was to pay high car insurance rates when I was young, 90% of the drivers I see driving like morons are young men.  The balance are old - over 80.

"In the United States, the fatal crash rate per mile driven for 16-19 year-olds is nearly 3 times the rate for drivers ages 20 and over. Risk is highest at ages 16-17. In fact, the fatal crash rate per mile driven is nearly twice as high for 16-17 year-olds as it is for 18-19 year-olds."
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/teenagers/fatalityfacts/teenagers

Though it's hard to say how much is due to immaturity (young age) and how much is driving inexperience. If you pushed the minimum driving age up to 18 then age 18 drivers would be the ones with no driving experience. Though perhaps a longer permit time period (age 15-17, maybe?) would help with the experience side.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18320 on: August 01, 2017, 10:44:02 AM »
Part of me feels that the Dutch system isn't only about safety, but also about generating revenue with how expensive the tests are. I do have to say though I never saw so many car accidents until I moved to the US. This could of course also just be due to the increased amount of driving Americans do compared to the Dutch.

Driving in nearly all parts of the US is massively easier than in most European countries - most cities were built post the invention of cars and nearly all are designed around the convenience of drivers, not pedestrians or cyclists. There's a few places where that is not true (Manhattan, Boston, SF, probably others) but on the whole it is. If I drive between cities in the UK, I have to be alert at all times to what is going on in front, behind, to the side and make decisions constantly. On a US interstate, I put on cruise control and occasionally change lane.

Young men driving like idiots is the rule everywhere, of course. One of the reasons why the UK has such a good car accident rate is that the number of under-21s who drive is relatively low. Of course, that only works if there are ways for those people to get about that don't involve putting them in charge of a potentially lethal ton of metal moving at high speed.

I paid for my 17 year old to have driving lessons and he's passed his test, but reckons it's a redundant skill because by the time he needs a car, they will all be self-driving. We'll see, I guess.

mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18321 on: August 01, 2017, 11:17:48 AM »
I paid for my 17 year old to have driving lessons and he's passed his test, but reckons it's a redundant skill because by the time he needs a car, they will all be self-driving. We'll see, I guess.

In the long run I think your son is right, but I think his timeline is off by 15-30 years before it gets affordable.

MrMoogle

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18322 on: August 01, 2017, 12:22:19 PM »
I paid for my 17 year old to have driving lessons and he's passed his test, but reckons it's a redundant skill because by the time he needs a car, they will all be self-driving. We'll see, I guess.

In the long run I think your son is right, but I think his timeline is off by 15-30 years before it gets affordable.
If you look at the history of EVs/Hybrids, it took them about 30 years to get to consumers.  There were military vehicles with these capabilities in the 80's.  DARPA has been doing it's self driving vehicle challenges for 10 years or so now?  So it's probably 20 years away to get to consumers and another 5-10 before they're widespread.  Who knows though, but it's the best comparison I could come up with.

And yes, there were EVs and Hybrid, and even self driving vehicles before the 80s, just more experimental than successful.

mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18323 on: August 01, 2017, 12:38:42 PM »
I paid for my 17 year old to have driving lessons and he's passed his test, but reckons it's a redundant skill because by the time he needs a car, they will all be self-driving. We'll see, I guess.

In the long run I think your son is right, but I think his timeline is off by 15-30 years before it gets affordable.
If you look at the history of EVs/Hybrids, it took them about 30 years to get to consumers.  There were military vehicles with these capabilities in the 80's.  DARPA has been doing it's self driving vehicle challenges for 10 years or so now?  So it's probably 20 years away to get to consumers and another 5-10 before they're widespread.  Who knows though, but it's the best comparison I could come up with.

And yes, there were EVs and Hybrid, and even self driving vehicles before the 80s, just more experimental than successful.

Well, the self driving cars are already here--check out Tesla's autopilot. I'm thinking that in about 2-5 years, we'll see them in more cars--I'd expect BMW and Ford to have them out very soon. And in another 5-10 years after that, it will become mainstream for a new car. So that is 7-15 years before it is mainstream for a new car. Add in to that that the average age of a car on the road in the US is about 12 years, you can make the assumption that in 19-27 years, the self driving vehicles will become the majority.

Just a guess obviously. From an enthusiast standpoint, I'm not so crazy about it, but from "other" standpoints, I'm a huge fan--commuting, the elderly, the sick/disabled, etc.

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18324 on: August 01, 2017, 12:39:06 PM »
I paid for my 17 year old to have driving lessons and he's passed his test, but reckons it's a redundant skill because by the time he needs a car, they will all be self-driving. We'll see, I guess.

In the long run I think your son is right, but I think his timeline is off by 15-30 years before it gets affordable.

Eventually self-driving cars will probably the norm at some point in the future, but I agree it could take some time.

Looking at how fast the development of electric cars is going though, I wouldn't waste any lessons on trying to learn to drive a manual if  you have any difficulty doing that.

MrMoogle

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18325 on: August 01, 2017, 01:04:25 PM »
I paid for my 17 year old to have driving lessons and he's passed his test, but reckons it's a redundant skill because by the time he needs a car, they will all be self-driving. We'll see, I guess.

In the long run I think your son is right, but I think his timeline is off by 15-30 years before it gets affordable.
If you look at the history of EVs/Hybrids, it took them about 30 years to get to consumers.  There were military vehicles with these capabilities in the 80's.  DARPA has been doing it's self driving vehicle challenges for 10 years or so now?  So it's probably 20 years away to get to consumers and another 5-10 before they're widespread.  Who knows though, but it's the best comparison I could come up with.

And yes, there were EVs and Hybrid, and even self driving vehicles before the 80s, just more experimental than successful.

Well, the self driving cars are already here--check out Tesla's autopilot. I'm thinking that in about 2-5 years, we'll see them in more cars--I'd expect BMW and Ford to have them out very soon. And in another 5-10 years after that, it will become mainstream for a new car. So that is 7-15 years before it is mainstream for a new car. Add in to that that the average age of a car on the road in the US is about 12 years, you can make the assumption that in 19-27 years, the self driving vehicles will become the majority.

Just a guess obviously. From an enthusiast standpoint, I'm not so crazy about it, but from "other" standpoints, I'm a huge fan--commuting, the elderly, the sick/disabled, etc.
I think I remember seeing something about semis driving on an autopilot on interstates/highways in some states.  A human would remotely control it to get to the interstate, then put it on autopilot, and then drive another to the interstate.  The driver said he was in charge of like 10 different semis at any given time.  This isn't a full solution though, and it's not legal in all states, and not many semis are doing it.

In the 1970's a car called the Citicar was an electric and about 2000 were sold in the US.  So just because some are being sold doesn't mean they are ready to take off.  But your guess could be better than mine :)

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18326 on: August 01, 2017, 01:08:16 PM »
I just had a co-worker tell me about her car situation. She routinely leases cars, but tires of them after 1 year instead of finishing the lease. She's had an infinity, so unafraid of the luxury brands, but currently is in the middle of a series of Mazdas.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18327 on: August 01, 2017, 01:23:42 PM »
I just had a co-worker tell me about her car situation. She routinely leases cars, but tires of them after 1 year instead of finishing the lease. She's had an infinity, so unafraid of the luxury brands, but currently is in the middle of a series of Mazdas.

I'll never understand how some people think that perpetually renting a car is a good financial move.
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18328 on: August 01, 2017, 01:53:01 PM »
I just had a co-worker tell me about her car situation. She routinely leases cars, but tires of them after 1 year instead of finishing the lease. She's had an infinity, so unafraid of the luxury brands, but currently is in the middle of a series of Mazdas.

I'll never understand how some people think that perpetually renting a car is a good financial move.

I once asked a family member why they only lease instead of buy. Their answer was that if they planned to purchase a new car every 3 years (or whatever the term of the lease is), leasing is clearly the better option.

Why anyone would buy a new car that often is beyond me.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18329 on: August 01, 2017, 02:13:40 PM »
I just had a co-worker tell me about her car situation. She routinely leases cars, but tires of them after 1 year instead of finishing the lease. She's had an infinity, so unafraid of the luxury brands, but currently is in the middle of a series of Mazdas.

I'll never understand how some people think that perpetually renting a car is a good financial move.

I once asked a family member why they only lease instead of buy. Their answer was that if they planned to purchase a new car every 3 years (or whatever the term of the lease is), leasing is clearly the better option.

Why anyone would buy a new car that often is beyond me.

The payments are easier to budget for than the emergency fund for big issues. The idea of "just keep putting the car payment into a maintenance fund" doesn't happen for most people. Good in theory. Doesn't happen in practice for most.

Ironically, that is how I justify 3 cars though. If one goes down, I can take my time to fix it on my own.

cheapass

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18330 on: August 01, 2017, 02:22:19 PM »
I once asked a family member why they only lease instead of buy. Their answer was that if they planned to purchase a new car every 3 years (or whatever the term of the lease is), leasing is clearly the better option.

Why anyone would buy a new car that often is beyond me.

lol I suppose when you compare it to the absolute worst decision you can make, yeah leasing probably isn't so bad.

The same rationalization can be applied toward anything though. "I was going to buy a $10,000 prada but I bought a $5,000 louis voitton instead... I'm so financially savvy!"
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18331 on: August 01, 2017, 02:40:15 PM »
I just had a co-worker tell me about her car situation. She routinely leases cars, but tires of them after 1 year instead of finishing the lease. She's had an infinity, so unafraid of the luxury brands, but currently is in the middle of a series of Mazdas.

I'll never understand how some people think that perpetually renting a car is a good financial move.

I once asked a family member why they only lease instead of buy. Their answer was that if they planned to purchase a new car every 3 years (or whatever the term of the lease is), leasing is clearly the better option.

Why anyone would buy a new car that often is beyond me.

The payments are easier to budget for than the emergency fund for big issues. The idea of "just keep putting the car payment into a maintenance fund" doesn't happen for most people. Good in theory. Doesn't happen in practice for most.

Ironically, that is how I justify 3 cars though. If one goes down, I can take my time to fix it on my own.

Yes, the argument that I've heard from people 'after 3 years, they're starting to cost money' and that's why they choose to buy or lease a new vehicle. A regular car payment doesn't feel like a 'cost' while a $500 repair bill does feel like that.

Along the same lines I have a coworker who chose a specific type of health insurance because it would reimburse him for the cost of certain medication his kid used. The medication isn't expensive at all, about 40/month and tax deductible, and picking a significantly more expensive insurance for his entire family cost him probably 3 x as much. His logic: "well, that's just the montly insurance payment that's going to be more expensive. You don't notice that. It's a lot more expensive to pay 3 months worth of medication in the pharmacy" .

I know what he earns, because I'm the bookkeeper, and I know his wife has a job that I can't imagine is paid badly. I'm kind of shocked that anyone with such a high income has such a cash flow problem that paying 100 in a pharmarcy every couple of months is an actual problem. His income alone is higher than my partner's and mine combined and we would have absolutely no problem paying a bill like that a couple of times a year.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18332 on: August 01, 2017, 05:34:29 PM »
A coworker just posted, asking for advice on how much to contribute to an HSA if you don't ever go to the dr. Despite getting several answers all saying "the max!", outlining reasons like tax free $$ you can invest for retirement, a health care buffer in case something big happens, health care $$ you can use 20 years from now, potentially lower tax income bracket, etc etc etc - the response was "HR just told me the company will contribute their $1500 regardless of if I contribute. Since I just finished paying off a huge hospital bill (thought they NEVER went to the dr?!), I'm not going to contribute anything. " <face palm>.  High earner with working spouse, 2 small children. I would love to know how many people contribute to our company 401k or ESPP?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18333 on: August 01, 2017, 05:56:09 PM »
Speaking of co-workers and cars, my coworker mentioned to me he is looking for a new car, as his current car has almost 20000km on it "cause that's about the time where you can trade and break even, almost like renting a car for two years, give it back with what you've paid off "

I ask him the type of car and it turns out its the exact same make/model as current car he just wants this one in a different colour. This new car will be the third car of this model but he wants this one in this colour as its limited edition and the last of its kind to be made in Australia before they start getting made off shore. He has had his current car for 16 months and the one before that was owned for about a year.

But the crazier thing is that because this is a limited edition special car he wont be able to drive it that much as he wants it kept in great condition, so he will need to buy another every day car. Bringing his total to three cars, plus the car his wife has.

And then he started talking about how he will need to build/buy a house with a bigger garage to fit the four cars.


mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18334 on: August 01, 2017, 09:53:08 PM »
Speaking of co-workers and cars, my coworker mentioned to me he is looking for a new car, as his current car has almost 20000km on it "cause that's about the time where you can trade and break even, almost like renting a car for two years, give it back with what you've paid off "

I ask him the type of car and it turns out its the exact same make/model as current car he just wants this one in a different colour. This new car will be the third car of this model but he wants this one in this colour as its limited edition and the last of its kind to be made in Australia before they start getting made off shore. He has had his current car for 16 months and the one before that was owned for about a year.

But the crazier thing is that because this is a limited edition special car he wont be able to drive it that much as he wants it kept in great condition, so he will need to buy another every day car. Bringing his total to three cars, plus the car his wife has.

And then he started talking about how he will need to build/buy a house with a bigger garage to fit the four cars.

Hope he enjoys the new Commodore.

nnls

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18335 on: August 01, 2017, 10:14:07 PM »
Speaking of co-workers and cars, my coworker mentioned to me he is looking for a new car, as his current car has almost 20000km on it "cause that's about the time where you can trade and break even, almost like renting a car for two years, give it back with what you've paid off "

I ask him the type of car and it turns out its the exact same make/model as current car he just wants this one in a different colour. This new car will be the third car of this model but he wants this one in this colour as its limited edition and the last of its kind to be made in Australia before they start getting made off shore. He has had his current car for 16 months and the one before that was owned for about a year.

But the crazier thing is that because this is a limited edition special car he wont be able to drive it that much as he wants it kept in great condition, so he will need to buy another every day car. Bringing his total to three cars, plus the car his wife has.

And then he started talking about how he will need to build/buy a house with a bigger garage to fit the four cars.

Hope he enjoys the new Commodore.

I am sure he will, he has liked his last 4 commodores

frugledoc

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18336 on: August 02, 2017, 02:17:56 AM »
I paid for my 17 year old to have driving lessons and he's passed his test, but reckons it's a redundant skill because by the time he needs a car, they will all be self-driving. We'll see, I guess.

In the long run I think your son is right, but I think his timeline is off by 15-30 years before it gets affordable.
If you look at the history of EVs/Hybrids, it took them about 30 years to get to consumers.  There were military vehicles with these capabilities in the 80's.  DARPA has been doing it's self driving vehicle challenges for 10 years or so now?  So it's probably 20 years away to get to consumers and another 5-10 before they're widespread.  Who knows though, but it's the best comparison I could come up with.

And yes, there were EVs and Hybrid, and even self driving vehicles before the 80s, just more experimental than successful.

Well, the self driving cars are already here--check out Tesla's autopilot. I'm thinking that in about 2-5 years, we'll see them in more cars--I'd expect BMW and Ford to have them out very soon. And in another 5-10 years after that, it will become mainstream for a new car. So that is 7-15 years before it is mainstream for a new car. Add in to that that the average age of a car on the road in the US is about 12 years, you can make the assumption that in 19-27 years, the self driving vehicles will become the majority.

Just a guess obviously. From an enthusiast standpoint, I'm not so crazy about it, but from "other" standpoints, I'm a huge fan--commuting, the elderly, the sick/disabled, etc.

I'm not buying another car until I can get a self driving one in the UK. 

I've got a Skoda Octavia Diesel with 74k miles, should easily do 200k with maintenance. 

UK gov is banning new sales of petrol and diesel cars from 2040 but don't think it will last until then.

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18337 on: August 02, 2017, 03:11:59 AM »
I paid for my 17 year old to have driving lessons and he's passed his test, but reckons it's a redundant skill because by the time he needs a car, they will all be self-driving. We'll see, I guess.

In the long run I think your son is right, but I think his timeline is off by 15-30 years before it gets affordable.
If you look at the history of EVs/Hybrids, it took them about 30 years to get to consumers.  There were military vehicles with these capabilities in the 80's.  DARPA has been doing it's self driving vehicle challenges for 10 years or so now?  So it's probably 20 years away to get to consumers and another 5-10 before they're widespread.  Who knows though, but it's the best comparison I could come up with.

And yes, there were EVs and Hybrid, and even self driving vehicles before the 80s, just more experimental than successful.

Well, the self driving cars are already here--check out Tesla's autopilot. I'm thinking that in about 2-5 years, we'll see them in more cars--I'd expect BMW and Ford to have them out very soon. And in another 5-10 years after that, it will become mainstream for a new car. So that is 7-15 years before it is mainstream for a new car. Add in to that that the average age of a car on the road in the US is about 12 years, you can make the assumption that in 19-27 years, the self driving vehicles will become the majority.

Just a guess obviously. From an enthusiast standpoint, I'm not so crazy about it, but from "other" standpoints, I'm a huge fan--commuting, the elderly, the sick/disabled, etc.

I'm not buying another car until I can get a self driving one in the UK. 

I've got a Skoda Octavia Diesel with 74k miles, should easily do 200k with maintenance. 

UK gov is banning new sales of petrol and diesel cars from 2040 but don't think it will last until then.

I think that's going to happen in a few years. If you're buying a new petrol / diesel car right now, you should be prepared to drive it until it breaks down beyond repair and not rely on the car keeping its value in the future.

With the growing amount of affordable electric cars available, the growing amount of people that have solar panels their roof (especially in new developments it's basiscally standard nowadays) and the growing availability of public charging stations, electric cars are going to be so common in a few years that the value of used petrol and diesel cars is going to plummet. At that point, banks and lease companies will probably stop funding loans and lease contracts for petrol and diesel cars which means the sales of new petrol and diesel cars are going to plummet too, which in turn will probably scare the cash buyer into buying electric too. I see this happening within 5-10 years from now. I think by 2030 new petrol and diesel cars will be a thing of the past, there'll simply not be any market for them anymore.

marty998

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18338 on: August 02, 2017, 05:59:39 AM »
Speaking of co-workers and cars, my coworker mentioned to me he is looking for a new car, as his current car has almost 20000km on it "cause that's about the time where you can trade and break even, almost like renting a car for two years, give it back with what you've paid off "

I ask him the type of car and it turns out its the exact same make/model as current car he just wants this one in a different colour. This new car will be the third car of this model but he wants this one in this colour as its limited edition and the last of its kind to be made in Australia before they start getting made off shore. He has had his current car for 16 months and the one before that was owned for about a year.

But the crazier thing is that because this is a limited edition special car he wont be able to drive it that much as he wants it kept in great condition, so he will need to buy another every day car. Bringing his total to three cars, plus the car his wife has.

And then he started talking about how he will need to build/buy a house with a bigger garage to fit the four cars.

Hope he enjoys the new Commodore.

I am sure he will, he has liked his last 4 commodores

Oh my god 4x Green slips, 4x regos, 4x insurances...

I'm in pain just thinking about that.

marktbaldridge

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18339 on: August 02, 2017, 06:30:37 AM »
Overheard at Work:

"They say you should be saving at least 15% for retirement, but I want to have fun now when I'm young! Not when I'm old and can't do anything."

RWD

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18340 on: August 02, 2017, 06:55:53 AM »
Overheard at Work:

"They say you should be saving at least 15% for retirement, but I want to have fun now when I'm young! Not when I'm old and can't do anything."

Wow... I hear this mentality a lot. But at only 15% savings you're not really saving to have "fun" when you're old. You're saving just enough so that you can buy food and keep a roof over your head. You'd think that would take priority over fun now...

cheapass

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18341 on: August 02, 2017, 07:52:29 AM »
Overheard at Work:

"They say you should be saving at least 15% for retirement, but I want to have fun now when I'm young! Not when I'm old and can't do anything."

Wow... I hear this mentality a lot. But at only 15% savings you're not really saving to have "fun" when you're old. You're saving just enough so that you can buy food and keep a roof over your head. You'd think that would take priority over fun now...

Well everyone knows that it's impossible to have any fun on only 85% of your salary, whether you make $30K or $100K. You have to spend at least 100%, maybe more, for fun to occur.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 09:43:43 AM by cheapass »
Every single decision you make with money either shortens or lengthens your working career.

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18342 on: August 02, 2017, 10:39:00 AM »
Overheard at Work:

"They say you should be saving at least 15% for retirement, but I want to have fun now when I'm young! Not when I'm old and can't do anything."

Wow... I hear this mentality a lot. But at only 15% savings you're not really saving to have "fun" when you're old. You're saving just enough so that you can buy food and keep a roof over your head. You'd think that would take priority over fun now...

Well everyone knows that it's impossible to have any fun on only 85% of your salary, whether you make $30K or $100K. You have to spend at least 100%, maybe more, for fun to occur.
To have fun, you need to take a credit. It is impossible to have fun without the nerve tingling of the worries of never being able to pay it back!

BDWW

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18343 on: August 02, 2017, 11:01:50 AM »
Overheard at Work:

"They say you should be saving at least 15% for retirement, but I want to have fun now when I'm young! Not when I'm old and can't do anything."

Wow... I hear this mentality a lot. But at only 15% savings you're not really saving to have "fun" when you're old. You're saving just enough so that you can buy food and keep a roof over your head. You'd think that would take priority over fun now...

If you actually save 15% from say 25 or even 30 until traditional retirement age 65, that should provide you with much more than a bare bones* retirement. The trouble is most people don't even save 15% or even 10%.

*Some basic numbers
$50000 salary at 15% for 40 years at 6%** return ~ 1.1 million. Add in social security and that should definitely replace your pre-retirement income. 
**Conservative, but discounts inflation, and likely your income probably increases at a least a portion of inflation.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18344 on: August 02, 2017, 12:15:47 PM »
Overheard at Work:

"They say you should be saving at least 15% for retirement, but I want to have fun now when I'm young! Not when I'm old and can't do anything."

Wow... I hear this mentality a lot. But at only 15% savings you're not really saving to have "fun" when you're old. You're saving just enough so that you can buy food and keep a roof over your head. You'd think that would take priority over fun now...

If you actually save 15% from say 25 or even 30 until traditional retirement age 65, that should provide you with much more than a bare bones* retirement. The trouble is most people don't even save 15% or even 10%.

*Some basic numbers
$50000 salary at 15% for 40 years at 6%** return ~ 1.1 million. Add in social security and that should definitely replace your pre-retirement income. 
**Conservative, but discounts inflation, and likely your income probably increases at a least a portion of inflation.

I mean, how did people think 15% became a rule of thumb in the first place?  It's not pulled out of thin air

gooki

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18345 on: August 03, 2017, 02:57:10 AM »
10% is the rule of thumb because Monica on Friends said so.
Follow me on my journey to FI.

nnls

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18346 on: August 03, 2017, 03:05:27 AM »
Speaking of co-workers and cars, my coworker mentioned to me he is looking for a new car, as his current car has almost 20000km on it "cause that's about the time where you can trade and break even, almost like renting a car for two years, give it back with what you've paid off "

I ask him the type of car and it turns out its the exact same make/model as current car he just wants this one in a different colour. This new car will be the third car of this model but he wants this one in this colour as its limited edition and the last of its kind to be made in Australia before they start getting made off shore. He has had his current car for 16 months and the one before that was owned for about a year.

But the crazier thing is that because this is a limited edition special car he wont be able to drive it that much as he wants it kept in great condition, so he will need to buy another every day car. Bringing his total to three cars, plus the car his wife has.

And then he started talking about how he will need to build/buy a house with a bigger garage to fit the four cars.

Hope he enjoys the new Commodore.

I am sure he will, he has liked his last 4 commodores

Oh my god 4x Green slips, 4x regos, 4x insurances...

I'm in pain just thinking about that.

he only has a maximum of three cars at any one time, plus his missus car. so I suppose that is 4, but i feel like maybe one of them isnt street legal anyway, its for the drags, or maybe that's an additional car?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18347 on: August 03, 2017, 10:45:02 AM »
This story is kind of an eye roll followed by a positive end... a now former co-worker just took a sweet new gig where he gets a company vehicle that he is allowed to use as a personal vehicle. As in, it's considered part of the compensation package. He can take it on vacation if he'd like. I mentioned to him that my husband has something similar (can't take it on vacation, but does get to drive it home and is allowed to use it for local errands) and it works out great for us as it allows us to only have one car. Former co-worker looks at me like I'm crazy and says, "but I like my truck! I have to keep it...." and so on. Note that work vehicle is also a truck. That is brand new and nicer then his personal truck. And will be replaced every 5 years. All maintenance & fuel covered by the company. I shrugged and moved on thinking, "hell, we might figure out how to be a no car family if Mr. Hudsoncat had that kind of work vehicle!"

The fun part of the story is this: Current co-worker was part of the conversation. Turns out the convo made wheels start turning for her. Her husband has a similar situation as mine, but it never occurred to them to look at how much they actually use the second vehicle. They did the math and figured out his car was worth more than they owe on it (At worst should break even, might even come out a little ahead with the right buyer!) and they hardly ever drive it. So they are now looking to sell it, be a one car (+ work vehicle family) and have plans on how to invest the money from the former car payment + insurance.

Uturn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18348 on: August 03, 2017, 12:46:14 PM »
I'm amazed that I have been able to out earn my stupidity.   Many years ago I had a job that came with a company car with unlimited personal use, even gas was company paid.  It was a nice looking, comfortable Buick sedan.  But, being young and dumb, I wanted a shiny new 4x4.  You know, for those harsh Dallas winters and non-paved roads.  Part of the criteria that I used to justify the purchase (actually a lease) was just think of the resale value of a low mileage truck!  All the miles are going on the company car!
It's not about money, it's about mindset

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #18349 on: August 04, 2017, 05:17:20 AM »

The payments are easier to budget for than the emergency fund for big issues. The idea of "just keep putting the car payment into a maintenance fund" doesn't happen for most people. Good in theory. Doesn't happen in practice for most.

Ironically, that is how I justify 3 cars though. If one goes down, I can take my time to fix it on my own.

Before I found MMM I used to lease my car. I stopped doing this just under 18 months ago, bought a used car outright, and as per the advice of Dave Ramsey I put the same amount of money aside each month. This sinking fund has paid for the servicing, maintenance, insurance and road fund licence on both of our cars. I am now getting to the stage where there is more money in there than I will need for the year, so will transfer a chunk of it to my investment account soon. Oh, and I have an emergency fund that could cover the cost of a used car as well :)

It's good advice if people are willing to use it!