Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 6416706 times)

WildJager

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15750 on: November 10, 2016, 01:25:35 PM »
I'm a bit behind in this thread, so sorry if this OhaW story doesn't contribute to whatever the hell the current foam is.

I was hanging around playing poker with my boss and some co-workers before a training exercise one evening.  The discussion turned somehow turned into my boss razzing me about being such a cheapass for some of my behaviors (biking to work, older phone with no data, I drive an old car, all this even though my wife and I are DINKS, etc). 

"You probably have a massive pile of cash or something."
I didn't want to sound like a dick and just confirm as it was all in good fun, so I said, "Nah, I just blow it all on hookers and, of course, my massive gambling addiction."

Fast forward to some time later, I was sitting around with said boss and some of the same co-workers. This was during one of those times where the lottery was massive so everyone was playing (except for me... tightass).  To the one, they were all in agreement that if they won, they would immediately quit and walk out the door.  They came to the conclusion that $1MM would be enough.  I was the brunt of the joke that I would be the only one left running the office because I hadn't participated in the lottery with them (they went in together with the intent of sharing the winnings if anyone won).

I smiled to myself because, at the time, our stash was just shy of the magical $1MM they were throwing around as the freedom floor.

It was all in jest because we all had a good working relationship, but a bit sad that they knew the solution to freedom but basically wouldn't degrade themselves with not having the latest, shiniest stuff.  Oh well, all you can do is lead by example and let the chips fall where they may.  We all have our priorities.

TexasRunner

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15751 on: November 10, 2016, 01:45:00 PM »
I'm a bit behind in this thread, so sorry if this OhaW story doesn't contribute to whatever the hell the current foam is.

I was hanging around playing poker with my boss and some co-workers before a training exercise one evening.  The discussion turned somehow turned into my boss razzing me about being such a cheapass for some of my behaviors (biking to work, older phone with no data, I drive an old car, all this even though my wife and I are DINKS, etc). 

"You probably have a massive pile of cash or something."
I didn't want to sound like a dick and just confirm as it was all in good fun, so I said, "Nah, I just blow it all on hookers and, of course, my massive gambling addiction."

Fast forward to some time later, I was sitting around with said boss and some of the same co-workers. This was during one of those times where the lottery was massive so everyone was playing (except for me... tightass).  To the one, they were all in agreement that if they won, they would immediately quit and walk out the door.  They came to the conclusion that $1MM would be enough.  I was the brunt of the joke that I would be the only one left running the office because I hadn't participated in the lottery with them (they went in together with the intent of sharing the winnings if anyone won).

I smiled to myself because, at the time, our stash was just shy of the magical $1MM they were throwing around as the freedom floor.

It was all in jest because we all had a good working relationship, but a bit sad that they knew the solution to freedom but basically wouldn't degrade themselves with not having the latest, shiniest stuff.  Oh well, all you can do is lead by example and let the chips fall where they may.  We all have our priorities.

I highly doubt I would have been able to show the same level of restraint... :)  "Ohhh, it only takes a million bucks?  I guess I'm out next month boss! [Silently Smirk]"
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15752 on: November 10, 2016, 02:24:37 PM »
I have a coworker who's constantly having money troubles. She and her husband are not high earners, and from what I gather they don't budget or communicate well about money, nor do they have joint accounts. She used to shop at Walmart once a day, to pick up anything she needed or just cheap stuff she wanted. Now her husband has been out of a job for a while so she has had to quit that habit. One day she told me she was depressed because her checking account only had $10 in it.

The latest problem, however, is medical bills. She made the mistake of not checking whether her spinal injections were in network or not, and they weren't. So now she owes just shy of $10,000 that she really can't afford. She's hoping to refinance her mortgage and roll that debt into it. I've tried giving helpful advice before, like suggesting areas they could cut expenses, but she has a reason why she can't make a sacrifice for any scenario.

I'm not really posting this to shame her bad decisions, because when I see her, I see someone who's been given a tough break and doesn't have the education or intelligence to always make the right decisions. And I don't like our whole in-network/out-of-network system anyway. Hearing her talk about her problems makes me realize how lucky I am, even if it's just being lucky enough to have the ability to make good choices. Sometimes I think about what her reaction would be if I told her that my husband and I have an excess of about 3 to 4,000 dollars each month after our bills are paid (which right now we are using to pay off student loans and save for a car). She probably wouldn't look at me the same again.

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15753 on: November 10, 2016, 02:29:17 PM »
I was the brunt of the joke that I would be the only one left running the office because I hadn't participated in the lottery with them (they went in together with the intent of sharing the winnings if anyone won).


My response would be, "I guess that means I'm getting a raise and a corner office."

It's been a while but if anyone in the office wanted to do an office pool, I probably would contribute mostly for the sake of camaraderie. A dollar or two isn't something I'm going to miss and it's not like they buy them ever, it's been 2 years that I can recall anyone mentioning wanting to buy them, but then again there's only 5 other people here. 

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15754 on: November 10, 2016, 03:05:46 PM »
Not directly relevant, but incredibly frustrating, and I need to vent somewhere:
-I need to get a yes or no on a project, and I need a tentative answer before tomorrow so I can tell the people I will or won't cooperate with if we should spend anymore time on this.
-my closest boss supports the project, and has taken it to her boss
-my boss' boss wants to postpone the decision until next year
-my boss' boss' boss wants a decision to be made, and has put it on the list of stuff that will be presented for the board this month. I know this only because his secretary asked me to proofread the agenda. The agenda has now been posted on the company webpage.
-I have told my boss that the project is on the agenda, but I don't know if she has reached her boss and informed her.
-tonight I got a mail from boss'boss that I should tell my partners tomorrow that the decision has been postponed. But it is still on the online agenda, and boss'boss did not mention this issue. There are also politicians involved in this, and the case can not simply be pulled if they have taken an interest.

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WildJager

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15755 on: November 10, 2016, 03:07:54 PM »
I was the brunt of the joke that I would be the only one left running the office because I hadn't participated in the lottery with them (they went in together with the intent of sharing the winnings if anyone won).


My response would be, "I guess that means I'm getting a raise and a corner office."

It's been a while but if anyone in the office wanted to do an office pool, I probably would contribute mostly for the sake of camaraderie. A dollar or two isn't something I'm going to miss and it's not like they buy them ever, it's been 2 years that I can recall anyone mentioning wanting to buy them, but then again there's only 5 other people here.

I contributed a token amount the first day they wanted to do it.  But this was like the third day in a row during the fervor last year when no one was winning and the dollar amounts were getting crazy (US, national powerball or whatever it's called).   

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15756 on: November 10, 2016, 05:48:39 PM »
They came to the conclusion that $1MM would be enough.

I'm shocked.  Most people think 10MM wouldn't be enough.

I think 1MM is enough for 40k at a 4% WR.

But with their apparent spend levels, I don't think 1MM would be enough for them.
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dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15757 on: November 10, 2016, 06:19:11 PM »
Yeah, my husband has a job lined after graduation in June and our income will go up 133%. While I'm not looking to go crazy, we are excited to make some splurges as a celebration for getting through all this. Maybe that's not very mustachian of us, but I really don't care.

My stance on windfalls/raises is somewhere above MMM's "one burrito" rule but generally well below the sucka standard. Live a little, but don't live all at once. :D

I'm unfamiliar with this "one burrito" rule, would you be so kind as to let me know what it is.

Quote
For a windfall over $5000, you may get yourself one gourmet coffee or a Chipotle Burrito, but that’s about it.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/09/20/wealth-advice-that-should-be-obvious/

Nice I like it! I remember hearing something along these lines.

Fine, but I'm getting centuple guac

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15758 on: November 10, 2016, 06:21:22 PM »
They came to the conclusion that $1MM would be enough.

I'm shocked.  Most people think 10MM wouldn't be enough.

I think 1MM is enough for 40k at a 4% WR.

But with their apparent spend levels, I don't think 1MM would be enough for them.

Yeah, I was confused how 1 MM would be enough, but they wouldn't be able to lower their spending to the point where they could save 1 MM.  Then I realized, they are really thinking about FU money -- quit work, spend it all in 5 years, and then reapply.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15759 on: November 10, 2016, 07:44:28 PM »
At after work drinks the other night one of the apprentices was complaining how hard it is to save money, about five minutes later a food order arrived for him of burger and chips, which he told me he orders most nights.

This is made worse by the fact our work supplies us free breakfast, lunch and dinner on days we work, but he said he didnt like any of the free food on offer so would rather pay $14 every night.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15760 on: November 10, 2016, 10:20:36 PM »
Yeah, my husband has a job lined after graduation in June and our income will go up 133%. While I'm not looking to go crazy, we are excited to make some splurges as a celebration for getting through all this. Maybe that's not very mustachian of us, but I really don't care.

My stance on windfalls/raises is somewhere above MMM's "one burrito" rule but generally well below the sucka standard. Live a little, but don't live all at once. :D

I think he recently bought a brand new car, so the terms of the rule have apparently changed.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15761 on: November 10, 2016, 11:35:12 PM »
Yeah, my husband has a job lined after graduation in June and our income will go up 133%. While I'm not looking to go crazy, we are excited to make some splurges as a celebration for getting through all this. Maybe that's not very mustachian of us, but I really don't care.

My stance on windfalls/raises is somewhere above MMM's "one burrito" rule but generally well below the sucka standard. Live a little, but don't live all at once. :D

I'm unfamiliar with this "one burrito" rule, would you be so kind as to let me know what it is.

Quote
For a windfall over $5000, you may get yourself one gourmet coffee or a Chipotle Burrito, but that’s about it.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/09/20/wealth-advice-that-should-be-obvious/

Nice I like it! I remember hearing something along these lines.

My income went up 25 per cent when I started a new job last month. We celebrated with dinner at home, just splurged a little on ingredients.

My husband was disappointed he didn't "get to take" me out, but I was content. The new job just strengthened my sense of being comfortable in my own skin, and that means a low-fuss celebration. It's freeing.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15762 on: November 11, 2016, 08:52:32 AM »
We're thinking of taking the week between his graduation and the new job start date and spending it at an air bnb by the beach within driving distance. With his new job, he will only get 5 days vacation through the end of the year so we thought we would enjoy it while we could. Pricing it out, we're looking at under $1,000 and that's if we splurge on restaurants instead of cooking at the house or rent a longboard.

More than a burrito, but still well within a reasonable range. Not to mention way below what most mustachians have in their travel budget. ;)

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15763 on: November 11, 2016, 08:59:47 AM »
At work today, colleague saw I'd been shopping in M&S and asked if I'd spent over £35, because then 'you get to buy the advent calendar'.

They have this beauty advent calendar, and you have the 'privilege' of buying it for £35, once you've spent £35. So they are just doubling your spend. They claim this calendar is worth £250 (has 24 x beauty products inside). I think that is definitely BS.

I 'fessed up that I'd only spent £30 and couldn't get the advent calendar 'because I can't afford it'. (True, but also, why would anyone buy that...)

She looked at me like I was crazy. 'But you only needed to spend another fiver'. Like I'd just wasted such an opportunity.

TexasRunner

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15764 on: November 11, 2016, 09:04:26 AM »
She looked at me like I was crazy. 'But you only needed to spend another fiver'. Like I'd just wasted such an opportunity.

Sunk cost fallacy sucks doesn't it.  Nice when you no longer drink that coolaid.  :)
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15765 on: November 11, 2016, 09:26:20 AM »
At work today, colleague saw I'd been shopping in M&S and asked if I'd spent over £35, because then 'you get to buy the advent calendar'.

They have this beauty advent calendar, and you have the 'privilege' of buying it for £35, once you've spent £35. So they are just doubling your spend. They claim this calendar is worth £250 (has 24 x beauty products inside). I think that is definitely BS.

I 'fessed up that I'd only spent £30 and couldn't get the advent calendar 'because I can't afford it'. (True, but also, why would anyone buy that...)

She looked at me like I was crazy. 'But you only needed to spend another fiver'. Like I'd just wasted such an opportunity.

Can't she add? It seems to me you'd have had to spend at least another forty: the £35 for the cost of the item, plus the five more to qualify for the purchase, plus whatever taxes apply.
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frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15766 on: November 11, 2016, 09:27:57 AM »
At work today, colleague saw I'd been shopping in M&S and asked if I'd spent over £35, because then 'you get to buy the advent calendar'.

They have this beauty advent calendar, and you have the 'privilege' of buying it for £35, once you've spent £35. So they are just doubling your spend. They claim this calendar is worth £250 (has 24 x beauty products inside). I think that is definitely BS.

I 'fessed up that I'd only spent £30 and couldn't get the advent calendar 'because I can't afford it'. (True, but also, why would anyone buy that...)

She looked at me like I was crazy. 'But you only needed to spend another fiver'. Like I'd just wasted such an opportunity.

Can't she add? It seems to me you'd have had to spend at least another forty: the £35 for the cost of the item, plus the five more to qualify for the purchase, plus whatever taxes apply.

Pff, if you are a total pleb and can be satisfied with only one.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15767 on: November 11, 2016, 09:34:32 AM »
At work today, colleague saw I'd been shopping in M&S and asked if I'd spent over £35, because then 'you get to buy the advent calendar'.

They have this beauty advent calendar, and you have the 'privilege' of buying it for £35, once you've spent £35. So they are just doubling your spend. They claim this calendar is worth £250 (has 24 x beauty products inside). I think that is definitely BS.

I 'fessed up that I'd only spent £30 and couldn't get the advent calendar 'because I can't afford it'. (True, but also, why would anyone buy that...)

She looked at me like I was crazy. 'But you only needed to spend another fiver'. Like I'd just wasted such an opportunity.

Can't she add? It seems to me you'd have had to spend at least another forty: the £35 for the cost of the item, plus the five more to qualify for the purchase, plus whatever taxes apply.

Pff, if you are a total pleb and can be satisfied with only one.

Which is why it's "at least" another forty.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15768 on: November 11, 2016, 10:39:21 AM »
The latest problem, however, is medical bills. She made the mistake of not checking whether her spinal injections were in network or not, and they weren't. So now she owes just shy of $10,000 that she really can't afford. She's hoping to refinance her mortgage and roll that debt into it. I've tried giving helpful advice before, like suggesting areas they could cut expenses, but she has a reason why she can't make a sacrifice for any scenario.
i work in a hospital and I see this so often. Pt's come in and don't know which hospitals thier insurance does and doesn't cover, what procedures they need pre-approval for etc.
Always make sure you are using in network providers and check if you need pre-approval for procedures or surgery.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15769 on: November 11, 2016, 11:02:47 AM »
The latest problem, however, is medical bills. She made the mistake of not checking whether her spinal injections were in network or not, and they weren't. So now she owes just shy of $10,000 that she really can't afford. She's hoping to refinance her mortgage and roll that debt into it. I've tried giving helpful advice before, like suggesting areas they could cut expenses, but she has a reason why she can't make a sacrifice for any scenario.
i work in a hospital and I see this so often. Pt's come in and don't know which hospitals thier insurance does and doesn't cover, what procedures they need pre-approval for etc.
Always make sure you are using in network providers and check if you need pre-approval for procedures or surgery.

It sounds so easy when you say it like that, but the insurance companies make it difficult to figure out who is in network on purpose, knowing that if you screw up, they saved money. And then when they reject your claims, you don't know if you screwed up the difficult process or if they are just lying.

My insurance co's website lists thousands of doctors as "in network" that they won't pay for. They use different terminology to indicate which doctors are actually covered, and "in network" means something else. Don't tell me they didn't make that confusing on purpose! Almost everyone in my office has ended up with medical bills because the first time they needed some kind of urgent care they didn't realize "in network" meant "not really covered."

I don't blame anyone for making this kind of mistake. It just plain sucks that we have to pit ourselves against giant insurance companies and their lawyers and shareholders when we are desperate, hurting and sick.
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frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15770 on: November 11, 2016, 11:22:09 AM »
The latest problem, however, is medical bills. She made the mistake of not checking whether her spinal injections were in network or not, and they weren't. So now she owes just shy of $10,000 that she really can't afford. She's hoping to refinance her mortgage and roll that debt into it. I've tried giving helpful advice before, like suggesting areas they could cut expenses, but she has a reason why she can't make a sacrifice for any scenario.
i work in a hospital and I see this so often. Pt's come in and don't know which hospitals thier insurance does and doesn't cover, what procedures they need pre-approval for etc.
Always make sure you are using in network providers and check if you need pre-approval for procedures or surgery.

It sounds so easy when you say it like that, but the insurance companies make it difficult to figure out who is in network on purpose, knowing that if you screw up, they saved money. And then when they reject your claims, you don't know if you screwed up the difficult process or if they are just lying.

My insurance co's website lists thousands of doctors as "in network" that they won't pay for. They use different terminology to indicate which doctors are actually covered, and "in network" means something else. Don't tell me they didn't make that confusing on purpose! Almost everyone in my office has ended up with medical bills because the first time they needed some kind of urgent care they didn't realize "in network" meant "not really covered."

I don't blame anyone for making this kind of mistake. It just plain sucks that we have to pit ourselves against giant insurance companies and their lawyers and shareholders when we are desperate, hurting and sick.

My wife recently had some dental work done, and we went round and round with the dentist office and the insurance company.  You would think it should be crystal clear exactly what is covered and under what circumstances it is covered, because after all they are just going to fill out the bill with medical codes and send it to the insurance company.  Some person at the insurance company is not going to get our bill, review the codes, and then just decide on a whim which ones are covered or not.  Granted I don't have any idea how the insurance industry actually works on a detailed level, but I cannot imagine they don't have it clearly defined which codes are covered and which codes are not for our particular plan. 

In the end the answer given to us was just have the procedures done and have the dentist submit the bill.  That was literally the only way to find out what portion the insurance company would cover.  They could not check without the actual bill being mailed to them after the procedure was done.  This was not an emergency surgery, so we spent several weeks trying to figure it out. 

Thankfully we are mustachian and have piles of cash saved up in the event they are needed for dental work or something similar, but it's frustrating as hell to deal with an insurance company and their incompetence.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15771 on: November 11, 2016, 11:32:45 AM »
At work today, colleague saw I'd been shopping in M&S and asked if I'd spent over £35, because then 'you get to buy the advent calendar'.

They have this beauty advent calendar, and you have the 'privilege' of buying it for £35, once you've spent £35. So they are just doubling your spend. They claim this calendar is worth £250 (has 24 x beauty products inside). I think that is definitely BS.

I 'fessed up that I'd only spent £30 and couldn't get the advent calendar 'because I can't afford it'. (True, but also, why would anyone buy that...)

She looked at me like I was crazy. 'But you only needed to spend another fiver'. Like I'd just wasted such an opportunity.

Can't she add? It seems to me you'd have had to spend at least another forty: the £35 for the cost of the item, plus the five more to qualify for the purchase, plus whatever taxes apply.

To be fair it's not exactly mustachian but she's not being as much of a moron as you think. 
Those promotional advent deals can be a bargain but there's a marketing angle to it (my wife is works in purchasing in the cosmetics industry).

It has become fairly common practice in the last few years to sell those advent calendars with small jars of creams and lotions at near cost price in the run up to Christmas, the hope being that the customer likes the products and goes on to either
a) Treat themselves to full size products, because Christmas
b) Thinks of the full size products when family / friends ask them what they would like for Christmas

I can't remember the exact percentage but my wife did tell me that by selling a limited number last year they increased like for like sales of the full size products by a significant amount.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15772 on: November 11, 2016, 12:39:33 PM »
At work today, colleague saw I'd been shopping in M&S and asked if I'd spent over £35, because then 'you get to buy the advent calendar'.

They have this beauty advent calendar, and you have the 'privilege' of buying it for £35, once you've spent £35. So they are just doubling your spend. They claim this calendar is worth £250 (has 24 x beauty products inside). I think that is definitely BS.

I 'fessed up that I'd only spent £30 and couldn't get the advent calendar 'because I can't afford it'. (True, but also, why would anyone buy that...)

She looked at me like I was crazy. 'But you only needed to spend another fiver'. Like I'd just wasted such an opportunity.

Can't she add? It seems to me you'd have had to spend at least another forty: the £35 for the cost of the item, plus the five more to qualify for the purchase, plus whatever taxes apply.

To be fair it's not exactly mustachian but she's not being as much of a moron as you think. 
Those promotional advent deals can be a bargain but there's a marketing angle to it (my wife is works in purchasing in the cosmetics industry).

It has become fairly common practice in the last few years to sell those advent calendars with small jars of creams and lotions at near cost price in the run up to Christmas, the hope being that the customer likes the products and goes on to either
a) Treat themselves to full size products, because Christmas
b) Thinks of the full size products when family / friends ask them what they would like for Christmas

I can't remember the exact percentage but my wife did tell me that by selling a limited number last year they increased like for like sales of the full size products by a significant amount.

Gotta say, from the point of view of the sellers, the beauty advent calendar is a clever idea. They are everywhere this year. They cost so much money and people seem to be going wild for them. Interesting you say that - hadn't thought of the increased sales elsewhere that they get from it. In terms of marketing, it's so savvy.

But yeah, she did seem to think it was only an extra fiver to get the 'chance' to buy the calendar - I think she was definitely considering the £35 spend on the calendar as somehow void or non-existent in her head. I mean, I used to drink the koolaid and I would probably have done the same about 4 years ago :)

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15773 on: November 11, 2016, 02:12:04 PM »
I saw a beer advent calendar at costco.  Now that is brilliant.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15774 on: November 11, 2016, 03:01:26 PM »
I saw a beer advent calendar at costco.  Now that is brilliant.
I want one!

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15775 on: November 11, 2016, 03:15:15 PM »
I saw a beer advent calendar at costco.  Now that is brilliant.
I want one!

only one? The mustachianism is strong in this one.

Linda_Norway

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15776 on: November 11, 2016, 03:27:05 PM »
Oh dear, colleague. I once had a young colleague who was telling us she had bought a car. It was quite a nice car and much more expensive than the cheapest option. She got a loan for the entire amount with only 2 percent rent. She felt great about it. This girl also still had debth from her study.

This same girl paid a lot for her fitness club. And spent a lot on other stuff. But sometimes had trouble having enough money to pay for her food.

She was also sharing her housing cost 50/50 with her boyfriend who earned a lot more than her. When I was young and my HB and I were not married and still had separate bank accounts, we used to share the cost based on our incomes. He paid 50% more than I did.

kayvent

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15777 on: November 11, 2016, 03:50:11 PM »
Oh dear, colleague. I once had a young colleague who was telling us she had bought a car. It was quite a nice car and much more expensive than the cheapest option. She got a loan for the entire amount with only 2 percent rent. She felt great about it. This girl also still had debth from her study.

This same girl paid a lot for her fitness club. And spent a lot on other stuff. But sometimes had trouble having enough money to pay for her food.

She was also sharing her housing cost 50/50 with her boyfriend who earned a lot more than her. When I was young and my HB and I were not married and still had separate bank accounts, we used to share the cost based on our incomes. He paid 50% more than I did.

This is why I hate men. The guy gets convenient sex and cheap housing along with other benefits I'm sure.

gimp

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15778 on: November 11, 2016, 04:38:25 PM »
Can't tell if you're trying to be funny.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15779 on: November 11, 2016, 06:27:59 PM »
Maybe she gets the benefits, if you know what I mean.
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Linda_Norway

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15780 on: November 12, 2016, 01:12:00 AM »
It was probably her idea of equality. For Norwegian standards, in general, women are supposed to be FI from their man, as most women have their own job. It might be hard to accept for some that their is a difference in income and that it might be reasonable to share other than 50/50.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 06:13:56 AM by Linda_Norway »

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15781 on: November 12, 2016, 01:38:27 AM »
It is for each couple to decide how they split the shared costs. In my experience there is a tendency (outside the MMM/FIRE community) for the higher earner to drive up costs somewhat.

It sounds like this woman would be making choices above what she can afford regardless of how much her boyfriend earned and how much she earns.

You don't get to buy a fancy car when you can't afford food!!!!

Torran

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15782 on: November 12, 2016, 03:34:36 AM »
It is for each couple to decide how they split the shared costs. In my experience there is a tendency (outside the MMM/FIRE community) for the higher earner to drive up costs somewhat.

It sounds like this woman would be making choices above what she can afford regardless of how much her boyfriend earned and how much she earns.

You don't get to buy a fancy car when you can't afford food!!!!

SO true.

Seppia

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15783 on: November 12, 2016, 06:19:05 AM »
Wife and I have had different financial agreements depending on the situation
When we moved to the states I was making 3x what she was making and (being in NYC) if we were to split rent 50/50 it would have eaten 2/3 of her salary
She was consulting for the company she used to work for in Italy, so she had an Italian salary and was working basically half time, so by being at home she was contributing much more than me in the domestic area
Now we moved back to Italy, we both have full time jobs and rent is around 10% of our cumulative salaries, so now we split 50/50 even if I make more than her

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15784 on: November 12, 2016, 07:21:04 AM »
The latest problem, however, is medical bills. She made the mistake of not checking whether her spinal injections were in network or not, and they weren't. So now she owes just shy of $10,000 that she really can't afford. She's hoping to refinance her mortgage and roll that debt into it. I've tried giving helpful advice before, like suggesting areas they could cut expenses, but she has a reason why she can't make a sacrifice for any scenario.
i work in a hospital and I see this so often. Pt's come in and don't know which hospitals thier insurance does and doesn't cover, what procedures they need pre-approval for etc.
Always make sure you are using in network providers and check if you need pre-approval for procedures or surgery.

It sounds so easy when you say it like that, but the insurance companies make it difficult to figure out who is in network on purpose, knowing that if you screw up, they saved money. And then when they reject your claims, you don't know if you screwed up the difficult process or if they are just lying.

My insurance co's website lists thousands of doctors as "in network" that they won't pay for. They use different terminology to indicate which doctors are actually covered, and "in network" means something else. Don't tell me they didn't make that confusing on purpose! Almost everyone in my office has ended up with medical bills because the first time they needed some kind of urgent care they didn't realize "in network" meant "not really covered."

I don't blame anyone for making this kind of mistake. It just plain sucks that we have to pit ourselves against giant insurance companies and their lawyers and shareholders when we are desperate, hurting and sick.
We poor people in a socialised country have a organisation that sues in those social responsibility cases for us. Damn anti-capitalistic leftists! Force companys to not screw their customers!

Half-Borg

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15785 on: November 12, 2016, 03:02:12 PM »
Good to know that Trump will look into that and has a great plan, yet to be revealed

Pooperman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15786 on: November 12, 2016, 03:21:04 PM »
Good to know that Trump will look into that and has a great plan, yet to be revealed

The best plan.

wepner

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15787 on: November 12, 2016, 03:57:10 PM »
It is for each couple to decide how they split the shared costs. In my experience there is a tendency (outside the MMM/FIRE community) for the higher earner to drive up costs somewhat.

It sounds like this woman would be making choices above what she can afford regardless of how much her boyfriend earned and how much she earns.

You don't get to buy a fancy car when you can't afford food!!!!

SO true.

Does anyone else see or feel like there is sort of a parallel of this idea and the balance of household chores?

Generally, guys make more money than women, they want to live in a nice place and some expect that their gfs to pay for half even if the gf wouldn't have chosen that place when they were single.

Generally, women prefer or are socialized or whatever to want a clean house, and some expect their bfs to clean 50% even if the bf wouldn't be doing that much cleaning if they were single.

The genders could be  switched and obviously communication and negotiations would solve both problems but I just noticed these topics have both come up quite a bit and made a connection that the same kind of logic goes into both problems.

Seppia

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15788 on: November 13, 2016, 03:46:40 AM »
I believe it's natural and really healthy that in a relationship one compromises a bit to make the other one happy.
Yes I would not clean as often as I do if I were single, but my wife appreciates it so why not.

Linda_Norway

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15789 on: November 13, 2016, 09:54:12 AM »
Oh dear, colleague. I once had a young colleague who was telling us she had bought a car. It was quite a nice car and much more expensive than the cheapest option. She got a loan for the entire amount with only 2 percent rent. She felt great about it. This girl also still had debth from her study.

This same girl paid a lot for her fitness club. And spent a lot on other stuff. But sometimes had trouble having enough money to pay for her food.

She was also sharing her housing cost 50/50 with her boyfriend who earned a lot more than her. When I was young and my HB and I were not married and still had separate bank accounts, we used to share the cost based on our incomes. He paid 50% more than I did.

I forgot to mention that this girl also payed someone to wash her appartment, because she prioritized her time to visit the gym. I call it a lost case.

kayvent

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15790 on: November 13, 2016, 10:46:18 AM »
Oh dear, colleague. I once had a young colleague who was telling us she had bought a car. It was quite a nice car and much more expensive than the cheapest option. She got a loan for the entire amount with only 2 percent rent. She felt great about it. This girl also still had debth from her study.

This same girl paid a lot for her fitness club. And spent a lot on other stuff. But sometimes had trouble having enough money to pay for her food.

She was also sharing her housing cost 50/50 with her boyfriend who earned a lot more than her. When I was young and my HB and I were not married and still had separate bank accounts, we used to share the cost based on our incomes. He paid 50% more than I did.

I forgot to mention that this girl also payed someone to wash her appartment, because she prioritized her time to visit the gym. I call it a lost case.

Gotta keep in shape so the douchebag boyfriend doesn't leave her?

Cathy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15791 on: November 13, 2016, 03:22:58 PM »
I once had a young colleague who was ... sharing her housing cost 50/50 with her boyfriend who earned a lot more than her. When I was young and my HB and I were not married and still had separate bank accounts, we used to share the cost based on our incomes. He paid 50% more than I did.

[...]

Gotta keep in shape so the douchebag boyfriend doesn't leave her?

I don't think we have enough information to determine whether the boyfriend is a "douchebag". Splitting shared costs 50/50 sounds potentially fair to me, in certain circumstances, provided among other things that both people have the same say in choosing to incur the costs.

Splitting costs based on income is potentially highly problematic because income is fleeting.

Suppose one partner is earning 5 times as much as the other partner for a while, but then takes a year off work. During that year, their income is now 0, so should they pay nothing toward the rent? As can be seen, splitting expenses based on income would create a perverse incentive to artificially lower one's income. The obvious solution is then to "impute" income based on what the person could be earning, but then that has the effect of seriously limiting freedom; for example, a partner could not accept a lower-paying job that they would rather do without then having to pay a disproportionate ratio of the expenses because the higher level of income would still be imputed to them.

That said, the parties to a relationship are free to negotiate whatever terms they wish, even if those terms create skewed incentives and set the relationship up for financial failure. By the same token, we shouldn't label somebody a "douchebag" just because they negotiated a different arrangement then you would have yourself. And incidentally, we don't know that it was the boyfriend who proposed or insisted on this term of the arrangement. The "colleague" mentioned in the story might be the lower-income partner today, but maybe she realises that income is fleeting and understands that in the future, her boyfriend might have a lower level of income than she does, and when the positions are revered, she doesn't want to pay more than half, and hence she negotiated equal cost sharing today even though it's currently not favourable to her (because she expects it to be the best arrangement for the long term).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 04:30:34 PM by Cathy »
This post contains only general information on the issues raised by this topic. This post does not provide help tailored to your specific situation. There are many facts that could be relevant to your specific situation and I am not in possession of those facts. If you need help tailored to your specific situation, you should retain an appropriate professional and not rely on this post.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15792 on: November 13, 2016, 11:16:44 PM »
I once had a young colleague who was ... sharing her housing cost 50/50 with her boyfriend who earned a lot more than her. When I was young and my HB and I were not married and still had separate bank accounts, we used to share the cost based on our incomes. He paid 50% more than I did.

[...]

Gotta keep in shape so the douchebag boyfriend doesn't leave her?

I don't think we have enough information to determine whether the boyfriend is a "douchebag". Splitting shared costs 50/50 sounds potentially fair to me, in certain circumstances, provided among other things that both people have the same say in choosing to incur the costs.

Splitting costs based on income is potentially highly problematic because income is fleeting.

Suppose one partner is earning 5 times as much as the other partner for a while, but then takes a year off work. During that year, their income is now 0, so should they pay nothing toward the rent? As can be seen, splitting expenses based on income would create a perverse incentive to artificially lower one's income. The obvious solution is then to "impute" income based on what the person could be earning, but then that has the effect of seriously limiting freedom; for example, a partner could not accept a lower-paying job that they would rather do without then having to pay a disproportionate ratio of the expenses because the higher level of income would still be imputed to them.

That said, the parties to a relationship are free to negotiate whatever terms they wish, even if those terms create skewed incentives and set the relationship up for financial failure. By the same token, we shouldn't label somebody a "douchebag" just because they negotiated a different arrangement then you would have yourself. And incidentally, we don't know that it was the boyfriend who proposed or insisted on this term of the arrangement. The "colleague" mentioned in the story might be the lower-income partner today, but maybe she realises that income is fleeting and understands that in the future, her boyfriend might have a lower level of income than she does, and when the positions are revered, she doesn't want to pay more than half, and hence she negotiated equal cost sharing today even though it's currently not favourable to her (because she expects it to be the best arrangement for the long term).


This is exactly what I had to explain to my wife when she originally wanted to split the mortgage by earnings.  Yeah, you are now in school and think this is a great idea but in a couple years I'll quit and you'll be earning 10x my withdrawals...

Of course I would never let my wife go go bankrupt if she couldn't afford half, or force her to take on larger payments than she wanted, but simple division based on income is a bit naive

appleblossom

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15793 on: November 14, 2016, 12:10:23 AM »
I once had a young colleague who was ... sharing her housing cost 50/50 with her boyfriend who earned a lot more than her. When I was young and my HB and I were not married and still had separate bank accounts, we used to share the cost based on our incomes. He paid 50% more than I did.

[...]

Gotta keep in shape so the douchebag boyfriend doesn't leave her?

I don't think we have enough information to determine whether the boyfriend is a "douchebag". Splitting shared costs 50/50 sounds potentially fair to me, in certain circumstances, provided among other things that both people have the same say in choosing to incur the costs.

...


This is exactly what I had to explain to my wife when she originally wanted to split the mortgage by earnings.  Yeah, you are now in school and think this is a great idea but in a couple years I'll quit and you'll be earning 10x my withdrawals...

Of course I would never let my wife go go bankrupt if she couldn't afford half, or force her to take on larger payments than she wanted, but simple division based on income is a bit naive

I have always split housing costs evenly, with whoever I lived with. Perhaps it is a carry over from having roommates but it always seemed the fairest way as we get the same benefit of the use of the house, power etc.
The only time that I wouldn't pay equally is if one person particularly wanted a service (eg cable) or wanted a bigger/better house than my budget would allow.

I'd also add that splitting housing costs evenly tells us nothing about the rest of their expenses.
My partner and I have similar incomes, but I have student loans and he doesn't so we have about a 15% difference in take home pay.
He usually ends up paying a bit more towards groceries petrol etc so we are probably roughly proportionate in what we actually end paying.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15794 on: November 14, 2016, 12:18:58 AM »
I don't think we have enough information to determine whether the boyfriend is a "douchebag". Splitting shared costs 50/50 sounds potentially fair to me, in certain circumstances, provided among other things that both people have the same say in choosing to incur the costs...

Splitting costs based on income is potentially highly problematic because income is fleeting...

That said, the parties to a relationship are free to negotiate whatever terms they wish, even if those terms create skewed incentives and set the relationship up for financial failure.

+1.

I wonder if the (IMO excellent) parental leave policy in Norway may alter this decision making. In countries without paid parental leave, a prospective parent who wants to stay home with their baby would possibly consider that they may have a long time without income, so may be more inclined to suggest a split based on income. If you know that you can have a child without losing a year's income, you have less need to protect yourself.

The douchebagness of the boyfriend also depends on the age and stage of the relationship. If I share a house with people I'd expect the costs to be split evenly (adjusting for bigger rooms, use of utilities as needed). If I then hook up with one of my housemates on a drunk night out I wouldn't expect them to start splitting our costs by income the next morning. On the other hand, it would be odd (to me) to ask for separate checks after dinner with someone I was living with and raising a child with.

financialfreedomsloth

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15795 on: November 14, 2016, 02:06:54 AM »
I have always split housing costs evenly, with whoever I lived with. Perhaps it is a carry over from having roommates but it always seemed the fairest way as we get the same benefit of the use of the house, power etc.
The only time that I wouldn't pay equally is if one person particularly wanted a service (eg cable) or wanted a bigger/better house than my budget would allow.
Totally agree. Splitting living costs based on income is weird to me, we both use the same house and get the same amount of joy out of it so to me it is logical that we pay the same amount. It could be different if you had to move to a HCOL-area due to the job of one partner. Or if the partner who makes more money insists on a bigger house/apartment because he/she earns more and want something ‘befitting’ his/her income. Yeah, in that case the partner wanting to upgrade can pay more but if both partners chose the current house in the location they both wanted then cost should be split equally as both get the same amount of use/enjoyment out of it. Same for cars, basic car both will use: split evenly. One partner really wants a more fancy, bling bling car, well then that partner can pony up the difference! It should also help to keep both on a more mustachian trajectory!
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Kitsune

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15796 on: November 14, 2016, 05:17:44 AM »
I have always split housing costs evenly, with whoever I lived with. Perhaps it is a carry over from having roommates but it always seemed the fairest way as we get the same benefit of the use of the house, power etc.
The only time that I wouldn't pay equally is if one person particularly wanted a service (eg cable) or wanted a bigger/better house than my budget would allow.
Totally agree. Splitting living costs based on income is weird to me, we both use the same house and get the same amount of joy out of it so to me it is logical that we pay the same amount. It could be different if you had to move to a HCOL-area due to the job of one partner. Or if the partner who makes more money insists on a bigger house/apartment because he/she earns more and want something ‘befitting’ his/her income. Yeah, in that case the partner wanting to upgrade can pay more but if both partners chose the current house in the location they both wanted then cost should be split equally as both get the same amount of use/enjoyment out of it. Same for cars, basic car both will use: split evenly. One partner really wants a more fancy, bling bling car, well then that partner can pony up the difference! It should also help to keep both on a more mustachian trajectory!

Agreed... Ish.

I've only ever lived with one romantic partner, and I wound up marrying him and we're still together, so it's not like I have extensive experience here.

When we first moved in together, we'd been together for 2 years but weren't at the stage of getting married/combining finances (aka: I wasn't gonna combine finances without a framework for de-combining or sign of permanence). I made twice what he did - I had an entry-level corporate job and he worked part-time in a call centre and part-time as a musician. What we wound up doing was putting together a budget with things split 50/50 based on the money he brought in (and had a semi-crap apartment, no car, etc) opening a joint account, and putting money for 50% of rent/utilities/food in there, and keeping the rest "separate". And then, key for us, I think, was that we kept the same amount for personal spending available (it SUCKS to be in a relationship where one person has 50$ of disposable income and the other person has 1.5k, monthly...) and I put the difference in savings - the logic being that if we decided not to stay together it was "my" money, and if we did it'd be a great investment for a shared future. Win/win.

... Wanna know how millennials manage to buy a house before 30? Enforced saving rates for relationship harmony totally works. ;)

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15797 on: November 14, 2016, 08:40:54 AM »
I cannot believe anyone would think that the concept of splitting housing costs must mean that the bf is a 'douchebag." Way to go out on a limb and make assumptions about someone you know nearly nothing about.

frugalnacho

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15798 on: November 14, 2016, 08:44:16 AM »
My douchebag neighbor pays approximately the same mortgage for a comparable house despite earning twice as much as me.  Life is so unfair.

runningthroughFIRE

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15799 on: November 14, 2016, 08:49:31 AM »
My douchebag neighbor pays approximately the same mortgage for a comparable house despite earning twice as much as me.  Life is so unfair.
I bet the bastard even pays similar utility rates, too.