Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 8911192 times)

Dezrah

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15550 on: November 03, 2016, 07:52:37 AM »
me: how much did you spend?
her: $20,000
me: what did you BUY???
her: clothes
me: (to myself) WTF!!!! (to her) oh was there a sale?
her: (serious) No.
me: Oh.... (to myself WTFFFFFFFFFF)

There was an episode of The Profit once where Lemonis partnered with a clothing boutique.  The first thing he did was pile up the massive amount of outdated inventory and sold it in bulk for pennies on the dollar.  Maybe that's what your coworker bought. 

MrRealEstate

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15551 on: November 03, 2016, 10:03:52 AM »
me: how much did you spend?
her: $20,000
me: what did you BUY???
her: clothes
me: (to myself) WTF!!!! (to her) oh was there a sale?
her: (serious) No.
me: Oh.... (to myself WTFFFFFFFFFF)

There was an episode of The Profit once where Lemonis partnered with a clothing boutique.  The first thing he did was pile up the massive amount of outdated inventory and sold it in bulk for pennies on the dollar.  Maybe that's what your coworker bought.

They did this at blue jeans bar I believe.

Definitely my favorite show for the sarcasm. Life or Debt was a great one, but it got cancelled after one season.

JAYSLOL

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15552 on: November 03, 2016, 11:01:03 AM »

I couldn't help but wonder how many weekends he puts the same in but doesn't win anything.

Gambling/the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math.

Gambling is a tax on those who are desperate enough to not care what the math works out to.  I would guess most people who play a lot actually can do the math and if they did, would keep playing anyway. 

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15553 on: November 03, 2016, 04:36:51 PM »

I couldn't help but wonder how many weekends he puts the same in but doesn't win anything.

Gambling/the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math.


This is so offensive! (Sarcasm for those with broken detectors.) I am TERRIBLE at math, but I know better than to waste money thinking I'll win big!


I'm just waiting for the day my cat goes viral and I can rake in that Famous Internet Cat money.

There is a book about financial freedom through cat videos: https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Make-Your-Internet-Celebrity/dp/1594746796

Inaya

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15554 on: November 04, 2016, 08:47:51 AM »

I couldn't help but wonder how many weekends he puts the same in but doesn't win anything.

Gambling/the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math.


This is so offensive! (Sarcasm for those with broken detectors.) I am TERRIBLE at math, but I know better than to waste money thinking I'll win big!


I'm just waiting for the day my cat goes viral and I can rake in that Famous Internet Cat money.

There is a book about financial freedom through cat videos: https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Make-Your-Internet-Celebrity/dp/1594746796


I love that this exists, but I love Amazon's recommendations even more. Customers who bought this book also bought:
  • Crafting with Cat Hair
  • I Could Pee on This
  • How to Tell if Your Cat is Plotting to Kill You
My library doesn't have it, but I think I need it.

RamonaQ

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15555 on: November 04, 2016, 08:50:27 AM »
I love that this exists, but I love Amazon's recommendations even more. Customers who bought this book also bought:
  • Crafting with Cat Hair
  • I Could Pee on This
  • How to Tell if Your Cat is Plotting to Kill You
My library doesn't have it, but I think I need it.

I have read all three of these books.  I am so proud.

Kitsune

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15556 on: November 04, 2016, 09:45:34 AM »
Director-level colleague 1: "But we can't make this decision right now! What if it's the WRONG DECISION??!"
Me: "... then we step back on it, it costs us the time needed to make the transition (roughly 20 hours of the secretary's time, for the record), and we find another option to fix our problems. But right now, this is the best option presented with the information we have. We're doing it."
Director-level colleague 2: "But we can't make decisions without being absolutely sure they're the right ones!!"

For fuck's sake, ladies. We are all directors here. We are literally paid money to make decisions under situations of uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the more money. This is actually our role. If you want a role in which everything is clear-cut and nothing will ever change, try training as the accounting technician -  that's her personality and she's marvelously well-suited for the role.

We are NEVER going to have 100% accurate information on all our options. The best we can do is get all the information we can, and make the best decisions we can based on the information available. At a certain point, decision paralysis ALSO costs money/time/opportunity. If the wrong decisions will cost millions, sure, sit on it a bit. But something this easily reversible if it goes wrong?? Guys. Come ON. Make a call and move on. Your salary is wasted on this shit.

*frustraaaation*

God I can't wait for my maternity leave... at least a baby has a REASON to be irrational and cranky and not make decisions.

SeaEhm

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15557 on: November 04, 2016, 04:33:42 PM »
Director-level colleague 1: "But we can't make this decision right now! What if it's the WRONG DECISION??!"
Me: "... then we step back on it, it costs us the time needed to make the transition (roughly 20 hours of the secretary's time, for the record), and we find another option to fix our problems. But right now, this is the best option presented with the information we have. We're doing it."
Director-level colleague 2: "But we can't make decisions without being absolutely sure they're the right ones!!"

For fuck's sake, ladies. We are all directors here. We are literally paid money to make decisions under situations of uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the more money. This is actually our role. If you want a role in which everything is clear-cut and nothing will ever change, try training as the accounting technician -  that's her personality and she's marvelously well-suited for the role.

We are NEVER going to have 100% accurate information on all our options. The best we can do is get all the information we can, and make the best decisions we can based on the information available. At a certain point, decision paralysis ALSO costs money/time/opportunity. If the wrong decisions will cost millions, sure, sit on it a bit. But something this easily reversible if it goes wrong?? Guys. Come ON. Make a call and move on. Your salary is wasted on this shit.

*frustraaaation*

God I can't wait for my maternity leave... at least a baby has a REASON to be irrational and cranky and not make decisions.

User Edited: You adding gender does nothing to promote positive discussion



Taran Wanderer

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15558 on: November 04, 2016, 05:12:07 PM »
For the record, I assumed she was talking about a male director even with the ladies comment. But then maybe that just indicates my own gender bias...  ugh.

solon

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15559 on: November 04, 2016, 05:49:23 PM »
Director-level colleague 1: "But we can't make this decision right now! What if it's the WRONG DECISION??!"
Me: "... then we step back on it, it costs us the time needed to make the transition (roughly 20 hours of the secretary's time, for the record), and we find another option to fix our problems. But right now, this is the best option presented with the information we have. We're doing it."
Director-level colleague 2: "But we can't make decisions without being absolutely sure they're the right ones!!"

For fuck's sake, ladies. We are all directors here. We are literally paid money to make decisions under situations of uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the more money. This is actually our role. If you want a role in which everything is clear-cut and nothing will ever change, try training as the accounting technician -  that's her personality and she's marvelously well-suited for the role.

We are NEVER going to have 100% accurate information on all our options. The best we can do is get all the information we can, and make the best decisions we can based on the information available. At a certain point, decision paralysis ALSO costs money/time/opportunity. If the wrong decisions will cost millions, sure, sit on it a bit. But something this easily reversible if it goes wrong?? Guys. Come ON. Make a call and move on. Your salary is wasted on this shit.

*frustraaaation*

God I can't wait for my maternity leave... at least a baby has a REASON to be irrational and cranky and not make decisions.

User Edited: You adding gender does nothing to promote positive discussion

The gender adds a great deal in my ability to construct this scene in my mind.

Your comment detracts from positive discussion.

With This Herring

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15560 on: November 04, 2016, 06:24:16 PM »
Director-level colleague 1: "But we can't make this decision right now! What if it's the WRONG DECISION??!"
Me: "... then we step back on it, it costs us the time needed to make the transition (roughly 20 hours of the secretary's time, for the record), and we find another option to fix our problems. But right now, this is the best option presented with the information we have. We're doing it."
Director-level colleague 2: "But we can't make decisions without being absolutely sure they're the right ones!!"

For fuck's sake, ladies. We are all directors here. We are literally paid money to make decisions under situations of uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the more money. This is actually our role. If you want a role in which everything is clear-cut and nothing will ever change, try training as the accounting technician -  that's her personality and she's marvelously well-suited for the role.

We are NEVER going to have 100% accurate information on all our options. The best we can do is get all the information we can, and make the best decisions we can based on the information available. At a certain point, decision paralysis ALSO costs money/time/opportunity. If the wrong decisions will cost millions, sure, sit on it a bit. But something this easily reversible if it goes wrong?? Guys. Come ON. Make a call and move on. Your salary is wasted on this shit.

*frustraaaation*

God I can't wait for my maternity leave... at least a baby has a REASON to be irrational and cranky and not make decisions.

User Edited: You adding gender does nothing to promote positive discussion

Kitsune is a lady.  I assumed that her use of "ladies" indicated that the directors were, in fact, ladies.  Would you have preferred "youse guys"?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15561 on: November 04, 2016, 06:59:01 PM »
For the record, I assumed she was talking about a male director even with the ladies comment. But then maybe that just indicates my own gender bias...  ugh.

Yes, that would be your bias. And if the directors were in fact male, then calling them 'ladies' as a derogatory term would be grossly inappropriate as well.

gimp

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15562 on: November 04, 2016, 07:02:32 PM »
"Youse all yall" to just combine a few tropes.

Kitsune

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15563 on: November 04, 2016, 07:10:28 PM »
For the record, I assumed she was talking about a male director even with the ladies comment. But then maybe that just indicates my own gender bias...  ugh.

Yes, that would be your bias. And if the directors were in fact male, then calling them 'ladies' as a derogatory term would be grossly inappropriate as well.

Um, they're all women. As am I. The "ladies" comment was just more biologically accurate than "guys", seeing as none of the, are, in fact, guys.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15564 on: November 04, 2016, 07:33:27 PM »
For the record, I assumed she was talking about a male director even with the ladies comment. But then maybe that just indicates my own gender bias...  ugh.

Yes, that would be your bias. And if the directors were in fact male, then calling them 'ladies' as a derogatory term would be grossly inappropriate as well.

Um, they're all women. As am I. The "ladies" comment was just more biologically accurate than "guys", seeing as none of the, are, in fact, guys.

I'm with you, Kitsune.  People who really struggle to make decisions after reasonable/due diligence (not no-rock-unturned diligence) should not be at the director level.  It drives me crazy when there's sufficient information available -- or at least the best information that can be had at the time a decision needs to be made -- and yet some people just can't set the direction.  Not everyone has the skill-set to make the tough decisions and then take accountability for it, and that's fine, not everyone has to.  But if you're going to be a successful director, those skills are necessary.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15565 on: November 04, 2016, 11:21:01 PM »
It's benefits re-enrollment time at my work.
They have revamped the structure of the benefit packages..

Darn health, dental and LTD benefits are going up by $1800 a year.  Ouch.   Some employees will revert to their SO's benefit packages, so it won't be bad for them, but for many, our company was the "solid benefits" employers, and the SO's have little in benefits.

Oh, and the average pay increase for the whole office is only 1.5% this year....  So, for someone making only $70k a year, that would be a net loss of about 1.5% in take home pay versus last year.

SeaEhm

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15566 on: November 04, 2016, 11:22:24 PM »
Thanks for playing!


My post was a joke regarding a thread where a moderator edited someone's post because they used gender stereotypes.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15567 on: November 04, 2016, 11:48:31 PM »
Thanks for playing!


My post was a joke regarding a thread where a moderator edited someone's post because they used gender stereotypes.

Ahh.. you should have used a more prominent color than black for your text.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15568 on: November 05, 2016, 09:27:09 AM »
For the record, I assumed she was talking about a male director even with the ladies comment. But then maybe that just indicates my own gender bias...  ugh.

Yes, that would be your bias. And if the directors were in fact male, then calling them 'ladies' as a derogatory term would be grossly inappropriate as well.

Calling a mixed group ladies wouldn't be all that different from calling a mixed group guys. And even if my unconscious assumption about the director's gender had been correct, it would have been a mixed group because Kitsune is a woman. In any case, your tone is not appreciated as I already clearly acknowledged my error and was reflecting on it. That should warrant a pat on the back. Go direct your anger somewhere else.

SeaEhm

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15569 on: November 05, 2016, 11:17:59 AM »
Thanks for playing!


My post was a joke regarding a thread where a moderator edited someone's post because they used gender stereotypes.

Ahh.. you should have used a more prominent color than black for your text.

The lure can't be too obvious. Then people won't bite.

TomTX

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15570 on: November 06, 2016, 05:58:03 AM »
Yeah, the smugness from the "I'm way too smart to play the lotto" crowd is tedious when it's directed towards the "buy 3 tickets a year when Powerball goes over $500M" players. You want to yell at the $50/wk people, absolutely, but the whole drop $2 on a whim for a big jackpot, who cares?  I used to joke that back when I drank soda, I'd occasionally go in to the gas station and get a Coke and ticket, and the ticket was the much more responsible purchase.

That's funny, I frequently use soda for an example the other way - "I'd rather spend $2 on a delicious, ice cold drink than on a useless scrap of paper".

I wonder if the whole "dreaming of riches" thing is way less common in Mustachians. I mean, when you already either have a big pile of money, or are making fast and measurable progress towards that pile, you're already seeing a definite finish line for needing to work.
I think its more the difference between those people who can stick to plans and those who need immediate gratification.


Also on the lottery:
Why you buy at big jackpots?
If you win a small with 10 million, you have made it and can live in luxury for the rest of your life.
If you win a big one with 200 million, you have made it and can live in luxury for the rest of your life.

So if both are the same, why play when the competition is fiercest?

$10M wouldn't do it for me; beachfront house on Maui is probably $5-10M itself. :-P

So get a beachfront house on the Big Island for $1M. :P

kina

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15571 on: November 06, 2016, 10:20:55 AM »
It's benefits re-enrollment time at my work.
They have revamped the structure of the benefit packages..

Darn health, dental and LTD benefits are going up by $1800 a year.  Ouch.   Some employees will revert to their SO's benefit packages, so it won't be bad for them, but for many, our company was the "solid benefits" employers, and the SO's have little in benefits.

Oh, and the average pay increase for the whole office is only 1.5% this year....  So, for someone making only $70k a year, that would be a net loss of about 1.5% in take home pay versus last year.

If you think it will make anyone feel better, you can point out the [not-quite-eligible for Medicare] woman in Pennsylvania who is  seeing her annual marketplace premium increase $7,200. Yes, that's just the increase.

Affordable Care Act. Yippee.

scottish

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15572 on: November 06, 2016, 01:04:11 PM »
Yeah, I don't really understand this.    Up here we have a single payer system & I pay about 1000 CAD/year for the 4 of us on top of my assorted income taxes.   

It's just medicare - no drugs, dental, LTD etc.   But overall it works pretty well.   Wait times for specialists are pretty long if it's not an emergency, but emergency care is provided quickly.

Why are these premiums so crazy in the US?

kayvent

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15573 on: November 06, 2016, 02:12:52 PM »
Yeah, I don't really understand this.    Up here we have a single payer system & I pay about 1000 CAD/year for the 4 of us on top of my assorted income taxes.   

It's just medicare - no drugs, dental, LTD etc.   But overall it works pretty well.   Wait times for specialists are pretty long if it's not an emergency, but emergency care is provided quickly.

Why are these premiums so crazy in the US?

Previous to PPACA, America spent as much on public healthcare per capita as us Canadians. That sounds reasonable until you realize that medicare/medicaid in the USA only covered a small minority of people. AND they spent a similar amount on private healthcare per capita as us Canadians in public healthcare spending.

From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work whereas our beloved Canadian medicare system is very, but not overly, focused on costs. The idea that you'll only have one ultrasound for your entire pregnancy is accepted here. Similarly, we accept that you'll have to wait a week or more to see your family doctor and months or more to see a specialist. When you simply don't provide services or provide less (i.e. slowly), things are cheap. In my university years I injured my knee and a few years later, unrelated, developed bouts of acute amnesia. With the former, it took weeks to see my family doctor and I think a year before I got a call to book an appointment with a specialist months later. With the latter, I literally forget how long it took to have the condition checked out. Eventually the two issues subsided without care. If I was in the USA, I think my personality would be such that I'd not tolerate such an omission of care.

But we're Canadians. We smile and accept the situation because we're nice and most of us aren't constantly in the system so we don't mind screwing over those who are.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15574 on: November 06, 2016, 02:45:38 PM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

kayvent

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15575 on: November 06, 2016, 05:12:05 PM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

The larger quote gives more context. In Canada we just assume that we'll have to wait weeks to see a doctor, months to see a specialist, and perhaps years to get an operation. We also accept that some health services that are covered under the public system are very limited. This drastically lowers costs. This does not mean outcomes are negatively affected though. For example, comparing the USA to the UK, you're likely to get diagnosed earlier for many diseases and survive longer but the negative outcome (dying of the disease sometime after being diagnosed) occurs at similar rates.

gimp

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15576 on: November 06, 2016, 09:38:59 PM »
Lots of reasons for healthcare to cost more in the US.

More people making terrible life choices. A more sue-happy environment in which doctors need to get paid more, and also in which doctors over-authorize the kitchen sink for relatively minor things (CT scans for everyone!). A hospital price structure that is similar to going into a really fancy restaurant: a list of things you want, no costs listed anywhere; the same thing can be 3x the price three miles away. Private insurance takes a slice, of course. Bills that are way too high because the hospital expects everyone to only pay a fraction, either due to insurance agreements, or asking the hospital for a break, or just not paying. Our doctors almost certainly take home more pay after all costs too, which is a good thing IMO. We also don't cap the costs of treatments (drugs etc), largely because the US is often the source of many of the drugs in the first place (politics.) And so on and so forth.

Realistically, if you can't pay in the US, any emergency healthcare is free, any maintenance stuff is out of reach.

If you're wealthy, it's not important.

If you're old or poor, you get huge amounts of support.

If you have a white collar job, you get insurance subsidized by your employer, generally.

If you work for government, see above.

If you work in a union, see above.

If you're just well off enough that you get no support, but have a relatively normal income where a hospital bill can ruin you, and you get no subsidized insurance from govt or work, then life is hard.

The ACA makes life easier in many respects, closing some of the worst abuses. However, the ACA is a compromise that makes nobody happy.

gimp

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15577 on: November 06, 2016, 09:40:42 PM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

Don't forget that a huge amount of our patients are goddamn idiots. They'll be told that you're fat as fuck, stop eating yourself to death, you have to not eat after this surgery for 12 goddamn hours, then they get their fat fucking family to sneak them in KFC.

So our outcomes are often shitty despite good work from hospitals, not because of substandard care.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15578 on: November 07, 2016, 01:08:47 AM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

Don't forget that a huge amount of our patients are goddamn idiots. They'll be told that you're fat as fuck, stop eating yourself to death, you have to not eat after this surgery for 12 goddamn hours, then they get their fat fucking family to sneak them in KFC.

So our outcomes are often shitty despite good work from hospitals, not because of substandard care.

I honestly don't know how the scale of this problem compares in real life, but in the UK we are constantly told that this is a major problem, particularly for GPs who want to tell people to eat better and exercise more but then find patients just don't or lie about it. Also, NHS waiting times are like the weather over here - everyone has something to say about their experience of them.

I'm not saying US healthcare is absolutely awful or anything, but "work" to me means "make people better", not "make people feel like they're getting a good deal". I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

jinga nation

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15579 on: November 07, 2016, 06:45:21 AM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.
Anecdotal data points. Every single relative on my wife's side in the the Greater London area buys private medical insurance. Siblings and first cousins and their spouses. They are in the 22-50 age range. Most are bankers and, accountants, others are office workers, a teacher. It's because waiting to get anything done at an NHS office sucks up productive time.

Kayvent stated what I've been hearing for years from my in-laws, since 2005. When my wife was pregnant, her visiting sister accompanied her for an OBGYN visit. Astounded at the level of care. Amazed, sangs verses of praise. Tremendous verses.

It's not only medicine. Also applies to retail banking, supermarkets (well we're spoilt by Publix), car rentals, generally everything. But this is West Central Florida, we may be an anomaly or a statistical outlier.

Just saying that a lot of times studies don't jive with the boots-on-ground experience. I'm burnt out being told how the NHS sucks by those who contribute to the NHS and are fed up with it. 50+ Anecdotal data points none the less.

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15580 on: November 07, 2016, 07:57:22 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15581 on: November 07, 2016, 08:00:09 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I could not agree more.

The stories about people in socialized medicine countries waiting months/years to see a specialist or get the services/meds they need scare the hell out of me.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15582 on: November 07, 2016, 08:13:41 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I'm in basically the same place as you (employed white collar worker with great health care through work), and I definitely hear where you're coming from. I'm just a little unclear on whether you're saying that the potential cost to you outweighs the benefits to others in worse circumstances, or if you're saying that you support socialized medicine because of the benefit to others, despite the cost to you.

If it's the former, it might be worth considering that many countries with public healthcare also have private insurance providers. (See jinga nation's comments about family in London.)

Another question: what do you plan to do after age 65? Would you use Medicare, with the attendant potential for government headaches, or buy private insurance?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15583 on: November 07, 2016, 08:14:00 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

Do you make all your decisions from a "* everyone else, I want mine" perspective?  That's what this post sounds like, at least.

I am genuinely curious.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15584 on: November 07, 2016, 08:19:22 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

Do you make all your decisions from a "* everyone else, I want mine" perspective?  That's what this post sounds like, at least.

I am genuinely curious.

Essentially, yeah, I do.  I am not in favor of making it worse for me, the Average Productive Worker, to benefit others.  Sorry. 

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15585 on: November 07, 2016, 08:21:45 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I'm in basically the same place as you (employed white collar worker with great health care through work), and I definitely hear where you're coming from. I'm just a little unclear on whether you're saying that the potential cost to you outweighs the benefits to others in worse circumstances, or if you're saying that you support socialized medicine because of the benefit to others, despite the cost to you.

If it's the former, it might be worth considering that many countries with public healthcare also have private insurance providers. (See jinga nation's comments about family in London.)

No, I'm saying I am not in favor of ruining my good deal. 

I am aware of private insurance in other countries, not sure how my essentially paying for insurance twice (taxes and then out of pocket) is better for me.

Quote
Another question: what do you plan to do after age 65? Would you use Medicare, with the attendant potential for government headaches, or buy private insurance?

I'm 34.  Ask me again when I'm 55 or 60; I have a feeling a lot will change over the next 30 years so it's pretty academic for me to worry about that now.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15586 on: November 07, 2016, 08:21:49 AM »
Essentially, yeah, I do.  I am not in favor of making it worse for me, the Average Productive Worker, to benefit others.  Sorry.

You don't need to apologize.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15587 on: November 07, 2016, 08:27:10 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

Do you make all your decisions from a "* everyone else, I want mine" perspective?  That's what this post sounds like, at least.

I am genuinely curious.

Here's how I see it: Either way we land (socialized medicine or not), somebody gets screwed.

Socialized medicine => those of us who have a good thing going right now get screwed and could die waiting for services we didn't have to wait long for before.

Non-socialized medicine => people at the lowest socioeconomic levels get screwed, but there are programs in place to serve them.

I don't think our government is capable of running an efficient healthcare system that's a win for everyone. If this is the direction we're heading (and I believe it is), I see it as a downward spiral. Doctors end up leaving a system that doesn't work even remotely in their favor, so patients have fewer and fewer doctors/specialists/surgeons we can see, so we wait longer and longer for the services we need. That's not a win for anybody.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15588 on: November 07, 2016, 08:28:48 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I could not agree more.

The stories about people in socialized medicine countries waiting months/years to see a specialist or get the services/meds they need scare the hell out of me.

Yes but for every story like this there are many which say the opposite point.

I'm British, rely on the NHS, and have never had a problem with waiting times/dirty hospitals/whatever other way people try and shit on the NHS.

I've had several fairly complicated procedures, including a lumber puncture, MRI scan, and ongoing assessment by a neurologist, and it was all done very quickly and without any fuss, and oh yeah, no payment for anything at all.

It just grinds my gears when people's arguments against socialised healthcare boil down to 'I'm not paying for other people's lives to be saved'. Wow. Just wow. Hope you're proud of yourself.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15589 on: November 07, 2016, 08:29:48 AM »
I believe your fears are unfounded, and I think the proof is in all the other countries that have better health outcomes than us.  That's not a downward spiral at all.

I don't feel like debating it though, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15590 on: November 07, 2016, 08:36:51 AM »
I believe your fears are unfounded, and I think the proof is in all the other countries that have better health outcomes than us.  That's not a downward spiral at all.

I don't feel like debating it though, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't believe the bolded is true; I think it either A) comes from taking 'value' into the equation, B) comes from tortured statistics (such as the oft-cited ""we're terrible at infant mortality" "problem"), or is a result of inclusion of demographics way outside my own.

Like I said, from my perspective, I[/b] have access to the best health care in the world.  Should something be done for those in our country who have little to no health care?  Yes.  Should you burn mine down so everyone can have the same shitty government run health care?  Fuck no, and I'll fight you to stop it from happening.

Also: how many people here have been on US gov't run healthcare?  I have, in the military.  It was garbage.  You want Walter Reed and its problems to be your gold standard?  Thought not.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 08:38:37 AM by Chris22 »

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15591 on: November 07, 2016, 08:38:41 AM »
It just grinds my gears when people's arguments against socialised healthcare boil down to 'I'm not paying for other people's lives to be saved'. Wow. Just wow. Hope you're proud of yourself.

No, that's not it at all. I DO think everyone should have access to good, timely healthcare services. And I'm glad you've had good experiences with NHS.

For simplicity, let's just say we currently have two levels of healthcare available in the U.S.: Really good healthcare/insurance like I (and many others) have; and really bad healthcare/no insurance like many other people have. My fear is that our government is incapable of providing the "really good healthcare" to everyone. Therefore, those of us who have good insurance now will end up with a shittier system if the government takes over, as opposed to having a government that's capable of providing care comparable to what I currently have to everyone. Instead of raising the bar to a higher level for everyone, we get a lower bar across the board.

I hope that's a better explanation that what you're assuming.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15592 on: November 07, 2016, 08:41:21 AM »
I don't feel like debating it though, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Agreed.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15593 on: November 07, 2016, 08:49:35 AM »
I have used private medical insurance in the UK, just the NHS, and now this American monstrosity people call a "system".

I was hospitalized for a week while on the private plan in London, and it was nice not having to wait too much, but definitely not worth the ridiculous amounts of money paid by my dad's employer (I was a minor at the time).

Later, as a young lad in university, I had a couple ER visits at a NHS hospital. Sure, I had to wait longer. But people crying about "rationing of care" are missing the effin point. Rationing and prioritizing care is the only way this works. Putting idiots with self inflicted, non-urgent diseases at the back of the line is a design decision. I don't mind waiting a half day to get my bone fracture looked at if that means the dude who just lost his arm goes first, and the dude with an ingrown toenail goes last. And the obese alcoholic can wait an entire decade for his stomach surgery for all I care.

I don't give a flying fuck about getting the best care in the world. I just want good enough care. Stop spending so much fucking money on getting the best oncologists or neurosurgeons to work at your hospital and start making sure Kevin doesn't bankrupt his parents when he falls off his skateboard.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15594 on: November 07, 2016, 08:50:00 AM »

Should you burn mine down so everyone can have the same shitty government run health care?  Fuck no, and I'll fight you to stop it from happening.


I just don't understand this logic at all. It seems to be based on a heap of assumptions. Just because other people will have something they currently don't have, would not necessarily mean you would be losing anything. It's not like there's only a finite amount of 'health care' to go around. It depends on the way a society agrees to structure the provision of this resource.

That's the thing I basically don't understand. Socialised healthcare, firstly, is different in every country that has it, so you can't say *exactly* what it's going to be like if it happens in your country. Also I'm sure if you asked your average French person they'd say they've got the best healthcare in the world. It's easy to make grand statements about the superiority of your health care if you don't know any different.

The idea is not that everyone has to suffer 'shitty' healthcare, but that healthcare is prioritized by the government as one of the things you provide your citizens with in return for taxes. It something people in a society should see as a right - to be looked after no matter their financial situation. It's a basic security that everyone deserves. Frankly I have heard so much cr*p being spoken about socialised healthcare by people who have never used it.

I'll get back to work now.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15595 on: November 07, 2016, 08:53:52 AM »

I just don't understand this logic at all. It seems to be based on a heap of assumptions. Just because other people will have something they currently don't have, would not necessarily mean you would be losing anything.

No, my fear is not that more people will have access to healthcare, my fear is that the system I have will be replaced with a government run system, and again, having experienced that in the military, that is definitely worse. 

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15596 on: November 07, 2016, 08:56:24 AM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

Don't forget that a huge amount of our patients are goddamn idiots. They'll be told that you're fat as fuck, stop eating yourself to death, you have to not eat after this surgery for 12 goddamn hours, then they get their fat fucking family to sneak them in KFC.

So our outcomes are often shitty despite good work from hospitals, not because of substandard care.

I honestly don't know how the scale of this problem compares in real life, but in the UK we are constantly told that this is a major problem, particularly for GPs who want to tell people to eat better and exercise more but then find patients just don't or lie about it. Also, NHS waiting times are like the weather over here - everyone has something to say about their experience of them.

I'm not saying US healthcare is absolutely awful or anything, but "work" to me means "make people better", not "make people feel like they're getting a good deal". I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)
Not everyone objects to socialized health care.  From what I see and hear, it's the objection to high taxes, the objection to other people getting something that *I* paid for out of *my* taxes, and the lack of personal responsibility.  Also "bootstraps".

It's never my problem until it's my problem.

I know people who object to the ACA, but are on Medicaid.
I know people who complain about their ACA premiums (including relatives), but they are people who literally have had union-level amazing company sponsored health insurance their whole lives.

I've always had good health care as an adult.  As a kid, we didn't have insurance, we paid out of pocket.  I didn't know any better, but I had surgery at 12 ($6000) and my parents paid it back $100 a month for 5 years.

My first adult health care was at college. Then military.  Then job-sponsored.  White collar jobs often come with decent health care, and my spouse and I BOTH have it.

I personally don't think that your health care should be tied to having the *right* job or being married to the *right* person with the *right* job.

Anyway, about the "lying".  I swear my mom would go to the doctor and then she'd tell me that "he says I'm doing great!"  She was seriously 100 pounds overweight, took 25 pills a day, and was an alcoholic...but she didn't tell him about the alcohol, which eventually killed her.  I don't even want to know what it cost for her hospital stays, especially the last one.  But hey, covered by Medicare.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15597 on: November 07, 2016, 09:00:53 AM »

I just don't understand this logic at all. It seems to be based on a heap of assumptions. Just because other people will have something they currently don't have, would not necessarily mean you would be losing anything.

No, my fear is not that more people will have access to healthcare, my fear is that the system I have will be replaced with a government run system, and again, having experienced that in the military, that is definitely worse.
That's interesting, because I felt the medical care I got in the military was fantastic.  But I'm more than a decade older than you are, and my medical care was pretty basic annual exams to keep getting my birth control pills.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15598 on: November 07, 2016, 09:01:15 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I could not agree more.

The stories about people in socialized medicine countries waiting months/years to see a specialist or get the services/meds they need scare the hell out of me.

Yes but for every story like this there are many which say the opposite point.

I'm British, rely on the NHS, and have never had a problem with waiting times/dirty hospitals/whatever other way people try and shit on the NHS.

I've had several fairly complicated procedures, including a lumber puncture, MRI scan, and ongoing assessment by a neurologist, and it was all done very quickly and without any fuss, and oh yeah, no payment for anything at all.

It just grinds my gears when people's arguments against socialised healthcare boil down to 'I'm not paying for other people's lives to be saved'. Wow. Just wow. Hope you're proud of yourself.

This. I'm currently pregant, getting excellent healthcare from the doctor of my choice (finding her took 2 phone calls, and I had an apt a week later), and am paying nothing. Ultrasound? nothing. Diagnostic tests? Nothing. Childbirth? Nothing. (Well, not entirely true: parking at the hospital is 6$. So 6$ parking fee for childbirth.)

My mother has rheumatoid artheritis. She got a referral to a specialist from her GP, for the diagnosis/follow-ups. Time until the specialist appointment: less than 3 weeks (and it could have been less if she'd been willing to see a private-sector doctor, but it didn't seem worth the cost). Total cost of diagnosis, treatments, ongoing visits: nothing. Cost of medication: copay is capped at 82$/month TOTAL for ALL prescriptions (so, once your 20% copay hits 82$, you have no copay). Thanks, Quebec.

My neighbor. 25-year-old kid. No family doctor. No private insurance. Feels an odd lump in his balls. Calls the local public health clinic, explins the issue. Sees a doctor that afternoon. Has a scan that afternoon. Has the results that afternoon: testicular cancer, caught early. Is booked for an operation: 6 days later. Follow-up scans confirm: no chemo necessary, he is cancer-free. Total cost of this treatment: nothing. Total time from 'huh, lump' to operation and treatment: 7 days.

My FIL has prostate cancer. Chemo treatments, repeated scans, repeated doctor's visits, etc: done rapidly, with empathy, at 0 cost. Medication: capped at 82$/month MAX.

Like, if you have a random fever and go to the local 24-hour emergency room/clinic, you'll wait for available resources (aka: if a car accident comes in, you can wait while someone who might die if THEY wait is treated. Triage. Same as you'll find in US waiting rooms). I personally think that's fair.

But otherwise.. I have no idea where y'all are getting your horror stories, but Quebec socialized healthcare is totally working.

Ok, I have some quibbles, as do most people - it could work more effectively. Be more efficient - you have an MRI booked right quick for possibly-urgent conditions, but 'let's double-check the source of these migraines' might take a few months, sure. If you care, you can pay for a private clinic. But we're talking minor whining about improvements, and 100% NOT an envy for the US system. Dear lord. Anything but that.

I doubt this will convince anyone... but it seemed worth saying.

Oh, and to the people who object to high taxes: my husband and I bring in, on average, about 110K/year. At Quebc tax rates vs say, California tax rates, even after exchange rates, we're penalized, sure. But once you account for the cost of health insurance for people of our income bracket, we're hitting about even. I don't see how paying for heathcare via taxes is different from paying it via health insurance.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15599 on: November 07, 2016, 09:09:25 AM »

I just don't understand this logic at all. It seems to be based on a heap of assumptions. Just because other people will have something they currently don't have, would not necessarily mean you would be losing anything.

No, my fear is not that more people will have access to healthcare, my fear is that the system I have will be replaced with a government run system, and again, having experienced that in the military, that is definitely worse.

My daddy was in the Navy for 20+ years, and I was in the Army for 6. Military healthcare is fantastic. I daily thank God that my parents have that.