Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 4772539 times)

coolistdude

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12250 on: January 31, 2016, 07:52:13 PM »
First time posting...going back to thread topic. Yes, I read through or skimmed all of the posts on this thread. So much hate, fun and foam haha.

In the small department I work at, I'm the lowest paid employee who bikes to work and brings sandwiches. My coworkers go out to eat every day (they currently come into the office only four days a week). I just sit and eat my PB or deli sandwich and wonder how much the bill will be. One of them glimmers hope. Combined, he and his wife make around $250k/yr. He has a twelve year old Honda Accord, sometimes brings breakfast from home to work, recently tried the grocery store for lunch, and puts some of his money toward investments. I told him about FI when we were talking about management decisions and he looked at the MMM website and didn't groan or argue.

My boss is a different story. He has been with the company for a decade or so, and has wanted to make some type of contribution toward retirement, but hasn't despite making $100k a year over the past few years. He recently mortgaged a house (in addition to his rentals), is paying off his wife's $60k+ student loans, bought a red fancy 1970s Chevy (the awesome part is that this hot rod causes old men of all demographics to hit on him), and is having car trouble with his Mercedes. I've tried explaining FI to him, but the concept of doing what you want in your own time just does not register. He is the nicest guy, but I feel like I'm not reaching him.

My second coworker is a paradox. He brags about the excellent mileage he will get in his raised diesel Ford pickup truck (saying he may one day get 25mpg after spending $8k upgrading it). This was in response to me sharing my 15 year old Toyota gets 35mpg (I have since sold it and switched to a bicycle.) He also believes that the TCO of a brand new Lexus is lower than my old reliable Toyota. This guy isn't married, has a sporty Nissan that he has spent thousands on, the big diesel truck that he has spent thousands on, and a motorcycle that I've seen only twice. He earlier bragged about how Diesel was cheaper than regular petrol (by like $0.15?). He is consistently late to work and has a bad work ethic, often talking about leaving the company or asking people for letters of reference, but somehow got promoted on the condition he show up on time to work (not my call). This guy makes enemies like crazy at work once they see his true colors (usually takes 6 months) by being a dick to people behind their back but is convinced that everyone is wowed by him and he will become a manager.

CW3: is a sad case. She was months away from retiring, but blew up at her moron boss (she had only worked for him for a couple years. Almost no one can stand him). From what I've overheard, she was fired and lost 2/3 of her retirement (yay...pension plan! What could go wrong??). 

CW4: He buys multiple things from Amazon and has it shipped to work. Most of it are trinkets or non-consumables. He is openly unhappy with his job (10+ years), and just bought a brand new Audi. He is single, and probably makes $85k/yr. If I was unhappy as him with that much freedom, I would save 50%-75% a month, instead of eating out every day worked at the office, and enjoying many life luxuries.

People at my work are often very unhappy, but are waiting until the pension kicks in during their mid 50s to early 60s. I just don't get it.
The good: 27 years old, 1 car, not renting anymore.
The bad: Single income, only about $17k in retirement, and no FI date.
The ugly: 1 year ago I was doing much better but lost all possessions due to mold. It has been an emotional roller coaster.

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zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12251 on: January 31, 2016, 08:39:58 PM »
What are the stats on the number of people who were killed by sheer acceleration? I suspect it is 0, or in the lower 1 digits realm.
If you stand in a crosswalk and a car hits you, you were killed by acceleration. Woo physics!
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saving_dutchman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12252 on: February 01, 2016, 03:09:01 AM »
First time posting...going back to thread topic. Yes, I read through or skimmed all of the posts on this thread. So much hate, fun and foam haha.

In the small department I work at, I'm the lowest paid employee who bikes to work and brings sandwiches. My coworkers go out to eat every day (they currently come into the office only four days a week). I just sit and eat my PB or deli sandwich and wonder how much the bill will be. One of them glimmers hope. Combined, he and his wife make around $250k/yr. He has a twelve year old Honda Accord, sometimes brings breakfast from home to work, recently tried the grocery store for lunch, and puts some of his money toward investments. I told him about FI when we were talking about management decisions and he looked at the MMM website and didn't groan or argue.

My boss is a different story. He has been with the company for a decade or so, and has wanted to make some type of contribution toward retirement, but hasn't despite making $100k a year over the past few years. He recently mortgaged a house (in addition to his rentals), is paying off his wife's $60k+ student loans, bought a red fancy 1970s Chevy (the awesome part is that this hot rod causes old men of all demographics to hit on him), and is having car trouble with his Mercedes. I've tried explaining FI to him, but the concept of doing what you want in your own time just does not register. He is the nicest guy, but I feel like I'm not reaching him.

My second coworker is a paradox. He brags about the excellent mileage he will get in his raised diesel Ford pickup truck (saying he may one day get 25mpg after spending $8k upgrading it). This was in response to me sharing my 15 year old Toyota gets 35mpg (I have since sold it and switched to a bicycle.) He also believes that the TCO of a brand new Lexus is lower than my old reliable Toyota. This guy isn't married, has a sporty Nissan that he has spent thousands on, the big diesel truck that he has spent thousands on, and a motorcycle that I've seen only twice. He earlier bragged about how Diesel was cheaper than regular petrol (by like $0.15?). He is consistently late to work and has a bad work ethic, often talking about leaving the company or asking people for letters of reference, but somehow got promoted on the condition he show up on time to work (not my call). This guy makes enemies like crazy at work once they see his true colors (usually takes 6 months) by being a dick to people behind their back but is convinced that everyone is wowed by him and he will become a manager.

CW3: is a sad case. She was months away from retiring, but blew up at her moron boss (she had only worked for him for a couple years. Almost no one can stand him). From what I've overheard, she was fired and lost 2/3 of her retirement (yay...pension plan! What could go wrong??). 

CW4: He buys multiple things from Amazon and has it shipped to work. Most of it are trinkets or non-consumables. He is openly unhappy with his job (10+ years), and just bought a brand new Audi. He is single, and probably makes $85k/yr. If I was unhappy as him with that much freedom, I would save 50%-75% a month, instead of eating out every day worked at the office, and enjoying many life luxuries.

People at my work are often very unhappy, but are waiting until the pension kicks in during their mid 50s to early 60s. I just don't get it.

CW3 sounds really sad indeed. I'm wondering, how do you lose 2/3 of your retirement if you are that close to retirement and do you think the confrontation was triggered on purpose. It would save the company a boatload of money apparently.

JordanOfGilead

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12253 on: February 01, 2016, 06:05:51 AM »

First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Whoever Jeremy Clarkson is, he has a poor understanding of physics.

GForces from acceleration can kill, even without a sudden deceleration (though we can argue about what actually kills and such).

Jeremy Clarkson is correct.
Traveling at high speed does not kill (think flying on an airplane).
G-forces experienced when coming to a sudden stop (crashing) is what kills.

Your 2nd statement does not make sense since acceleration and deceleration are one and the same (rate of change in velocity).
You are all right.
Speed is irrelevant.
Too strong acceleration kills you.
Too strong deceleration (= acceleration in the other direction) kills you.
Jeremy Clarkson's statement is correct and incomplete. Both of his sentences are true. The complete statement would have been:
"Speed never killed anybody. Changing sufficiently fast from any one state of motion to another, that's what gets you."

Exactly. But his statement of "suddenly becoming stationary" isn't correct.  Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.
You guys are taking this way too seriously. He is a presenter on a British car show called Top Gear. Jeremy Clarkson is essentially a comedian with a reputation for ignorance and "fixing" things with a hammer. The quote was a joke. Lighten up and stop over-analyzing every little thing that somebody posts. The quibbling over irrelevant things is getting old and creating a lot of needless foam.

JordanOfGilead

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12254 on: February 01, 2016, 06:11:33 AM »

First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Whoever Jeremy Clarkson is, he has a poor understanding of physics.

GForces from acceleration can kill, even without a sudden deceleration (though we can argue about what actually kills and such).

Jeremy Clarkson is correct.
Traveling at high speed does not kill (think flying on an airplane).
G-forces experienced when coming to a sudden stop (crashing) is what kills.

Your 2nd statement does not make sense since acceleration and deceleration are one and the same (rate of change in velocity).
You are all right.
Speed is irrelevant.
Too strong acceleration kills you.
Too strong deceleration (= acceleration in the other direction) kills you.
Jeremy Clarkson's statement is correct and incomplete. Both of his sentences are true. The complete statement would have been:
"Speed never killed anybody. Changing sufficiently fast from any one state of motion to another, that's what gets you."

Exactly. But his statement of "suddenly becoming stationary" isn't correct.  Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.

I think you're misunderstanding what he means by "suddenly becoming stationary".
Mr. Clarkson is trying to say;
 - Driving a race car at 200 mph does not kill you - Correct
 - Driving a race car at 1000 mph (if it exists) does not kill you - Correct
 - A race car using its brakes to stop from 200 mph does not kill you - Correct (moderate g force)
 - A race car hitting a concrete wall and instantly coming to a complete stop ("suddenly becoming stationary") is likely to kill you - Correct (extreme g force)

And going 0 to 1000mph in a second will kill you.  You didn't suddenly become stationary, per his point, yet you still died.  The acceleration killed you without you coming to a complete stop.

Oh, I see where the disconnect is.  Yes, I agree acceleration can kill without coming to a complete stop.
Clarkson is a car guy so he is talking about cars and fatality in a car crash.  In which case, he is right because there is no car in the world that can accelerate from 0 to 1000 mph in a second!
Jesus Christmas I regret ever posting the quote to begin with.
You guys will argue over ANYTHING, won't you?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12255 on: February 01, 2016, 06:25:26 AM »
What are the stats on the number of people who were killed by sheer acceleration? I suspect it is 0, or in the lower 1 digits realm.
If you stand in a crosswalk and a car hits you, you were killed by acceleration. Woo physics!

Yeah, the same is true if you're killed by a powerful hook to the temple.  Acceleration deaths happen.

zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12256 on: February 01, 2016, 06:32:01 AM »
7/12 positions filled by women, and 2/3 of management roles filled by women. It is interesting that they are at the bottom and top of the ladder, but not in the middle.
Since it's well established that middle management primarily consists of Clueless pawns deliberately inserted to separate the Sociopaths at the top of the company from the Losers at the bottom, does this mean that men are more likely to be Clueless?
Quote
It is also interesting that despite the department being well balanced, there is still a load of chatter about how hard it is to be a woman in engineering.
Some culturally held beliefs are initially fact-based but later take on a life of their own... it probably was pretty hard for the first one, but #7...? Doubtful.
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ender

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12257 on: February 01, 2016, 06:35:41 AM »
First time posting...going back to thread topic. Yes, I read through or skimmed all of the posts on this thread. So much hate, fun and foam haha.

In the small department I work at, I'm the lowest paid employee who bikes to work and brings sandwiches. My coworkers go out to eat every day (they currently come into the office only four days a week). I just sit and eat my PB or deli sandwich and wonder how much the bill will be. One of them glimmers hope. Combined, he and his wife make around $250k/yr. He has a twelve year old Honda Accord, sometimes brings breakfast from home to work, recently tried the grocery store for lunch, and puts some of his money toward investments. I told him about FI when we were talking about management decisions and he looked at the MMM website and didn't groan or argue.

My boss is a different story. He has been with the company for a decade or so, and has wanted to make some type of contribution toward retirement, but hasn't despite making $100k a year over the past few years. He recently mortgaged a house (in addition to his rentals), is paying off his wife's $60k+ student loans, bought a red fancy 1970s Chevy (the awesome part is that this hot rod causes old men of all demographics to hit on him), and is having car trouble with his Mercedes. I've tried explaining FI to him, but the concept of doing what you want in your own time just does not register. He is the nicest guy, but I feel like I'm not reaching him.

My second coworker is a paradox. He brags about the excellent mileage he will get in his raised diesel Ford pickup truck (saying he may one day get 25mpg after spending $8k upgrading it). This was in response to me sharing my 15 year old Toyota gets 35mpg (I have since sold it and switched to a bicycle.) He also believes that the TCO of a brand new Lexus is lower than my old reliable Toyota. This guy isn't married, has a sporty Nissan that he has spent thousands on, the big diesel truck that he has spent thousands on, and a motorcycle that I've seen only twice. He earlier bragged about how Diesel was cheaper than regular petrol (by like $0.15?). He is consistently late to work and has a bad work ethic, often talking about leaving the company or asking people for letters of reference, but somehow got promoted on the condition he show up on time to work (not my call). This guy makes enemies like crazy at work once they see his true colors (usually takes 6 months) by being a dick to people behind their back but is convinced that everyone is wowed by him and he will become a manager.

CW3: is a sad case. She was months away from retiring, but blew up at her moron boss (she had only worked for him for a couple years. Almost no one can stand him). From what I've overheard, she was fired and lost 2/3 of her retirement (yay...pension plan! What could go wrong??). 

CW4: He buys multiple things from Amazon and has it shipped to work. Most of it are trinkets or non-consumables. He is openly unhappy with his job (10+ years), and just bought a brand new Audi. He is single, and probably makes $85k/yr. If I was unhappy as him with that much freedom, I would save 50%-75% a month, instead of eating out every day worked at the office, and enjoying many life luxuries.

People at my work are often very unhappy, but are waiting until the pension kicks in during their mid 50s to early 60s. I just don't get it.

CW3 sounds really sad indeed. I'm wondering, how do you lose 2/3 of your retirement if you are that close to retirement and do you think the confrontation was triggered on purpose. It would save the company a boatload of money apparently.

A lot of pension plans really scale up at the end for their payout benefits.

At my previous employer, it would have been pretty easy to lose a bunch of pension benefit if you quit too early and were in the 5-10 years before retirement.

Defined benefit plans are more this way than defined contribution, I think, because they normally have a formula where your years of service counts towards the monthly benefit.

Kashmani

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12258 on: February 01, 2016, 07:00:23 AM »
7/12 positions filled by women, and 2/3 of management roles filled by women. It is interesting that they are at the bottom and top of the ladder, but not in the middle.
Since it's well established that middle management primarily consists of Clueless pawns deliberately inserted to separate the Sociopaths at the top of the company from the Losers at the bottom, does this mean that men are more likely to be Clueless?
Quote
It is also interesting that despite the department being well balanced, there is still a load of chatter about how hard it is to be a woman in engineering.
Some culturally held beliefs are initially fact-based but later take on a life of their own... it probably was pretty hard for the first one, but #7...? Doubtful.

I just re-read the Ribbonfarm articles on sociopaths, clueless and losers this weekend. Makes me want to throw up and/or cry every time, but I still think it is a brilliant piece of analysis. I always end up having the sad realization that I am too empathetic to be an effective sociopath and, as a professional, unable to survive as a loser, so ultimately destined to be clueless.


HairyUpperLip

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12259 on: February 01, 2016, 07:09:11 AM »
Hey Mister, TOPIC DRIFT KILLS! I saw a study that shows 30% more Internet users commit suicide in threads driven o/t by foamy black box trolls.

I read another article that suggested reading the article while driving above posted speeds and dodging people driving below posted speed limits, this article claimed that 47.35% of gun owners never cause car accidents.

Source - NRA.

I think I read that article.




HAHAHAHAHAHAHA - made my day sir. Did you photoshop this or is that a coincidence?

arebelspy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12260 on: February 01, 2016, 07:10:48 AM »
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA - made my day sir. Did you photoshop this or is that a coincidence?

Keep reading the replies after that post.  :)
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HairyUpperLip

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12261 on: February 01, 2016, 07:14:09 AM »

Guess again?

lol - If I only had the patience to keep scrolling down before my post. That's awesome man. :)

onlykelsey

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12262 on: February 01, 2016, 07:18:57 AM »
Not so much of an "overheard" as a direct conversation, but one of the junior attorneys who works for me makes ~330K with his wife, they are 27.   He has not put a cent in to his 401K all year, and the 20K bonus went straight to his honeymoon.  I could kill him.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12263 on: February 01, 2016, 07:32:44 AM »
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA - made my day sir. Did you photoshop this or is that a coincidence?

Keep reading the replies after that post.  :)


hahaha, eventually I got there. :)

Thanks :)

Now brace yourself for a long discussion on statics. By the end you'll wish you had paid attention in grade 11. I think it was grade 11 anyways, I wasn't paying attention.

lol - no joke.

zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12264 on: February 01, 2016, 07:44:32 AM »
I just re-read the Ribbonfarm articles on sociopaths, clueless and losers this weekend. Makes me want to throw up and/or cry every time, but I still think it is a brilliant piece of analysis. I always end up having the sad realization that I am too empathetic to be an effective sociopath and, as a professional, unable to survive as a loser, so ultimately destined to be clueless.
But you already understand the paradigm too well to be truly Clueless.
The terminology throws a lot of people off, as they've essentially redefined S and L in ways that conflict with their standard connotations. If you really go through and read every word you see that it is possible to be a benevolent Sociopath, and that Losers can be smart and competent people who just can't or won't play the high-stakes games.
I'm really fucking good at what I do in my current job, but I proudly identify myself as a Loser in BigGovtOrg terms, because I plan on winning at life without ever moving past the bottom rung here or even doing 40 hours of actual work in a week. I'll quit FT work forever at 38, while the overachievers are chasing promotions to fund lifestyle creep.
Meanwhile, on the other hand, my real estate personality is 95% Sociopath. I want to be on top of an empire, even if it's a small one. I systematically strike bargains with Losers that are enforced by the Clueless to maximize my benefit. I operate under moral hazard, even if I don't generally exploit it. My role is defined not by a lack of compassion toward my fellow humans, but by my desire to win things of value (regardless of why I want them) and my ability to manipulate situations to maximize gains. Even if I plan on giving most of my wealth to good causes, playing the game this way means I'm an S there.
The only thing that makes these categories sound positive or negative is the emotional baggage attached to the standard usage of the terms. But within the McLeod hierarchy, each is merely defined by their functional role, all of which are vital, and none inherently desirable or undesirable.
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theadvicist

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12265 on: February 01, 2016, 08:24:33 AM »

7/12 positions filled by women, and 2/3 of management roles filled by women. It is interesting that they are at the bottom and top of the ladder, but not in the middle. It is also interesting that despite the department being well balanced, there is still a load of chatter about how hard it is to be a woman in engineering. This may be true, I don't know. I mostly see the role first, then the abilities, then the gender. I do sometimes hear the comments about 'working for a woman' and whatnot, but really it's not an issue. Between the two managers, I'd much rather go to the woman than the man for advice. Not because she's a woman, but because she's a better leader and better strategist.

Those two statements do not go together. If people are commenting about 'working for a woman', yeah, they have a problem and it is an issue.

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12266 on: February 01, 2016, 08:48:40 AM »
the 20K bonus went straight to his honeymoon.  I could kill him.

Well in his defense, that must have been some honeymoon.

coolistdude

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12267 on: February 01, 2016, 09:00:10 AM »
CW3: is a sad case. She was months away from retiring, but blew up at her moron boss (she had only worked for him for a couple years. Almost no one can stand him). From what I've overheard, she was fired and lost 2/3 of her retirement (yay...pension plan! What could go wrong??). 

CW3 sounds really sad indeed. I'm wondering, how do you lose 2/3 of your retirement if you are that close to retirement and do you think the confrontation was triggered on purpose. It would save the company a boatload of money apparently.

Yeah. So the way it works is you contribute 1/3, the company contributes about 2/3, but you only see that if you retire with the company's retirement plan (and you really don't see each company investment dollar...it just factors into your pension). If you quit or get fired, you only get your contributions unless you find another company that uses the same retirement system. This same manager is driving another one of his employees, 2-3 years from retirement, insane (early 50s). Sometimes the worker gives me rides and I'm coaching him to not fall into the same trap. I doubt the manager is getting an incentive to can people, he is just very had to work with.
The good: 27 years old, 1 car, not renting anymore.
The bad: Single income, only about $17k in retirement, and no FI date.
The ugly: 1 year ago I was doing much better but lost all possessions due to mold. It has been an emotional roller coaster.

Blog: http://bravelycontent.blogspot.com/

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12268 on: February 01, 2016, 09:57:26 AM »
CW3: is a sad case. She was months away from retiring, but blew up at her moron boss (she had only worked for him for a couple years. Almost no one can stand him). From what I've overheard, she was fired and lost 2/3 of her retirement (yay...pension plan! What could go wrong??). 

CW3 sounds really sad indeed. I'm wondering, how do you lose 2/3 of your retirement if you are that close to retirement and do you think the confrontation was triggered on purpose. It would save the company a boatload of money apparently.

Yeah. So the way it works is you contribute 1/3, the company contributes about 2/3, but you only see that if you retire with the company's retirement plan (and you really don't see each company investment dollar...it just factors into your pension). If you quit or get fired, you only get your contributions unless you find another company that uses the same retirement system. This same manager is driving another one of his employees, 2-3 years from retirement, insane (early 50s). Sometimes the worker gives me rides and I'm coaching him to not fall into the same trap. I doubt the manager is getting an incentive to can people, he is just very had to work with.

He doesn't need an incentive. If he's being unreasonably rough on the old farts to the point where they quit at a higher rate than the under-40 set, the chronologically enhanced employees may have a case for a monster age discrimination lawsuit, especially the one who was goaded into blowing up and who then got fired for it. The individual manager doesn't have to be rewarded for it, so long as the company benefits by not having to pay out on a pension.
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coolistdude

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12269 on: February 01, 2016, 01:38:42 PM »
CW3: is a sad case. She was months away from retiring, but blew up at her moron boss (she had only worked for him for a couple years. Almost no one can stand him). From what I've overheard, she was fired and lost 2/3 of her retirement (yay...pension plan! What could go wrong??). 

CW3 sounds really sad indeed. I'm wondering, how do you lose 2/3 of your retirement if you are that close to retirement and do you think the confrontation was triggered on purpose. It would save the company a boatload of money apparently.

Yeah. So the way it works is you contribute 1/3, the company contributes about 2/3, but you only see that if you retire with the company's retirement plan (and you really don't see each company investment dollar...it just factors into your pension). If you quit or get fired, you only get your contributions unless you find another company that uses the same retirement system. This same manager is driving another one of his employees, 2-3 years from retirement, insane (early 50s). Sometimes the worker gives me rides and I'm coaching him to not fall into the same trap. I doubt the manager is getting an incentive to can people, he is just very had to work with.

He doesn't need an incentive. If he's being unreasonably rough on the old farts to the point where they quit at a higher rate than the under-40 set, the chronologically enhanced employees may have a case for a monster age discrimination lawsuit, especially the one who was goaded into blowing up and who then got fired for it. The individual manager doesn't have to be rewarded for it, so long as the company benefits by not having to pay out on a pension.

I completely agree with you. I don't have any way to contact the fired employee (we weren't close...she was in another department). The current guy keeps records in case something happens. I'm not in danger but I keep a CYA folder too.
The good: 27 years old, 1 car, not renting anymore.
The bad: Single income, only about $17k in retirement, and no FI date.
The ugly: 1 year ago I was doing much better but lost all possessions due to mold. It has been an emotional roller coaster.

Blog: http://bravelycontent.blogspot.com/

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12270 on: February 01, 2016, 02:15:50 PM »
the 20K bonus went straight to his honeymoon.  I could kill him.

Well in his defense, that must have been some honeymoon.


If he did it right, he was probably divorced by the end of it

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12271 on: February 01, 2016, 02:59:08 PM »
I'm sure this is not a new "overheard"....two CWs at a lunch for a 3rd co-worker who is retiring next week.  Both commented that they were going to be working forever.  I was all set to just smile and nod until one commented that saving for their kid's college education was what specifically was going to prevent retirement.  So of course at that point I had to ask how much she was going to be trying to put aside for retirement.  She didn't give a specific number but said she and her husband were just looking at being able to provide for the local public university and that projections were "scary".  I went and spent some time on google and found the projected cost of a 4 year public university education in 2030 (when her kid will be about 20)...it was $200k.  Which seems huge, but yeah, okay, I can see how it would get there, so presumably that's what she's aiming for.  But...unless she and her husband are planning on having a LOT of kids, this doesn't seem like an amount that would delay FI *forever* (at least not in the income bracket that CW, her husband, me, and my husband are in).  I really want to know what's driving this thinking....low savings rate or an insane level of desired safety margin?

Jeebus. Alternative solution: move to Quebec. McGill tuition is less than 4K/year for residents, all apartments are rent-controlled, and if you put 2.5k into an education savings account for your kid (RESP) the govt adds 700$ to that. Every year. There you go: university education funded in less than 10 years, saving only 2.5k/year.

I have no idea why some Americans are still talking about college at those prices. Unless you're going into an explicitly high-earning field with near-guaranteed placements, the debt load alone is hellish.

An STEM degree in a flyover state like mine is half that all inclusive - room and board plus transportation. Live at home, attend a local school and it's about $30K for everything for the entire degree. 

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12272 on: February 01, 2016, 03:07:07 PM »
the 20K bonus went straight to his honeymoon.  I could kill him.

Well in his defense, that must have been some honeymoon.


If he did it right, he was probably divorced by the end of it
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12273 on: February 01, 2016, 03:52:11 PM »
While not mustachian, it's not that hard to spend $20,000 on a honeymoon. We spent $11,000 on ours. We backpacked around Europe for a month. This included probably too many locations and too many plane rides, but we didn't live totally high on the hog.  And starting off with a week in Paris in a nice hotel and romantic dinners that I will remember for the rest of my life was well worth it.

Still, we saved 30% of our income that year.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12274 on: February 01, 2016, 06:09:59 PM »
While not mustachian, it's not that hard to spend $20,000 on a honeymoon. We spent $11,000 on ours. We backpacked around Europe for a month. This included probably too many locations and too many plane rides, but we didn't live totally high on the hog.  And starting off with a week in Paris in a nice hotel and romantic dinners that I will remember for the rest of my life was well worth it.

Still, we saved 30% of our income that year.

Gah!!  Depends on your income, really, and your expectations.  I see escalating expectations.  Maybe I'm just old, and got married when my spouse was in grad school.

Our honeymoon (a week in Antigua), was cheap.  And even now, a quick search tells me the equivalent week would be about $2400 (for two), and that's probably staying at a nicer place than we stayed.

I have more than one friend who got engaged on a $5k to 7k vacation, and then OF COURSE the honeymoon had to be BETTER!  And since the engagement was  a 2 week vacay, honeymoon had to be three!!  The honeymoons were at least $10k to $15k, because, if you aren't spending at least 20 hours on a plane, what's the point?


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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12275 on: February 01, 2016, 08:07:49 PM »
Honeymoon = spending thousands of dollars to fuck in exotic places.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12276 on: February 01, 2016, 09:29:45 PM »
Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit. To break the clearly signposted law and then complain about the well-known sanction being applied is just plain stupid.

Is it?  I'd argue blind adherence to laws as if they were sacrosanct is more stupid (and we rarely have speed cameras in the US). 

Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)

I'm not sure I'd go as far as 'rarely', though they are less common than red light cameras. Reference:  http://www.caranddriver.com/features/states-that-use-red-light-and-speed-cameras-to-monitor-your-driving

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12277 on: February 01, 2016, 10:03:45 PM »
I'm sure this is not a new "overheard"....two CWs at a lunch for a 3rd co-worker who is retiring next week.  Both commented that they were going to be working forever.  I was all set to just smile and nod until one commented that saving for their kid's college education was what specifically was going to prevent retirement.  So of course at that point I had to ask how much she was going to be trying to put aside for retirement.  She didn't give a specific number but said she and her husband were just looking at being able to provide for the local public university and that projections were "scary".  I went and spent some time on google and found the projected cost of a 4 year public university education in 2030 (when her kid will be about 20)...it was $200k.  Which seems huge, but yeah, okay, I can see how it would get there, so presumably that's what she's aiming for.  But...unless she and her husband are planning on having a LOT of kids, this doesn't seem like an amount that would delay FI *forever* (at least not in the income bracket that CW, her husband, me, and my husband are in).  I really want to know what's driving this thinking....low savings rate or an insane level of desired safety margin?

Jeebus. Alternative solution: move to Quebec. McGill tuition is less than 4K/year for residents, all apartments are rent-controlled, and if you put 2.5k into an education savings account for your kid (RESP) the govt adds 700$ to that. Every year. There you go: university education funded in less than 10 years, saving only 2.5k/year.

I have no idea why some Americans are still talking about college at those prices. Unless you're going into an explicitly high-earning field with near-guaranteed placements, the debt load alone is hellish.

An STEM degree in a flyover state like mine is half that all inclusive - room and board plus transportation. Live at home, attend a local school and it's about $30K for everything for the entire degree.

I think our local tuition/fees are currently something like $13k/yr, so living at home you could get out for around $50k right now.  My (very highly ranked) public alma mater would currently be about $40k for a 4-year degree if you lived at home, so also quite doable.  The $200k estimate I mentioned was a projection for 2030, and I believe did include room and board.  And I agree, US higher education costs are ridiculous and unsustainable.  We are seriously considering moving abroad as an alternative to saving for a US education.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12278 on: February 02, 2016, 08:44:01 AM »
While not mustachian, it's not that hard to spend $20,000 on a honeymoon. We spent $11,000 on ours. We backpacked around Europe for a month. This included probably too many locations and too many plane rides, but we didn't live totally high on the hog.  And starting off with a week in Paris in a nice hotel and romantic dinners that I will remember for the rest of my life was well worth it.

Still, we saved 30% of our income that year.

Gah!!  Depends on your income, really, and your expectations.  I see escalating expectations.  Maybe I'm just old, and got married when my spouse was in grad school.

Our honeymoon (a week in Antigua), was cheap.  And even now, a quick search tells me the equivalent week would be about $2400 (for two), and that's probably staying at a nicer place than we stayed.

I have more than one friend who got engaged on a $5k to 7k vacation, and then OF COURSE the honeymoon had to be BETTER!  And since the engagement was  a 2 week vacay, honeymoon had to be three!!  The honeymoons were at least $10k to $15k, because, if you aren't spending at least 20 hours on a plane, what's the point?

Our engagement weekend was camping at a national park. Sub-$150.

Our honeymoon was more or less in the same direction and cost us ~$250. Nice hotel, nice meals, back at work the following Monday. We missed maybe two days of work.

You know what? We had fun. We were so poor back then. Hated to spend much of the wedding gift money b/c we knew we needed more for our rented house than we needed a honeymoon weekend.

Its taken many years but we've had a few really nice and frugal vacations since then. I married a very special one that I am very thankful for. We've been through alot together. 

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12279 on: February 02, 2016, 01:13:34 PM »

 Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.
I am still trying to understand the 2nd part of the sentence.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12280 on: February 02, 2016, 01:18:13 PM »

 Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.
I am still trying to understand the 2nd part of the sentence.
Dying via acceleration = being struck by a large moving object. IOW, the force that it takes to change your inertia is what does you in.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12281 on: February 02, 2016, 01:23:08 PM »

 Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.
I am still trying to understand the 2nd part of the sentence.
Dying via acceleration = being struck by a large moving object. IOW, the force that it takes to change your inertia is what does you in.

That's one way.  Another is you sitting in something that accelerates faster than your body can handle--your brain literally smashes into the back of your skull.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12282 on: February 02, 2016, 01:27:07 PM »

 Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.
I am still trying to understand the 2nd part of the sentence.
Dying via acceleration = being struck by a large moving object. IOW, the force that it takes to change your inertia is what does you in.

That's one way.  Another is you sitting in something that accelerates faster than your body can handle--your brain literally smashes into the back of your skull.

Another method is to accelerate a part of your body faster that it can handle. Bullets are known to do this. In the extreme, so are particle colliders.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12283 on: February 02, 2016, 01:27:56 PM »

 Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.
I am still trying to understand the 2nd part of the sentence.
Dying via acceleration = being struck by a large moving object. IOW, the force that it takes to change your inertia is what does you in.
I understand the overall concept. Its just that highlighted part is not clear to me.
Not to nitpick on semantics, but staying stationary implies that a person not moving remains non-moving.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12284 on: February 02, 2016, 01:33:25 PM »

 Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.
I am still trying to understand the 2nd part of the sentence.
Dying via acceleration = being struck by a large moving object. IOW, the force that it takes to change your inertia is what does you in.
I understand the overall concept. Its just that highlighted part is not clear to me.
Not to nitpick on semantics, but staying stationary implies that a person not moving remains non-moving.
I believe they meant to say "becoming" as opposed to "staying" stationary.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12285 on: February 02, 2016, 01:41:15 PM »
No, Jeremy whatever's idea was becoming stationary.

I'm pointing out that staying stationary can kill you as well.

Imagine you're on a rocket, which launches at 99% the speed of light.  Your body's attempt to stay stationary, via inertia, is what kills you. 

It's the opposite of what kills you when you come to a sudden halt--that's your body's attempt to keep moving, via inertia, but something being in the way.  (Becoming stationary.)

In other words, it's the change of state from whatever you're at.

Whether it's staying or becoming, either way will kill you.  Jeremy only mentioned the one, and said it as an absolute, like that was the only thing.

It's fine, he was doing it to make a joke, I was just pointing out the inaccuracies.  Stuff's even funnier when it's true, but that unfortunately isn't fully true, it has other instances/exceptions.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12286 on: February 02, 2016, 01:51:57 PM »
Sweet, delicious foam.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12287 on: February 02, 2016, 02:17:49 PM »
No, Jeremy whatever's idea was becoming stationary.

I'm pointing out that staying stationary can kill you as well.

Imagine you're on a rocket, which launches at 99% the speed of light.  Your body's attempt to stay stationary, via inertia, is what kills you. 

It's the opposite of what kills you when you come to a sudden halt--that's your body's attempt to keep moving, via inertia, but something being in the way.  (Becoming stationary.)

In other words, it's the change of state from whatever you're at.

Whether it's staying or becoming, either way will kill you.  Jeremy only mentioned the one, and said it as an absolute, like that was the only thing.

It's fine, he was doing it to make a joke, I was just pointing out the inaccuracies.  Stuff's even funnier when it's true, but that unfortunately isn't fully true, it has other instances/exceptions.

In the first case, the final outcome is the body ends up at 99% of light speed suddenly. Its not staying (different from attempting to be) stationary. In the second case, its becoming stationary which is the outcome.

Any how I get what you are saying. I don't argue there.

Also I think what Jeremy said is right. It has a context and we can infer it.
If we say there are omissions in Jeremy's statement, then we have to point out all the ways a person can die, such as huge +ve acceleration like you pointed, irreversible increase in the entropy of human body (some body got cut into two pieces) ...

That is why physics and typical english don't mix well. One day, one of my fellow grad student was posing a physics puzzle  problem during a coffee hour with the faculty and the faculty ripped him apart pointing out the incompleteness/inaccuracies in stating the puzzle.
The lesson I learnt was be wary of posing a puzzle to physics department faculty.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12288 on: February 02, 2016, 02:23:26 PM »
Quote
That is why physics and typical english don't mix well. One day, one of my fellow grad student was posing a physics puzzle  problem during a coffee hour with the faculty and the faculty ripped him apart pointing out the incompleteness/inaccuracies in stating the puzzle.
The lesson I learnt was be wary of posing a puzzle to physics department faculty.

I sometimes wonder if there's something about German that made the country produce so many physicists ~100 years ago.  I think having four cases to rely on can really make the relationship between objects more obvious, and we have to use more awkward constructions in English to communicate the same concepts.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12289 on: February 02, 2016, 02:27:40 PM »
Observe as various portions of this plane suddenly becomes stationary


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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12290 on: February 02, 2016, 02:35:16 PM »
Observe as various portions of this plane suddenly becomes stationary

Make sure your nouns and verbs agree. /grammarnazi
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12291 on: February 02, 2016, 03:25:56 PM »
While not mustachian, it's not that hard to spend $20,000 on a honeymoon. We spent $11,000 on ours. We backpacked around Europe for a month. This included probably too many locations and too many plane rides, but we didn't live totally high on the hog.  And starting off with a week in Paris in a nice hotel and romantic dinners that I will remember for the rest of my life was well worth it.

Still, we saved 30% of our income that year.

Gah!!  Depends on your income, really, and your expectations.  I see escalating expectations.  Maybe I'm just old, and got married when my spouse was in grad school.

Our honeymoon (a week in Antigua), was cheap.  And even now, a quick search tells me the equivalent week would be about $2400 (for two), and that's probably staying at a nicer place than we stayed.

I have more than one friend who got engaged on a $5k to 7k vacation, and then OF COURSE the honeymoon had to be BETTER!  And since the engagement was  a 2 week vacay, honeymoon had to be three!!  The honeymoons were at least $10k to $15k, because, if you aren't spending at least 20 hours on a plane, what's the point?

Our engagement weekend was camping at a national park. Sub-$150.

Our honeymoon was more or less in the same direction and cost us ~$250. Nice hotel, nice meals, back at work the following Monday. We missed maybe two days of work.

You know what? We had fun. We were so poor back then. Hated to spend much of the wedding gift money b/c we knew we needed more for our rented house than we needed a honeymoon weekend.

Its taken many years but we've had a few really nice and frugal vacations since then. I married a very special one that I am very thankful for. We've been through alot together.

We still haven't done a honeymoon yet, going on 7 years.  We might think about it when we retire in a couple more years.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12292 on: February 02, 2016, 04:00:35 PM »
It's fine, he was doing it to make a joke, I was just pointing out the inaccuracies.  Stuff's even funnier when it's true, but that unfortunately isn't fully true, it has other instances/exceptions.

It IS true on face value.  You're just adding another dimension.  Being at speed does not kill.  Suddenly becoming stationary does.  Yes, acceleration can also kill you, but so can being shot in the face, or screwing up autoerotic asphyxiation, or ass cancer, he doesn't have to name every other way you can die to be correct. 
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12293 on: February 02, 2016, 04:02:54 PM »

We still haven't done a honeymoon yet, going on 7 years.  We might think about it when we retire in a couple more years.

Best honeymoon ever.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12294 on: February 02, 2016, 04:22:55 PM »
It's fine, he was doing it to make a joke, I was just pointing out the inaccuracies.  Stuff's even funnier when it's true, but that unfortunately isn't fully true, it has other instances/exceptions.

It IS true on face value.  You're just adding another dimension.  Being at speed does not kill.  Suddenly becoming stationary does.  Yes, acceleration can also kill you, but so can being shot in the face, or screwing up autoerotic asphyxiation, or ass cancer, he doesn't have to name every other way you can die to be correct.

For those interested in knowing how much acceleration a human body can tolerate  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force#Human_tolerance_of_g-force
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 04:38:19 PM by mbk »

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12295 on: February 02, 2016, 08:12:42 PM »
Observe as various portions of this plane suddenly becomes stationary

Make sure your nouns and verbs agree. /grammarnazi

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12296 on: February 02, 2016, 08:59:51 PM »
My co worker and I make bank for being blue collar uneducated truck drivers .We gross 85,000 to 89,000 a year.This Christmas we got a bonus of 2k.the boss split the bonus into 2 checks over 2 weeks to minimize the tax hit.no problem for me I hate losing $$ and now save 40 60% a week.well the coworker was all type of pissed off about it(apparently he already expected it and had it spent).
 this on top of the $35k trucks the boss gave us 2 years ago so we dont ask for a raise or bitch about long hours.the trucks have nothing to do with work other than driving to work.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12297 on: February 02, 2016, 09:40:09 PM »
My co worker and I make bank for being blue collar uneducated truck drivers .We gross 85,000 to 89,000 a year.This Christmas we got a bonus of 2k.the boss split the bonus into 2 checks over 2 weeks to minimize the tax hit.no problem for me I hate losing $$ and now save 40 60% a week.well the coworker was all type of pissed off about it(apparently he already expected it and had it spent).
 this on top of the $35k trucks the boss gave us 2 years ago so we dont ask for a raise or bitch about long hours.the trucks have nothing to do with work other than driving to work.

Splitting the bonus checks doesn't affect your tax liability if the total amount stays the same...

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12298 on: February 02, 2016, 09:52:40 PM »
My co worker and I make bank for being blue collar uneducated truck drivers .We gross 85,000 to 89,000 a year.This Christmas we got a bonus of 2k.the boss split the bonus into 2 checks over 2 weeks to minimize the tax hit.no problem for me I hate losing $$ and now save 40 60% a week.well the coworker was all type of pissed off about it(apparently he already expected it and had it spent).
 this on top of the $35k trucks the boss gave us 2 years ago so we dont ask for a raise or bitch about long hours.the trucks have nothing to do with work other than driving to work.

Splitting the bonus checks doesn't affect your tax liability if the total amount stays the same...

However the deduction typically is higher.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12299 on: February 02, 2016, 11:27:30 PM »
It's fine, he was doing it to make a joke, I was just pointing out the inaccuracies.  Stuff's even funnier when it's true, but that unfortunately isn't fully true, it has other instances/exceptions.

It IS true on face value.  You're just adding another dimension.  Being at speed does not kill.  Suddenly becoming stationary does.  Yes, acceleration can also kill you, but so can being shot in the face, or screwing up autoerotic asphyxiation, or ass cancer, he doesn't have to name every other way you can die to be correct.

My point, which you're still missing, is that the sudden change in speed kills. Not just suddenly becoming stationary.

Suddenly becoming moving can also kill.  Or staying moving.

It's true, speed doesn't necessarily kill.  It's not true that it's simply "becoming stationary" is the (only) thing that does.

But again, it was a joke.

If he was accurate, instead of trying to be funny, it'd be: "Speed doesn't kill.  But suddenly becoming stationary is one thing that does."

Something like that.
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