Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 4746861 times)

gaja

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12200 on: January 28, 2016, 01:03:55 PM »
Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)
One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AFn7MiJz_s

You obey the traffic lights? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU35XlTkLnA
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GuitarStv

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12201 on: January 28, 2016, 01:49:00 PM »
Interesting results of Montana's speed limit experiment.

https://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

Ahhhh yeah but why bother with evidence when we can argue instead!

I read the article that was provided, but didn't find it particularly enlightening.  Apparently the problems with it eluded you, so let me list some:

"The National Motorists Association is a membership-based organization dedicated to protecting the rights of the motoring public."  I'm not surprised that they published an article calling for removal of all speed limits on roads.  They also campaign against seatbelt laws.



Now let's look at the 'data' that we were provided:

Here we have the fatalities for traffic accidents in years without speed limits:
94    111
95    105
96    114
97    140
98    113
99    102

And a sample size of 1 with speed limits:
'00    143


How was the limit enforced?

How much did the number of cars on the road and miles driven been increase between '00 and '99?

How much did the number of cars on the road and miles driven been increase between '00 and '99?

Was '00 just a bad year like '97, or did this trend continue into the future?

What is the prevalence of accidents in Montana compared to the national average when there was no speed limit enforced, or compared to states with lower speed limits?  According to the data available from this website, Montana has consistently been one of the least safe places to drive in the US from 2005 - 2013 (http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/state-by-state-overview/2013)


The 'data' given in that article doesn't really prove anything close to a trend.  It seems like it has been cherry picked to support the writer's agenda.  If someone can find me some data for the following years, I'd appreciate it.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12202 on: January 28, 2016, 02:18:09 PM »
GuitarStv, you're right. But you're also wrong.

First of all, speed does not kill. If it did, no astronaut would make it out alive and landspeed records would not be in the 700 MPH's. It is the difference in speed that kills; moreover, it is the highest average difference in speed that kills.

There is greater aggregate danger created from someone going too slow. And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.

Well if you are traveling at 700 mph relative to the entire earth, the average speed differential is very close to 700mph.  Hitting almost anything else on earth would kill you, and I'm not even sure hitting another 700mph car would be ok

But yeah, it's the stop that kills you

myhotrs

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12203 on: January 28, 2016, 02:41:59 PM »
So, anyone who doesn't work at Highway Patrol want to write something?

Speed discussion guys want to start a thread or PM or something? I think we're moving a little off-topic.
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runningthroughFIRE

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12204 on: January 28, 2016, 03:00:16 PM »
So, anyone who doesn't work at Highway Patrol want to write something?

Speed discussion guys want to start a thread or PM or something? I think we're moving a little off-topic.
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dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12205 on: January 28, 2016, 03:45:44 PM »
So, anyone who doesn't work at Highway Patrol want to write something?

Speed discussion guys want to start a thread or PM or something? I think we're moving a little off-topic.

Any funny stories from your job at the Topic Police?

With This Herring

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12206 on: January 28, 2016, 07:10:04 PM »
I have kind of a sad one.

Over many discussions with one of the senior (equity) partners at my most recent employer (public accounting firm), I've come to the conclusion that he has very little in his life except work.

When he talks to the newer staffers, he mentions how much better the money is in public accounting.  He talks about working your way up in the firm to reach partner, "putting in the hours" and such.  He and his fellow partners did work hard to get to where they are.

What comes out more slowly is that they are all pretty miserable.  Half of them are divorced, and one of them is multiple times divorced.  During Tax Season they work 80-hour weeks.  During the balance of the year their weeks vary from 40 to 60 hours.  Their biggest clients have the partners' personal cell numbers and don't hesitate to use them.  They are always on call, even on vacations during times with no tax deadlines.

What does this partner have to show for this?  He has a big, fancy house in Rich Part of Town.  He eats primarily restaurant food.  He has had Big Boat for going on 5 years now (looking it up, Big Boat probably cost almost $300K), which he has used a small handful of times.  He has a wife who works similarly excessive hours.  They have a few kids (who raised them?).  And now the health effects of his job are increasing more and more.  Wife wants him to retire.  He has no idea what he would do if he retired.  All his mental focus is centered around this business.

The partners don't understand the mentality of staffers who are NOT shooting for partner.  They seem to miss the value of staff who are willing to reach a mid-manager level and stay there.  They see it as disloyalty/slacking if a staffer wants to always be out the door on time (not early) to have dinner with family, even if staffer comes in early to keep up the hours.  And thus, only "superstars" who put in stupid-long, visible, late hours get noticed and rewarded.  Thus, turnover is really high.
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Larabeth

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12207 on: January 28, 2016, 11:06:51 PM »
"When I win the lottery ______"

These aren't people well on their way to independence that are having a little side entertainment.  These are people that live in the Birmingham, AL area and drive to Georgia or Tennessee to get lottery tickets.  But then they complain about their kids college and how much that will cost them. 

zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12208 on: January 29, 2016, 07:01:05 AM »
The partners don't understand the mentality of staffers who are NOT shooting for partner.  They seem to miss the value of staff who are willing to reach a mid-manager level and stay there.  They see it as disloyalty/slacking if a staffer wants to always be out the door on time (not early) to have dinner with family, even if staffer comes in early to keep up the hours.  And thus, only "superstars" who put in stupid-long, visible, late hours get noticed and rewarded.  Thus, turnover is really high.
I can't figure out why this is such a sticking point. The value of an employee's time and the amount of it that they want to sell to the company are two different issues.

"When I win the lottery ______"

These aren't people well on their way to independence that are having a little side entertainment.  These are people that live in the Birmingham, AL area and drive to Georgia or Tennessee to get lottery tickets.  But then they complain about their kids college and how much that will cost them. 
*waves at you from the northern state line*

Any funny stories from your job at the Topic Police?
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Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12209 on: January 29, 2016, 07:56:40 AM »
The partners don't understand the mentality of staffers who are NOT shooting for partner.  They seem to miss the value of staff who are willing to reach a mid-manager level and stay there.  They see it as disloyalty/slacking if a staffer wants to always be out the door on time (not early) to have dinner with family, even if staffer comes in early to keep up the hours.  And thus, only "superstars" who put in stupid-long, visible, late hours get noticed and rewarded.  Thus, turnover is really high.
I can't figure out why this is such a sticking point. The value of an employee's time and the amount of it that they want to sell to the company are two different issues.

In certain businesses, such as public accounting, the business is essentially selling the time.  So yes, all things being equal, employee A who wants to sell 2080 hours is less valuable than employee B who wants to sell 2500.  And I don't get why rewarding guys who put in more hours is met with anger or disbelief.  Why shouldn't it be like that?  Work/life balance is just that, a balance.  If you want to spend more time on "life" the work part gets shortchanged.  There's nothing wrong with making the decision to do that, but it's a little disingenuous to not want to work as much as another and still want the same perks/promotions/etc.
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zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12210 on: January 29, 2016, 08:11:50 AM »
The partners don't understand the mentality of staffers who are NOT shooting for partner.  They seem to miss the value of staff who are willing to reach a mid-manager level and stay there.  They see it as disloyalty/slacking if a staffer wants to always be out the door on time (not early) to have dinner with family, even if staffer comes in early to keep up the hours.  And thus, only "superstars" who put in stupid-long, visible, late hours get noticed and rewarded.  Thus, turnover is really high.
I can't figure out why this is such a sticking point. The value of an employee's time and the amount of it that they want to sell to the company are two different issues.

In certain businesses, such as public accounting, the business is essentially selling the time.  So yes, all things being equal, employee A who wants to sell 2080 hours is less valuable than employee B who wants to sell 2500.  And I don't get why rewarding guys who put in more hours is met with anger or disbelief.  Why shouldn't it be like that?  Work/life balance is just that, a balance.  If you want to spend more time on "life" the work part gets shortchanged.  There's nothing wrong with making the decision to do that, but it's a little disingenuous to not want to work as much as another and still want the same perks/promotions/etc.
They're still making the same amount per hour, and arguably more per hour in the long run, from a guy who does quality work for 40 hours than one who overworks himself. The research data is out there on maximum vs. optimum work hours. Wanna sell more hours, get more people.

The point of a good work-life balance is to deliver the best value on both sides, not just to limit one. That's what workaholics fail to understand. I mean, as WTHerring said, the imbalance produces high turnover, which costs companies money. Yet they fail to factor that in, because their mindset is fucked.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 08:13:35 AM by zephyr911 »
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zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12211 on: January 29, 2016, 08:15:45 AM »
Oh, and I wasn't suggesting people who do 40 hours and go home on time should get equal consideration for promotion, or that partners shouldn't favor workaholics for advancement. I specifically questioned just the idea that people who don't consistently work OT or otherwise go the extra mile are treated as inferior and disloyal.
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HairyUpperLip

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12212 on: January 29, 2016, 08:17:40 AM »
Hey Mister, TOPIC DRIFT KILLS! I saw a study that shows 30% more Internet users commit suicide in threads driven o/t by foamy black box trolls.

I read another article that suggested reading the article while driving above posted speeds and dodging people driving below posted speed limits, this article claimed that 47.35% of gun owners never cause car accidents.

Source - NRA.

golden1

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12213 on: January 29, 2016, 08:21:00 AM »
Ehhhh...  I'd argue that if you are working 80 hours, they likely aren't all productive hours due to fatigue, unhappiness, and loss of focus.  Most of the time when I see people who work a lot of hours I generally think they aren't being very efficient and are probably wasting a lot of time. 

zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12214 on: January 29, 2016, 08:28:46 AM »
Ehhhh...  I'd argue that if you are working 80 hours, they likely aren't all productive hours due to fatigue, unhappiness, and loss of focus.  Most of the time when I see people who work a lot of hours I generally think they aren't being very efficient and are probably wasting a lot of time.
...and lest our musings be dismissed as mere speculation, I present... EVIDENCE.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/01/26/working-more-than-50-hours-makes-you-less-productive.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/working-more-than-40-hours-a-week-is-useless-2012-3
http://www.paceproductivity.com/files/The_Inefficiency_of_Overtime.pdf
http://www.del-mar.com/Templates/Overtime%20and%20Productivity.pdf
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HairyUpperLip

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12215 on: January 29, 2016, 08:34:30 AM »
Ehhhh...  I'd argue that if you are working 80 hours, they likely aren't all productive hours due to fatigue, unhappiness, and loss of focus.  Most of the time when I see people who work a lot of hours I generally think they aren't being very efficient and are probably wasting a lot of time.

A lot of my team mates that seem to be in the office after hours tend to spend most of the day socializing and bullshitting. No surprise they "stay late" to get things done.

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12216 on: January 29, 2016, 08:35:17 AM »
Ehhhh...  I'd argue that if you are working 80 hours, they likely aren't all productive hours due to fatigue, unhappiness, and loss of focus.  Most of the time when I see people who work a lot of hours I generally think they aren't being very efficient and are probably wasting a lot of time.

Quite possibly, but they're wasting BILLABLE time.  I agree, if you are interested in getting an effective project done, sitting everyone in a room for 80 hour weeks is dumb.  But if you want to maximize hourly rate * hours billed, it kind of is the way to get the most bang for your buck.  Only works until the customer wises up, but who are they going to go to, the guys down the street doing the same thing?


(not defending the practice, necessarily, but framing it so we can understand the motivations)
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Tabaxus

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12217 on: January 29, 2016, 08:36:57 AM »
The partners don't understand the mentality of staffers who are NOT shooting for partner.  They seem to miss the value of staff who are willing to reach a mid-manager level and stay there.  They see it as disloyalty/slacking if a staffer wants to always be out the door on time (not early) to have dinner with family, even if staffer comes in early to keep up the hours.  And thus, only "superstars" who put in stupid-long, visible, late hours get noticed and rewarded.  Thus, turnover is really high.
I can't figure out why this is such a sticking point. The value of an employee's time and the amount of it that they want to sell to the company are two different issues.

In certain businesses, such as public accounting, the business is essentially selling the time.  So yes, all things being equal, employee A who wants to sell 2080 hours is less valuable than employee B who wants to sell 2500.  And I don't get why rewarding guys who put in more hours is met with anger or disbelief.  Why shouldn't it be like that?  Work/life balance is just that, a balance.  If you want to spend more time on "life" the work part gets shortchanged.  There's nothing wrong with making the decision to do that, but it's a little disingenuous to not want to work as much as another and still want the same perks/promotions/etc.
They're still making the same amount per hour, and arguably more per hour in the long run, from a guy who does quality work for 40 hours than one who overworks himself. The research data is out there on maximum vs. optimum work hours. Wanna sell more hours, get more people.

The point of a good work-life balance is to deliver the best value on both sides, not just to limit one. That's what workaholics fail to understand. I mean, as WTHerring said, the imbalance produces high turnover, which costs companies money. Yet they fail to factor that in, because their mindset is fucked.

That ignores overhead cost of additional people (which can be  extremely significant, because actual compensation per hour worked tends to decline in most of these jobs and increased personnel has various other costs); slower development of technical skills (it's absolutely true that efficiency drops off, but until you're at ridiculous hours, it doesn't go to zero); lack of sufficiently qualified people (firm I'm at has $25k-50k referrak bonuses for a ton of positions right now, but can't find the right people); slower client development; increased need to lay people off when work slows down; and various other factors.  "Just hire more people" isn't a sufficient solution.

Also, unless clients cut back the hours/compensation (some are getting better about this, some aren't), it's no skin off the company's back if efficiency isn't at peak.

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12218 on: January 29, 2016, 08:48:51 AM »
They're still making the same amount per hour, and arguably more per hour in the long run, from a guy who does quality work for 40 hours than one who overworks himself. The research data is out there on maximum vs. optimum work hours. Wanna sell more hours, get more people.

No, they're selling hours worked, period (in public accounting and big law).  You sell more hours, you make more money. 

Quote
The point of a good work-life balance is to deliver the best value on both sides, not just to limit one. That's what workaholics fail to understand. I mean, as WTHerring said, the imbalance produces high turnover, which costs companies money. Yet they fail to factor that in, because their mindset is fucked.

In public accounting (and big law) they absolutely factor it in, and plan on it.  They hire a zillion fresh college grads, and expect a certain (large) percentage to leave at every annual step.  The workers work their asses off, get a nice resume, and hopefully slide out into a cushier corporate or boutique firm job after a few painful years, and the firm knows there are always a nice fresh crop of college grads hungry for the experience ready to slide into their place.  The entire business model is built on this.  It sucks in some respects, but you don't HAVE to play the game. 

Also, generally you are busting your ass early on in your life/career, and if you're smart you can bank a ton of money because you don't have time for much else (and if you're on the road you have almost no expenses).  You slide out around 28/29, take that corporate management role for $100k, and slash your hours worked. 
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Tabaxus

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12219 on: January 29, 2016, 10:03:27 AM »
They're still making the same amount per hour, and arguably more per hour in the long run, from a guy who does quality work for 40 hours than one who overworks himself. The research data is out there on maximum vs. optimum work hours. Wanna sell more hours, get more people.

No, they're selling hours worked, period (in public accounting and big law).  You sell more hours, you make more money. 

Quote
The point of a good work-life balance is to deliver the best value on both sides, not just to limit one. That's what workaholics fail to understand. I mean, as WTHerring said, the imbalance produces high turnover, which costs companies money. Yet they fail to factor that in, because their mindset is fucked.

In public accounting (and big law) they absolutely factor it in, and plan on it.  They hire a zillion fresh college grads, and expect a certain (large) percentage to leave at every annual step.  The workers work their asses off, get a nice resume, and hopefully slide out into a cushier corporate or boutique firm job after a few painful years, and the firm knows there are always a nice fresh crop of college grads hungry for the experience ready to slide into their place.  The entire business model is built on this.  It sucks in some respects, but you don't HAVE to play the game. 

Also, generally you are busting your ass early on in your life/career, and if you're smart you can bank a ton of money because you don't have time for much else (and if you're on the road you have almost no expenses).  You slide out around 28/29, take that corporate management role for $100k, and slash your hours worked.

I know a ton of people who ended up with a rude awakening when they shifted from biglaw to in-house, took the giant money hit, aaand.... the hours didn't actually improve for them nearly enough to justify the pay hit. 

I'm holding onto my biglaw job for dear life as long as they'll keep me.  Which probably isn't too much longer, because I'm approaching the "up or out" years, but banking money in the meantime to buy that cardboard box I've always wanted...

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12220 on: January 29, 2016, 10:08:31 AM »
They're still making the same amount per hour, and arguably more per hour in the long run, from a guy who does quality work for 40 hours than one who overworks himself. The research data is out there on maximum vs. optimum work hours. Wanna sell more hours, get more people.

No, they're selling hours worked, period (in public accounting and big law).  You sell more hours, you make more money. 

Quote
The point of a good work-life balance is to deliver the best value on both sides, not just to limit one. That's what workaholics fail to understand. I mean, as WTHerring said, the imbalance produces high turnover, which costs companies money. Yet they fail to factor that in, because their mindset is fucked.

In public accounting (and big law) they absolutely factor it in, and plan on it.  They hire a zillion fresh college grads, and expect a certain (large) percentage to leave at every annual step.  The workers work their asses off, get a nice resume, and hopefully slide out into a cushier corporate or boutique firm job after a few painful years, and the firm knows there are always a nice fresh crop of college grads hungry for the experience ready to slide into their place.  The entire business model is built on this.  It sucks in some respects, but you don't HAVE to play the game. 

Also, generally you are busting your ass early on in your life/career, and if you're smart you can bank a ton of money because you don't have time for much else (and if you're on the road you have almost no expenses).  You slide out around 28/29, take that corporate management role for $100k, and slash your hours worked.

I know a ton of people who ended up with a rude awakening when they shifted from biglaw to in-house, took the giant money hit, aaand.... the hours didn't actually improve for them nearly enough to justify the pay hit. 

Do you do anything that could transfer to the gov't?   My sister left Big Law for a gov't agency, near the top of the GS scale.  she points out that her year group is now getting bonuses that are approximately her whole annual salary, but she works a pretty strict 40-45 hour work week so she's happy.
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Gondolin

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12221 on: January 29, 2016, 10:14:18 AM »
Quote
Hey Mister, TOPIC DRIFT KILLS! I saw a study that shows 30% more Internet users commit suicide in threads driven o/t by foamy black box trolls

Hey! It's not Topic Drift that kills! It's Topic Drift DIFFERENTIAL. If all the topics are drifting at the same high rate, that's way safer than having a bunch of fast drifting topics trying to dodge a few slow drifting ones.


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GuitarStv

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12222 on: January 29, 2016, 10:21:28 AM »
What seems to be needed is a strict upper limit applied to topic drift for the safety of all involved in this thread.

Threshkin

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12223 on: January 29, 2016, 10:32:03 AM »
What seems to be needed is a strict upper limit applied to topic drift for the safety of all involved in this thread.

We need a topic drift algorithm that will automatically flag posts exceeding preset parameters.  Some sort of black (or orange) box system.

mm1970

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12224 on: January 29, 2016, 10:49:15 AM »
Ehhhh...  I'd argue that if you are working 80 hours, they likely aren't all productive hours due to fatigue, unhappiness, and loss of focus.  Most of the time when I see people who work a lot of hours I generally think they aren't being very efficient and are probably wasting a lot of time.

A lot of my team mates that seem to be in the office after hours tend to spend most of the day socializing and bullshitting. No surprise they "stay late" to get things done.

This is surely an interesting topic to me.  In one of my previous jobs, we were required to work at least 45 hours a week.  Actually more than one, but the Navy doesn't count.

The hours weren't necessarily set, and it wasn't really written down in company policy (because that's illegal for exempt employees), but I did find it on a power point file.  As my boss put it: "Studies show that people aren't productive 100% of the time.  However, if you are required to work an extra 5 hours a week, an extra hour a day, we KNOW we are getting a good solid hour there, because why else would you be working late if you aren't working??"  Ummm...many bosses at the job were like that and...honestly during my first review he dinged me because our VP and I would chat for the 5 minutes before our meeting started once a week.  "If you want to talk about personal stuff with people, you can do it for a few minutes first thing in the morning, or right before you leave.  But it's not good to do it in the middle of the day because it's distracting you from your work."  I shit you not.  Rather than argue (like wrestling with a pig), I just said "um, okay". 

I don't think he's that bad anymore, but I really don't know for sure.

In any event, I found efficiency to decline with increasing hours.  There was a period of time when I was working 32 hours a week, and they were solid hours.  I worked with one or two men who worked 50-60 hours a week ("worked" is a strong word), and they liked to TALK.  I would cut them off.  One of them made a comment loudly every Friday when I left at 4:30 to pick up my kids (but only if the boss were around), "Must be nice to leave at 4:30".  I said "Ed, it's not my fault that I get more done in 32 hours than you get done in 50."

Other studies have shown that working late is what helps get you promotions.  "Face time".  It doesn't matter if you actually get more done, the boss sees you working late.  The boss doesn't see me come in at 7:30 am.  It depends on the boss, obviously, but one of my previous bosses worked exactly this way - and I opted out of playing that game. 

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12225 on: January 29, 2016, 11:24:21 AM »
First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Joggernot

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12226 on: January 29, 2016, 12:55:17 PM »
I think I read that article.


Is that from the Onion?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12227 on: January 29, 2016, 01:35:06 PM »

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12228 on: January 29, 2016, 01:48:37 PM »
No, they're selling hours worked, period (in public accounting and big law).  You sell more hours, you make more money. 
You don't think doing better quality work, on average, will ever result in the company getting a better rep that leads to a) more work, or b) better rates?
Quote
In public accounting (and big law) they absolutely factor it in, and plan on it.  They hire a zillion fresh college grads, and expect a certain (large) percentage to leave at every annual step.  The workers work their asses off, get a nice resume, and hopefully slide out into a cushier corporate or boutique firm job after a few painful years, and the firm knows there are always a nice fresh crop of college grads hungry for the experience ready to slide into their place.  The entire business model is built on this.  It sucks in some respects, but you don't HAVE to play the game. 
I understand that they accept turnover as a reality. I'm saying it seems shortsighted to count on always training new people instead of having policies that don't make the workplace a meat grinder. Do you think the above approach is actually sound and healthy?
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JordanOfGilead

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12229 on: January 29, 2016, 01:51:48 PM »


Guess again?

Awesome.
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Joggernot

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12230 on: January 29, 2016, 02:04:30 PM »


Guess again?

Awesome.
Yep, that was great.  Gotta save it and send to the kids!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 02:08:57 PM by Joggernot »

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12231 on: January 29, 2016, 02:08:51 PM »
Wow, I am loving the parody news clippings.

The partners don't understand the mentality of staffers who are NOT shooting for partner.  They seem to miss the value of staff who are willing to reach a mid-manager level and stay there.  They see it as disloyalty/slacking if a staffer wants to always be out the door on time (not early) to have dinner with family, even if staffer comes in early to keep up the hours.  And thus, only "superstars" who put in stupid-long, visible, late hours get noticed and rewarded.  Thus, turnover is really high.
I can't figure out why this is such a sticking point. The value of an employee's time and the amount of it that they want to sell to the company are two different issues.

In certain businesses, such as public accounting, the business is essentially selling the time.  So yes, all things being equal, employee A who wants to sell 2080 hours is less valuable than employee B who wants to sell 2500.  And I don't get why rewarding guys who put in more hours is met with anger or disbelief.  Why shouldn't it be like that?  Work/life balance is just that, a balance.  If you want to spend more time on "life" the work part gets shortchanged.  There's nothing wrong with making the decision to do that, but it's a little disingenuous to not want to work as much as another and still want the same perks/promotions/etc.

Employee A, who wants to have evenings with family, would work 6 AM to 6 PM.  Employee B, who wanted to become a partner, would work 8:30 AM to 8:30 PM.  Employee A gets treated poorly because A left in time for dinner.  Employee B gets praised because B is "putting in the hours."

And, before the question comes up, of the employees that fit either the "A" or "B" category, it was only one of the B employees who was known to spend MASSIVE amounts of time on personal things.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12232 on: January 29, 2016, 02:13:27 PM »
First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Whoever Jeremy Clarkson is, he has a poor understanding of physics.

GForces from acceleration can kill, even without a sudden deceleration (though we can argue about what actually kills and such).
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12233 on: January 29, 2016, 02:15:20 PM »
First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Whoever Jeremy Clarkson is, he has a poor understanding of physics.

GForces from acceleration can kill, even without a sudden deceleration (though we can argue about what actually kills and such).

Speed =/= acceleration, if you want to be technical about it.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12234 on: January 29, 2016, 02:25:57 PM »
First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Whoever Jeremy Clarkson is, he has a poor understanding of physics.

GForces from acceleration can kill, even without a sudden deceleration (though we can argue about what actually kills and such).

Speed =/= acceleration, if you want to be technical about it.

http://www.jeremyclarkson.co.uk/jc-top-gear-quotes/

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12235 on: January 29, 2016, 02:37:17 PM »
The partners don't understand the mentality of staffers who are NOT shooting for partner.  They seem to miss the value of staff who are willing to reach a mid-manager level and stay there.  They see it as disloyalty/slacking if a staffer wants to always be out the door on time (not early) to have dinner with family, even if staffer comes in early to keep up the hours.  And thus, only "superstars" who put in stupid-long, visible, late hours get noticed and rewarded.  Thus, turnover is really high.
I can't figure out why this is such a sticking point. The value of an employee's time and the amount of it that they want to sell to the company are two different issues.

In certain businesses, such as public accounting, the business is essentially selling the time.  So yes, all things being equal, employee A who wants to sell 2080 hours is less valuable than employee B who wants to sell 2500.  And I don't get why rewarding guys who put in more hours is met with anger or disbelief.  Why shouldn't it be like that?  Work/life balance is just that, a balance.  If you want to spend more time on "life" the work part gets shortchanged.  There's nothing wrong with making the decision to do that, but it's a little disingenuous to not want to work as much as another and still want the same perks/promotions/etc.
They're still making the same amount per hour, and arguably more per hour in the long run, from a guy who does quality work for 40 hours than one who overworks himself. The research data is out there on maximum vs. optimum work hours. Wanna sell more hours, get more people.

The point of a good work-life balance is to deliver the best value on both sides, not just to limit one. That's what workaholics fail to understand. I mean, as WTHerring said, the imbalance produces high turnover, which costs companies money. Yet they fail to factor that in, because their mindset is fucked.

That ignores overhead cost of additional people (which can be  extremely significant, because actual compensation per hour worked tends to decline in most of these jobs and increased personnel has various other costs); slower development of technical skills (it's absolutely true that efficiency drops off, but until you're at ridiculous hours, it doesn't go to zero); lack of sufficiently qualified people (firm I'm at has $25k-50k referrak bonuses for a ton of positions right now, but can't find the right people); slower client development; increased need to lay people off when work slows down; and various other factors.  "Just hire more people" isn't a sufficient solution.

Also, unless clients cut back the hours/compensation (some are getting better about this, some aren't), it's no skin off the company's back if efficiency isn't at peak.

Yup... As someone who is part time at a law firm I can already see them getting antsy about my overhead and lowered billable targets.  I figure at $72/sqft/mo in SF, my office is costing them around $80k/year.  I'm trying to feel out whether this can get me official work from home approval (typically very frowned upon here).  That's actually the biggest one, since I do believe the other costs scale pretty well.  I have an assistant, but since we share assistants here that should scale decently. 

I'm considering trying in house for a year just to see if I love it (I don't have high hopes for this, but figure why not if the alternative is being FIRE).  But I think I would have to work more, and maybe get paid the same.  At this point even part time I'm making the same amount as a first year, which is a ton of money.

I'm also feeling the burn of AMT, though, wondering if I should cut my hours further but I just don't think it'll fly with this employer.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12236 on: January 29, 2016, 03:49:44 PM »
Other studies have shown that working late is what helps get you promotions.  "Face time".  It doesn't matter if you actually get more done, the boss sees you working late.  The boss doesn't see me come in at 7:30 am.  It depends on the boss, obviously, but one of my previous bosses worked exactly this way - and I opted out of playing that game.

I've sort of moved to the opposite approach, getting to work later by doing my exercise in the morning.  I end up getting off at the same time because of the nature of my job things come in late morning early afternoon that they want done and usually pushes me to being here later than I want to be.  I get told to go home more often now and waste much less time in the morning when work hasn't started up quite yet.

I should also note that I have not worked a job that requires the reporting of hours since 2004.  I also do not work at any kind of firm that relies on billable hours but rather finished products in the software industry.  I have previously worked at places where I had to punch in and out for everything, including bathroom breaks, in some convoluted system and have sworn a blood oath to the old gods and the new while circled about in flames cast from the heart of mount doom upon a hammer which was forged in the heart of a dying star that I will never work at such a place again.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12237 on: January 29, 2016, 04:36:53 PM »
I have previously worked at places where I had to punch in and out for everything, including bathroom breaks, in some convoluted system and have sworn a blood oath to the old gods and the new while circled about in flames cast from the heart of mount doom upon a hammer which was forged in the heart of a dying star that I will never work at such a place again.

Awesome geeky references. I counted Game of Thrones, The Lord of the Rings, Thor... Did I miss anything?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12238 on: January 29, 2016, 04:39:37 PM »
Other studies have shown that working late is what helps get you promotions.  "Face time".  It doesn't matter if you actually get more done, the boss sees you working late.  The boss doesn't see me come in at 7:30 am.  It depends on the boss, obviously, but one of my previous bosses worked exactly this way - and I opted out of playing that game.

I've sort of moved to the opposite approach, getting to work later by doing my exercise in the morning.  I end up getting off at the same time because of the nature of my job things come in late morning early afternoon that they want done and usually pushes me to being here later than I want to be.  I get told to go home more often now and waste much less time in the morning when work hasn't started up quite yet.

I should also note that I have not worked a job that requires the reporting of hours since 2004.  I also do not work at any kind of firm that relies on billable hours but rather finished products in the software industry.  I have previously worked at places where I had to punch in and out for everything, including bathroom breaks, in some convoluted system and have sworn a blood oath to the old gods and the new while circled about in flames cast from the heart of mount doom upon a hammer which was forged in the heart of a dying star that I will never work at such a place again.

Love the reference.  And I would take a permanent 20% pay cut tomorrow if I worked the same number of hours as I do now but didn't have to bill my time.  .1 hour increments.... bad.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12239 on: January 29, 2016, 05:38:22 PM »
I'm sure this is not a new "overheard"....two CWs at a lunch for a 3rd co-worker who is retiring next week.  Both commented that they were going to be working forever.  I was all set to just smile and nod until one commented that saving for their kid's college education was what specifically was going to prevent retirement.  So of course at that point I had to ask how much she was going to be trying to put aside for retirement.  She didn't give a specific number but said she and her husband were just looking at being able to provide for the local public university and that projections were "scary".  I went and spent some time on google and found the projected cost of a 4 year public university education in 2030 (when her kid will be about 20)...it was $200k.  Which seems huge, but yeah, okay, I can see how it would get there, so presumably that's what she's aiming for.  But...unless she and her husband are planning on having a LOT of kids, this doesn't seem like an amount that would delay FI *forever* (at least not in the income bracket that CW, her husband, me, and my husband are in).  I really want to know what's driving this thinking....low savings rate or an insane level of desired safety margin?

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12240 on: January 29, 2016, 05:59:17 PM »
I'm sure this is not a new "overheard"....two CWs at a lunch for a 3rd co-worker who is retiring next week.  Both commented that they were going to be working forever.  I was all set to just smile and nod until one commented that saving for their kid's college education was what specifically was going to prevent retirement.  So of course at that point I had to ask how much she was going to be trying to put aside for retirement.  She didn't give a specific number but said she and her husband were just looking at being able to provide for the local public university and that projections were "scary".  I went and spent some time on google and found the projected cost of a 4 year public university education in 2030 (when her kid will be about 20)...it was $200k.  Which seems huge, but yeah, okay, I can see how it would get there, so presumably that's what she's aiming for.  But...unless she and her husband are planning on having a LOT of kids, this doesn't seem like an amount that would delay FI *forever* (at least not in the income bracket that CW, her husband, me, and my husband are in).  I really want to know what's driving this thinking....low savings rate or an insane level of desired safety margin?

Jeebus. Alternative solution: move to Quebec. McGill tuition is less than 4K/year for residents, all apartments are rent-controlled, and if you put 2.5k into an education savings account for your kid (RESP) the govt adds 700$ to that. Every year. There you go: university education funded in less than 10 years, saving only 2.5k/year.

I have no idea why some Americans are still talking about college at those prices. Unless you're going into an explicitly high-earning field with near-guaranteed placements, the debt load alone is hellish.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 06:03:16 PM by Kitsune »

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12241 on: January 29, 2016, 06:00:55 PM »
....low savings rate or an insane level of desired safety margin?

Probably both, plus an unreasonably conservative estimate in average gains.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12242 on: January 30, 2016, 07:07:04 AM »
First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Whoever Jeremy Clarkson is, he has a poor understanding of physics.

GForces from acceleration can kill, even without a sudden deceleration (though we can argue about what actually kills and such).

Jeremy Clarkson is correct.
Traveling at high speed does not kill (think flying on an airplane).
G-forces experienced when coming to a sudden stop (crashing) is what kills.

Your 2nd statement does not make sense since acceleration and deceleration are one and the same (rate of change in velocity).

WerKater

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12243 on: January 30, 2016, 07:36:31 AM »
First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Whoever Jeremy Clarkson is, he has a poor understanding of physics.

GForces from acceleration can kill, even without a sudden deceleration (though we can argue about what actually kills and such).

Jeremy Clarkson is correct.
Traveling at high speed does not kill (think flying on an airplane).
G-forces experienced when coming to a sudden stop (crashing) is what kills.

Your 2nd statement does not make sense since acceleration and deceleration are one and the same (rate of change in velocity).
You are all right.
Speed is irrelevant.
Too strong acceleration kills you.
Too strong deceleration (= acceleration in the other direction) kills you.
Jeremy Clarkson's statement is correct and incomplete. Both of his sentences are true. The complete statement would have been:
"Speed never killed anybody. Changing sufficiently fast from any one state of motion to another, that's what gets you."

arebelspy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12244 on: January 30, 2016, 09:38:07 AM »

First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Whoever Jeremy Clarkson is, he has a poor understanding of physics.

GForces from acceleration can kill, even without a sudden deceleration (though we can argue about what actually kills and such).

Jeremy Clarkson is correct.
Traveling at high speed does not kill (think flying on an airplane).
G-forces experienced when coming to a sudden stop (crashing) is what kills.

Your 2nd statement does not make sense since acceleration and deceleration are one and the same (rate of change in velocity).
You are all right.
Speed is irrelevant.
Too strong acceleration kills you.
Too strong deceleration (= acceleration in the other direction) kills you.
Jeremy Clarkson's statement is correct and incomplete. Both of his sentences are true. The complete statement would have been:
"Speed never killed anybody. Changing sufficiently fast from any one state of motion to another, that's what gets you."

Exactly. But his statement of "suddenly becoming stationary" isn't correct.  Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.
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Threshkin

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12245 on: January 30, 2016, 12:46:33 PM »
It all delta V to me.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12246 on: January 30, 2016, 01:45:37 PM »
Wow, I am loving the parody news clippings.

The partners don't understand the mentality of staffers who are NOT shooting for partner.  They seem to miss the value of staff who are willing to reach a mid-manager level and stay there.  They see it as disloyalty/slacking if a staffer wants to always be out the door on time (not early) to have dinner with family, even if staffer comes in early to keep up the hours.  And thus, only "superstars" who put in stupid-long, visible, late hours get noticed and rewarded.  Thus, turnover is really high.
I can't figure out why this is such a sticking point. The value of an employee's time and the amount of it that they want to sell to the company are two different issues.

In certain businesses, such as public accounting, the business is essentially selling the time.  So yes, all things being equal, employee A who wants to sell 2080 hours is less valuable than employee B who wants to sell 2500.  And I don't get why rewarding guys who put in more hours is met with anger or disbelief.  Why shouldn't it be like that?  Work/life balance is just that, a balance.  If you want to spend more time on "life" the work part gets shortchanged.  There's nothing wrong with making the decision to do that, but it's a little disingenuous to not want to work as much as another and still want the same perks/promotions/etc.

Employee A, who wants to have evenings with family, would work 6 AM to 6 PM.  Employee B, who wanted to become a partner, would work 8:30 AM to 8:30 PM.  Employee A gets treated poorly because A left in time for dinner.  Employee B gets praised because B is "putting in the hours."

And, before the question comes up, of the employees that fit either the "A" or "B" category, it was only one of the B employees who was known to spend MASSIVE amounts of time on personal things.

This matches with a recent NPR session I listened to, about statistical research into "do women actually get paid less"...
Going down the rabbit hole, for professional work, the researcher found strong correlations in accounting and law between how much someone is paid and the flexibility of hours.  Namely, people that want to choose their hours, give up a large premium in pay, even when they work the same hours.  For those professions, this was attributed as the largest factor why women are paid less.  They take roles that have steady hours, or where they can choose to be with family for dinner, even if they work from home in the evenings or go in early.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12247 on: January 30, 2016, 01:54:29 PM »

First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Whoever Jeremy Clarkson is, he has a poor understanding of physics.

GForces from acceleration can kill, even without a sudden deceleration (though we can argue about what actually kills and such).

Jeremy Clarkson is correct.
Traveling at high speed does not kill (think flying on an airplane).
G-forces experienced when coming to a sudden stop (crashing) is what kills.

Your 2nd statement does not make sense since acceleration and deceleration are one and the same (rate of change in velocity).
You are all right.
Speed is irrelevant.
Too strong acceleration kills you.
Too strong deceleration (= acceleration in the other direction) kills you.
Jeremy Clarkson's statement is correct and incomplete. Both of his sentences are true. The complete statement would have been:
"Speed never killed anybody. Changing sufficiently fast from any one state of motion to another, that's what gets you."

Exactly. But his statement of "suddenly becoming stationary" isn't correct.  Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.

I think you're misunderstanding what he means by "suddenly becoming stationary".
Mr. Clarkson is trying to say;
 - Driving a race car at 200 mph does not kill you - Correct
 - Driving a race car at 1000 mph (if it exists) does not kill you - Correct
 - A race car using its brakes to stop from 200 mph does not kill you - Correct (moderate g force)
 - A race car hitting a concrete wall and instantly coming to a complete stop ("suddenly becoming stationary") is likely to kill you - Correct (extreme g force)

cerat0n1a

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12248 on: January 30, 2016, 02:30:24 PM »

I think you're misunderstanding what he means by "suddenly becoming stationary".
Mr. Clarkson is trying to say;
 - Driving a race car at 200 mph does not kill you - Correct
 - Driving a race car at 1000 mph (if it exists) does not kill you - Correct
 - A race car using its brakes to stop from 200 mph does not kill you - Correct (moderate g force)
 - A race car hitting a concrete wall and instantly coming to a complete stop ("suddenly becoming stationary") is likely to kill you - Correct (extreme g force)

I think you're misunderstanding what they're saying :-) Clarkson was correct (first time for everything) but incomplete.

A large enough acceleration can kill you without any need to crash into anything. This places a limit on how fast we can send people towards another planets. A large but non-fatal acceleration level causes fighter pilots to black out.

I'd observe that as we're all travelling on board this fine vessel at somewhere around 67 000mph, relative to the sun, so clearly speed alone is not a problem.  (And it's something like 600km/s relative to the local supercluster. No such thing as absolute speed!)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 02:34:02 PM by ceratonia »

arebelspy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12249 on: January 30, 2016, 03:10:07 PM »

First of all, speed does not kill.
"Speed never killed anybody. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
- Jeremy Clarkson

Whoever Jeremy Clarkson is, he has a poor understanding of physics.

GForces from acceleration can kill, even without a sudden deceleration (though we can argue about what actually kills and such).

Jeremy Clarkson is correct.
Traveling at high speed does not kill (think flying on an airplane).
G-forces experienced when coming to a sudden stop (crashing) is what kills.

Your 2nd statement does not make sense since acceleration and deceleration are one and the same (rate of change in velocity).
You are all right.
Speed is irrelevant.
Too strong acceleration kills you.
Too strong deceleration (= acceleration in the other direction) kills you.
Jeremy Clarkson's statement is correct and incomplete. Both of his sentences are true. The complete statement would have been:
"Speed never killed anybody. Changing sufficiently fast from any one state of motion to another, that's what gets you."

Exactly. But his statement of "suddenly becoming stationary" isn't correct.  Cause when it's acceleration that kills you, it's staying stationary (via inertia) that does it.

I think you're misunderstanding what he means by "suddenly becoming stationary".
Mr. Clarkson is trying to say;
 - Driving a race car at 200 mph does not kill you - Correct
 - Driving a race car at 1000 mph (if it exists) does not kill you - Correct
 - A race car using its brakes to stop from 200 mph does not kill you - Correct (moderate g force)
 - A race car hitting a concrete wall and instantly coming to a complete stop ("suddenly becoming stationary") is likely to kill you - Correct (extreme g force)

And going 0 to 1000mph in a second will kill you.  You didn't suddenly become stationary, per his point, yet you still died.  The acceleration killed you without you coming to a complete stop.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with a kid.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (occasionally) blog at AdventuringAlong.com.
You can also read my forum "Journal."