Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 8056754 times)

frances

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12050 on: January 27, 2016, 03:51:54 PM »
We have AmeriCorps members at the nonprofit I work at, which is basically a domestic Peace Corps program that pays a stipend of $11k for a year of service. I've been working more closely with the AmeriCorps recently and apparently one of them, who I would guess is in her 50s, eats out for lunch every day and has a 2 hour round-trip commute. She also has whimsical manicures every week (complete with large jewels glued on her nails- like how do you even live your life with nails like that?), dramatic hair changes monthly and is rumored to be in the hole 100k for her PhD. And again, she's making $11k this year, though she teaches some online community college classes and sell Mary Kay on the side. So let's call it $25k gross max....it's just insane.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12051 on: January 27, 2016, 04:41:31 PM »
Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).

Same for LSD, where the speed limit of 40mph, particularly on the north end, is like a minimum. I try to stick around 48, and I'm routinely passed--like, very quickly passed--by other drivers and taxis.

I try to limit myself to 10 MPH when I'm on LSD, although I probably shouldn't be driving at all

cerat0n1a

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12052 on: January 27, 2016, 05:15:56 PM »
Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)
One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-) I think it's also fair to say that in the UK our speed limits are generally set sensibly and enforced sensibly and you will only get fined if you were genuinely driving some way over the limit and the police can prove it - and even then you would normally need to be doing something potentially dangerous or to have ignored very visible/obvious signs that police or speed cameras were active.

But, as a regular visitor to the US, I agree with some of the comments here. There clearly are some places where speed limits are inappropriately low and/or are used by small town police to extract revenue from non-locals as they know that few people will turn up in court to contest the fine.

Anyway, how about a $100 000+ speeding ticket?

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/

maco

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12053 on: January 27, 2016, 06:15:18 PM »
(and we rarely have speed cameras in the US). 

Visit the DC area. I know one road where there was a speed camera, but people learned to slow down right in front of it. So they added another one 50ft earlier. I think there's a 3rd on on that stretch of road, too, and it's only a half mile or so long.

MoonShadow

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12054 on: January 27, 2016, 06:37:24 PM »
Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)
One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)

That's not true everywhere.  It's not even a named crime in my state.  All it says that a pedestrian shall not leave the curb to cross the street where that would create a hazard.  I'm sure some cities have citations against it.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12055 on: January 27, 2016, 07:11:21 PM »
Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)
One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)

That's not true everywhere.  It's not even a named crime in my state.  All it says that a pedestrian shall not leave the curb to cross the street where that would create a hazard.  I'm sure some cities have citations against it.

MoonShadow, if you're still in Kentucky, it's time to check your pedestrian laws again.  There are several other restrictions besides that one provision.  http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=6417  In any event, saying an action is "illegal" is not the same thing as a "crime."  I doubt jaywalking is a "crime" in many places, yet it certainly is "illegal" in several jurisdictions.  This is just like speeding a little bit -- it's illegal, but not a crime.

aperture

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12056 on: January 27, 2016, 07:15:58 PM »
Had lunch with two co-workers today (co-worker maintenance is $10/month in my budget). Both co-workers were complaining because work is busy right now.  One just purchased a new Audi Q-something and the other said she needs to buy a new car, but bought a horse on impulse last month instead.  We were at a Thai restaurant and I mentioned that I planned to travel to Thailand for a couple months at some point.  The one with the new Audi looked at me, and said "Oh sure, and I would like to retire, but that ain't happening anytime soon".   I smiled and kept my mouth shut.  Maybe one day, I will have an opportunity to share some simple math, but this was not the day.

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gooki

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12057 on: January 27, 2016, 08:19:56 PM »
Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)
One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AFn7MiJz_s
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nobodyspecial

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12058 on: January 27, 2016, 08:27:46 PM »
Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)
One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)
Although you are allowed to shoot pedestrians from your truck (in season)

Hedge_87

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12059 on: January 27, 2016, 09:09:21 PM »
Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).
I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?
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myhotrs

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12060 on: January 27, 2016, 10:35:32 PM »
Hope pic shows up, first time posting a pic. Not work related but made me laugh. The teeny car in the shadow of the monster F350 is a Jeep Cherokee!!
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Taran Wanderer

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12061 on: January 27, 2016, 11:04:10 PM »
Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit. To break the clearly signposted law and then complain about the well-known sanction being applied is just plain stupid.

After driving 20 hours around Sweden, I feel uniquely qualified to complain about speed cameras. My God, it was awful. Where I live, the speed limit on a road is what it is.  For the whole road. You settle in, set your cruise control, and then drive.

In rural Sweden, the speed is constantly changing and always at least 10km/h lower than it would be in any US state besides Hawaii. What should be a 90km/h road is posted at 80, then intersection!  60km/h. Back to 80. Divided section, 90.  Four lanes, 100. Town, 50. Out of town, 80. Deer sign, 60.  Curvy, 50. Straight, 80. On and on and on. And every time the speed limit drops there is a speed camera. It's a miracle I never got a ticket.
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MoonShadow

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12062 on: January 28, 2016, 12:59:49 AM »
Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)
One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)
Although you are allowed to shoot pedestrians from your truck (in season)

Only if they are wearing the Union Jack in one of the original 13 colonies.  They are still a bit bitter about the 2 pence per pound tax on tea.

cerat0n1a

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12063 on: January 28, 2016, 04:54:03 AM »
I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

One of the things they do here (particularly on long-running constructions on major roads) is to show pictures of kids & the workforce, holding up signs saying "thanks for slowing down and letting my parents come home from work alive." Seems to work quite well, although I suspect that people will ignore it after a year or two.

Co-worker (with 100+ mile commute) was talking about his upcoming skiing holiday in Switzerland before complaining at how much his teenagers were costing and how impossible it was going to be to retire at 65.

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12064 on: January 28, 2016, 05:16:23 AM »
Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).
I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

In IL what they'll frequently do is set a "construction" zone for dozens of miles, putting barrels and signs out, but actually work on one 100 yard stretch of that zone.  I have no problem slowing down when there are actual workers present, but they are teaching everyone not to respect the construction zone speed limit when they set it up the way they do. 
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former player

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12065 on: January 28, 2016, 06:13:06 AM »
In IL what they'll frequently do is set a "construction" zone for dozens of miles, putting barrels and signs out, but actually work on one 100 yard stretch of that zone.  I have no problem slowing down when there are actual workers present, but they are teaching everyone not to respect the construction zone speed limit when they set it up the way they do.
Something else they do in the UK is put cameras with automatic number plate recognition at the start and end of the zone.  Tickets get sent out automatically to anyone whose average speed exceeds the limit, which is very often 50 mph.  Works a treat - you get two or three very neat lines of vehicles all travelling at 50 mph for the length of the construction.
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Hedge_87

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12066 on: January 28, 2016, 06:38:39 AM »
Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).
I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

In IL what they'll frequently do is set a "construction" zone for dozens of miles, putting barrels and signs out, but actually work on one 100 yard stretch of that zone.  I have no problem slowing down when there are actual workers present, but they are teaching everyone not to respect the construction zone speed limit when they set it up the way they do.
You do have a valid point. It seems that they keep making cones bigger and putting more out thinking the problem is visibility. I agree the problem is more about people being desensitized to all the orange and flashing lights. I also think it doesn't matter how many cones and lights you set up if people don't pay attention while hurling them self down the road at deadly speeds. I can't believe what I see some people trying to do while behind the wheel.
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RWD

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12067 on: January 28, 2016, 06:50:02 AM »
I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

Where there are actually construction workers I agree. But I've seen places where the speed limit drops from 75 or 70 mph down to 45 mph where there is no change to the road surface or shoulders, no construction workers present, and it goes on for 10+ miles. In these sorts of sections I still slow down (to maybe 10 over the limit) for fear of getting a ticket but pretty much everyone else keeps doing 70 mph. I've also seen stretches of road where they've clearly already finished (all the cones and stuff are gone too), but they left up the construction signage...

Mermaid3011

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12068 on: January 28, 2016, 07:01:31 AM »
Overheard at work this morning:

colleague: I am going to get a coffee (fumbles with change in his pocket)
me: from the cafeteria? But why? coffee up here is free?
colleague: I drink that in the afternoon, but in the morning I want brewed Starbucks
me: then go one floor down, they have Keurig cups from Starbucks
colleagues: naw that's not the same
me: **shrugs** o.k. (thinks: really have to get some Starbucks stock)



Oh and then he handed me two coupons - one for a free coffee at the Presse Café down the street and one for $2 off a Latte at the same place.
Thanks!! (but why isn't he using them himself??)

By now my colleagues know that I am the coupon girl...  I told them to bring me any coupons they see and don't want to use themselves... Let's see how that'll work out :))

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12069 on: January 28, 2016, 07:02:26 AM »
Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).
I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

In IL what they'll frequently do is set a "construction" zone for dozens of miles, putting barrels and signs out, but actually work on one 100 yard stretch of that zone.  I have no problem slowing down when there are actual workers present, but they are teaching everyone not to respect the construction zone speed limit when they set it up the way they do.

Pennsylvania seems to frequently block off lanes simply to store barrels and cones. There isn't even room for people to work if they wanted to.

mlejw6

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12070 on: January 28, 2016, 08:09:22 AM »
Had lunch with two co-workers today (co-worker maintenance is $10/month in my budget). Both co-workers were complaining because work is busy right now.  One just purchased a new Audi Q-something and the other said she needs to buy a new car, but bought a horse on impulse last month instead.  We were at a Thai restaurant and I mentioned that I planned to travel to Thailand for a couple months at some point.  The one with the new Audi looked at me, and said "Oh sure, and I would like to retire, but that ain't happening anytime soon".   I smiled and kept my mouth shut.  Maybe one day, I will have an opportunity to share some simple math, but this was not the day.

Ooh, please tell me this is not a typo and your co-worker actually impulse bought a horse!

That would make my day
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LeRainDrop

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12071 on: January 28, 2016, 08:18:32 AM »
Had lunch with two co-workers today (co-worker maintenance is $10/month in my budget). Both co-workers were complaining because work is busy right now.  One just purchased a new Audi Q-something and the other said she needs to buy a new car, but bought a horse on impulse last month instead.  We were at a Thai restaurant and I mentioned that I planned to travel to Thailand for a couple months at some point.  The one with the new Audi looked at me, and said "Oh sure, and I would like to retire, but that ain't happening anytime soon".   I smiled and kept my mouth shut.  Maybe one day, I will have an opportunity to share some simple math, but this was not the day.

Ooh, please tell me this is not a typo and your co-worker actually impulse bought a horse!

That would make my day

What could be the alternative?  That she impulsively bought a house?  ;-)

maco

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12072 on: January 28, 2016, 08:36:52 AM »
Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).
I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

In IL what they'll frequently do is set a "construction" zone for dozens of miles, putting barrels and signs out, but actually work on one 100 yard stretch of that zone.  I have no problem slowing down when there are actual workers present, but they are teaching everyone not to respect the construction zone speed limit when they set it up the way they do.

Pennsylvania seems to frequently block off lanes simply to store barrels and cones. There isn't even room for people to work if they wanted to.

In Maryland the speed cameras set to construction zone speeds in construction zones are only supposed to create valid tickets if the construction zone has workers. Then a judge ruled that the person operating the speed camera counted, so as long as they keep someone sitting in the SUV that has the camera 24/7, that's exactly the same as an active construction zone.

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12073 on: January 28, 2016, 08:42:04 AM »
Had lunch with two co-workers today (co-worker maintenance is $10/month in my budget). Both co-workers were complaining because work is busy right now.  One just purchased a new Audi Q-something and the other said she needs to buy a new car, but bought a horse on impulse last month instead.  We were at a Thai restaurant and I mentioned that I planned to travel to Thailand for a couple months at some point.  The one with the new Audi looked at me, and said "Oh sure, and I would like to retire, but that ain't happening anytime soon".   I smiled and kept my mouth shut.  Maybe one day, I will have an opportunity to share some simple math, but this was not the day.

Ooh, please tell me this is not a typo and your co-worker actually impulse bought a horse!

That would make my day

What could be the alternative?  That she impulsively bought a house?  ;-)

I don't think this is as uncommon as one might think.

Momma signs Sally up for riding lessons. Sally looks so cute on "Thunderhoof". Sally jumps off the horse at the end of lesson 3, and declares undying love for "Thunderhoof". At lesson 6 the riding school quietly mentions that a quarter share of "Thunderhoof" is only $xxx.xx and the share of board is so cheap compared to renting a horse and since Sally shows such amazing promise and will want to ride forever it only makes sense. And so Sally's Mom comes to own a horse.

Same thing works for a lot of other hobbies.

Horses are what car guys point to and say "yeah, cars are expensive, but at least I'm not into horses!"
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golden1

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12074 on: January 28, 2016, 08:53:29 AM »
Oooooh the horse thing reminds me of something I overheard at work years ago.

This guys was complaining about his teenage daughter's equestrian hobby.  Apparently, she got good at it and her coach recommended she buy a horse.  He was freaking out because the daughter wanted a horse that cost something like $25K, not even talking about the cost of feeding and housing it.  This guy was working as a technician and had no degree, so he wasn't making enough to support that type of hobby for his kid.  I didn't have kids but I remember thinking "Whatever happened to not putting your kids in hobbies you can't afford?" 

Now I have a teenage daughter and still feel the same way. 

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12075 on: January 28, 2016, 08:58:32 AM »
Oooooh the horse thing reminds me of something I overheard at work years ago.

This guys was complaining about his teenage daughter's equestrian hobby.  Apparently, she got good at it and her coach recommended she buy a horse.  He was freaking out because the daughter wanted a horse that cost something like $25K, not even talking about the cost of feeding and housing it.  This guy was working as a technician and had no degree, so he wasn't making enough to support that type of hobby for his kid.  I didn't have kids but I remember thinking "Whatever happened to not putting your kids in hobbies you can't afford?" 

Now I have a teenage daughter and still feel the same way.

Eh, horseback riding is like sailing, it can be really cheap, or hyper expensive.  My sister rode horses growing up, it was basically free (after buying various pieces of clothing/equipment) because she worked in the barn shoveling shit to offset the price of lessons.  One doesn't need to own a horse to be in the hobby.
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GuitarStv

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12076 on: January 28, 2016, 09:05:01 AM »
Speeding tickets are given out to reduce harm to others.

No, speeding tickets are largely given out to make money for local municipalities.  Statistically, pretty much everyone speeds, largely because limits are set too low on purpose to drive speeding ticket revenue.

[action]Bites tongue. Hard.[/action]



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZRxo3EWAc

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/speedmgt/ref_mats/fhwasa12004/


http://priceonomics.com/is-every-speed-limit-too-low/

You are quoting a blogger over federally sponsored FWHA research and NZ research. You should buy his book - "Everything is Bullshit", also check out his article on the invention of Pad Thai! There's a source worth quoting!

But he did get a few things right! 85th percentile speeds are set at the speed most drivers are already driving, reducing variability in the traffic stream and therefore reducing severity of collisions. Excellent work Alex Mayyasi - you researched that bit well!

FWIW, most 85th percentile speeds correspond nicely with the design speed of the roads they are on. In other words, drivers are pretty good at driving in a safe speed band for the road. And most police will allow some forgiveness in the speed band, aiming to hold the outliers' speeds down rather than ticket the masses.

The problem is, speed limits are not usually set at the 85 percentile limits, but at something lower.  So if you agree with the 85 percentile methodology, you agree with me.   

Quote
The BS statement about speed limits being set in order to increase revenues is laughable. But I'm sure that as you clip a bike as you fly by, you'll be safe, and its that SOB's problem you couldn't swerve fast enough, right? I mean its not like sightlines through curves or crests are calculated into the roadway design - and its not like the reaction time has anything to do with how fast you are driving.

You can win this argument, go home and pat yourself on the back. But be ready for 2 things. One - for your stash to be cleaned out in a legal settlement after you hit said cyclist, and two, for the guy who ploughs into you using your same logic that his speed is more important than your life.

You will not see any further replies from me on the topic. Quit reading blogs, and start reading science and engineering reports.

Here be strawmen.

The whole discussion about speed limit values is a red herring.  Regardless of what the speed limit is set at, exceeding it makes you more likely to do harm to others.  This is because when you drive faster you are more likely to get in an accident.  When you get in an accident you are more likely to kill someone due to the increased speed.  (http://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/drivers/speed/inappropriate/)

Speed limits cannot be set too low.  The worst that happens from low speed limits that are followed is safer conditions for everyone.  If people are breaking the limit for their own selfish gain, they should be punished for the risks they are causing everyone else.

My original point still stands.
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Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12077 on: January 28, 2016, 09:17:49 AM »
The whole discussion about speed limit values is a red herring.  Regardless of what the speed limit is set at, exceeding it makes you more likely to do harm to others.

Not true

Quote
This is because when you drive faster you are more likely to get in an accident.

Not true

Quote
When you get in an accident you are more likely to kill someone due to the increased speed.  (http://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/drivers/speed/inappropriate/)

True

Quote
Speed limits cannot be set too low.

Seriously?

Quote
The worst that happens from low speed limits that are followed is safer conditions for everyone.

No, you cause severe speed differential problems between unthinking idiots who blindly follow the law and intelligent people who can do their own risk assessment on what a safe speed to travel is.


Quote
If people are breaking the limit for their own selfish gain, they should be punished for the risks they are causing everyone else.

If and only if the limit is set intelligently in the first place.

Quote
My original point still stands.

In your own mind.
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zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12078 on: January 28, 2016, 09:38:42 AM »
Let's make all the speed limits everywhere ZERO!
Quote
Speed limits cannot be set too low
Michigan’s state police have come out in favor of higher speed limits, saying speed limits that are too low put them in the position of ticketing responsible drivers.

Here's a comparative analysis of speed limits in BC, with an example of a possible excessively low limit where law enforcement spends lots of time collecting ticket revenue despite very little risky behavior. Also points out that Canada's relatively low speed limits don't stop it from having 2x the per-capita traffic deaths of autobahn-happy Germany.
- "if the speed limit is below the upper limit of the safe majority, the people who do the speed limit become hazards to themselves and others."
- low speed limits are proven to produce tension, especially WRT passing lanes, increasing risk

From Montana, a discussion of NO speed limits and low fatalities:
https://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

Or, to sum up... sure, you can insist that in a vacuum, higher speed = higher risk, all you want... but we don't live in a vacuum. In the context of the real world, and typical human behavior, irrational limits (high OR low) both increase risk.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 09:44:08 AM by zephyr911 »
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Ashyukun

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12079 on: January 28, 2016, 09:42:46 AM »
Horses are what car guys point to and say "yeah, cars are expensive, but at least I'm not into horses!"
At which point the guy with the horse says, "It could be worse- I could own a boat..."

mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12080 on: January 28, 2016, 09:44:30 AM »
Horses are what car guys point to and say "yeah, cars are expensive, but at least I'm not into horses!"
At which point the guy with the horse says, "It could be worse- I could own a boat..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxecx4oRsEI

mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12081 on: January 28, 2016, 09:47:52 AM »
GuitarStv, you're right. But you're also wrong.

First of all, speed does not kill. If it did, no astronaut would make it out alive and landspeed records would not be in the 700 MPH's. It is the difference in speed that kills; moreover, it is the highest average difference in speed that kills.

There is greater aggregate danger created from someone going too slow. And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.

dycker1978

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12082 on: January 28, 2016, 09:54:11 AM »
I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

Where there are actually construction workers I agree. But I've seen places where the speed limit drops from 75 or 70 mph down to 45 mph where there is no change to the road surface or shoulders, no construction workers present, and it goes on for 10+ miles. In these sorts of sections I still slow down (to maybe 10 over the limit) for fear of getting a ticket but pretty much everyone else keeps doing 70 mph. I've also seen stretches of road where they've clearly already finished (all the cones and stuff are gone too), but they left up the construction signage...
Here they have changed the law.  The company repair the road is required to move the signage as they make progress, and remove all signage when the work is complete, or the workers are not present, like at night, as long as it is safe to travel at the speed limit.

If the company does not follow the guide lines that are set up, they face fines.  Seeing as the fines are payable to the same group that pays the construction costs, it really seems to work.

TravelJunkyQC

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12083 on: January 28, 2016, 10:01:41 AM »
Overheard a gem yesterday between two people at work:
(They were going to visit a client the next day)
CW1: Whose car should we take?
CW2: Doesn't matter to me, you?
CW1: Do you mind driving, my car is starting to have a lot of miles on it.
CW2: No problem, I'd rather drive, the more miles I add, the faster I get to change my car! (This is a new Mercedes *bought* in the last year - it is NOT a company car)


GuitarStv

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12084 on: January 28, 2016, 10:18:40 AM »
First of all, speed does not kill. If it did, no astronaut would make it out alive and landspeed records would not be in the 700 MPH's. It is the difference in speed that kills; moreover, it is the highest average difference in speed that kills.

I didn't say that speed kills (although I wouldn't use astronaughts or people breaking land speed records as great examples of safe activities).  Driving at higher speed leads to more accidents, and the accidents are worse when they happen.


There is greater aggregate danger created from someone going too slow. And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.

If a single person is going too slow, this can be a problem.  That shouldn't be the case though, everyone should be going the posted limit.  You're saying that because people commonly break the speed limits (due to poor enforcement, fines that are too low, and social acceptance of speeding) a few people going the limit can be a problem.  You have it backwards though.  The people breaking the speed limit are the problem, not the speed limit.

Better enforcement and more stringent penalties would make roads safer, rather than our current accommodation of people who have decided that the rules don't apply to them.
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mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12085 on: January 28, 2016, 10:26:19 AM »
First of all, speed does not kill. If it did, no astronaut would make it out alive and landspeed records would not be in the 700 MPH's. It is the difference in speed that kills; moreover, it is the highest average difference in speed that kills.

I didn't say that speed kills (although I wouldn't use astronaughts or people breaking land speed records as great examples of safe activities).  Driving at higher speed leads to more accidents, and the accidents are worse when they happen.


There is greater aggregate danger created from someone going too slow. And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.

If a single person is going too slow, this can be a problem.  That shouldn't be the case though, everyone should be going the posted limit.  You're saying that because people commonly break the speed limits (due to poor enforcement, fines that are too low, and social acceptance of speeding) a few people going the limit can be a problem.  You have it backwards though.  The people breaking the speed limit are the problem, not the speed limit.

Better enforcement and more stringent penalties would make roads safer, rather than our current accommodation of people who have decided that the rules don't apply to them.

Yes, they would. But it would make for a lot of unhappy people and the laws would get changed again.

The fact is that people drive at the speed they're comfortable driving at for the particular roadway. Speed limits have little effect on it. You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but you really can't change human behavior.


zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12086 on: January 28, 2016, 10:26:46 AM »
If a single person is going too slow, this can be a problem.  That shouldn't be the case though, everyone should be going the posted limit.  You're saying that because people commonly break the speed limits (due to poor enforcement, fines that are too low, and social acceptance of speeding) a few people going the limit can be a problem.  You have it backwards though.  The people breaking the speed limit are the problem, not the speed limit.
You can say it all day long, and it's true, that if everyone were to go the exact same speed, and if that speed were a safe and reasonable one dictated by law, we'd be safer.

It's never going to happen. This lovely hypothetical scenario can never serve as an excuse for policies that ignore well-founded research data in the real world.
Quote
Better enforcement and more stringent penalties would make roads safer, rather than our current accommodation of people who have decided that the rules don't apply to them.
Nope.

Under certain ideal circumstances, they would.

Generally, in real life, they don't, and there are other approaches that are proven to be more effective with actual human drivers. Do you, like your government, insist on ignoring "is" for the sake of "should"? You're far more rational on other topics, in my experience.
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dycker1978

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12087 on: January 28, 2016, 10:26:46 AM »
First of all, speed does not kill. If it did, no astronaut would make it out alive and landspeed records would not be in the 700 MPH's. It is the difference in speed that kills; moreover, it is the highest average difference in speed that kills.

I didn't say that speed kills (although I wouldn't use astronaughts or people breaking land speed records as great examples of safe activities).  Driving at higher speed leads to more accidents, and the accidents are worse when they happen.


There is greater aggregate danger created from someone going too slow. And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.

If a single person is going too slow, this can be a problem.  That shouldn't be the case though, everyone should be going the posted limit.  You're saying that because people commonly break the speed limits (due to poor enforcement, fines that are too low, and social acceptance of speeding) a few people going the limit can be a problem.  You have it backwards though.  The people breaking the speed limit are the problem, not the speed limit.

Better enforcement and more stringent penalties would make roads safer, rather than our current accommodation of people who have decided that the rules don't apply to them.

You have built some what a straw man here.  You are correct that it is the speed differential that causes the issues, not the speed limit.  You state that it is the increased speed of the people not obeying the limit that causes this differential.  This is not true, here anyways, we routinely have people that travel much slower then the posted speed limit.  This causes the same differential but the people doing the speed limit are the ones driving quicker.  This is not enforceable with the current laws here.

This is typically caused by elderly on the freeway sections of our city.   

horsepoor

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12088 on: January 28, 2016, 10:54:55 AM »
Oooooh the horse thing reminds me of something I overheard at work years ago.

This guys was complaining about his teenage daughter's equestrian hobby.  Apparently, she got good at it and her coach recommended she buy a horse.  He was freaking out because the daughter wanted a horse that cost something like $25K, not even talking about the cost of feeding and housing it.  This guy was working as a technician and had no degree, so he wasn't making enough to support that type of hobby for his kid.  I didn't have kids but I remember thinking "Whatever happened to not putting your kids in hobbies you can't afford?" 

Now I have a teenage daughter and still feel the same way.


Eh, horseback riding is like sailing, it can be really cheap, or hyper expensive.  My sister rode horses growing up, it was basically free (after buying various pieces of clothing/equipment) because she worked in the barn shoveling shit to offset the price of lessons.  One doesn't need to own a horse to be in the hobby.

Yeah.  I got pretty good, but that doesn't mean $25K horse and going to expensive shows.  It was more like learn to ride this unbroken $500 horse, then maybe you can sell it and buy a better horse.  My first horse was $350.  I trained it and then traded it for a nicer untrained horse that the owner couldn't handle.  Mostly learned on my own and with free 4-H group lessons and mucked lots of stalls and exercised horses with absentee owners to pay for equipment, caught rides with friends who had trailers, sewed my own show clothes etc.  If you're actually "good" people will take notice and let you ride THEIR $25K horse for free, or even pay you for the service. 

Buying the kid the $25K horse just takes away lots of opportunities to learn resourcefulness, work ethic, entrepreneurship and perseverance.

BDWW

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12089 on: January 28, 2016, 10:58:45 AM »
Interesting results of Montana's speed limit experiment.

https://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/


LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12090 on: January 28, 2016, 11:01:00 AM »
No, you cause severe speed differential problems between unthinking idiots who blindly follow the law and intelligent people who can do their own risk assessment on what a safe speed to travel is.


You say intelligent people are those who drive riskier (and faster is riskier compared to slower, always) to break the law and dont expect other people to adhere to the same law?

Our definition of intelligent seems to be quite different.

Quote
Canada's relatively low speed limits don't stop it from having 2x the per-capita traffic deaths of autobahn-happy Germany.
How many of them are under snowy conditions?
Also a lot auf Autobahn has speed limits.

Quote
And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.
The solution to that is quite easy: If you get cought 3 times in one year going too fast you lose your drivers license.

You know, your only point for "slow drivers are more dangerous" is that the others are idiotically faster. I dont think that is reason to blame the slower drivers.

Quote
but you really can't change human behavior.
Yes, I see that every day when slave owners whip their slaves smoking big tobacco leaves on their horses while their wives are bustling at home with their 12 children.

Quote
This is not true, here anyways, we routinely have people that travel much slower then the posted speed limit.
This is typically caused by elderly on the freeway sections of our city.
Yes, that are the most experienced ones, the ones who - and I quote here - intelligent people who can do their own risk assessment on what a safe speed to travel is.


At this point you have basically lost the argument, because the "let every driver decide on his speed based on their assessment" points and derivatives cancel each other out and we are back to physics and biology were faster is more dangerous.

Threshkin

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12091 on: January 28, 2016, 11:01:34 AM »
This is typically caused by elderly on the freeway sections of our city.

This is also a generalization that may be showing an ageist bias.  Around here the vehicles going below the speed limit usually are the big-rig trucks going 60-65 and the Prius (or similar) drivers going 50-55 in the 75mph zones. 

Another big risk in the freeways are the people talking or texting while driving.  They tend to weave in and out of their lane and/or slow down unexpectedly.  Then when you pass them they realize they are going slow and speed up again, starting the cycle all over again.

greytbigdog

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12092 on: January 28, 2016, 11:21:04 AM »
What could be the alternative?  That she impulsively bought a house?  ;-)

My Dad did this.  They were living in BC, Mum wanted to be closer to her family in Quebec.  Dad had job offers in Ontario and Nova Scotia.  He went to Ontario for a conference and bought a house.  After signing all the paperwork, he called my mum to tell her they were moving.

Also heard a story from friends this weekend.  They have decided to run purchases more than $250 by each other first (both FIRE at 40) after their neighbour surprised his wife by buying a bigger house one block away from their current house.  "But you wanted a bigger place!"  New house was more than $650,000.

GuitarStv

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12093 on: January 28, 2016, 11:28:14 AM »
The fact is that people drive at the speed they're comfortable driving at for the particular roadway. Speed limits have little effect on it. You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but you really can't change human behavior.

At one point people drove drunk regularly because they were comfortable driving drunk.  Better enforcement, stricter rules, and public information campaigns have radically improved cases of drunk driving.

Why do you think that there would be a difference with speeding?




Quote
Better enforcement and more stringent penalties would make roads safer, rather than our current accommodation of people who have decided that the rules don't apply to them.
Nope.

Under certain ideal circumstances, they would.

Generally, in real life, they don't, and there are other approaches that are proven to be more effective with actual human drivers. Do you, like your government, insist on ignoring "is" for the sake of "should"? You're far more rational on other topics, in my experience.

I guess the question to ask would be 'why'?  Is the problem that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way roads in North America are designed that needs to be corrected, or is it just that the right combination of enforcement/penalties hasn't been tried?



You have built some what a straw man here.  You are correct that it is the speed differential that causes the issues, not the speed limit.  You state that it is the increased speed of the people not obeying the limit that causes this differential.  This is not true, here anyways, we routinely have people that travel much slower then the posted speed limit.  This causes the same differential but the people doing the speed limit are the ones driving quicker.  This is not enforceable with the current laws here.

This is typically caused by elderly on the freeway sections of our city.

I agree with your point.  Penalizing people who drive below the speed limit is somewhat problematic though as you are supposed to reduce speed when weather conditions warrant it.  Even just keeping to the posted limit on a freeway when there's a blizzard is probably foolhardy.  A way to safely fix the problem with a great speed differential between slow moving traffic and faster moving traffic (that is going the speed limit) would be to further lower the upper limit.
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Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12094 on: January 28, 2016, 11:29:52 AM »
No, you cause severe speed differential problems between unthinking idiots who blindly follow the law and intelligent people who can do their own risk assessment on what a safe speed to travel is.


You say intelligent people are those who drive riskier (and faster is riskier compared to slower, always) to break the law and dont expect other people to adhere to the same law?

Our definition of intelligent seems to be quite different.

And yet, statistically, I'm right, because some absurdly high percentage of people are breaking the law.  Faster is NOT always riskier than slower, go drive 25mph down your local interstate right not and tell me about how you're safer than those going 65-75 mph.
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maco

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12095 on: January 28, 2016, 11:31:57 AM »
This is typically caused by elderly on the freeway sections of our city.

This is also a generalization that may be showing an ageist bias.  Around here the vehicles going below the speed limit usually are the big-rig trucks going 60-65 and the Prius (or similar) drivers going 50-55 in the 75mph zones. 

Another big risk in the freeways are the people talking or texting while driving.  They tend to weave in and out of their lane and/or slow down unexpectedly.  Then when you pass them they realize they are going slow and speed up again, starting the cycle all over again.
I have a tendency to be the person in a Prius going 60 in a 65 (where everyone else is going 70-75) and then noticing it and speeding up after being passed. I'm just not looking at the speedometer, and I'm going "generally highway speed," which on most roads means speed limit 55 so go 60. On the couple roads with a higher speed limit, I forget I'm allowed to go faster.

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12096 on: January 28, 2016, 11:32:54 AM »
The fact is that people drive at the speed they're comfortable driving at for the particular roadway. Speed limits have little effect on it. You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but you really can't change human behavior.

At one point people drove drunk regularly because they were comfortable driving drunk.  Better enforcement, stricter rules, and public information campaigns have radically improved cases of drunk driving.

Why do you think that there would be a difference with speeding?

Because it was easily shown how dangerous it was/is to drive drunk.  You can't prove that with speed, as evidenced by the fact that the death rate is constant or falling with massive amounts of speed limit noncompliance every day.  You can't get people scared of the bogey man when they can prove there is no bogey man.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12097 on: January 28, 2016, 11:36:06 AM »
I guess the question to ask would be 'why'?  Is the problem that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way roads in North America are designed that needs to be corrected, or is it just that the right combination of enforcement/penalties hasn't been tried?


If we know what works, I don't really care to ask why it works (OK, I do, but it's an academic question for the sake of curiosity and deeper learning).

But the more important "why" is "why the fuck aren't we doing what we know works?"

Why do we have documentation of governments disregarding established engineering principles in ways that just happen to increase revenue but not safety? I mean, it's no shit, proven in some situations.
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Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12098 on: January 28, 2016, 11:38:39 AM »
Quote
Quote
Better enforcement and more stringent penalties would make roads safer, rather than our current accommodation of people who have decided that the rules don't apply to them.
Nope.

Under certain ideal circumstances, they would.

Generally, in real life, they don't, and there are other approaches that are proven to be more effective with actual human drivers. Do you, like your government, insist on ignoring "is" for the sake of "should"? You're far more rational on other topics, in my experience.

I guess the question to ask would be 'why'?  Is the problem that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way roads in North America are designed that needs to be corrected, or is it just that the right combination of enforcement/penalties hasn't been tried?

Quite the opposite.  The "problem" with North American [interstate] roadways is that they are designed to be safe at 65mph or more, and that was when they were new in the 50s and 60s.  Stick a modern car on an interstate, and baring abnormal weather or congestion, it's wildly overengineered to maintain 65mph.  People know this, can feel and understand it, and therefore disregard the number on the sign that tries to convince them otherwise.  And the fact that they do it safely every day confirms their actions as correct. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 11:40:20 AM by Chris22 »
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ender

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #12099 on: January 28, 2016, 12:38:46 PM »
Interesting results of Montana's speed limit experiment.

https://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

Ahhhh yeah but why bother with evidence when we can argue instead!