Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 4944359 times)

Pooperman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11650 on: December 18, 2015, 12:29:18 PM »
Our company was bought recently by a public company. That company offers an ESPP. The discussion came up and someone asked about the stock price and other things. One person said you could withhold as much as you wanted from your paycheck (realistically 15% of pay, max I assume). Another joked that you could put your whole paycheck in and then another said you'd have to be a multi-millionaire to do that.

I informed them that you'd only need enough money to float until you can sell your shares for a nice bump in salary. The conversation ended there.

shuffler

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11651 on: December 18, 2015, 02:16:10 PM »
One person said you could withhold as much as you wanted from your paycheck (realistically 15% of pay, max I assume).
There's an IRS-imposed $25k/year limit.  Or yeah, I'd be doing my whole paycheck too.

lostamonkey

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11652 on: December 18, 2015, 05:22:41 PM »
I work for a fairly small company that has been around for many years but I haven't been there that long.  I submitted my T1213 for 2016 to the CRA in October. I gave the HR person/owners spouse my letter of authorization today to reduce my withholdings. I had to explain to her what it was, and she said I am the first person to ever give her one. This form allows an employer to reduce withholdings due to: RRSP contributions, alimoney, child care expenses, investment loan interest. This means in all the years of the company's operation, there hasn't been one other employee who has tried to reduce his withholdings for these reasons.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 05:25:43 PM by lostamonkey »

MoonShadow

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11653 on: December 18, 2015, 05:43:44 PM »
I work for a fairly small company that has been around for many years but I haven't been there that long.  I submitted my T1213 for 2016 to the CRA in October. I gave the HR person/owners spouse my letter of authorization today to reduce my withholdings. I had to explain to her what it was, and she said I am the first person to ever give her one. This form allows an employer to reduce withholdings due to: RRSP contributions, alimoney, child care expenses, investment loan interest. This means in all the years of the company's operation, there hasn't been one other employee who has tried to reduce his withholdings for these reasons.

I've, honestly, never heard of this either; and would like more information.  But particularly, why can't you just file a W-2 as exempt?  Or is this not in the US?  I've been exempt on my W-2 for three years, and claimed married & 19 deductions for a decade before that.

EDIT:  Oh, I see.  This is Canada.  Ignore my US centric idiocy.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11654 on: December 18, 2015, 06:27:19 PM »
I work for a fairly small company that has been around for many years but I haven't been there that long.  I submitted my T1213 for 2016 to the CRA in October. I gave the HR person/owners spouse my letter of authorization today to reduce my withholdings. I had to explain to her what it was, and she said I am the first person to ever give her one. This form allows an employer to reduce withholdings due to: RRSP contributions, alimoney, child care expenses, investment loan interest. This means in all the years of the company's operation, there hasn't been one other employee who has tried to reduce his withholdings for these reasons.

I've, honestly, never heard of this either; and would like more information.  But particularly, why can't you just file a W-2 as exempt?  Or is this not in the US?  I've been exempt on my W-2 for three years, and claimed married & 19 deductions for a decade before that.

EDIT:  Oh, I see.  This is Canada.  Ignore my US centric idiocy.

Afaik, filing a w2 as exempt is fraud or similar unless you have zero tax liability

Edit:perjury
"• Last year I had a right to a refund of all federal income tax withheld because I had no tax liability, and • This year I expect a refund of all federal income tax withheld because I expect to have no tax liability. If you meet both conditions, write “Exempt” here . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ▶
Under penalties of perjury, I declare that I have examined this certificate and, to the best of my knowledge and belief, it is true, correct, and complete"

I'd be surprised if you met the requirements (are you the 47/%?)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 06:31:04 PM by dragoncar »

MoonShadow

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11655 on: December 18, 2015, 07:00:15 PM »
I work for a fairly small company that has been around for many years but I haven't been there that long.  I submitted my T1213 for 2016 to the CRA in October. I gave the HR person/owners spouse my letter of authorization today to reduce my withholdings. I had to explain to her what it was, and she said I am the first person to ever give her one. This form allows an employer to reduce withholdings due to: RRSP contributions, alimoney, child care expenses, investment loan interest. This means in all the years of the company's operation, there hasn't been one other employee who has tried to reduce his withholdings for these reasons.

I've, honestly, never heard of this either; and would like more information.  But particularly, why can't you just file a W-2 as exempt?  Or is this not in the US?  I've been exempt on my W-2 for three years, and claimed married & 19 deductions for a decade before that.

EDIT:  Oh, I see.  This is Canada.  Ignore my US centric idiocy.

Afaik, filing a w2 as exempt is fraud or similar unless you have zero tax liability

I'd be surprised if you met the requirements (are you the 47/%?)

Be surprised then.  I have zero income tax liability, and that has been the case for years, although my property taxes (and capital gains taxes) are considerable.  The last year that I claimed married & 19, I received a refund check of over $12K.  I have talked about my, somewhat unique, tax situation on this forum before.

EDIT:  Although some major tax credits that I can claim will be ending with my 2015 tax year, so I'm going back to a standard W2 withholding calculation for 2016.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 07:03:53 PM by MoonShadow »

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11656 on: December 18, 2015, 08:07:08 PM »
I work for a fairly small company that has been around for many years but I haven't been there that long.  I submitted my T1213 for 2016 to the CRA in October. I gave the HR person/owners spouse my letter of authorization today to reduce my withholdings. I had to explain to her what it was, and she said I am the first person to ever give her one. This form allows an employer to reduce withholdings due to: RRSP contributions, alimoney, child care expenses, investment loan interest. This means in all the years of the company's operation, there hasn't been one other employee who has tried to reduce his withholdings for these reasons.

I've, honestly, never heard of this either; and would like more information.  But particularly, why can't you just file a W-2 as exempt?  Or is this not in the US?  I've been exempt on my W-2 for three years, and claimed married & 19 deductions for a decade before that.

EDIT:  Oh, I see.  This is Canada.  Ignore my US centric idiocy.

Afaik, filing a w2 as exempt is fraud or similar unless you have zero tax liability

I'd be surprised if you met the requirements (are you the 47/%?)

Be surprised then.  I have zero income tax liability, and that has been the case for years, although my property taxes (and capital gains taxes) are considerable.  The last year that I claimed married & 19, I received a refund check of over $12K.  I have talked about my, somewhat unique, tax situation on this forum before.

EDIT:  Although some major tax credits that I can claim will be ending with my 2015 tax year, so I'm going back to a standard W2 withholding calculation for 2016.

OK, I'm surprised.  However, I don't think I would go around suggesting "tax exempt" to someone who merely wants to reduce their withholding (rather than eliminate them altogether)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11657 on: December 19, 2015, 02:16:25 PM »
I have always thought of them as the back-in cheat   ;-)

I hate being between two large vehicles, no matter which way my car is facing.  I can't see past them, and am backing out/pulling out blind.

I am a fan of pull through spots as well. My dad calls them pull outs, and always yells that he loves pulling out, which is awkward to say the least.

Arktinkerer

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11658 on: December 19, 2015, 04:19:31 PM »
Our company was bought recently by a public company. That company offers an ESPP. The discussion came up and someone asked about the stock price and other things. One person said you could withhold as much as you wanted from your paycheck (realistically 15% of pay, max I assume). Another joked that you could put your whole paycheck in and then another said you'd have to be a multi-millionaire to do that.

I informed them that you'd only need enough money to float until you can sell your shares for a nice bump in salary. The conversation ended there.

Use to work for a company that would let you contribute thru the year, changing the amount at will so long as you contributed at least $1 per pay period.  End of the plan year you could buy at the lower of the start or end price or cash out at any time.  I would contribute a small amount at the start and if the stock price went up substantially during the year, would take one of those 0% credit cards and live on it while contributing the max.  Nice bump in savings rate for doing that.  If stock price went down before then end I would cash out and pay down my mortgage.  First half of the next year was always for paying off the 0% credit card so we never had to pay interest.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11659 on: December 20, 2015, 12:21:48 AM »
I work for a fairly small company that has been around for many years but I haven't been there that long.  I submitted my T1213 for 2016 to the CRA in October. I gave the HR person/owners spouse my letter of authorization today to reduce my withholdings. I had to explain to her what it was, and she said I am the first person to ever give her one. This form allows an employer to reduce withholdings due to: RRSP contributions, alimoney, child care expenses, investment loan interest. This means in all the years of the company's operation, there hasn't been one other employee who has tried to reduce his withholdings for these reasons.

But isn't it a pain?  I did this one year, and by the time I finally received the letter, it was July, and then my withholdings dropped to very little, then spiked again in January the following year (as you need to reapply each year).

Edit to add -- I did not send in my CRA forms requesting it until March, when I knew how much I could contribute due to my bonus...   So it varies.  you need to send in proof of why the adjustment is valid, and I did not think I could do this until I could show my actual contribution made....   would be different for childcare, alimony, or just other annual amounts deducted.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 12:26:55 AM by goldielocks »

lostamonkey

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11660 on: December 20, 2015, 01:22:20 AM »
I work for a fairly small company that has been around for many years but I haven't been there that long.  I submitted my T1213 for 2016 to the CRA in October. I gave the HR person/owners spouse my letter of authorization today to reduce my withholdings. I had to explain to her what it was, and she said I am the first person to ever give her one. This form allows an employer to reduce withholdings due to: RRSP contributions, alimoney, child care expenses, investment loan interest. This means in all the years of the company's operation, there hasn't been one other employee who has tried to reduce his withholdings for these reasons.

But isn't it a pain?  I did this one year, and by the time I finally received the letter, it was July, and then my withholdings dropped to very little, then spiked again in January the following year (as you need to reapply each year).

Edit to add -- I did not send in my CRA forms requesting it until March, when I knew how much I could contribute due to my bonus...   So it varies.  you need to send in proof of why the adjustment is valid, and I did not think I could do this until I could show my actual contribution made....   would be different for childcare, alimony, or just other annual amounts deducted.

For me if was pretty easy. I just set up a preauthorized monthly transfer starting Jan 2016 from my bank account to my self directed RRSP. I just used (base salary in 2015*18%)/12 to calculate my monthly contributions. I had the bank print off proof of this preauthorized transfer. I faxed in a filled out T1213, and the bank proof to the CRA in October 2015 and they sent me a letter of authorization in December 2015 which applies to the 2016 tax year.

I don't think the CRA will care if you contribute more than shown on your T1213, but they will probably care if you contribute less. So you don't have to wait till March to file this form.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 01:26:31 AM by lostamonkey »

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11661 on: December 20, 2015, 07:40:24 PM »
I emailed my team some updated stats, with 'growth' in the subject line.

Got the following reply from one colleague:

"Does x growth require a beard trim, a comb or use of an electric razor ... or do you just let it grow out of control?"

That was his entire response. Nothing relevant, just bullshit to waste my time reading it after he wasted his own time crafting it.

Rage is a powerful motivator.

mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11662 on: December 21, 2015, 08:22:09 AM »
I emailed my team some updated stats, with 'growth' in the subject line.

Got the following reply from one colleague:

"Does x growth require a beard trim, a comb or use of an electric razor ... or do you just let it grow out of control?"

That was his entire response. Nothing relevant, just bullshit to waste my time reading it after he wasted his own time crafting it.

Rage is a powerful motivator.

He was getting paid while writing about mustaches. Sounds like he belongs on this site!

zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11663 on: December 21, 2015, 08:59:38 AM »
CW1: I miss my truck (traded for a brand new one a month ago to pull the new fifth wheel he also bought).
Same guy who paid almost half a million for a house after moving here, hated it within a year, bought another place before selling, struggled for a year to find a buyer, and finally unloaded it at a huge loss.

CW2: We're almost done paying off this debt I've had since (early 2000s)

The rest of the conversation has been about Apple watches and how much money everyone spent over the weekend... I was, sadly, unable to contribute much.
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JLee

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11664 on: December 21, 2015, 10:43:02 AM »
Even the top 2 networks (Verizon and AT&T) have $30 plans with data and all of that stuff. No excuses haha. I put together all my cell bills for the last 7 months that I've worked at my company, and it only totaled around $210. I get reimbursed for it, but it's just good practice!

T-Mobile is running a promo now - four lines for $120/mo (with 6GB for each line, and music/video doesn't count towards data use). Effectively unlimited data, coverage (free text/data, $0.20/min phone) in Canada and Mexico for $30/line.  : )

Pooperman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11665 on: December 21, 2015, 10:50:20 AM »
Even the top 2 networks (Verizon and AT&T) have $30 plans with data and all of that stuff. No excuses haha. I put together all my cell bills for the last 7 months that I've worked at my company, and it only totaled around $210. I get reimbursed for it, but it's just good practice!

T-Mobile is running a promo now - four lines for $120/mo (with 6GB for each line, and music/video doesn't count towards data use). Effectively unlimited data, coverage (free text/data, $0.20/min phone) in Canada and Mexico for $30/line.  : )

The reason for my response was that in many areas, verizon or at&t are better for coverage than sprint or t-mobile. I know you can get cheaper from the other two networks, but the tradeoff is that you may not have service in places you need it. For example, I go to see my grandparents a few times a year, and I would not get service without verizon/at&t (mountainous area). That's worth $1.50 more per month to me in terms of safety alone.

Pooperman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11666 on: December 21, 2015, 11:45:06 AM »
Coworker told me about how her husband bought a black friday tv for $480 when it would normally be $1000. Sounds fine, and without further info, this probably wouldn't belong here buuuuuut: her friend was staying over in their 2-bedroom apartment and was upset that their guest bedroom didn't have a tv and that she'd have to sit in the living room if she wanted to watch tv and then going to bed. Coworker has a tv in her bedroom too (2 tvs total). She and her husband are buying a house next year, so they got it for the guest bedroom then. It's sitting at her parents' house while they wait to move.

I nodded my head and stuff, but holy shit. The logic was that she needs the tv so the discount was good, but she's totally missing the fact that she already has 2 tvs and can't possibly watch more! Plus, she even mentioned that netflix and whatever exist.

Pooperman

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11667 on: December 21, 2015, 11:55:42 AM »
Coworker told me about how her husband bought a black friday tv for $480 when it would normally be $1000. Sounds fine, and without further info, this probably wouldn't belong here buuuuuut: her friend was staying over in their 2-bedroom apartment and was upset that their guest bedroom didn't have a tv and that she'd have to sit in the living room if she wanted to watch tv and then going to bed. Coworker has a tv in her bedroom too (2 tvs total). She and her husband are buying a house next year, so they got it for the guest bedroom then. It's sitting at her parents' house while they wait to move.

I nodded my head and stuff, but holy shit. The logic was that she needs the tv so the discount was good, but she's totally missing the fact that she already has 2 tvs and can't possibly watch more! Plus, she even mentioned that netflix and whatever exist.

The justifications when facing a "deal that you'll never see again" are pretty amazing. Equally amazing when the same deal and the same justifications show up time and again.

"It'll be on sale for like $800 when we move, so I got it now. It's a great deal!" Yep. A great deal on something you didn't need. I saved 100% to your 50% ;).

Kitsune

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11668 on: December 21, 2015, 12:29:35 PM »

The justifications when facing a "deal that you'll never see again" are pretty amazing. Equally amazing when the same deal and the same justifications show up time and again.

My spouse has that logic issue. Solution: we keep a household list of 'things we are looking for' (aka: things that, all things being equal, we will buy in the next 6-12 months, at full price, due to actual need) along with criteria (ex:'couch must be in this colour, be fully slipcovered due to kids+cats+desire for sanitation, and our preferred option is X at $$$ cost). Sales buys are ONLY acceptable in our house when the item is a) on our list, b) fulfills ALL the criteria (and usually is of that preferred brand), c) is a minimum of 15% less than what we were planning on spending, and d) we have the money in our bank account. And usually we keep a running search on Kijiji for what we're looking for as soon as the thing goes on the list, so less buying new at all since htings pop up used before we get around to going to the store anyway. Result: in the past 6 months, we've bought a couch and a dishwasher, and spent half of what we were planning on spending, total. We didn't go into ANY other 'because it's on sale' logic. Relief, both for my sanity and for our budget!

Rollin

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11669 on: December 21, 2015, 12:47:27 PM »
CW1: I miss my truck (traded for a brand new one a month ago to pull the new fifth wheel he also bought).
Same guy who paid almost half a million for a house after moving here, hated it within a year, bought another place before selling, struggled for a year to find a buyer, and finally unloaded it at a huge loss.

CW2: We're almost done paying off this debt I've had since (early 2000s)

The rest of the conversation has been about Apple watches and how much money everyone spent over the weekend... I was, sadly happily, unable to contribute much.

Fixed that fur ya!  :)
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zephyr911

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11670 on: December 21, 2015, 01:49:35 PM »
happily
Fixed that fur ya!  :)
Hahahaha! Thanks.

Debt payoff CW is about to buy a new car. Impressed that this will be only his 4th car in his life, but not sure why it has to be new. There are so many slightly used ones with most of their warranties left for 25-50% off... I could never stomach that last climb up the depreciation curve.
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dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11671 on: December 22, 2015, 12:59:54 PM »
Was talking to a partner about a slowdown in work from one of our biggest clients.  He said something like "if wishes were trees, I'd be retired now".  Uh, dude makes close or more than 7 figures, is married to a dentist (they also make bank) and does not live in a Manhattan-level COL area.  He's mentioned early retirement before, but I'm not sure if I slipped up and he saw my browsing habits or if he really thinks he can't do it.

Megatron

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11672 on: December 22, 2015, 02:28:43 PM »
kind of a humble-brag but I got my bonus this week for the year (26% of a 6-figure salary) and I was talking to my boss who probably has a 30%+ bonus of his salary. dude said he already spent it on a new boat for next year. We are in Chicago. we have 2 seasons: summer, winter. He already has a boat but is upgrading to a bigger boat. Told me it cost over a thousand dollars to fill up a gas tank for the boat.

With This Herring

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11673 on: December 22, 2015, 03:26:56 PM »
General knowledge from work:
Doctors who own their own practices have the worst financial habits of any category of professional I've seen.  They become accustomed to a constant influx of thousands of dollars each week.  As a result of this, they tend to save absolutely no money and finance all purchases.  One medical sole practitioner had financed two $100K SUVs (for himself and his wife, who worked in his same office), had mortgages on home and practice building, financed expensive jewelry for wife, paid kids' college tuition out of current earnings...  And they always had trouble paying taxes.  And the employer retirement contribution.  And they were DEEP in credit card debt.
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Icecreamarsenal

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11674 on: December 22, 2015, 03:32:57 PM »
General knowledge from work:
Doctors who own their own practices have the worst financial habits of any category of professional I've seen.  They become accustomed to a constant influx of thousands of dollars each week.  As a result of this, they tend to save absolutely no money and finance all purchases.  One medical sole practitioner had financed two $100K SUVs (for himself and his wife, who worked in his same office), had mortgages on home and practice building, financed expensive jewelry for wife, paid kids' college tuition out of current earnings...  And they always had trouble paying taxes.  And the employer retirement contribution.  And they were DEEP in credit card debt.

Yeah, especially the old school doctors I've heard.  They use the cash copays as their day's spending money (easily $1000 in cash/day) and are banking $10,000 in payments/day.  Those days are quickly fading though.

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11675 on: December 22, 2015, 11:59:18 PM »
General knowledge from work:
Doctors who own their own practices have the worst financial habits of any category of professional I've seen.  They become accustomed to a constant influx of thousands of dollars each week.  As a result of this, they tend to save absolutely no money and finance all purchases.  One medical sole practitioner had financed two $100K SUVs (for himself and his wife, who worked in his same office), had mortgages on home and practice building, financed expensive jewelry for wife, paid kids' college tuition out of current earnings...  And they always had trouble paying taxes.  And the employer retirement contribution.  And they were DEEP in credit card debt.

Yeah, especially the old school doctors I've heard.  They use the cash copays as their day's spending money (easily $1000 in cash/day) and are banking $10,000 in payments/day.  Those days are quickly fading though.

Doctors tend to be among the worst spenders. I suspect it's a combination of the accumulation of years of grinding and waiting (med school, residency, fellowship), high earnings that are consistent once they are in practice, and the ego/drive needed to be a doctor. I have many doctors in my family and they spend money faster than I can imagine. I think my cousins are a little smarter with their money though, so hopefully this is changing, though I have one cousin that's in his second year of residency and he's talking about buying a $100,000 car once he gets done. Another cousin bought a condo in the most expensive part of the Twin Cities so that he "can have fun." Not going to lie though, it is fun hanging out with him and I love the view from his condo.

cerat0n1a

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11676 on: December 23, 2015, 01:50:31 AM »
General knowledge from work:
Doctors who own their own practices have the worst financial habits of any category of professional I've seen. 

You just reminded me of an incident at the house of our friends a couple of years back. They're both doctors and had recently moved into this place and had their kitchen done. Part of this included new tiles and they'd bought them from a local (upmarket, expensive) department store. We were visiting about 3 months after this work had been done and there was a phone call to say that the store had been doing end of quarter accounts and realised that they'd worked out the tile area wrongly and that they'd charged £20 000 instead of £2 000 for the tiles and therefore they'd be refunding the difference. Friends hadn't noticed this, because "the total bill was within 20% of what we budgeted and there's always some cost over-run".

druth

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11677 on: December 23, 2015, 08:59:29 AM »
General knowledge from work:
Doctors who own their own practices have the worst financial habits of any category of professional I've seen. 

You just reminded me of an incident at the house of our friends a couple of years back. They're both doctors and had recently moved into this place and had their kitchen done. Part of this included new tiles and they'd bought them from a local (upmarket, expensive) department store. We were visiting about 3 months after this work had been done and there was a phone call to say that the store had been doing end of quarter accounts and realised that they'd worked out the tile area wrongly and that they'd charged £20 000 instead of £2 000 for the tiles and therefore they'd be refunding the difference. Friends hadn't noticed this, because "the total bill was within 20% of what we budgeted and there's always some cost over-run".

So their kitchen re-do was at least 90k?

smalllife

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11678 on: December 23, 2015, 09:14:33 AM »
General knowledge from work:
Doctors who own their own practices have the worst financial habits of any category of professional I've seen. 

Oh totally.  A medical office entered their health insurance figures incorrectly and wasn't taking enough from the employees to cover their portion - and didn't notice for over two years.  Which either means they just pay bills blindly without reconciliation, or have an incompetent bookkeeper.  And when they discovered the error, they wanted to take the $10k retroactively because "it's a lot of money and it should be ours". 
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MgoSam

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11679 on: December 23, 2015, 09:45:10 AM »
realised that they'd worked out the tile area wrongly and that they'd charged £20 000 instead of £2 000 for the tiles and therefore they'd be refunding the difference. Friends hadn't noticed this, because "the total bill was within 20% of what we budgeted and there's always some cost over-run".

I'm appreciative that they refunded the difference. Too many companies would have pocketed it.

A friend of mine owns a kitchen remodeling company and he mentioned the average job is around $30,000 that they do. Of course, they specialize in complete remodeling, though they are willing to do simpler tasks like changing the countertops.

My house has a wall around the kitchen that's unnecessary and I would like to remove it and put in an island, but I want to see about doing it on my own before going to them. It's non-loading bearing, so taking it down won't be an issue, it's the electric and tiling work that makes me hesitant. I'm waiting for a few friends to finish up house projects before asking for their help.

mm1970

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11680 on: December 23, 2015, 10:46:28 AM »
General knowledge from work:
Doctors who own their own practices have the worst financial habits of any category of professional I've seen.  They become accustomed to a constant influx of thousands of dollars each week.  As a result of this, they tend to save absolutely no money and finance all purchases.  One medical sole practitioner had financed two $100K SUVs (for himself and his wife, who worked in his same office), had mortgages on home and practice building, financed expensive jewelry for wife, paid kids' college tuition out of current earnings...  And they always had trouble paying taxes.  And the employer retirement contribution.  And they were DEEP in credit card debt.

Yeah, especially the old school doctors I've heard.  They use the cash copays as their day's spending money (easily $1000 in cash/day) and are banking $10,000 in payments/day.  Those days are quickly fading though.

Doctors tend to be among the worst spenders. I suspect it's a combination of the accumulation of years of grinding and waiting (med school, residency, fellowship), high earnings that are consistent once they are in practice, and the ego/drive needed to be a doctor. I have many doctors in my family and they spend money faster than I can imagine. I think my cousins are a little smarter with their money though, so hopefully this is changing, though I have one cousin that's in his second year of residency and he's talking about buying a $100,000 car once he gets done. Another cousin bought a condo in the most expensive part of the Twin Cities so that he "can have fun." Not going to lie though, it is fun hanging out with him and I love the view from his condo.
My doctor friend doesn't seem to be a big spender.  Granted, we live in coastal So Cal, so his house was expensive.  Over a million, but that's because he timed the purchase poorly (like we did) and has a slightly larger house than ours (his is 3 BR).  Most of his "extra" money goes to paying down his mortgage, and he still searches for good deals on airfare to visit family.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11681 on: December 23, 2015, 12:18:36 PM »
General knowledge from work:
Doctors who own their own practices have the worst financial habits of any category of professional I've seen. 

Oh totally.  A medical office entered their health insurance figures incorrectly and wasn't taking enough from the employees to cover their portion - and didn't notice for over two years.  Which either means they just pay bills blindly without reconciliation, or have an incompetent bookkeeper.  And when they discovered the error, they wanted to take the $10k retroactively because "it's a lot of money and it should be ours".

This happened to a bookkeeper I know.  It wasn't incompetency, but that she was one person doing the job of three.  The insurance bills were monthly, but payroll was weekly.  She was thinking "okay, 4 weeks per month," but forgot that every three months there is an extra week.  No one actually ended up shorted by year-end, though, as the timing of annual "layoffs" (month or two work stops in construction due to weather) coincided nicely with our year-end audit, so everything was easy to fix.  (There was no issue in prior years, as previously the insurance had been paid every two weeks and lined up nicely with payroll.)

My doctor friend doesn't seem to be a big spender.  Granted, we live in coastal So Cal, so his house was expensive.  Over a million, but that's because he timed the purchase poorly (like we did) and has a slightly larger house than ours (his is 3 BR).  Most of his "extra" money goes to paying down his mortgage, and he still searches for good deals on airfare to visit family.

There are exceptions, certainly, and good for your friend!
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cerat0n1a

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11682 on: December 23, 2015, 01:41:17 PM »
So their kitchen re-do was at least 90k?

The budget was £100k. It did involve some building work, not just putting in new cabinets etc.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11683 on: December 23, 2015, 10:43:03 PM »
The F250 is pretty much a standard commuting vehicle at my workplace. If only I'd known a mere picture of one outside the office would amuse this group so much. Hell, there are entire sections of the lot where trucks this size line up. Typically, they're driven 10-30 miles each way, all week long, loaded to the gills... with a 250# human and a briefcase.

My inability to locate my compact car in a sea of these things is one reason for parking in the far corner of the lot. Getting extra walking time and avoiding door dings are also relevant.

I feel like maybe this response would be better served in the Mustachian People Problems thread, but this has been a pet peeve of mine for...well, probably since I started driving.

I've always driven smaller cars, and it annoys me so much when I end up parking next to a truck or SUV. The reason? I basically have to blindly back out of the spot because there's no possible way to see anything around these monstrous vehicles.

Look UNDER them as you back out... HEHEHE...

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11684 on: December 23, 2015, 10:47:16 PM »
Is that the F250 I read so much about here?

Just curious, do you live somewhere where heavy duty trucks are not available?
Eastern Germany.
As far as I know there are exactly 3 cars of this type, but not that big, in this 30000 city.

I do have seen a few Urals from the farmers, but not in the last years.

As I recall from when I lived in Italy - vehicles like the size class of the F250 where always owned and operated by the military. Even most of the municipal vehicles were smaller.

JrDoctor

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11685 on: December 23, 2015, 11:43:48 PM »
...

Doctors tend to be among the worst spenders. I suspect it's a combination of the accumulation of years of grinding and waiting (med school, residency, fellowship), high earnings that are consistent once they are in practice, and the ego/drive needed to be a doctor. I have many doctors in my family and they spend money faster than I can imagine. I think my cousins are a little smarter with their money though, so hopefully this is changing, though I have one cousin that's in his second year of residency and he's talking about buying a $100,000 car once he gets done. Another cousin bought a condo in the most expensive part of the Twin Cities so that he "can have fun." Not going to lie though, it is fun hanging out with him and I love the view from his condo.

I think the reason doctors spend so much it to do with the theory of will power.  It basically all gets expended at work.  Its stressful and arduous and so by the time you get home you've spent all your energy and you give into your basal urges which takes will power to resist.  You thus buy that shit of amazon of have that takeaway pizza.

Also the lack of time means many try and make up for that by spending there way into enjoying that limited time better.

And then some people are just not that clever at work.

steviesterno

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11686 on: December 24, 2015, 07:30:22 AM »
I'm a doctor and teach interns in their final year of clinical rotations, and I see a real sense of entitlement. One problem is a lot of students have family/friends/parents/mentors that have been in the field a while and are successful. those doctors also worked a lot more in the 80s, when you could pull money in hand over fist. now the new graduates see these successful doctors (or at least flashy) and think they are entitled to look and act and drive and live like this older generation.

funny thing, all the field docs I know that are rich did it more from side hustles than actual medicine. Either buying real estate, investing in new practices, or just stock market for a long time. Hell that's my plan. Medicare pays us like $18 a patient, and that takes a half hour of our time, plus another hour or so paperwork, filing, calling, etc. Really hard to pay off med school loans at $36 an hour.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11687 on: December 24, 2015, 08:40:01 AM »
*snip* Medicare pays us like $18 a patient, and that takes a half hour of our time, plus another hour or so paperwork, filing, calling, etc. Really hard to pay off med school loans at $36 an hour.

I've heard that a lot of doctors consider Medicare/Medicaid patients as charity work, as the reimbursement rate is so low.  Is that true from your perspective?
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MgoSam

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11688 on: December 24, 2015, 04:53:41 PM »
I think the reason doctors spend so much it to do with the theory of will power.  It basically all gets expended at work.

Yeah I can see that. I know that after long days, I am sorely tempted to go out or get takeout as opposed to cooking something. I've been working on different strategies to curb this impulse.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11689 on: December 25, 2015, 01:01:51 AM »
*snip* Medicare pays us like $18 a patient, and that takes a half hour of our time, plus another hour or so paperwork, filing, calling, etc. Really hard to pay off med school loans at $36 an hour.

I've heard that a lot of doctors consider Medicare/Medicaid patients as charity work, as the reimbursement rate is so low.  Is that true from your perspective?
I sure do. So does everyone I work with and everyone I've ever known in the medical field  (that's not salaried).
Frustrating when you know that we're not saints, just incentivized beasts with mouths to feed, just like everyone else.
As the supreme law of the land states, life, liberty, and the myopic, haphazard, byzantine, underwhelming pursuit to socialized medicine.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11690 on: December 25, 2015, 06:56:31 AM »
Earlier this week, on the local news, here in central Florida, there was a report of a woman who was run over and killed at crosswalk, in Gainesville. She was in a wheelchair and the driver was unable to see her, since he was operating a "lifted truck"...........................  I guess this is heading in the direction of the "Affluenza" defense. Not guilty of vehicular manslaughter due to tiny genitals, and a need to compensate with an 8000lb truck, that four feet off the ground to the door sill. WTF?

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11691 on: December 25, 2015, 11:27:12 AM »
mouths to feed, just like everyone else.

Just like athletes are playing, "for the love of the game."

You're not like everyone else, there's no need to try to pretend otherwise. If you got paid minimum wage or even the median income, you would not be working as a doctor. There's no way people would go through med school, residency, and fellowship unless you have a fairly good size income, and that's ok, but don't pretend that you're just another person, clocking in and clocking out.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11692 on: December 25, 2015, 09:44:44 PM »
mouths to feed, just like everyone else.

Just like athletes are playing, "for the love of the game."

You're not like everyone else, there's no need to try to pretend otherwise. If you got paid minimum wage or even the median income, you would not be working as a doctor. There's no way people would go through med school, residency, and fellowship unless you have a fairly good size income, and that's ok, but don't pretend that you're just another person, clocking in and clocking out.

That actually goes for every kind of work where there's a significant up-front investment, though.

The Soviets experimented with paying everyone else more or less the same. The result was that the medical field became drained of its research-oriented talent. The only people who were willing to go through the grunt work to get in were the ones who had an emotional attachment to the field.
I squeak softly, but carry a big schtick.

steviesterno

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11693 on: December 26, 2015, 06:27:22 AM »
*snip* Medicare pays us like $18 a patient, and that takes a half hour of our time, plus another hour or so paperwork, filing, calling, etc. Really hard to pay off med school loans at $36 an hour.

I've heard that a lot of doctors consider Medicare/Medicaid patients as charity work, as the reimbursement rate is so low.  Is that true from your perspective?

somewhat. My experience is a bit different, as I've switched from private practice to teaching full time. sure, 50% pay cut at least, but now it's 40 hours a week of helping students and patients, and I do ZERO billing myself. I'm only worried about getting people care, not worried about collecting since my salary is the same every other week. oh yeah, 6 weeks vacation a year isn't terrible either.

Medicare sucks for a lot of reasons. you can't actually opt out, and even if the patient isn't medicare qualified for what you're going to do, you have to submit and bill to them anyway. they decide what's best for the patient off a spread sheet, not even looking at what the patient needs.

steviesterno

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11694 on: December 26, 2015, 06:30:07 AM »
mouths to feed, just like everyone else.

Just like athletes are playing, "for the love of the game."

You're not like everyone else, there's no need to try to pretend otherwise. If you got paid minimum wage or even the median income, you would not be working as a doctor. There's no way people would go through med school, residency, and fellowship unless you have a fairly good size income, and that's ok, but don't pretend that you're just another person, clocking in and clocking out.

I think people would do all that work if they got paid a living wage while going to school. If you think about it, I paid for the privilege of working 8 years to get to the field before I could start collecting a positive cash flow. If I made a life and wage in the process, it would have been much easier. Also I wouldn't need to make a ton of money if I didn't have to pay back $200k at 6% interest.

mm1970

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11695 on: December 26, 2015, 10:51:17 AM »
mouths to feed, just like everyone else.

Just like athletes are playing, "for the love of the game."

You're not like everyone else, there's no need to try to pretend otherwise. If you got paid minimum wage or even the median income, you would not be working as a doctor. There's no way people would go through med school, residency, and fellowship unless you have a fairly good size income, and that's ok, but don't pretend that you're just another person, clocking in and clocking out.
They sort of are, though.

I don't really understand your point - like any program that you have to pay for, there's a cost and an upside.  And of course we rail on people here who borrow tens of thousands on a useless degree.

Unfortunately becoming a doctor is expensive, and it's a long-term commitment.  It requires significant debt to borrow for school - not to mention cost of living - I assume that once out of undergrad, it's probably fairly difficult to hold down a part time job to support yourself.  Would people even consider going through 8+ years of school, borrowing ??? however much, if they started out of the gate at a low salary?  Probably not.  Not if you can get a degree in 4 years and make as much.

It's kind of a messed up system.  So yeah, you borrow hundreds of thousands, then work a decade to pay it all off, and then you are suddenly demonized for making $300k a year.

But I don't know - not being in the industry - one of the things I have to think about...when you get this doctor bill, and it seems outrageous.  Then the insurance company "negotiated rate" is half that.  But that doctor's office still has ... overhead, lights, rent, salaries, equipment, health insurance for their employees, billing...no?

My baby had a $25k surgery at 9 months old.  It was 18 months before that damned billing was settled, between the doctor, the hospital, and the insurance companies.  My son was double covered, we paid zero out of pocket - but imagine the overhead with the workers at the insurance company and both billing offices, filing, denying, re-filing, denying. Plus the phone calls my husband made (at least a dozen) "did you bill insurance company A?"  "Oh, no, we didn't."  "Well, that's the primary, here's the info".  Ad nauseum.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11696 on: December 26, 2015, 01:05:47 PM »
we paid zero out of pocket - but imagine the overhead with the workers at the insurance company and both billing offices, filing, denying, re-filing, denying. Plus the phone calls my husband made (at least a dozen) "did you bill insurance company A?"  "Oh, no, we didn't."  "Well, that's the primary, here's the info".  Ad nauseum.
On behalf of the civilised world - can we point out that there is an efficient solution to providing health care cheaply and universally with everyone paying zero out of pocket ;-)

 

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11697 on: December 26, 2015, 01:50:59 PM »
On behalf of the civilised world - can we point out that there is an efficient solution to providing health care cheaply and universally with everyone paying zero out of pocket ;-)

Sorry, we seem to have decided here in the US that the best possible medical care system is one where you have to pay for your cancer treatment with GoFundMe and basket raffles at the local VFW hall.

mm1970

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11698 on: December 26, 2015, 04:03:07 PM »
we paid zero out of pocket - but imagine the overhead with the workers at the insurance company and both billing offices, filing, denying, re-filing, denying. Plus the phone calls my husband made (at least a dozen) "did you bill insurance company A?"  "Oh, no, we didn't."  "Well, that's the primary, here's the info".  Ad nauseum.
On behalf of the civilised world - can we point out that there is an efficient solution to providing health care cheaply and universally with everyone paying zero out of pocket ;-)
I know, I experienced a *tiny* bit of that myself when I spent 5 years in the U.S. Navy.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #11699 on: December 27, 2015, 05:39:00 AM »
we paid zero out of pocket - but imagine the overhead with the workers at the insurance company and both billing offices, filing, denying, re-filing, denying. Plus the phone calls my husband made (at least a dozen) "did you bill insurance company A?"  "Oh, no, we didn't."  "Well, that's the primary, here's the info".  Ad nauseum.
On behalf of the civilised world - can we point out that there is an efficient solution to providing health care cheaply and universally with everyone paying zero out of pocket ;-)


you do pay out of pocket, every single time you pay your taxes. Health care is never free. collect it in beginning with taxes, or afterwards with insurance or out of pocket. I'm actually not against socialized medicine, but you have to socialize the educational aspect of it, too, not just the payment portion.

one of my FIRE goals is to move to a super LCOL area and open up a free/cheap mobile medical office in an RV, travel small town to town and treat people cheaply.