Overheard at Work

[merula]

She's also the one who responded to 'we need to make more than we spend, so we need to be more efficient AND make more money in order to stay in business' with 'you think too much about money'. Like... yes. Because we're a business. Which exists to make money. And should it fail to do so, it will go under.

It's interesting, I was just talking about this phenomenon with my boss. We work for a company that is the product of a merger of two companies over a decade ago, but we both joined the merged company and so don't really have a stake in the Company A vs Company B arguments that STILL go on.

Anyway, my theory is that Company A wanted to do everything possible for their customers, regardless of if it made money, and Company B wanted to do everything the "right" way, by-the-book, regardless of if it made money. My boss agreed, and shared a story of an interaction he had with someone who worked for Company B years ago, pre-merger. He worked for a competitor, and Company B-guy told him "You can never make money doing X", where X is actually one of the most profitable things our industry does.

Luckily, together Company AB does things that make money, because they make money, serve customers and are the right thing to do. Which is part of why I love my job.

[TomTX]

Got an email reminder from a coworker to lower withholding on my bonus check to "save" more of it from going into my 401k. Yeah, that is a good way to save more...

I wish my 401k could allow to indicate a flat $750 per pay period (we get paid 15th and last day of month) instead of a percentage. Instead I just adjust the percentage every April when we get our payraise and bonus to make sure I hit the exact max come 12/31.And before you ask it makes no sense to frontload as we get our match each pay period.

Thankfully on January 1 our plans are being amended so that you can specify either a percentage or a specific dollar amount per paycheck.

[nanu]

I just learnt today that a co worker of mine making $40k is contributing 1% to the 401k, when the company match is 3%.
She is leaving 2% free money on the table.

I tried to speak to her, the most frustrating thing is that she wasn't even able to give me a coherent reason why she's doing that.

"Oh you know, I don't really trust this stuff and I've always put 1%, so I'll just leave it like that."
"But you're leaving 2% free money on the table"
"Well, that's not that much money".

Then these people bitch because they want a raise.

Could you try to explain it to her? It sounds obvious to us but I think some people really don't get it. She is throwing away free money.

I even tried my secret weapon, the example I use for the most math-challenged individuals.

"Hey do you know that our 401k is a magical tool that basically TRIPLES your money?"
That usually gets people's attention.
Then I explain the ballpark math
"See, $100 of your gross salary become somewhere around $65-70 in your pocket (we are in NYC so with high state + city tax).
If instead you put them in the 401k not only they stay $100, but the company match makes them $200.
SEE? IT'S A MAGIC TOOL THAT TRIPLES YOUR MONEY *me faking a somewhat astonished face like it's every time the first time I really realize that*"

Nope.
Didn't work.

The last restort (that isn't always applicable - this requires immediate vesting of employer contributions) is to tell them even if they deposited in the 401k, and then withdrew immediately and paid the penalties, they still come out ahead!

With your numbers, they put in $100 and the company match is $100. They withdaw all $200 immediately. They pay a 10% penalty on the entire withdrawal of $200 -> $20 penalty. They pay $60-$70 in tax, so they're left with $110-$120.

That's still better than not contributing, where $100 gross becomes $65-$70.


If they're not convinced with this, then I don't think there's any hope left.

Sadly, I can still see this not working for people who live paycheck to paycheck. It'll take several days to process the 401k withdrawal and these few days without their small portion of their paycheck may break their cash flow.

I actually suggested this to someone, and he was like "nah, too complicated for me and I value money now way more than I value money in the future".
In fact, the way our 401K is structured, you can contribute to Roth 401K and you get the company match (50 cents on the dollar) to pre-tax 401K. I also believe we can withdraw any Roth 401K amounts without any penalty.
This means that as long as he is willing to get paid several weeks later every time (i.e. live off [probably non-existent] savings for several weeks, and then withdraw from 401K regularly) he can still have the exact same take-home pay AND have the $9K company match every year still sitting in his 401K (or withdraw that as well for penalty+tax).

and this guy isn't stupid or finds the math too difficult - he was doing a PhD in physics at Princeton before coming to work for our company...

[Bruised_Pepper]

A co-worker is interested in retirement (age 61) and so we've been talking since he knows that I will be retiring soon. He's been asking questions about our company's benefits for official retirees and since I've already done the research, I've sent him my links on the various policies, costs for retiree health insurance, and so forth.

Yesterday he told me that he was worried that he might run out of money in retirement, so I shared my two favorite sources for reassurance: cfiresim.com and RetirePlan (an app for the iPad). He looked at my demo of them and said, "But Metta, those are not made for people like us. Those are made for financial planners. That's what my financial planner uses when I'm in his office. We can't use those."

I reassured him, of course, but I think he still went away thinking that ordinary people cannot be expected to use financial modelers for themselves.

What is it about addition, subtraction, addition, and multiplication that makes them so intimidating to otherwise intelligent and competent people?
I'll admit, even after decades of doing more complex operations, investing in real estate for years, and using my own hand-built Excel budget tracking/forecast and tax analysis sheets, I find my confidence falters when trying to make strategic decisions based on them - and they are even simpler than cfiresim or the other tools that are popular here.
Instincts can be useful but they can also fail us miserably.

I think you are right about this. He is a very smart guy, a fantastic programmer/analyst who is comfortable using mathematics and viewing complex models as part of his job, but is unsure of this. It's interesting, isn't it?

I wonder if the true discomfort is with making strategic decisions.

You just blew my mind.

I've been trying to figure out why people are so scared about money my entire adult life.  I mean, even the laziest people are comfortable doing a little bit of addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, but the second you put a dollar sign on the front of those numbers?  Somehow it's suddenly too hard and stressful. 

You might be right: maybe it's because nobody sits down and tells you exactly what to do with money.  Maybe people would be perfectly happy always having a few distinct choices laid out in front of them and just be asked to choose between them, rather than evaluating their needs/wants and coming up with a solution. 

Thanks for that; you just gave me a lot to chew on. 

[Argyle]

I think the reason people have difficulty around money is that the choices are high-stakes and full of emotion.  There are a lot of differing forces telling people what they should do with their money (save like crazy! live for today! buy the right stocks! forget individual stocks and buy index funds!  pay off all your debt!  leverage your debt into investments!  impress your neighbors with a new car!  be sure to get the right car!  don't let the dealership take advantage of you!  buy gold in case the economy crashes!  never buy gold!  etc. etc. etc.).  Lots of pressure, no clear path without a lot of study, and lots of potential guilt for squandering money or making the wrong choices, lots of shame for having less than other people or than you "should" have, lots of envy of those who've had an easier time of it — no wonder it's a minefield.

[Making Cookies]

VP drives up in brand-new Tesla (the expensive extra expensive P9000 extra super turbo plus one that uses freshly-printed Benjamins to run)

Me: "Wow, neato car"

Him: "yeah, i guess - it was supposed to be my wife's but she didnt end up liking it so she got something else and I'm forced to drive this, wouldn't be my first choice"

Me: ................

My parents bought a "new" SUV from a fellow who bought it for his wife without consulting her. That wife wanted a Passat, not some big SUV. It was two weeks old more or less. Hundreds of miles tops. The way my parents tell the story he was really frustrated with his wife. Guess he wanted her to have what he wanted (SUV) and did not consider her taste in cars. He didn't get what he paid for the SUV. They made their discounted offer, and he paid it with reluctance.

[Daisy]

I walked into a meeting and sat down next to this lady. Then, based on what happened in a prior meeting  (not important to this story) I  asked my boss if it was OK to sit by the door since last meeting he made me move up out of my seat and sit by the door. So kind of a joke/sarcastic remark from me to boss.

So then boss says "well maybe 《this lady's 》situation will rub off on you". Then the lady proceeds to tell me that she just announced her resignation. She is 63 and retiring. She had wanted to wait 2 more years to "retirement age" but couldn't  take the BS at work any more.

Little does my boss know how prescient his remarks were. I hope to be done soon too! I kept quiet but smiled internally with the comfort of FU/FI money.

[arebelspy]

Hah. When you FIRE you can tell your boss his comment about you following her made a big impact. ;)

[Kouhri]

I work an entry level social services job. My co-worker, who makes under 30,000/year, bought a new charger about 6 weeks ago. I'm not sure what year but definitely at least a 2013. She immediately starts complaining about how she doesn't like it and wants a different car.  This week I spotted her Acura key ring. Yep. Traded it in and rolled it into a new loan.

I read this and thought "charger" was like a charger for your phone.  I then wondered how you could tell the year of a phone/laptop charger, and what was particularly flashy and unnecessary about it.  Then I read car and was like ohhhhhh!  I had to go back and reread from the beginning now picturing a car.  Can you tell I'm not a car person?  Hope I wasn't the only person out there who does this sort of thing...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who did this :/

[Eric222]

I work an entry level social services job. My co-worker, who makes under 30,000/year, bought a new charger about 6 weeks ago. I'm not sure what year but definitely at least a 2013. She immediately starts complaining about how she doesn't like it and wants a different car.  This week I spotted her Acura key ring. Yep. Traded it in and rolled it into a new loan.

I read this and thought "charger" was like a charger for your phone.  I then wondered how you could tell the year of a phone/laptop charger, and what was particularly flashy and unnecessary about it.  Then I read car and was like ohhhhhh!  I had to go back and reread from the beginning now picturing a car.  Can you tell I'm not a car person?  Hope I wasn't the only person out there who does this sort of thing...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who did this :/

It was the lower case "c" in charger that fooled me! :P

[zephyr911]

VP drives up in brand-new Tesla (the expensive extra expensive P9000 extra super turbo plus one that uses freshly-printed Benjamins to run)

Me: "Wow, neato car"

Him: "yeah, i guess - it was supposed to be my wife's but she didnt end up liking it so she got something else and I'm forced to drive this, wouldn't be my first choice"

Me: ................

I know this whole situation is overall profoundly idiotic, and these people need a real facepunch, but if I may pick at just one assumption:

Operating cost of a P90D is $.05/mi at the national average of $.14/kWh, as low as $.01 with some optimizations (hypermiling, time-of-use billing plan), or even free* if he sticks to the Supercharger network. Granted, the car is ridiculous as f*ck, but operating cost is a real bright spot, not another massive drain as implied (and as it would be with an ICE equivalent in the same class). Over the warranty period alone, TCO converges with that of a much cheaper car, depending on driving cycles.
This is the primary advantage of long-range EV technology. Aside from being currently available only in an insane package of unicorn hide and Unobtainium, it really is fundamentally superior from a lifecycle energy cost standpoint, and after it's refined and scaled up for mass markets the retail price will reflect that.
--your friendly local EV nerd
*baked into purchase price, really

My parents bought a "new" SUV from a fellow who bought it for his wife without consulting her. That wife wanted a Passat, not some big SUV. It was two weeks old more or less. Hundreds of miles tops. The way my parents tell the story he was really frustrated with his wife. Guess he wanted her to have what he wanted (SUV) and did not consider her taste in cars. He didn't get what he paid for the SUV. They made their discounted offer, and he paid it with reluctance.

Oh look, the #1 and #2 biggest reasons why people get divorced. Finances, and failure to communicate. Good job, guy.

[BDWW]

VP drives up in brand-new Tesla (the expensive extra expensive P9000 extra super turbo plus one that uses freshly-printed Benjamins to run)

Me: "Wow, neato car"

Him: "yeah, i guess - it was supposed to be my wife's but she didnt end up liking it so she got something else and I'm forced to drive this, wouldn't be my first choice"

Me: ................

I know this whole situation is overall profoundly idiotic, and these people need a real facepunch, but if I may pick at just one assumption:

Operating cost of a P90D is $.05/mi at the national average of $.14/kWh, as low as $.01 with some optimizations (hypermiling, time-of-use billing plan), or even free* if he sticks to the Supercharger network. Granted, the car is ridiculous as f*ck, but operating cost is a real bright spot, not another massive drain as implied (and as it would be with an ICE equivalent in the same class). Over the warranty period alone, TCO converges with that of a much cheaper car, depending on driving cycles.
This is the primary advantage of long-range EV technology. Aside from being currently available only in an insane package of unicorn hide and Unobtainium, it really is fundamentally superior from a lifecycle energy cost standpoint, and after it's refined and scaled up for mass markets the retail price will reflect that.
--your friendly local EV nerd
*baked into purchase price, really

My parents bought a "new" SUV from a fellow who bought it for his wife without consulting her. That wife wanted a Passat, not some big SUV. It was two weeks old more or less. Hundreds of miles tops. The way my parents tell the story he was really frustrated with his wife. Guess he wanted her to have what he wanted (SUV) and did not consider her taste in cars. He didn't get what he paid for the SUV. They made their discounted offer, and he paid it with reluctance.

Oh look, the #1 and #2 biggest reasons why people get divorced. Finances, and failure to communicate. Good job, guy.

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

[JordanOfGilead]

VP drives up in brand-new Tesla (the expensive extra expensive P9000 extra super turbo plus one that uses freshly-printed Benjamins to run)

Me: "Wow, neato car"

Him: "yeah, i guess - it was supposed to be my wife's but she didnt end up liking it so she got something else and I'm forced to drive this, wouldn't be my first choice"

Me: ................

I know this whole situation is overall profoundly idiotic, and these people need a real facepunch, but if I may pick at just one assumption:

Operating cost of a P90D is $.05/mi at the national average of $.14/kWh, as low as $.01 with some optimizations (hypermiling, time-of-use billing plan), or even free* if he sticks to the Supercharger network. Granted, the car is ridiculous as f*ck, but operating cost is a real bright spot, not another massive drain as implied (and as it would be with an ICE equivalent in the same class). Over the warranty period alone, TCO converges with that of a much cheaper car, depending on driving cycles.
This is the primary advantage of long-range EV technology. Aside from being currently available only in an insane package of unicorn hide and Unobtainium, it really is fundamentally superior from a lifecycle energy cost standpoint, and after it's refined and scaled up for mass markets the retail price will reflect that.
--your friendly local EV nerd
*baked into purchase price, really

My parents bought a "new" SUV from a fellow who bought it for his wife without consulting her. That wife wanted a Passat, not some big SUV. It was two weeks old more or less. Hundreds of miles tops. The way my parents tell the story he was really frustrated with his wife. Guess he wanted her to have what he wanted (SUV) and did not consider her taste in cars. He didn't get what he paid for the SUV. They made their discounted offer, and he paid it with reluctance.

Oh look, the #1 and #2 biggest reasons why people get divorced. Finances, and failure to communicate. Good job, guy.

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

A quick google search lead me to a total cost of ownership thread on a Tesla forum.
https://my.teslamotors.com/it_CH/forum/forums/providing-total-cost-ownership-spreadsheet-tesla-vs-ice-community-here

[Threshkin]

...snip...
A quick google search lead me to a total cost of ownership thread on a Tesla forum.
https://my.teslamotors.com/it_CH/forum/forums/providing-total-cost-ownership-spreadsheet-tesla-vs-ice-community-here

I just read some of the comments in this thread.  WOW, talk about first world problems!!!!

[JordanOfGilead]

...snip...
A quick google search lead me to a total cost of ownership thread on a Tesla forum.
https://my.teslamotors.com/it_CH/forum/forums/providing-total-cost-ownership-spreadsheet-tesla-vs-ice-community-here

I just read some of the comments in this thread.  WOW, talk about first world problems!!!!

I didn't read too deeply into it. I just checked the document the OP posted and saw that even with the overly simplistic (and probably not-too-accurate) method of calculation, the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

[Vertical Mode]

That's ....kind of my strategy?

1. Dump money into Vanguard index funds.
2. Ignore news about the stock market for ten-fifteen years so I don't panic.
3. Profit!

RE: step 2 - when I catch myself paying attention, I like to root for the market like it's a sports team. If we win, great! If we lose, well, there's another game tomorrow. Helps me absorb the gyrations from day to day.

[zephyr911]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

[dragoncar]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

[maco]

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

At least on the Prius, my battery recharges both when the car is slowing as my foot's off the gas and when I press the break gently / steadily. If I slam the brakes to avoid rear-ending someone, THAT is when I can feel the normal brakes engage.

[MrMoogle]

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

At least on the Prius, my battery recharges both when the car is slowing as my foot's off the gas and when I press the break gently / steadily. If I slam the brakes to avoid rear-ending someone, THAT is when I can feel the normal brakes engage.

You can regen nearly as much power as you can apply to accelerate.  When the brakes are kicked in depends on the vehicle, I'm sure.  I'm guessing most of these cars are brake-by-wire now, and that comes into play too.  It has to be a smooth transition.  If you're hypermiling, you'll never use the actual brakes.  If you're like most of the people on the road, you'll use them at every stop. 

I only do some portion of hypermiling with a combustion engine, and I hardly use brakes at all.  I will barely press it so my brake lights come on, and if anything, just engine brake.

[dragoncar]

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

At least on the Prius, my battery recharges both when the car is slowing as my foot's off the gas and when I press the break gently / steadily. If I slam the brakes to avoid rear-ending someone, THAT is when I can feel the normal brakes engage.

You can regen nearly as much power as you can apply to accelerate.  When the brakes are kicked in depends on the vehicle, I'm sure.  I'm guessing most of these cars are brake-by-wire now, and that comes into play too.  It has to be a smooth transition.  If you're hypermiling, you'll never use the actual brakes.  If you're like most of the people on the road, you'll use them at every stop. 

I only do some portion of hypermiling with a combustion engine, and I hardly use brakes at all.  I will barely press it so my brake lights come on, and if anything, just engine brake.

Thanks, I was thinking of a case where you are taking a freeway offramp.  I usually have to brake pretty hard from 60 to zero unless it's a really long offramp or the freeway is empty and I can coast down prior to taking the exit (without getting rear ended)

edit: that's in a regular ICE, never driven an EV or even a hybrid

[JordanOfGilead]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

If I understand correctly, regen braking has something to do with magnets and induced electrical current through motion near them. It's a no-contact braking system, but in order for it to feed energy back into the battery instead of drawing from it, a sacrifice is made to the braking power when not using the mechanical pad/rotor system. I could be wrong though.

[Pooperman]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

If I understand correctly, regen braking has something to do with magnets and induced electrical current through motion near them. It's a no-contact braking system, but in order for it to feed energy back into the battery instead of drawing from it, a sacrifice is made to the braking power when not using the mechanical pad/rotor system. I could be wrong though.

Yup. It has an affect where the magnetic induced current creates an opposite magnetic field that attracts the first magnet, helping to slow the rotation. If you've ever take. A magnet and dropped it through a pipe, you've seen this happen.

[maco]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

If I understand correctly, regen braking has something to do with magnets and induced electrical current through motion near them. It's a no-contact braking system, but in order for it to feed energy back into the battery instead of drawing from it, a sacrifice is made to the braking power when not using the mechanical pad/rotor system. I could be wrong though.

Yup. It has an affect where the magnetic induced current creates an opposite magnetic field that attracts the first magnet, helping to slow the rotation. If you've ever take. A magnet and dropped it through a pipe, you've seen this happen.

Or used one of those flashlights that doesn't have batteries, where you shake it so the magnet slams back and forth through the center coil.

[JordanOfGilead]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

If I understand correctly, regen braking has something to do with magnets and induced electrical current through motion near them. It's a no-contact braking system, but in order for it to feed energy back into the battery instead of drawing from it, a sacrifice is made to the braking power when not using the mechanical pad/rotor system. I could be wrong though.

Yup. It has an affect where the magnetic induced current creates an opposite magnetic field that attracts the first magnet, helping to slow the rotation. If you've ever take. A magnet and dropped it through a pipe, you've seen this happen.

Or used one of those flashlights that doesn't have batteries, where you shake it so the magnet slams back and forth through the center coil.

Or watched documentaries regarding land speed record vehicles that only use magnetically induced braking because mechanical braking at those speeds almost always explodes.

[nobodyspecial]

the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

What's a comparable vehicle?
A tesla is about $100k, a conventional Audi is $120-190k, a Porsche 911 is about the same.
You can get a BMW for 1/2 that, but you can also get an electric smart for $30k - I wouldn't necessary call that comparable

[mtn]

the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

What's a comparable vehicle?
A tesla is about $100k, a conventional Audi is $120-190k, a Porsche 911 is about the same.
You can get a BMW for 1/2 that, but you can also get an electric smart for $30k - I wouldn't necessary call that comparable

On top of that, how long have the Teslas been out? I thought it was around 2011 or 2012. We don't know their 10 year cost of ownership yet.

(I'm ignoring their sportscar, since that was almost a novelty car at the time)

[JordanOfGilead]

the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

What's a comparable vehicle?
A tesla is about $100k, a conventional Audi is $120-190k, a Porsche 911 is about the same.
You can get a BMW for 1/2 that, but you can also get an electric smart for $30k - I wouldn't necessary call that comparable

If you clicked the link, they compared the Tesla to an unnamed Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicle getting 30mpg with a sticker price of just under 50k. Judging by the tone of the thread on the tesla forum, it was likely something of roughly the same size and level of "luxury." Two clicks and you could have answered your own question and not wasted the space of this back-and-forth.

[JordanOfGilead]

the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

What's a comparable vehicle?
A tesla is about $100k, a conventional Audi is $120-190k, a Porsche 911 is about the same.
You can get a BMW for 1/2 that, but you can also get an electric smart for $30k - I wouldn't necessary call that comparable

On top of that, how long have the Teslas been out? I thought it was around 2011 or 2012. We don't know their 10 year cost of ownership yet.

(I'm ignoring their sportscar, since that was almost a novelty car at the time)

If you want to argue about the validity of the comparison, go to the Tesla forum. That thread has plenty of that already covered. I was just providing an example of one estimate that I found so that the entire discussion didn't revolve around speculation and actually had some numbers involved.

[mtn]

the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

What's a comparable vehicle?
A tesla is about $100k, a conventional Audi is $120-190k, a Porsche 911 is about the same.
You can get a BMW for 1/2 that, but you can also get an electric smart for $30k - I wouldn't necessary call that comparable

On top of that, how long have the Teslas been out? I thought it was around 2011 or 2012. We don't know their 10 year cost of ownership yet.

(I'm ignoring their sportscar, since that was almost a novelty car at the time)

If you want to argue about the validity of the comparison, go to the Tesla forum. That thread has plenty of that already covered. I was just providing an example of one estimate that I found so that the entire discussion didn't revolve around speculation and actually had some numbers involved.

Nah, more fun to do it here--no need to register for a new forum.

[zephyr911]

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

The exact implementation varies significantly from one vehicle to the next. Many have multiple user-selectable options and even regen paddles on the wheel.
Teslas are configurable for true one-pedal driving that never uses the brake pads if you look ahead and avoid having to stop very fast. Other cars are different.
One generalization you can make: pretty much all EVs (and hybrids) apply at least a small amount of regen at pedal neutral, and none apply friction brakes until at least a moderate amount of brake pedal pressure is applied, except for those with a positive-stop feature that lock the discs at the very end of the stop, even at pedal neutral (i3 and Tesla do this, no others that I know of).
The primary limiting factor to the amount of regen braking force that can be used before friction assist is required, is the size of the battery (via the # of cells in parallel). Thus, the bigger the batteries get, the more regen can replace friction.

[mustachepungoeshere]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

[nanu]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

She's also teaching them that nothing in life is free and allows them to choose between doing a job they don't like or having pocket money, but not both.
Kids need to understand priorities, and it's a good lesson for them.

However, as someone who grew up with two siblings in an apartment with 1.5 bathrooms, having a bathroom per kid (and probably another for the parents) is absurd IMHO.

[Megma]

Coworker today said that he has just accepted that he will carry over a credit card balance every month. A while back this same coworker said that one reason he likes his bank is they don't charge you fee when you overdraw your account up to x times a year, and they normally have an every few months.

What does he do at my company? Finance, naturally.

[Playing with Fire UK]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

I sort of like this. I've met too many entitled adults who will refuse to clean in shared houses because they know that someone else will break first and clean up after them; when I met their parents it all becomes clear. If the colleague knows that they would break first because they can't stand to look at the mess, then taking the pocket money off the kids does make a certain amount of sense. [I'm assuming that option of raising the kids to do what you say has passed already]

[mustachepungoeshere]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

I sort of like this. I've met too many entitled adults who will refuse to clean in shared houses because they know that someone else will break first and clean up after them; when I met their parents it all becomes clear. If the colleague knows that they would break first because they can't stand to look at the mess, then taking the pocket money off the kids does make a certain amount of sense. [I'm assuming that option of raising the kids to do what you say has passed already]

I totally agree about stopping the entitlement early. It's just a shame they won't learn about spending and saving through pocket money. If I was in her shoes, I would strongly be encouraging part-time jobs when they are old enough, so they can have some more hands-on responsibility with money.


Edited for punctuation.

[Kitsune]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

In their shoes, I can absolutely understand taking away pocket money to pay for a cleaner (and let's face it - outsourcing is totally a valid option for a lot of people. Hell, a lot of families outsource cooking when they go to McDonald's. Not saying it's the best option, but...). It also depends on what their pocket money was supposed to pay for, though.

If mom and dad buy brand-name clothes/pay cell phone bills/video games/tablets/toys/new books every day, then taking away an allowance that was ON TOP OF THAT wouldn't teach much (they've already got everything they need and want, and probably more than they can pay attention to, so what's a few bucks less per week?). I can pretty much guarantee that having a phone's text function stop working because 'you can't pay for it because that money is going to the cleaner' would be a pretty clear line for the average teenager who has a phone, for example. Or pointing out to a 12-year-old that the money being used to clean their bathroom would TOTALLY have paid for that video game within 6 weeks, but they had made the choice to not have it, so no video game. And then deal with the fit/sulking/etc and NOT give in.

(Disclaimer: I am a parent and I raised my brother through his early years. What I'm suggesting is NOT easy, but not doing it basically guarantees a spoiled kid who never does chores, and in the long run that's even less easy.)

[Frugalicious]

A coworker is getting divorced.  She is in her early 50s and has a lower level admin job.  Not entry level, but definitely hourly.  She is moving and she said, "I decided to get the three bedroom so that I can keep all of my shoes."

It will just be her living in the apartment.  I've worked with her for five years and I'm not sure she's ever worn the same pair twice.

[dandarc]

A coworker is getting divorced.  She is in her early 50s and has a lower level admin job.  Not entry level, but definitely hourly.  She is moving and she said, "I decided to get the three bedroom so that I can keep all of my shoes."

It will just be her living in the apartment.  I've worked with her for five years and I'm not sure she's ever worn the same pair twice.

That is a lot of shoes.  On the plus side, if she really has enough shoes to fill a 3 bedroom apartment, if she ever gets in a bind, she could sell them and raise quite a bit of dough, even at what I am sure is much less than she paid for them.  Probably well into 4 figures, maybe into 5.  Not the best emergency fund ever, but better than nothing!

Of course a better plan would be to start selling them right now so she can get a smaller place and have a pile of money too.

[I'm a red panda]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

Why is that a bad lesson? Everything CAN be outsourced for a price.  You have to decide if that price is worth it for you.

Clearly these kids would rather have someone else do their cleaning than have pocket money.

Seems like a pretty valuable lesson to teach: "You can't outsource things AND have spending money"

[maco]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

I sort of like this. I've met too many entitled adults who will refuse to clean in shared houses because they know that someone else will break first and clean up after them; when I met their parents it all becomes clear. If the colleague knows that they would break first because they can't stand to look at the mess, then taking the pocket money off the kids does make a certain amount of sense. [I'm assuming that option of raising the kids to do what you say has passed already]

I totally agree about stopping the entitlement early. It's just a shame they won't learn about spending and saving through pocket money. If I was in her shoes, I would strongly be encouraging part-time jobs when they are old enough, so they can have some more hands-on responsibility with money.


Edited for punctuation.

Isn't it kind of unusual to be in high school and not have a part-time job? I can't imagine my $4/mo allowance would've taught me much about money as a kid anyway.

[RyanAtTanagra]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

Why is that a bad lesson? Everything CAN be outsourced for a price.  You have to decide if that price is worth it for you.

Clearly these kids would rather have someone else do their cleaning than have pocket money.

Seems like a pretty valuable lesson to teach: "You can't outsource things AND have spending money"

Like Kitsune said, the problem is if they don't care about the pocket money because they already have everything paid for/bought for them.  Which, if their lifestyle is such that every kid has their own private bathroom, I would be willing to bet they aren't wanting for much.

[JordanOfGilead]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

I sort of like this. I've met too many entitled adults who will refuse to clean in shared houses because they know that someone else will break first and clean up after them; when I met their parents it all becomes clear. If the colleague knows that they would break first because they can't stand to look at the mess, then taking the pocket money off the kids does make a certain amount of sense. [I'm assuming that option of raising the kids to do what you say has passed already]

I totally agree about stopping the entitlement early. It's just a shame they won't learn about spending and saving through pocket money. If I was in her shoes, I would strongly be encouraging part-time jobs when they are old enough, so they can have some more hands-on responsibility with money.


Edited for punctuation.

Isn't it kind of unusual to be in high school and not have a part-time job? I can't imagine my $4/mo allowance would've taught me much about money as a kid anyway.

The only people in my high school with a job were people that drove themselves to school, and even then only about half of the ones that drove had to get a job to pay for it. Let's just say a LOT of kids took the bus ...

[maco]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

I sort of like this. I've met too many entitled adults who will refuse to clean in shared houses because they know that someone else will break first and clean up after them; when I met their parents it all becomes clear. If the colleague knows that they would break first because they can't stand to look at the mess, then taking the pocket money off the kids does make a certain amount of sense. [I'm assuming that option of raising the kids to do what you say has passed already]

I totally agree about stopping the entitlement early. It's just a shame they won't learn about spending and saving through pocket money. If I was in her shoes, I would strongly be encouraging part-time jobs when they are old enough, so they can have some more hands-on responsibility with money.


Edited for punctuation.

Isn't it kind of unusual to be in high school and not have a part-time job? I can't imagine my $4/mo allowance would've taught me much about money as a kid anyway.

The only people in my high school with a job were people that drove themselves to school, and even then only about half of the ones that drove had to get a job to pay for it. Let's just say a LOT of kids took the bus ...

Wow, I walked to the grocery store next door or ice cream shop down the street after school.

[zephyr911]

Like Kitsune said, the problem is if they don't care about the pocket money because they already have everything paid for/bought for them.  Which, if their lifestyle is such that every kid has their own private bathroom, I would be willing to bet they aren't wanting for much.

That was my first thought.

[saving_dutchman]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

[zephyr911]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

Tens of thousands over a long enough timeline, with investment returns.
I used to drive 5 miles home for lunch on occasion, but mostly because I didn't have a yard and my dogs needed walks. I preferred to pay a walker, but sometimes it fell to me.
Fortunately, we don't have that problem anymore. Even that $1 in gas seemed like a waste to me.

[dragoncar]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

Tens of thousands over a long enough timeline, with investment returns.
I used to drive 5 miles home for lunch on occasion, but mostly because I didn't have a yard and my dogs needed walks. I preferred to pay a walker, but sometimes it fell to me.
Fortunately, we don't have that problem anymore. Even that $1 in gas seemed like a waste to me.

If it means you get to see family or dogs then I'd do it. 

[Pooperman]

So I was talking to a coworker today. The other day, she mentioned how she and her husband have an inexpensive apartment. I ask more about it today when it came up. Theirs is a 2 bedroom, and they use the other bedroom for storage. Ours is a 1 bedroom.  Both were recently renovated. Theirs is in a good school district (they have no children), ours is not (we don't have children). Both towns are nice and safe. They are planning on buying a house soon, so are we (though a couple years from now as compared to next year). They pay $1700/month, we pay $965/month.

$1700/month is not 'cheap'!

[Cookie78]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

Tens of thousands over a long enough timeline, with investment returns.
I used to drive 5 miles home for lunch on occasion, but mostly because I didn't have a yard and my dogs needed walks. I preferred to pay a walker, but sometimes it fell to me.
Fortunately, we don't have that problem anymore. Even that $1 in gas seemed like a waste to me.

If it means you get to see family or dogs then I'd do it.

I used to do it every day (5km each way) to let my dog out to pee when he was a puppy. Also even after he was old enough it was still sooooo refreshing to hang out in my own house before going back for the afternoon. It was all pre-FIRE-ambitions of course, but I don't regret it. Also, about 80% of the time I tacked on some field work in that general direction and work paid 52c/km for my mileage. Luckily my house was nearly directly on the way to the area of the city where I did field work.