Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition

[talltexan]

My MiL showed up yesterday and offered me some shirts that her husband no longer wants. I tried to politely refuse them, but apparently this is a thing she does when she doesn't want items to leave the family.

[Sibley]

My MiL showed up yesterday and offered me some shirts that her husband no longer wants. I tried to politely refuse them, but apparently this is a thing she does when she doesn't want items to leave the family.

What are the consequences of accepting them and then donating/recycling them?

[talltexan]

Indeed many people seem to establish some kind of cycle like what you describe. It can depend on the item. The shirts can probably disappear and she won't notice, but the grandfather clock is another story entirely.

[GilesMM]

I overheard two ladies chatting at a small town coffee shop today whilst awaiting my beverage.  They were gloating about their finances and how they had sorted them out so well, could mostly manage their monthly payments and didn't have much debt.  Then one said "except of course our cars. I owe $24,000 and Paul owes about $28,000.  But what are you going to do?  We need vehicles."  Holy cow.  You are going to trade them down in this (still) fabulous used car market!  No sales taxes in our state so no reason not to buy and sell vehicles at will.

We did a lot of work with tradesman on the house this past summer and I was aghast at the fancy pickup trucks these guys drive.  Late model four-door pickups cost $80-100,000!  And the guys driving them are carpenters, plumbers, roofers, HVAC boys, etc.  I would kill for a good pickup to haul a utility trailer, etc., but can't stomach the high cost given how sporadically I would use it.

We needed new vehicles a couple years ago (at which stage we had over 8 figures invested) and I bought one 8 years old and 105kmiles for $10k (which I still have and adore; RWD!) and another 3 year old creampuff for $33k as an indulgence (embarrassing HP, color).  Two years later the pandemic came along and we traded down the fancy pants car for one the same age with 110k miles, better ride, better MPG and more reliable, pocketing $5k.  We may drive these things forever.

[SwordGuy]

I would kill for a good pickup to haul a utility trailer, etc., but can't stomach the high cost given how sporadically I would use it.

I use a trailer from Harbor Freight.  The trailer, a trailer hitch and permanent tags, some plywood, 2x4s and nuts and bolts, and I've got the ability to haul a pickup load for less than $1000.   And it even folds up so it takes up less space!

[GilesMM]

I would kill for a good pickup to haul a utility trailer, etc., but can't stomach the high cost given how sporadically I would use it.

I use a trailer from Harbor Freight.  The trailer, a trailer hitch and permanent tags, some plywood, 2x4s and nuts and bolts, and I've got the ability to haul a pickup load for less than $1000.   And it even folds up so it takes up less space!

Nice one! I put a hitch on my SUV and rent a 5x9' U-haul trailer with a ramp for $25/day.  I can haul two up to 1500 lbs on the trailer which meets most of my needs.  But, I have to reserve it, drive five miles to get it, return it, etc. 

[SwordGuy]

I would kill for a good pickup to haul a utility trailer, etc., but can't stomach the high cost given how sporadically I would use it.

I use a trailer from Harbor Freight.  The trailer, a trailer hitch and permanent tags, some plywood, 2x4s and nuts and bolts, and I've got the ability to haul a pickup load for less than $1000.   And it even folds up so it takes up less space!

Nice one! I put a hitch on my SUV and rent a 5x9' U-haul trailer with a ramp for $25/day.  I can haul two up to 1500 lbs on the trailer which meets most of my needs.  But, I have to reserve it, drive five miles to get it, return it, etc.

That's actually an awesome suggestion for most folks.  We were renovating houses to rent out in our spare time after our day jobs, so the extra cost was well worth it.   Without a need like that, your suggestion is more economical!

[sonofsven]

I overheard two ladies chatting at a small town coffee shop today whilst awaiting my beverage.  They were gloating about their finances and how they had sorted them out so well, could mostly manage their monthly payments and didn't have much debt.  Then one said "except of course our cars. I owe $24,000 and Paul owes about $28,000.  But what are you going to do?  We need vehicles."  Holy cow.  You are going to trade them down in this (still) fabulous used car market!  No sales taxes in our state so no reason not to buy and sell vehicles at will.

We did a lot of work with tradesman on the house this past summer and I was aghast at the fancy pickup trucks these guys drive.  Late model four-door pickups cost $80-100,000!  And the guys driving them are carpenters, plumbers, roofers, HVAC boys, etc.  I would kill for a good pickup to haul a utility trailer, etc., but can't stomach the high cost given how sporadically I would use it.

We needed new vehicles a couple years ago (at which stage we had over 8 figures invested) and I bought one 8 years old and 105kmiles for $10k (which I still have and adore; RWD!) and another 3 year old creampuff for $33k as an indulgence (embarrassing HP, color).  Two years later the pandemic came along and we traded down the fancy pants car for one the same age with 110k miles, better ride, better MPG and more reliable, pocketing $5k.  We may drive these things forever.

Haha, you're not wrong about the "work" trucks. This is the world I inhabit. I build fancy houses as the GC but everyone else has fancier trucks than me. To be fair, there are significant tax deductions available to the business owner using section 179 depreciation, but yeah. Crazy.
I used to only buy slightly used work trucks but years ago the cost for used increased to the point that new makes more sense (to me). I just bought a base Nissan as my new work rig, after 200k trouble free miles on my last Nissan work rig.
The ones that really crack me up are the jacked up behemoths with a lumber rack 8 feet off the ground and the bed at shoulder height--have fun loading/unloading!
Then at lunch, they all drive away to get fast food! I sit in my fold up camp chair eating my made at home lunch. Lol, they think I'm the weirdo.

[GilesMM]

Haha, you're not wrong about the "work" trucks. This is the world I inhabit. I build fancy houses as the GC but everyone else has fancier trucks than me. To be fair, there are significant tax deductions available to the business owner using section 179 depreciation, but yeah. Crazy.
I used to only buy slightly used work trucks but years ago the cost for used increased to the point that new makes more sense (to me). I just bought a base Nissan as my new work rig, after 200k trouble free miles on my last Nissan work rig.
The ones that really crack me up are the jacked up behemoths with a lumber rack 8 feet off the ground and the bed at shoulder height--have fun loading/unloading!
Then at lunch, they all drive away to get fast food! I sit in my fold up camp chair eating my made at home lunch. Lol, they think I'm the weirdo.

Exactly - huge white monstrosities all jacked up.  They drive from my place 15 minutes down the mountain to get a $15 burger for lunch and then come roaring back up. One kid even had a massive US flag waving in the bed of the truck. When I chat to most of them, they are living in rental apartments 20 miles from here.

[clarkfan1979]

My colleague (Technical Director, roughly €8,000/month) has announced that he will take a weeklong break the first week of January. He and his wife want to go to Switzerland on vacation, and they have decided that they will volunteer in a hotel for Belgian families-on-a-budget. They will have every afternoon off between 1 and 4, and 1 whole day. He will work in the kitchen, and his wife hopes to work as a nurse (meaning she has to be available 'just in case', but can pretty much do what she wants).

That's sad. Either they are so wasteful with their money they can't afford a vacation, or they're so stingy with their money that they can't let themselves relax and just enjoy themselves.

I understood this as being some sort of volunteering holiday? In that case I really appreciate it that a priviliged person is willing to donate their time, not just a bit of money.

I think if it's done right then it's a great thing.  Unfortunately, my views of this kind of thing are tainted by my Southern Baptist upbringing.  These kinds of things were mostly framed as "mission trips" and were often more like poverty tourism than actual help.

I have had similar attitudes regarding poverty tourism for the past 20 years. I didn't even know the term existed.

[ducky19]

I would kill for a good pickup to haul a utility trailer, etc., but can't stomach the high cost given how sporadically I would use it.

I use a trailer from Harbor Freight.  The trailer, a trailer hitch and permanent tags, some plywood, 2x4s and nuts and bolts, and I've got the ability to haul a pickup load for less than $1000.   And it even folds up so it takes up less space!

Nice one! I put a hitch on my SUV and rent a 5x9' U-haul trailer with a ramp for $25/day.  I can haul two up to 1500 lbs on the trailer which meets most of my needs.  But, I have to reserve it, drive five miles to get it, return it, etc.

That's actually an awesome suggestion for most folks.  We were renovating houses to rent out in our spare time after our day jobs, so the extra cost was well worth it.   Without a need like that, your suggestion is more economical!

I have a 2007 Pontiac Vibe that can (and has) hauled just about everything I've needed while finishing our basement. The exception was drywall, but for less than $100 I was able to have it delivered. The occasional 4x8 sheet of plywood or drywall fits neatly in our minivan, and for anything else we can rent a pickup from Menards for around $25. Sure beats a truck payment!

[Siebrie]

My colleague (Technical Director, roughly €8,000/month) has announced that he will take a weeklong break the first week of January. He and his wife want to go to Switzerland on vacation, and they have decided that they will volunteer in a hotel for Belgian families-on-a-budget. They will have every afternoon off between 1 and 4, and 1 whole day. He will work in the kitchen, and his wife hopes to work as a nurse (meaning she has to be available 'just in case', but can pretty much do what she wants).

That's sad. Either they are so wasteful with their money they can't afford a vacation, or they're so stingy with their money that they can't let themselves relax and just enjoy themselves.

I understood this as being some sort of volunteering holiday? In that case I really appreciate it that a priviliged person is willing to donate their time, not just a bit of money.

I think if it's done right then it's a great thing.  Unfortunately, my views of this kind of thing are tainted by my Southern Baptist upbringing.  These kinds of things were mostly framed as "mission trips" and were often more like poverty tourism than actual help.

I have had similar attitudes regarding poverty tourism for the past 20 years. I didn't even know the term existed.

Just to be clear: in Belgium this is not poverty tourism. Many Belgians went on summer camps as children, became youth leaders in their local youth groups (scouts and similar, not religion or class connected anymore), volunteered at vacation clubs either local or abroad, and continue doing so when they become adults. Belgium has 30 vacation days per year for working people, school children up to 18 have a 9 week summer break, universtity students have 11 weeks in summer (and university is practically free, so they don't need to work). Plenty of time to enjoy your own vacation and then help out with someone else's.

[eyesonthehorizon]

Just to be clear: in Belgium this is not poverty tourism. Many Belgians went on summer camps as children, became youth leaders in their local youth groups (scouts and similar, not religion or class connected anymore), volunteered at vacation clubs either local or abroad, and continue doing so when they become adults. Belgium has 30 vacation days per year for working people, school children up to 18 have a 9 week summer break, universtity students have 11 weeks in summer (and university is practically free, so they don't need to work). Plenty of time to enjoy your own vacation and then help out with someone else's.

Economic inequality is far, far lower in Belgium. A lot of the purpose of religious poverty-tourism mission trips in the Southern US where I also live was to solicit parental donations to the church, which could then take teens on a trip somewhere at low cost due to geoarbitrage in developing countries in South America or Asia, set up a narrative that they were God's favored Americans (as visibly contrasted to the locals) because He chose them to be born in a wonderful place (among other accidents of birth with political ramifications, let's just say haves vs. have-nots, but thus underscoring their indebtedness to continue worshiping Him fervently & with open wallets at their church), then justifying it all with the day or two of "service" as a lesson in "humility" - to serve, instead of their accustomed station of being served. I've noticed service is regarded as inherently humbling bordering on humiliating in southern US culture, where the lines between haves & have-nots used to be even more extremely stark &, ahem, visible. 

I find it sort of surprising that even in this thread there is an echo of that same implication that serving others cannot be joyful or relaxing! I specifically noticed you characterize service as "helping," a framework I do not think would be applied in the US since it implies a certain equality to start with, but which I wish we would embrace.

Pleasantly one of my coworkers - still in their 30s - told me this week they have decided they are no longer trying to advance a career but just build toward a "retirement" in which they chose their own employment level - I had to take a moment to collect myself as most peers & superiors are shackling themselves to ever-more debt with home upsizes, remodels, or customized vehicles.

[Siebrie]

My colleague (Technical Director, roughly €8,000/month) has announced that he will take a weeklong break the first week of January. He and his wife want to go to Switzerland on vacation, and they have decided that they will volunteer in a hotel for Belgian families-on-a-budget. They will have every afternoon off between 1 and 4, and 1 whole day. He will work in the kitchen, and his wife hopes to work as a nurse (meaning she has to be available 'just in case', but can pretty much do what she wants).

Just to be clear: in Belgium this is not poverty tourism. Many Belgians went on summer camps as children, became youth leaders in their local youth groups (scouts and similar, not religion or class connected anymore), volunteered at vacation clubs either local or abroad, and continue doing so when they become adults. Belgium has 30 vacation days per year for working people, school children up to 18 have a 9 week summer break, universtity students have 11 weeks in summer (and university is practically free, so they don't need to work). Plenty of time to enjoy your own vacation and then help out with someone else's.

Update: they didn't go :) There were too many volunteers, and they were put on a waiting list.

[mm1970]

Partly overheard at work, partly with friends.

1. Friends visiting from Bay Area.  Husband got laid off a few weeks ago.  (From a company he founded, ha!)  But wife is working, so it's no biggie.  Turns out she took a year off work during COVID when the kids were schooling from home, and eventually when they were back started work again.

2. Former coworker is helping us out a few hours a week at work.  Was chatting, and honestly wondering how he was managing a FT job at a startup and part time work.  Turns out, he quit the full time job awhile back.  He has a young child, and discovered a heart condition (he's in his 40s).  So, he said "I have enough passive income" (probably from work and from living in a van during college).  So, he quit the FT job and this job is mellow.

3.  A friend from long long ago was visiting.  He's retiring at 60, which is in 6 years.  His quote "I have my forever house, my forever job, and my forever wife".  Like, work is work, I'm okay just keeping on keeping on.

[scottish]

My MiL showed up yesterday and offered me some shirts that her husband no longer wants. I tried to politely refuse them, but apparently this is a thing she does when she doesn't want items to leave the family.

At least it wasn't his underwear...  :-)

[talltexan]

Since I typed that thing about the shirts, she showed up with a dozen-and-a-half pack of eggs, so I'm accelerating the retirement date!

[valsecito]

I really like it when my parents want to give us things, whether used or not. Then again, they'll happily accept "not interested" as an answer too. Non-exhaustive list of things I/we have received from them in the past:
- eggs from their chickens
- fruit and vegetables from their garden
- clothes for me. Mother has a few informal sources. Great, because I hate shopping for clothes.
- kitchen utensils. They have an enormous stash of spares. Just lately, a mixer when ours broke.
- their used car. We used it for a year during covid-19 instead of public transport. After it failed the very stringent inspection in my native country, we moved it to our countryside getaway in my wife's home country.
- arm chairs and a coffee table. These were actually hand-me-downs from my grandparents through my mother.
- cookies.

Oh, the cookies! My parents live round the corner from where I work part of my time, and quite far from our place. That's why my wife sees them less often.  My parents know she really likes anything cookies or cake, so they'll almost always stop me just before I leave to say: "Would you please take these cookies/this cake to your lovely wife and tell her we love her very much?". It's become a ritual, to the point of my wife when I return from work asking me with much anticipation what surprise they had for her this time. The next day, my wife and my mother will usually have a long phone conversation. It starts off with my wife saying thank you, and can sometimes last an hour. I love to see how close my wife and my mother have gotten!

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

I really like it when my parents want to give us things, whether used or not. Then again, they'll happily accept "not interested" as an answer too. Non-exhaustive list of things I/we have received from them in the past:
- eggs from their chickens
- fruit and vegetables from their garden
- clothes for me. Mother has a few informal sources. Great, because I hate shopping for clothes.
- kitchen utensils. They have an enormous stash of spares. Just lately, a mixer when ours broke.
- their used car. We used it for a year during covid-19 instead of public transport. After it failed the very stringent inspection in my native country, we moved it to our countryside getaway in my wife's home country.
- arm chairs and a coffee table. These were actually hand-me-downs from my grandparents through my mother.
- cookies.

Oh, the cookies! My parents live round the corner from where I work part of my time, and quite far from our place. That's why my wife sees them less often.  My parents know she really likes anything cookies or cake, so they'll almost always stop me just before I leave to say: "Would you please take these cookies/this cake to your lovely wife and tell her we love her very much?". It's become a ritual, to the point of my wife when I return from work asking me with much anticipation what surprise they had for her this time. The next day, my wife and my mother will usually have a long phone conversation. It starts off with my wife saying thank you, and can sometimes last an hour. I love to see how close my wife and my mother have gotten!

One of my coworkers gave me a dozen eggs from her "girls" as a present at my work baby shower! It was one of my favorite gifts. Another made me a quart of decaf cold brew.

[Thrallama]

Been reading through this thread and the other epic-length threads on this board, and I finally have something to contribute.

One colleague of mine is quite open about living paycheck to paycheck, never having enough money for emergencies like car repair/vet bills, etc. She buys (and wears) lots of expensive makeup, and she and her partner order takeout/delivery quite often. In short, I expected to be posting this in the normal Antimustachian thread.

Well, we are having our open enrollment period for benefits right now so the talk one afternoon turned to retirement/401ks/HSAs. Apparently this colleague contributes 10% to her 401k (plus 3.5% company match) and has gotten at least the match (requires 6% employee contribution) since she started working here. She also increases her contributions when she gets a raise.

Maybe it's not fully Mustachian, but it's not antimustachian either. I was surprised, to say the least.

[LennStar]

Sounds like mind is willing, but the flesh is weak :D

[charis]

Been reading through this thread and the other epic-length threads on this board, and I finally have something to contribute.

One colleague of mine is quite open about living paycheck to paycheck, never having enough money for emergencies like car repair/vet bills, etc. She buys (and wears) lots of expensive makeup, and she and her partner order takeout/delivery quite often. In short, I expected to be posting this in the normal Antimustachian thread.

Well, we are having our open enrollment period for benefits right now so the talk one afternoon turned to retirement/401ks/HSAs. Apparently this colleague contributes 10% to her 401k (plus 3.5% company match) and has gotten at least the match (requires 6% employee contribution) since she started working here. She also increases her contributions when she gets a raise.

Maybe it's not fully Mustachian, but it's not antimustachian either. I was surprised, to say the least.

Most average non-mustachian folks that I know are like this.  They are contributing 10% to get to a "normal" retirement but money is tight most of the time.

[ixtap]

Been reading through this thread and the other epic-length threads on this board, and I finally have something to contribute.

One colleague of mine is quite open about living paycheck to paycheck, never having enough money for emergencies like car repair/vet bills, etc. She buys (and wears) lots of expensive makeup, and she and her partner order takeout/delivery quite often. In short, I expected to be posting this in the normal Antimustachian thread.

Well, we are having our open enrollment period for benefits right now so the talk one afternoon turned to retirement/401ks/HSAs. Apparently this colleague contributes 10% to her 401k (plus 3.5% company match) and has gotten at least the match (requires 6% employee contribution) since she started working here. She also increases her contributions when she gets a raise.

Maybe it's not fully Mustachian, but it's not antimustachian either. I was surprised, to say the least.

Most average non-mustachian folks that I know are like this.  They are contributing 10% to get to a "normal" retirement but money is tight most of the time.

Even we live like this since downshifting. Well, we contribute like 70%, but total savings is only going to be around 10% as we draw down taxable to make those contributions...

[ChpBstrd]

Been reading through this thread and the other epic-length threads on this board, and I finally have something to contribute.

One colleague of mine is quite open about living paycheck to paycheck, never having enough money for emergencies like car repair/vet bills, etc. She buys (and wears) lots of expensive makeup, and she and her partner order takeout/delivery quite often. In short, I expected to be posting this in the normal Antimustachian thread.

Well, we are having our open enrollment period for benefits right now so the talk one afternoon turned to retirement/401ks/HSAs. Apparently this colleague contributes 10% to her 401k (plus 3.5% company match) and has gotten at least the match (requires 6% employee contribution) since she started working here. She also increases her contributions when she gets a raise.

Maybe it's not fully Mustachian, but it's not antimustachian either. I was surprised, to say the least.

Most average non-mustachian folks that I know are like this.  They are contributing 10% to get to a "normal" retirement but money is tight most of the time.

It's kinda like "I will do what other people tell me to do regardless of my own financial goals" whether you are contributing the default to your 401k or if you are a rabid consumer digging oneself into a debt pit. It just suggests a lack of initiative or intellectual independence either way.

[AMandM]

It's kinda like "I will do what other people tell me to do regardless of my own financial goals" whether you are contributing the default to your 401k or if you are a rabid consumer digging oneself into a debt pit. It just suggests a lack of initiative or intellectual independence either way.

I hear you, but I'm a little more sympathetic. I think a lot of people are not acting regardless of their financial goals; they're doing what the experts tell them is the way to get to those goals.

[charis]

Been reading through this thread and the other epic-length threads on this board, and I finally have something to contribute.

One colleague of mine is quite open about living paycheck to paycheck, never having enough money for emergencies like car repair/vet bills, etc. She buys (and wears) lots of expensive makeup, and she and her partner order takeout/delivery quite often. In short, I expected to be posting this in the normal Antimustachian thread.

Well, we are having our open enrollment period for benefits right now so the talk one afternoon turned to retirement/401ks/HSAs. Apparently this colleague contributes 10% to her 401k (plus 3.5% company match) and has gotten at least the match (requires 6% employee contribution) since she started working here. She also increases her contributions when she gets a raise.

Maybe it's not fully Mustachian, but it's not antimustachian either. I was surprised, to say the least.

Most average non-mustachian folks that I know are like this.  They are contributing 10% to get to a "normal" retirement but money is tight most of the time.

It's kinda like "I will do what other people tell me to do regardless of my own financial goals" whether you are contributing the default to your 401k or if you are a rabid consumer digging oneself into a debt pit. It just suggests a lack of initiative or intellectual independence either way.

It does.  I vividly remember a conversation with my good friend since childhood who had recently met with their financial planner.  We were 39-40 and discussing fees for our kids' school and sports, etc.   She was like, the financial planner has us on track for retiring at 67 (10%).  I was like, I want to retire way before that, like my parents did (55) without revealing that I wanted to be FI way earlier (45).  Her response was, what would I do until 67?  I was/am bewildered that someone in their late 30s is even assuming that they want to be yoked to a job at almost 70 years old.

[JAYSLOL]

Been reading through this thread and the other epic-length threads on this board, and I finally have something to contribute.

One colleague of mine is quite open about living paycheck to paycheck, never having enough money for emergencies like car repair/vet bills, etc. She buys (and wears) lots of expensive makeup, and she and her partner order takeout/delivery quite often. In short, I expected to be posting this in the normal Antimustachian thread.

Well, we are having our open enrollment period for benefits right now so the talk one afternoon turned to retirement/401ks/HSAs. Apparently this colleague contributes 10% to her 401k (plus 3.5% company match) and has gotten at least the match (requires 6% employee contribution) since she started working here. She also increases her contributions when she gets a raise.

Maybe it's not fully Mustachian, but it's not antimustachian either. I was surprised, to say the least.

Most average non-mustachian folks that I know are like this.  They are contributing 10% to get to a "normal" retirement but money is tight most of the time.

It's kinda like "I will do what other people tell me to do regardless of my own financial goals" whether you are contributing the default to your 401k or if you are a rabid consumer digging oneself into a debt pit. It just suggests a lack of initiative or intellectual independence either way.

It does.  I vividly remember a conversation with my good friend since childhood who had recently met with their financial planner.  We were 39-40 and discussing fees for our kids' school and sports, etc.   She was like, the financial planner has us on track for retiring at 67 (10%).  I was like, I want to retire way before that, like my parents did (55) without revealing that I wanted to be FI way earlier (45).  Her response was, what would I do until 67?  I was/am bewildered that someone in their late 30s is even assuming that they want to be yoked to a job at almost 70 years old.

I’m in my late 30’s and if I could FIRE tomorrow I would.  I can absolutely find things to do with my time, I won’t for one second be bored.   It’s not like I won’t ever work, I just don’t want to be tied down to a job for need of the salary. 

[snic]

It does.  I vividly remember a conversation with my good friend since childhood who had recently met with their financial planner.  We were 39-40 and discussing fees for our kids' school and sports, etc.   She was like, the financial planner has us on track for retiring at 67 (10%).  I was like, I want to retire way before that, like my parents did (55) without revealing that I wanted to be FI way earlier (45).  Her response was, what would I do until 67?  I was/am bewildered that someone in their late 30s is even assuming that they want to be yoked to a job at almost 70 years old.

This is a very common sentiment, and Mustachians are the outliers. Many people I've talked to about retirement have little interest in retiring earlier than their mid-60s (at the earliest), expressing the sentiment, "what would I do with myself sitting at home?" There are also plenty of people who enjoy their jobs and/or feel like they are making a useful contribution with their work.

[charis]

There are also plenty of people who enjoy their jobs and/or feel like they are making a useful contribution with their work.

Perhaps, but wouldn't you think the total lack of foresight is weird?  Choosing not to leave a job that you enjoy at 35 is far different than assuming you will still enjoy it, and no other life circumstances will prevent you from working it, at 60. 

Most people simply want to spend more today than would allow them to save more than 10%.  The 'what would I do until 67' is a way to rationalize what all the "experts" are telling them. 

[AMandM]

I vividly remember a conversation with my good friend since childhood who had recently met with their financial planner.  We were 39-40 and discussing fees for our kids' school and sports, etc.   She was like, the financial planner has us on track for retiring at 67 (10%).  I was like, I want to retire way before that, like my parents did (55) without revealing that I wanted to be FI way earlier (45).  Her response was, what would I do until 67? 

This attitude is really baffling to me. What do they plan to do after they retire at 67, and why can't they do it earlier? Or do they think that retirement equals sitting around at home, and that's okay in your 60s for some reason?

[sonofsven]

Been reading through this thread and the other epic-length threads on this board, and I finally have something to contribute.

One colleague of mine is quite open about living paycheck to paycheck, never having enough money for emergencies like car repair/vet bills, etc. She buys (and wears) lots of expensive makeup, and she and her partner order takeout/delivery quite often. In short, I expected to be posting this in the normal Antimustachian thread.

Well, we are having our open enrollment period for benefits right now so the talk one afternoon turned to retirement/401ks/HSAs. Apparently this colleague contributes 10% to her 401k (plus 3.5% company match) and has gotten at least the match (requires 6% employee contribution) since she started working here. She also increases her contributions when she gets a raise.

Maybe it's not fully Mustachian, but it's not antimustachian either. I was surprised, to say the least.

Most average non-mustachian folks that I know are like this.  They are contributing 10% to get to a "normal" retirement but money is tight most of the time.

It's kinda like "I will do what other people tell me to do regardless of my own financial goals" whether you are contributing the default to your 401k or if you are a rabid consumer digging oneself into a debt pit. It just suggests a lack of initiative or intellectual independence either way.

It does.  I vividly remember a conversation with my good friend since childhood who had recently met with their financial planner.  We were 39-40 and discussing fees for our kids' school and sports, etc.   She was like, the financial planner has us on track for retiring at 67 (10%).  I was like, I want to retire way before that, like my parents did (55) without revealing that I wanted to be FI way earlier (45).  Her response was, what would I do until 67?  I was/am bewildered that someone in their late 30s is even assuming that they want to be yoked to a job at almost 70 years old.

But were they talking about working til age 67? Or collecting SS at age 67?

[ChpBstrd]

Been reading through this thread and the other epic-length threads on this board, and I finally have something to contribute.

One colleague of mine is quite open about living paycheck to paycheck, never having enough money for emergencies like car repair/vet bills, etc. She buys (and wears) lots of expensive makeup, and she and her partner order takeout/delivery quite often. In short, I expected to be posting this in the normal Antimustachian thread.

Well, we are having our open enrollment period for benefits right now so the talk one afternoon turned to retirement/401ks/HSAs. Apparently this colleague contributes 10% to her 401k (plus 3.5% company match) and has gotten at least the match (requires 6% employee contribution) since she started working here. She also increases her contributions when she gets a raise.

Maybe it's not fully Mustachian, but it's not antimustachian either. I was surprised, to say the least.

Most average non-mustachian folks that I know are like this.  They are contributing 10% to get to a "normal" retirement but money is tight most of the time.

It's kinda like "I will do what other people tell me to do regardless of my own financial goals" whether you are contributing the default to your 401k or if you are a rabid consumer digging oneself into a debt pit. It just suggests a lack of initiative or intellectual independence either way.

It does.  I vividly remember a conversation with my good friend since childhood who had recently met with their financial planner.  We were 39-40 and discussing fees for our kids' school and sports, etc.   She was like, the financial planner has us on track for retiring at 67 (10%).  I was like, I want to retire way before that, like my parents did (55) without revealing that I wanted to be FI way earlier (45).  Her response was, what would I do until 67?  I was/am bewildered that someone in their late 30s is even assuming that they want to be yoked to a job at almost 70 years old.

This is probably a person who currently uses their free time to watch lots of TV. Retirement to them simply means watching more TV, not traveling the world, getting fit, meeting new friends, taking on new projects, reading all the books, etc.

[ixtap]

But were they talking about working til age 67? Or collecting SS at age 67?

Most people I know don't acknowledge that these are two separate things.

[snic]

There are also plenty of people who enjoy their jobs and/or feel like they are making a useful contribution with their work.

Perhaps, but wouldn't you think the total lack of foresight is weird?  Choosing not to leave a job that you enjoy at 35 is far different than assuming you will still enjoy it, and no other life circumstances will prevent you from working it, at 60. 

Most people simply want to spend more today than would allow them to save more than 10%.  The 'what would I do until 67' is a way to rationalize what all the "experts" are telling them.

I think it's just a total lack of exposure to alternative ideas. Many of us were brought up with the expectation that we are to go to college, get a good job, continue working until we're old, and then retire and die. So it is not "the experts" that are influencing people; it's the expectations of society as a whole, which includes our parents, friends, and co-workers. At the age of 35, many/most people are simply not thinking about retirement or what happens afterwards. It takes an epiphany to realize that you can follow an alternative path, and another one to come up with a set of things that are different from work that you would like to occupy yourself with once retired (*). Even after it dawns on you that you COULD save a lot today and retire earlier, it's such an unusual path that I think many people are scared of it. Continuing to work is the expected, normal thing, and most people are uncomfortable with deviating from the expected, normal thing.

*Re the underlined part - I'm about 8 years from the date I intend to retire slightly early, and still struggle with this part. I have some ideas, but am not certain that what I have in mind will be truly as fulfilling as my profession, which I like a lot at the moment.

[charis]

This is probably a person who currently uses their free time to watch lots of TV. Retirement to them simply means watching more TV, not traveling the world, getting fit, meeting new friends, taking on new projects, reading all the books, etc.

They actually watch almost no TV, do people still do that?  Daily activities are generally gym, work, running children to various activities, and going to bed early, maybe too much tiktok.  I think it's really just about being consumed by work and family, and having an expensive life.

[NorthernIkigai]

There are also plenty of people who enjoy their jobs and/or feel like they are making a useful contribution with their work.

Perhaps, but wouldn't you think the total lack of foresight is weird?  Choosing not to leave a job that you enjoy at 35 is far different than assuming you will still enjoy it, and no other life circumstances will prevent you from working it, at 60. 

Most people simply want to spend more today than would allow them to save more than 10%.  The 'what would I do until 67' is a way to rationalize what all the "experts" are telling them.

I think it's just a total lack of exposure to alternative ideas. Many of us were brought up with the expectation that we are to go to college, get a good job, continue working until we're old, and then retire and die. So it is not "the experts" that are influencing people; it's the expectations of society as a whole, which includes our parents, friends, and co-workers. At the age of 35, many/most people are simply not thinking about retirement or what happens afterwards. It takes an epiphany to realize that you can follow an alternative path, and another one to come up with a set of things that are different from work that you would like to occupy yourself with once retired (*). Even after it dawns on you that you COULD save a lot today and retire earlier, it's such an unusual path that I think many people are scared of it. Continuing to work is the expected, normal thing, and most people are uncomfortable with deviating from the expected, normal thing.

*Re the underlined part - I'm about 8 years from the date I intend to retire slightly early, and still struggle with this part. I have some ideas, but am not certain that what I have in mind will be truly as fulfilling as my profession, which I like a lot at the moment.

Yes to all of this! Most people I know really don't understand the difference between "stopping working because you can and want to" and "collecting old-age benefits which are scheduled to arrive in your account at a certain age". It's not that people don't *want* to do other things than work, they just can't imagine another future than working until they reach official retirement age. It's just the done thing. Then they're even happy they could work until their official retirement age and didn't have to leave because of ill health or restructuring!

When I carefully mention things like downshifting or retiring early, the response is often "but then you'll have a much lower pension (our version of social security)". Errr, yes, I'm not counting on that money to live on, also not when I start to collect it. People think you need to be a gazillionaire to retire early, they've never done the maths and wouldn't trust it if they did it.

If people don't spend all the money they earn, they don't think "this pot of money could let me retire earlier", because retiring early is just not an option in their mind. So instead they might just buy something somewhat extravagant like a holiday home, or help out their children or something, since they've got the money but they haven't got the imagination.

[ixtap]

There are also plenty of people who enjoy their jobs and/or feel like they are making a useful contribution with their work.

Perhaps, but wouldn't you think the total lack of foresight is weird?  Choosing not to leave a job that you enjoy at 35 is far different than assuming you will still enjoy it, and no other life circumstances will prevent you from working it, at 60. 

Most people simply want to spend more today than would allow them to save more than 10%.  The 'what would I do until 67' is a way to rationalize what all the "experts" are telling them.

I think it's just a total lack of exposure to alternative ideas. Many of us were brought up with the expectation that we are to go to college, get a good job, continue working until we're old, and then retire and die. So it is not "the experts" that are influencing people; it's the expectations of society as a whole, which includes our parents, friends, and co-workers. At the age of 35, many/most people are simply not thinking about retirement or what happens afterwards. It takes an epiphany to realize that you can follow an alternative path, and another one to come up with a set of things that are different from work that you would like to occupy yourself with once retired (*). Even after it dawns on you that you COULD save a lot today and retire earlier, it's such an unusual path that I think many people are scared of it. Continuing to work is the expected, normal thing, and most people are uncomfortable with deviating from the expected, normal thing.

*Re the underlined part - I'm about 8 years from the date I intend to retire slightly early, and still struggle with this part. I have some ideas, but am not certain that what I have in mind will be truly as fulfilling as my profession, which I like a lot at the moment.

Yes to all of this! Most people I know really don't understand the difference between "stopping working because you can and want to" and "collecting old-age benefits which are scheduled to arrive in your account at a certain age". It's not that people don't *want* to do other things than work, they just can't imagine another future than working until they reach official retirement age. It's just the done thing. Then they're even happy they could work until their official retirement age and didn't have to leave because of ill health or restructuring!

When I carefully mention things like downshifting or retiring early, the response is often "but then you'll have a much lower pension (our version of social security)". Errr, yes, I'm not counting on that money to live on, also not when I start to collect it. People think you need to be a gazillionaire to retire early, they've never done the maths and wouldn't trust it if they did it.

If people don't spend all the money they earn, they don't think "this pot of money could let me retire earlier", because retiring early is just not an option in their mind. So instead they might just buy something somewhat extravagant like a holiday home, or help out their children or something, since they've got the money but they haven't got the imagination.

Yes, we get a lot of responses that seem like either we are crazy or we actually cheated because we do things differently. Our SILs, who either have many children or wished to have more than they do, seem to think it was cheating to not have any. Ummm, that was your choice, we made ours... I have been especially surprised by the number of younger Baby Boomer women who want to drill down to what I do for money. I alternate between claiming to be a kept woman and claiming to be DH's caregiver. He doesn't need physical care anymore, but he still doesn't have the spoons for some of the regular chores like fixing dinner. He would rather engineer than figure out chores, so I play housewife while he gets paid to engineer part-time. You know what he generally does with the rest of his time? More engineering.

[Alternatepriorities]

Not at work as I FI and done with that :) but I have celebrate some friends who want to join me. They had a fantastic year with a relatively new business and wanted to talk about what to do with the extra money. Since their only debt is a mortgage at 3% it quickly became an investing discussion. Their income quadrupled and they plan to have zero lifestyle inflation. They're going to keep the same budget they had the past year while starting the business and invest the other 75%.

[snic]

There are also plenty of people who enjoy their jobs and/or feel like they are making a useful contribution with their work.

Perhaps, but wouldn't you think the total lack of foresight is weird?  Choosing not to leave a job that you enjoy at 35 is far different than assuming you will still enjoy it, and no other life circumstances will prevent you from working it, at 60. 

Most people simply want to spend more today than would allow them to save more than 10%.  The 'what would I do until 67' is a way to rationalize what all the "experts" are telling them.

I think it's just a total lack of exposure to alternative ideas. Many of us were brought up with the expectation that we are to go to college, get a good job, continue working until we're old, and then retire and die. So it is not "the experts" that are influencing people; it's the expectations of society as a whole, which includes our parents, friends, and co-workers. At the age of 35, many/most people are simply not thinking about retirement or what happens afterwards. It takes an epiphany to realize that you can follow an alternative path, and another one to come up with a set of things that are different from work that you would like to occupy yourself with once retired (*). Even after it dawns on you that you COULD save a lot today and retire earlier, it's such an unusual path that I think many people are scared of it. Continuing to work is the expected, normal thing, and most people are uncomfortable with deviating from the expected, normal thing.

*Re the underlined part - I'm about 8 years from the date I intend to retire slightly early, and still struggle with this part. I have some ideas, but am not certain that what I have in mind will be truly as fulfilling as my profession, which I like a lot at the moment.

Yes to all of this! Most people I know really don't understand the difference between "stopping working because you can and want to" and "collecting old-age benefits which are scheduled to arrive in your account at a certain age". It's not that people don't *want* to do other things than work, they just can't imagine another future than working until they reach official retirement age. It's just the done thing. Then they're even happy they could work until their official retirement age and didn't have to leave because of ill health or restructuring!

When I carefully mention things like downshifting or retiring early, the response is often "but then you'll have a much lower pension (our version of social security)". Errr, yes, I'm not counting on that money to live on, also not when I start to collect it. People think you need to be a gazillionaire to retire early, they've never done the maths and wouldn't trust it if they did it.

If people don't spend all the money they earn, they don't think "this pot of money could let me retire earlier", because retiring early is just not an option in their mind. So instead they might just buy something somewhat extravagant like a holiday home, or help out their children or something, since they've got the money but they haven't got the imagination.

Yes, we get a lot of responses that seem like either we are crazy or we actually cheated because we do things differently. Our SILs, who either have many children or wished to have more than they do, seem to think it was cheating to not have any. Ummm, that was your choice, we made ours... I have been especially surprised by the number of younger Baby Boomer women who want to drill down to what I do for money. I alternate between claiming to be a kept woman and claiming to be DH's caregiver. He doesn't need physical care anymore, but he still doesn't have the spoons for some of the regular chores like fixing dinner. He would rather engineer than figure out chores, so I play housewife while he gets paid to engineer part-time. You know what he generally does with the rest of his time? More engineering.

I think there are a lot of people like that. If you really love something like engineering, why would you want to stop doing it even when you have enough money to do so? Would we be so surprised if, say, a professional violinist decided to keep playing the violin during retirement? We intuitively understand that making music and art is something that even professional musicians and artists do mostly for themselves, not for money. There are people with professions ranging from accounting to engineering who feel the same way.

[Alternatepriorities]

I think there are a lot of people like that. If you really love something like engineering, why would you want to stop doing it even when you have enough money to do so? Would we be so surprised if, say, a professional violinist decided to keep playing the violin during retirement? We intuitively understand that making music and art is something that even professional musicians and artists do mostly for themselves, not for money. There are people with professions ranging from accounting to engineering who feel the same way.

Yeah the main change for me when I FIRE'd from mechanical engineering was switching to designing things that I want to have and then building them. The further up the career ladder and pay scale I went the less time management wanted me to spend on the actual building which is my favorite part of any design process. Of course that meant this summer I lived the oddity of retiring from a cushy engineering job to mix concrete by hand rather than pay for redi-mix...

Also I go outside to the mountains on the nice days now and work inside when the weather is bad.

[ixtap]

I think there are a lot of people like that. If you really love something like engineering, why would you want to stop doing it even when you have enough money to do so? Would we be so surprised if, say, a professional violinist decided to keep playing the violin during retirement? We intuitively understand that making music and art is something that even professional musicians and artists do mostly for themselves, not for money. There are people with professions ranging from accounting to engineering who feel the same way.

Yeah the main change for me when I FIRE'd from mechanical engineering was switching to designing things that I want to have and then building them. The further up the career ladder and pay scale I went the less time management wanted me to spend on the actual building which is my favorite part of any design process. Of course that meant this summer I lived the oddity of retiring from a cushy engineering job to mix concrete by hand rather than pay for redi-mix...

Also I go outside to the mountains on the nice days now and work inside when the weather is bad.

DH has spent this year studying photovoltaics, structural engineering and materiels engineering. My job is to point out more simple ways to do it or put the kaibosh on impractical solutions. The results are pretty impressive, but we now own a solar panel showroom (we have four different kinds installed, based on how they mount and how much shade is expected in that area, plus two smaller ones that can be set up anywhere) a smaller charge controller showroom, and bits and bobs of extruded aluminum that were replaced when he changed designs... And it still isn't enough to run the heater two nights in a row, so now he is working on air flow and hoses to improve heat pump efficiency...

I still teach on a volunteer basis, albeit on a different subject than my PhD, so I get it. I just thought he would be writing apps or helping the nephews code their games better or gathering data to analyze, not building stuff.

[SwordGuy]

I just thought he would be writing apps or helping the nephews code their games better or gathering data to analyze, not building stuff.

As a programmer of many decades, I can tell you how VERY SATISFYING it is to make something with my hands.

[ATtiny85]

I have reminded two friends over the years that they can be engineers while at home. One was acting clueless about how their HVAC system worked. The other was struggling with a car troubleshooting situation. These were both quite sharp mechanical engineers,  but seemed like they turned it off at home. Shrug

[ixtap]

I have reminded two friends over the years that they can be engineers while at home. One was acting clueless about how their HVAC system worked. The other was struggling with a car troubleshooting situation. These were both quite sharp mechanical engineers,  but seemed like they turned it off at home. Shrug

Some people are good X engineers. Some people are engineers to the very core. MIL has stories of DH doing engineering things at four, including drafting the designs for his Lego builds.

I have been called an honorary engineer and I can generally keep up with him on personal projects, but when it comes to what he does professionally, every one of his managers and most of his colleagues that I have met have used superlatives.

[Bear Stache]

My wife says real engineers are 24/7. We can't turn it off. I know several others in that category.

[LennStar]

My wife says real engineers are 24/7. We can't turn it off. I know several others in that category.

If you wake up in the morning and think about engineering, then you are an engineer.

[AMandM]

My wife says real engineers are 24/7. We can't turn it off. I know several others in that category.

If you wake up in the morning and think about engineering, then you are an engineer.

If you wake up in the middle of the night to think about engineering, then you are a REAL engineer.  ;-)  [Not me, my FIL.]

[Alternatepriorities]

My wife says real engineers are 24/7. We can't turn it off. I know several others in that category.

If you wake up in the morning and think about engineering, then you are an engineer.

If you wake up in the middle of the night to think about engineering, then you are a REAL engineer.  ;-)  [Not me, my FIL.]

The danger with thinking about details in the middle of the night is that they tend to wake my brain up rather than help it fall asleep. It's better to stick to high level conceptual things that can fade into dreams... Once I start really trying solve specifics sleep is way less likely.

[lifeisshort123]

I would retire tomorrow if I could.

I think for many people it is a combination of the following:

1. Unable to retire
2. Unable to imagine a life where they might be able to retire early
3. Poor financial literacy training

[TheGrimSqueaker]

My wife says real engineers are 24/7. We can't turn it off. I know several others in that category.

If you wake up in the morning and think about engineering, then you are an engineer.

If you wake up in the middle of the night to think about engineering, then you are a REAL engineer.  ;-)  [Not me, my FIL.]

If you use the Collatz conjecture to put yourself to sleep at night, you win all the engineering on the Internet.