Author Topic: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition  (Read 485447 times)

Dave1442397

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1050 on: May 23, 2018, 10:54:24 AM »

I agree that exorbitant interest rates are cheaper than losing your house or your job for lack of transport, but >40% interest is, for lack of a different word, heartbreaking. 

There is a word. Several in fact. My translation website says:

Substantive
              extortion           
              racketeering           
              usuries           
              gombeen [FINAN.]           
              usury [FINAN.]           
              daylight robbery (Amer.)

I never read gombeen before. Looks Victorian-age for me :D

Gombeen was in common usage when I lived in Ireland - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombeen_man

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1051 on: May 23, 2018, 01:10:08 PM »

I agree that exorbitant interest rates are cheaper than losing your house or your job for lack of transport, but >40% interest is, for lack of a different word, heartbreaking. 

There is a word. Several in fact. My translation website says:

Substantive
              extortion           
              racketeering           
              usuries           
              gombeen [FINAN.]           
              usury [FINAN.]           
              daylight robbery (Amer.)

I never read gombeen before. Looks Victorian-age for me :D

Gombeen was in common usage when I lived in Ireland - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombeen_man

...shopkeepers and merchants who exploited the starving during the Irish Famine (1845-49)

Well, perfect fit then, Victoria started a decade earlier ^^

Ah, slang words, always a favorite dig for us writers :D I want to invent one that wil be known in all the world ;)

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1052 on: May 23, 2018, 05:36:31 PM »
How is this shit legal?

Those places are ALL OVER my area. Makes me sick. They are predators.

I have never understood the concept of predatory lender.  I'm not defending anyone or trying to start an argument, but someone needs to explain it to me.  If I open a storefront and sell a product that does exactly what it is supposed to, only I charge way more than others, how does that make me a predator?

It's predatory because it targets and profits off people in a disadvantaged situation.  It's not necessarily even immoral, and could even be argued a net positive to society, but I do think it's predatory.

Uturn

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1053 on: May 23, 2018, 06:50:25 PM »
How is this shit legal?

Those places are ALL OVER my area. Makes me sick. They are predators.

I have never understood the concept of predatory lender.  I'm not defending anyone or trying to start an argument, but someone needs to explain it to me.  If I open a storefront and sell a product that does exactly what it is supposed to, only I charge way more than others, how does that make me a predator?

It's predatory because it targets and profits off people in a disadvantaged situation.  It's not necessarily even immoral, and could even be argued a net positive to society, but I do think it's predatory.

I get that it is something that only people in bad financial situations use it, I get that there could a moral problem.  But how is it predatory?  Someone opened a business, their client walked in and agreed to the terms. 

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1054 on: May 23, 2018, 08:25:32 PM »
By which reasoning, being a pimp to homeless people or drug dealer to the poor is not predatory, either.


There are some people here who I won't be asking for advice on ethical investments.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1055 on: May 24, 2018, 03:41:44 AM »
My understanding is that the predatory element isn't necessarily the initial loan at high interest rates. Rather, it is a combination of obscuring the total cost of the loan from people who are likely to be financially and literally less literate, and encouraging an enduring relationship with the lender against the client's interests (e.g. upselling: "While you're here getting a loan for your rent and groceries, you could always tack on the cost of the latest iPhone! Payments would only be £10 more!"*)

*Terms and conditions apply, you will now end up increasing the payment period by 100 years - obscuring the true cost by giving selective details...

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1056 on: May 24, 2018, 01:43:25 PM »
The Unbanking of America was a really interesting look at the payday loan/check cashing industry and how the people who use these services value them and feel that banks do not want their business. Many feel that the clearly defined costs of these businesses save them money over banks with their overdraft fees and whatnot.

The author actually got jobs working at a couple of these establishments and got to know the customers.

I'm not exactly defending the business model, but it was a really eye-opening book for me--their customers just relate to money really differently from how I do.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1057 on: May 24, 2018, 01:54:59 PM »
How is this shit legal?

Those places are ALL OVER my area. Makes me sick. They are predators.

I have never understood the concept of predatory lender.  I'm not defending anyone or trying to start an argument, but someone needs to explain it to me.  If I open a storefront and sell a product that does exactly what it is supposed to, only I charge way more than others, how does that make me a predator?

It's predatory because it targets and profits off people in a disadvantaged situation.  It's not necessarily even immoral, and could even be argued a net positive to society, but I do think it's predatory.

I get that it is something that only people in bad financial situations use it, I get that there could a moral problem.  But how is it predatory?  Someone opened a business, their client walked in and agreed to the terms.

The venus flytrap simply opens it's doors and offers a sweet nectar.  Totally the fly's fault if it wanders in.

Dabnasty

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1058 on: May 24, 2018, 02:45:15 PM »
How is this shit legal?

Those places are ALL OVER my area. Makes me sick. They are predators.

I have never understood the concept of predatory lender.  I'm not defending anyone or trying to start an argument, but someone needs to explain it to me.  If I open a storefront and sell a product that does exactly what it is supposed to, only I charge way more than others, how does that make me a predator?

It's predatory because it targets and profits off people in a disadvantaged situation.  It's not necessarily even immoral, and could even be argued a net positive to society, but I do think it's predatory.

I get that it is something that only people in bad financial situations use it, I get that there could a moral problem.  But how is it predatory?  Someone opened a business, their client walked in and agreed to the terms.

Are you taking predatory to mean that they must be seeking out their "prey"? Or that they are misleading their customers? Because I don't think either of these are implied by the definition of predatory.

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1059 on: May 24, 2018, 03:35:35 PM »
How is this shit legal?

Those places are ALL OVER my area. Makes me sick. They are predators.

I have never understood the concept of predatory lender.  I'm not defending anyone or trying to start an argument, but someone needs to explain it to me.  If I open a storefront and sell a product that does exactly what it is supposed to, only I charge way more than others, how does that make me a predator?

It's predatory because it targets and profits off people in a disadvantaged situation.  It's not necessarily even immoral, and could even be argued a net positive to society, but I do think it's predatory.

I get that it is something that only people in bad financial situations use it, I get that there could a moral problem.  But how is it predatory?  Someone opened a business, their client walked in and agreed to the terms.

Are you taking predatory to mean that they must be seeking out their "prey"? Or that they are misleading their customers? Because I don't think either of these are implied by the definition of predatory.

There's a spectrum of practice associated with payday lending just as there is with banking. There are indeed lenders in the payday loan field who misrepresent their interest rates and hide their rules in the fine print so that they trap their customers into deals they don't understand... just as there are banks where it's common to open new accounts under a customer's name without their consent, or knowingly cash a stolen bank draft. All these activities are illegal, but there are some businesses out there that break the law.

The problem is that when one doesn't have direct experience or even a good, solid objective look at an industry, the only things that stand out will be the egregious extremes. Most banks would object to being characterized by the illegal behavior of W**** F**** for example. Yet because pretty much everyone here knows the ins and outs of banking and has done business with a variety of banks we've got the necessary perspective to draw distinctions between good and bad vendors. I doubt that more than a handful of people on this forum have ever been inside a title loan or payday loan company, much less enough different ones to have an accurate perspective of the good and bad points of the industry.

I will note that most banks are subject to federal regulation, whereas payday loan companies are generally smaller and subject to state regulation. State politicians are far more honest than federal ones, and by that I mean that they stay bought when it's time to vote for or against a bill. Payday lenders know how to lobby and who needs "campaign contributions". So although some states have been successful in capping interest rates, not all have.

As to the high interest rates, payday loans are made to high-risk individuals who often cannot get credit any other way. There's risk associated with this kind of loan. Has anyone actually studied whether the amount of interest charged might be proportionate to the risk the lender is taking?

PMG

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1060 on: May 24, 2018, 11:24:15 PM »
John Oliver did a piece on payday loans a couple years ago. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PDylgzybWAw

Alfred J Quack

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1061 on: May 25, 2018, 10:32:41 PM »
How is this shit legal?

Those places are ALL OVER my area. Makes me sick. They are predators.

I have never understood the concept of predatory lender.  I'm not defending anyone or trying to start an argument, but someone needs to explain it to me.  If I open a storefront and sell a product that does exactly what it is supposed to, only I charge way more than others, how does that make me a predator?

It's predatory because it targets and profits off people in a disadvantaged situation.  It's not necessarily even immoral, and could even be argued a net positive to society, but I do think it's predatory.

I get that it is something that only people in bad financial situations use it, I get that there could a moral problem.  But how is it predatory?  Someone opened a business, their client walked in and agreed to the terms.

Are you taking predatory to mean that they must be seeking out their "prey"? Or that they are misleading their customers? Because I don't think either of these are implied by the definition of predatory.

There's a spectrum of practice associated with payday lending just as there is with banking. There are indeed lenders in the payday loan field who misrepresent their interest rates and hide their rules in the fine print so that they trap their customers into deals they don't understand... just as there are banks where it's common to open new accounts under a customer's name without their consent, or knowingly cash a stolen bank draft. All these activities are illegal, but there are some businesses out there that break the law.

The problem is that when one doesn't have direct experience or even a good, solid objective look at an industry, the only things that stand out will be the egregious extremes. Most banks would object to being characterized by the illegal behavior of W**** F**** for example. Yet because pretty much everyone here knows the ins and outs of banking and has done business with a variety of banks we've got the necessary perspective to draw distinctions between good and bad vendors. I doubt that more than a handful of people on this forum have ever been inside a title loan or payday loan company, much less enough different ones to have an accurate perspective of the good and bad points of the industry.

I will note that most banks are subject to federal regulation, whereas payday loan companies are generally smaller and subject to state regulation. State politicians are far more honest than federal ones, and by that I mean that they stay bought when it's time to vote for or against a bill. Payday lenders know how to lobby and who needs "campaign contributions". So although some states have been successful in capping interest rates, not all have.

As to the high interest rates, payday loans are made to high-risk individuals who often cannot get credit any other way. There's risk associated with this kind of loan. Has anyone actually studied whether the amount of interest charged might be proportionate to the risk the lender is taking?

The risk is mainly for the lender, the amounts are generally not large enough to bring the payday loan company into problems unless a large amount of customers default but I can't imagine that being the case.

My biggest qualm with these loans is the inherent lack of a background check. When I take a bank loan or mortgage I have to specify my income to bills ratio including all other loans (including overdraft and creditcard). I checked with a payday loan company (out of interest, not necessity) and all they asked was income and rent/mortgage totals, no info on other loans or whatever.
What happens next is that people who are greedy (can't wait a week for their new iPhone) and people with problematic finances are interested. The iPhone people will likely pay back without issue (although I have read that youths got into problems because they didn't  oversee the results of this harmless loan) but tje other group is in a downward negative spiral where the added cost of the payday loan adds to the spiral and only makes it harder to escape. Worse even is that these people will see the loans as a necessity in stead of the bane that they in reality are, they are trying to cover one gap with an even bigger one.

Also, someone said that these loans are sometimes a means to prevent losing your house. I find it hard to believe that this is the case (barring very specific circumstances). I expect that not even banks in the USA will foreclose on houses with one missed payment which means there is a larger source of problems before this payday loan becomes a solution which comes back to covering one hole with a bigger one.

lemanfan

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1062 on: May 27, 2018, 09:39:14 AM »
Re these payday loans, I sort of remember a 99pi eposode that claimed that just the layout and pricing transparancy made them more attractive to the typical customer.  This should be the link to the podcast:

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/episode-18-check-cashing-stores-download-embed/

But ... I'm not american, so I don't really know. 

Here in Sweden, the most comparable thing are "SMS loans", extremely expensive small loans taken by a phone app (and previously by just texting your personal number (social security number equivalent) and bank account no) and then got the money in minutes.  No interest rate, but a steep "fixed fee".  Everyone has a phone and a bank account here, and checks disappeared back in the 90:ies.
 
And "everyone" does not include the paperless immigrants.  :(  We are starting to get unbanked people here too.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 09:41:56 AM by lemanfan »

talltexan

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1063 on: May 30, 2018, 09:19:45 AM »
What seems predatory about lending is that we have this reality in which people in society are sorted and offered credit on such wildly different terms. The privileged--who've built up their credit--are offered low cost/low risk credit, and this happens in the same market as these remarkably high APR loans.

We can have the debate about the factors that sort someone into one or the other group; I'd argue that at least some of those are beyond the control of the borrower. So the lenders price these loans for their higher risk, and to an outside observer, it appears that they're offering a product at a much higher price than what is available in other places, and selling that product to someone who is desperate for reasons he/she cannot control. It's rare to encounter such a dramatic multiple as the 391% interest rate for a check-cashing loan compared to the 3% interest rate I'm paying to transfer a credit card balance in another market.

I have a friend from graduate school (he and I both have Ph.D.'s in economics) who's made his career out of studying these types of businesses. His research has systematically pealed back layers of the onion and made these types of transactions seem more reasonable for buyers. You can read more about his work here: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Marc_Fusaro

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1064 on: May 30, 2018, 11:49:21 AM »
I reject the thought that one gets low credit rating because of priveledge.

DH moved to the USA in his 30's.   White educated male.  No job at first (married to me). 
The only card he could get with his "0" credit score was a pre-paid deposit one, with an annual fee.

So, $200 down, plus an annual fee of $50 after 1 year (no fee at start) and he got a lower fee card.
After 2 years, he has a very good credit score, no problem.

It only took 2 years, and $50 (net) to make it happen, plus $200 up front money that was returned.

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1065 on: May 30, 2018, 04:52:31 PM »
The relationship between credit rating and privilege works like this. Privilege is a situation where your surroundings are set up to protect you and allow you to benefit from the results of your hard work, sometimes disproportionately. It involves you being given the benefit of the doubt when there's a misunderstanding, it involves receiving at least basic instruction in the system and some help when you need it, and it involves you being given chances to learn (and fail a bit) when the stakes are low.

For an example of a person who isn't privileged, consider a child from a poor family whose family decides to put the utility bill in her name "because she's got clean credit". They skip out on the bill, leaving it unpaid. In an underclass family, children are often exploited financially this way. They also face enormous pressure to "share" their student loans with their family, providing at least partial support for the sister who's having another baby, the brother who needs bail money, the father who wants to go to the casino, and Mom who "needs" more Oxy. If the young adult says "no", his or her belongings are generally taken, stolen, or otherwise sabotaged so that the enabling can continue.

Living in a poor neighborhood, until recently, would get you "redlined" or refused a loan. This limited your opportunity to build up credit. These days, you need some kind of regular address to get a loan or a credit card. If you're couch surfing, your driver's license, vehicle registration, and such may be at different addresses. That doesn't look good to a lender. Neither does a "lapse" on your car insurance from the time when you decided to just park it for a few months.

Being from a middle-class background or higher allows people to learn at least a little bit about banking, credit, and how the system works. That makes it easier to avoid NSF fees due to bank card transactions, and it makes it easier to avoid writing a bad check. Keeping a bank account balanced is a skill that not everyone gets to practice at an early age, graduating from savings to checking to whatever. Note also that a parent's ability to open and maintain a bank account will affect the child's ability to do so. If Mom or Dad isn't welcome at the bank, a minor does not have the legal right to open his or her own account.

Then of course there are the preferential offers that avalanche onto people their first year at university: a person who's working and not going to school just doesn't get them, so they don't receive the opportunity to get a store card or a credit card, charge a little, and pay it off every month. The products sold to poorer people tend to be the (more profitable to the bank) prepaid variety that does absolutely nothing to build credit.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1066 on: May 30, 2018, 07:36:08 PM »
@Goldielocks and @TheGrimSqueaker are both correct.


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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1067 on: May 31, 2018, 12:50:02 AM »
It only took 2 years, and $50 (net) to make it happen, plus $200 up front money that was returned.
It also took not getting hit with huge medical bills, not having your car brake down when you will lose your job without it, and not getting arrested because someone didn’t like your face. Unless there’s a specific skill in avoiding these things, I’d say it’s not that simple.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1068 on: May 31, 2018, 11:42:17 PM »
It only took 2 years, and $50 (net) to make it happen, plus $200 up front money that was returned.
It also took not getting hit with huge medical bills, not having your car brake down when you will lose your job without it, and not getting arrested because someone didnít like your face. Unless thereís a specific skill in avoiding these things, Iíd say itís not that simple.

I did not say it was simple... my point is that DH and another friend I know, have all the "privilege" that society grants educated (or high school graduated) middle class white males, and yet credit for both of them was not an automatic, they had a bit of trouble getting it started at first.   (DH being new to the country and my friend because he did not go to university and trying to get credit with a low paid job is quite hard)

My point, even after reading Grim's post, is that credit does not hinge on privledge now-a-days.  Yes there is a whirlwind of other dis-opportunity that society presents people, I don't recognize the direct link between credit and privledge.  (indirect at best)

Only the "getting arrested because someone didn't like your face" is the item that did not apply to them (unless you count being detained for several hours by border patrol because they did not like the way they were dressed  and the age of their car counts).

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1069 on: June 01, 2018, 09:19:04 AM »
It only took 2 years, and $50 (net) to make it happen, plus $200 up front money that was returned.
It also took not getting hit with huge medical bills, not having your car brake down when you will lose your job without it, and not getting arrested because someone didnít like your face. Unless thereís a specific skill in avoiding these things, Iíd say itís not that simple.

I did not say it was simple... my point is that DH and another friend I know, have all the "privilege" that society grants educated (or high school graduated) middle class white males, and yet credit for both of them was not an automatic, they had a bit of trouble getting it started at first.   (DH being new to the country and my friend because he did not go to university and trying to get credit with a low paid job is quite hard)

My point, even after reading Grim's post, is that credit does not hinge on privledge now-a-days.  Yes there is a whirlwind of other dis-opportunity that society presents people, I don't recognize the direct link between credit and privledge.  (indirect at best)

Only the "getting arrested because someone didn't like your face" is the item that did not apply to them (unless you count being detained for several hours by border patrol because they did not like the way they were dressed  and the age of their car counts).

How exactly are you defining privilege? We may have a definition misalignment because I see four privilege factors already in your description of your DH:
- middle class background
- white (in a region where white is the norm; being the only white kid bused to a non-white school is *not* a privilege)
- male
- completed high school (as in, wasn't forced to drop out to support parents or siblings or to perform caregiving for a sick relative)

The first three things-- background, appearance, and gender-- aren't things people really pick for themselves. The last factor is one in which a student's choices and preferences do affect the outcome, however you may not be aware of the extent to which it's possible to be overcome by external events at an early age. Your DH's situation may seem like the norm, but let's look at the combined probability of having each attribute.

Here's a link to a Pew research study about upper, middle, lower-middle, upper-middle, lower, and upper class in America. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/the-american-middle-class-is-losing-ground/ According to the Pew paper, only about 50% of America is middle-class, but the un-privileged classes (lower and lower-middle) make up about 29% based on income. That means about 71% are middle-class or higher and the probability of being in your DH's "class" set would be about 0.71. The US census information from census.gov describes about 49.2% of Americans as male and 76.9% of all Americans as meeting the government definition of "white" (and that definition is an entirely different can of worms, as any child of Irish, Italian, or Slavic immigrants can attest). I found a 2016 Washington Post article saying that 83.2 percent of US kids graduate from high school, although the same article notes that kids from poorer families are still doing very badly-- I'll get to probability distribution later).

0.71 x 0.492 x 0.769 x 0.832 = 0.223 which means that if privilege factors did not correlate and were distributed uniformly (they're not), only about 22.3% of Americans would have the same privilege factors as your DH, or better.

Now, those numbers assume privilege is binary, but wealth isn't. For example, a female trust fund baby doesn't have the privilege associated with being male, and a star NBA athlete of recent African descent doesn't have the privilege associated with being white, but both of them probably are more privileged than your DH due to being wealthy. We can think of the end result of all the various factors-- a person's total privilege level, as it were-- as something that has a spectrum. Not being on the very high end of the privilege spectrum isn't the same as being at the low end. Yet on a day-to-day basis, there's just as much difference between the lifestyle of a person at the low end and a person at the middle as you'd see between a person at the middle and someone at the high end. The dollar difference between middle and high end is far bigger, but a lot of the things people on this board take for granted aren't available at the seriously low end.

Probably nobody came up to your DH and said: "Here's a free car/scholarship/movie ticket because you're <insert privilege factor here>". That's not how privilege works. It's seldom that overt.

I define privilege as a situation where the system you're in is set up to basically accommodate you: if you follow the rules, work hard, and do the "right" thing by deferring gratification or avoiding any egregious destructive behavior, you will generally experience success and get to keep a portion of the results of your labor. You may still experience bad treatment by individuals and incidents in which you're a victim of violence, or not given credit for your work, or not taken seriously when you report a problem, but those incidents will be isolated and not the norm. Such mistakes as you make will be less likely to produce long-term, life changing negative consequences, and opportunities to improve your situation will be available to you without requiring significant changes in your default behaviors.

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1070 on: June 01, 2018, 11:37:37 AM »
Quote
According to the Pew paper, only about 50% of America is middle-class, but the un-privileged classes (lower and lower-middle) make up about 29% based on income. That means about 71% are middle-class or higher and the probability of being in your DH's "class" set would be about 0.71. The US census information from census.gov describes about 49.2% of Americans as male and 76.9% of all Americans as meeting the government definition of "white" (and that definition is an entirely different can of worms, as any child of Irish, Italian, or Slavic immigrants can attest). I found a 2016 Washington Post article saying that 83.2 percent of US kids graduate from high school

0.71 x 0.492 x 0.769 x 0.832 = 0.223

Uh, there is a lot of reason for your "math" to be wrong, the easiest one that the graduation rate is already influenced by the other 3 ;)

But it gets way more complicated. Living in a cheap house near a big street? Noise when doing homework, bad sleep? Or iving in a villa with private tutor?
Parents divorced? (about one class back in school)

Statistically the number of books in the household is very important for college graduation. Of course the existance is not the deciding factor, it is more a correlation, but you see how seemingly simple things can add up to a mountain of (anti-)privilege.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1071 on: June 01, 2018, 05:37:30 PM »
It only took 2 years, and $50 (net) to make it happen, plus $200 up front money that was returned.
It also took not getting hit with huge medical bills, not having your car brake down when you will lose your job without it, and not getting arrested because someone didnít like your face. Unless thereís a specific skill in avoiding these things, Iíd say itís not that simple.

I did not say it was simple... my point is that DH and another friend I know, have all the "privilege" that society grants educated (or high school graduated) middle class white males, and yet credit for both of them was not an automatic, they had a bit of trouble getting it started at first.   (DH being new to the country and my friend because he did not go to university and trying to get credit with a low paid job is quite hard)

My point, even after reading Grim's post, is that credit does not hinge on privledge now-a-days.  Yes there is a whirlwind of other dis-opportunity that society presents people, I don't recognize the direct link between credit and privledge.  (indirect at best)

Only the "getting arrested because someone didn't like your face" is the item that did not apply to them (unless you count being detained for several hours by border patrol because they did not like the way they were dressed  and the age of their car counts).

How exactly are you defining privilege? We may have a definition misalignment because I see four privilege factors already in your description of your DH:
- middle class background
- white (in a region where white is the norm; being the only white kid bused to a non-white school is *not* a privilege)
- male
- completed high school (as in, wasn't forced to drop out to support parents or siblings or to perform caregiving for a sick relative)

The first three things-- background, appearance, and gender-- aren't things people really pick for themselves. The last factor is one in which a student's choices and preferences do affect the outcome, however you may not be aware of the extent to which it's possible to be overcome by external events at an early age. Your DH's situation may seem like the norm, but let's look at the combined probability of having each attribute.

Here's a link to a Pew research study about upper, middle, lower-middle, upper-middle, lower, and upper class in America. http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/the-american-middle-class-is-losing-ground/ According to the Pew paper, only about 50% of America is middle-class, but the un-privileged classes (lower and lower-middle) make up about 29% based on income. That means about 71% are middle-class or higher and the probability of being in your DH's "class" set would be about 0.71. The US census information from census.gov describes about 49.2% of Americans as male and 76.9% of all Americans as meeting the government definition of "white" (and that definition is an entirely different can of worms, as any child of Irish, Italian, or Slavic immigrants can attest). I found a 2016 Washington Post article saying that 83.2 percent of US kids graduate from high school, although the same article notes that kids from poorer families are still doing very badly-- I'll get to probability distribution later).

0.71 x 0.492 x 0.769 x 0.832 = 0.223 which means that if privilege factors did not correlate and were distributed uniformly (they're not), only about 22.3% of Americans would have the same privilege factors as your DH, or better.

Now, those numbers assume privilege is binary, but wealth isn't. For example, a female trust fund baby doesn't have the privilege associated with being male, and a star NBA athlete of recent African descent doesn't have the privilege associated with being white, but both of them probably are more privileged than your DH due to being wealthy. We can think of the end result of all the various factors-- a person's total privilege level, as it were-- as something that has a spectrum. Not being on the very high end of the privilege spectrum isn't the same as being at the low end. Yet on a day-to-day basis, there's just as much difference between the lifestyle of a person at the low end and a person at the middle as you'd see between a person at the middle and someone at the high end. The dollar difference between middle and high end is far bigger, but a lot of the things people on this board take for granted aren't available at the seriously low end.

Probably nobody came up to your DH and said: "Here's a free car/scholarship/movie ticket because you're <insert privilege factor here>". That's not how privilege works. It's seldom that overt.

I define privilege as a situation where the system you're in is set up to basically accommodate you: if you follow the rules, work hard, and do the "right" thing by deferring gratification or avoiding any egregious destructive behavior, you will generally experience success and get to keep a portion of the results of your labor. You may still experience bad treatment by individuals and incidents in which you're a victim of violence, or not given credit for your work, or not taken seriously when you report a problem, but those incidents will be isolated and not the norm. Such mistakes as you make will be less likely to produce long-term, life changing negative consequences, and opportunities to improve your situation will be available to you without requiring significant changes in your default behaviors.
Hey grim.  I think it is a mis-communication.
My point is that even priveldged persons (excessively so), have the same hurdles for credit that others do.   If you don't get credit for your country in college, then it is a hurdle.

e.g.,   Priveldge =/= easy access to credit...   (and what the banks can deny you for no longer excludes people because of pure race or quasi (zip code exclusion) reasons).

all the other points in your argument are valid, but I find them too indirect to say that privledge = easier access to credit.

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1072 on: June 02, 2018, 03:56:50 PM »
I define privilege as a situation where the system you're in is set up to basically accommodate you: if you follow the rules, work hard, and do the "right" thing by deferring gratification or avoiding any egregious destructive behavior, you will generally experience success and get to keep a portion of the results of your labor.
Someone expressed it well earlier, I think, as: privilege means you're given the benefit of the doubt. For example if you're hiring someone, do you assume they're useless and they have to prove they're competent, or do you assume they're competent and they have to prove they're useless?

And the same person can have privilege in one situation but not another. A woman is given the benefit of doubt in court while a man isn't, but the situation is reversed when they talk to the bank manager about extending credit.

That's why Caitlin Jenner was named "woman of the year" despite still having male genitals, the transgendered have not had the benefit of the doubt for so long that there's a reaction to be seen endorsing them even when other aspects of their behaviour are less than shiny - Jenner recklessly killing someone while driving, etc. But Jenner's getting away with killing someone will also have to do with her wealth, since an expensive lawyer will bring more resources of eloquence, precedent, various legal delays and so on than would a cheap lawyer.

And of course, transwoman Jenny who can't get a steady job because of being trans and thus prostituting herself on the streets of LA to fund her treatments wasn't named "woman of the year" by anyone.

So it can be complicated. But the people I feel for are those who are not privileged in any situation at all. And these are mostly outside our First World countries, though we have some, for example Aboriginals here in Australia.

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1073 on: June 03, 2018, 01:05:36 AM »
Hey grim.  I think it is a mis-communication.
My point is that even priveldged persons (excessively so), have the same hurdles for credit that others do.   If you don't get credit for your country in college, then it is a hurdle.

e.g.,   Priveldge =/= easy access to credit...   (and what the banks can deny you for no longer excludes people because of pure race or quasi (zip code exclusion) reasons).

all the other points in your argument are valid, but I find them too indirect to say that privledge = easier access to credit.

OK, here's something a little more direct: physical logistics, or the ability to be at the right place at the right time to obtain an *opportunity* to get credit.

You have to get to the bank and interact with them long enough to get approved for credit, and you have to avoid the things that show up as negative information on a credit report.

When a credit card company sets up a booth on a college campus and hands out preapproved applications to every student with a pulse, then unless they also set up shop in the local barrio where the high school dropouts go, it *is* uneven access to credit. Them that's got, shall get (as the late Billie Holliday once sang).

When you have a family that owns a vehicle or are able to afford the rent to live near a regular public transit line, you stand a chance of getting to a bank during business hours. If you live out in the sticks and have to beg a ride every time you go somewhere, or you can't afford the gas, you can't apply in person. Online might be an option, if you have access to a working computer or Smart phone and an Internet connection. There are still a lot of places in this country where wireless or landline access simply doesn't exist because it wasn't profitable enough for a corporation to consider it worthwhile to link you up. You'd better be able to afford a satellite phone. If you're lucky enough to have been born in a place where there's a functional cellular signal or access to a landline, then to have Net access in your house requires a family member who pays the bills, and to have a functional Smart phone in the first place means you either have the kind of job where you can afford it, or you're on someone's family plan. If even one of these things line up for you, it's physically possible to apply for credit online. Everyone else is out of luck.

When you're born in this country and develop 10 years' worth of good credit history, you have the benefit of 10 years of good decision making. If you grow up somewhere else and develop 10 years' worth of good credit history, then return (or immigrate legally), you don't get the benefit of those 10 years of good decision making, because the banks go: "La-la-la-la-la... it didn't happen here so as far as we're concerned it didn't happen at all... but if you did something BAD, now we know all about that... la-la-la-la-la... get in line behind the felon con artist and the identity thief because you've got to start all over again at zero." (I know this because it happened to me.)

Then of course there's the literacy angle. If you're born into a family where there's a lot of learning disability, there's a good chance you, your parents, your siblings, and a lot of the people around you simply can't read well enough to understand and fill out a credit application. A privileged person, frankly, seldom has to deal with the consequences of a learning disability because he or she is streamed into Special Ed or has parents willing and able to help with homework or to pay for private tutors. Same goes for medical expenses, a motor vehicle accident (recall that privileged people can afford insurance premiums) or significant physical disability. Privileged people have a safety net that actually works. Other people do not.

If these points still don't meet your standards, what do I have to do to show you that not having a safety net has an effect on a person's credit rating? It seems pretty obvious to me that mistakes or unexpected glitches are a fact of life, and that only an extremely lucky person can skate through with no safety net and expect the same results as a person who's got one.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1074 on: June 04, 2018, 11:57:22 AM »
It's like we are looking at the same facts and coming to different conclusions...  :-0

Physical Logistics -- most banks prefer the online  or telephone applications for credit, some require an in-person signature in order to pick up the card.  I think we all agreed previously that one of the two items that people with limited means have is a cellphone (and cable).

Location - the large majority of people with a privilege disadvantage live in urban areas.   Rural areas and you need a car to get around, so if you have no money for a car, most people end up living in the city/town out of necessity.  For example, my cousin needs to drive for 10 minutes to get into cell service range, and he is quite poor (bad choices, lives in a home requiring repairs with a generator for electricity and no telephone, doesn't eat for lack of food sometimes) but he owns a car and a cell phone and drives himself to the local corner where there is cell service.

Agreed that if you don't get credit at college then it is hard.. I just say that it is hard for everyone.  There are people who went through college with only debit cards that now have equal trouble getting credit.

People living in "middle class" have parents with problems, too.  Parents that abuse credit in their kids' names, don't tell them anything about financial savviness. 

The people I know with disabilities seem to have a LOT of credit cards. 

My point of view--
It is hard for anyone who is not currently in college, including those with privilege,  to get the first credit card.  After the first card, credit is easy for everyone (who make minimum payments), not just those with privilege after that.   
With 2 years, and access to $200, anyone can get credit.

Hirondelle

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1075 on: July 22, 2018, 09:50:10 AM »
Last week at work, two of my coworkers reveiled that they usually cut their own hair! These aren't people I consider everyday mustachians, so I was very impressed/surprised!

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1076 on: July 22, 2018, 12:21:12 PM »
It's like we are looking at the same facts and coming to different conclusions...  :-0

Physical Logistics -- most banks prefer the online  or telephone applications for credit, some require an in-person signature in order to pick up the card.  I think we all agreed previously that one of the two items that people with limited means have is a cellphone (and cable).

Location - the large majority of people with a privilege disadvantage live in urban areas.   Rural areas and you need a car to get around, so if you have no money for a car, most people end up living in the city/town out of necessity.  For example, my cousin needs to drive for 10 minutes to get into cell service range, and he is quite poor (bad choices, lives in a home requiring repairs with a generator for electricity and no telephone, doesn't eat for lack of food sometimes) but he owns a car and a cell phone and drives himself to the local corner where there is cell service.

Agreed that if you don't get credit at college then it is hard.. I just say that it is hard for everyone.  There are people who went through college with only debit cards that now have equal trouble getting credit.

People living in "middle class" have parents with problems, too.  Parents that abuse credit in their kids' names, don't tell them anything about financial savviness. 

The people I know with disabilities seem to have a LOT of credit cards. 

My point of view--
It is hard for anyone who is not currently in college, including those with privilege,  to get the first credit card.  After the first card, credit is easy for everyone (who make minimum payments), not just those with privilege after that.   
With 2 years, and access to $200, anyone can get credit.

Getting credit is simple enough in that position. The key is maintaining a steady account balance of well more than $200, and then you apply to a no-fee credit card at the bank where you hold the cash. Typically, they'll approve you, ecause they can see you have enough money to cover the $200 limit. Then you're off, and you just pay your bill off constantly. At some point, ask for an increase. 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4500, 6000...and you're there. The key is remmbering to pay off the balance in full every month and choose a card with cash back rewards (unless you're a business or frequent traveler, then it might make sense to get a card with miles, etc.)

jengod

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1077 on: July 31, 2018, 12:42:15 AM »
This is a neighbor not a work person, but I complemented my neighbor's flagpole and he proudly told me how he made it himself out of hardware-store materials for $8 versus a $200 "flagpole kit." I was so happy for that extra $192 he could invest somewhere.

Uturn

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1078 on: August 15, 2018, 12:31:37 PM »
A young, fresh out of college guy here in the office, looking for a new car because that is what folks do.  I don't tell him specifically what a bad choice that is.  I just mention a few things about how nice it is not having payments.  I don't have the stress of wondering what I will do if the company closes or I get fired.  I know that if life decides to throw me a curve ball, no one is going to come get my stuff.  He doesn't argue, but has the contemplating look. 

A few weeks later, I sit down with him and give him some unsolicited career advice.  I tell him that no matter what career he chooses and specializes in, when he is in his mid 40's, chances are he will be done with that job.  Been there, done that, sick of it.  And wouldn't it be nice if he had no debt and probably even some money set aside that would allow him to go do another career or job that pays less, but is more satisfying.  More confused looks as his brain tries to process this information that goes against all the propaganda that he has heard all of his life. 

Today he stops by my office and tells me that he will not be getting a new car, and has started savings. 

pachnik

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1079 on: August 15, 2018, 12:38:29 PM »
A young, fresh out of college guy here in the office, looking for a new car because that is what folks do.  I don't tell him specifically what a bad choice that is.  I just mention a few things about how nice it is not having payments.  I don't have the stress of wondering what I will do if the company closes or I get fired.  I know that if life decides to throw me a curve ball, no one is going to come get my stuff.  He doesn't argue, but has the contemplating look. 

A few weeks later, I sit down with him and give him some unsolicited career advice.  I tell him that no matter what career he chooses and specializes in, when he is in his mid 40's, chances are he will be done with that job.  Been there, done that, sick of it.  And wouldn't it be nice if he had no debt and probably even some money set aside that would allow him to go do another career or job that pays less, but is more satisfying.  More confused looks as his brain tries to process this information that goes against all the propaganda that he has heard all of his life. 

Today he stops by my office and tells me that he will not be getting a new car, and has started savings.

Very beautiful.  Thank you for this. 


Hirondelle

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1080 on: August 15, 2018, 02:47:45 PM »
A young, fresh out of college guy here in the office, looking for a new car because that is what folks do.  I don't tell him specifically what a bad choice that is.  I just mention a few things about how nice it is not having payments.  I don't have the stress of wondering what I will do if the company closes or I get fired.  I know that if life decides to throw me a curve ball, no one is going to come get my stuff.  He doesn't argue, but has the contemplating look. 

A few weeks later, I sit down with him and give him some unsolicited career advice.  I tell him that no matter what career he chooses and specializes in, when he is in his mid 40's, chances are he will be done with that job.  Been there, done that, sick of it.  And wouldn't it be nice if he had no debt and probably even some money set aside that would allow him to go do another career or job that pays less, but is more satisfying.  More confused looks as his brain tries to process this information that goes against all the propaganda that he has heard all of his life. 

Today he stops by my office and tells me that he will not be getting a new car, and has started savings.

Very beautiful.  Thank you for this.

That's totally amazing! Well done on this one, that's how you convert people!

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1081 on: August 16, 2018, 05:19:38 AM »
A young, fresh out of college guy here in the office, looking for a new car because that is what folks do.  I don't tell him specifically what a bad choice that is.  I just mention a few things about how nice it is not having payments.  I don't have the stress of wondering what I will do if the company closes or I get fired.  I know that if life decides to throw me a curve ball, no one is going to come get my stuff.  He doesn't argue, but has the contemplating look. 

A few weeks later, I sit down with him and give him some unsolicited career advice.  I tell him that no matter what career he chooses and specializes in, when he is in his mid 40's, chances are he will be done with that job.  Been there, done that, sick of it.  And wouldn't it be nice if he had no debt and probably even some money set aside that would allow him to go do another career or job that pays less, but is more satisfying.  More confused looks as his brain tries to process this information that goes against all the propaganda that he has heard all of his life. 

Today he stops by my office and tells me that he will not be getting a new car, and has started savings.

Very beautiful.  Thank you for this.

That's totally amazing! Well done on this one, that's how you convert people!

Now just a few weeks and side remarks, and you can introduce him to the church of mustachianism :D

cliner

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1082 on: August 17, 2018, 07:01:11 PM »
Talking with a work subordinate about spouses, finances, life, everything. Turns out she and her husband buy, rehab, and flip homes as a side hustle, and are apparently doing a good job at it. Colleague is a hard worker and is always willing to take on more clients. We didn't talk about exact numbers, but she hinted that they are avid savers. For example, she commented that she doesn't understand how anyone could pay more than $30 for a pair of jeans. I didn't pry much, but based on the conversations we've had about money, she seems to be in a good spot.

Linda_Norway

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1083 on: August 25, 2018, 01:17:10 AM »
First posted in the other, overheard at work thread, but I was pointed here:

Overheard at work by DH. The cook working in the caferaria at work is a Greek. In Norway salaries are a LOT higher than in Greece. The cook was planning to move back to Greece next year. Someone asked him if he would be able to afford a nice house there. Turns out the cook already purchased a 14! bedroom house in Greece and is in the process of renting out rooms to tourists. Next year he is planning to retire from his job as a cook and going to live in the 14 bedroom house, while renting out the rooms in the summer. :-)

The cook is 40-50 years old.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1084 on: August 30, 2018, 06:26:53 PM »
Not 100% Anti-Antimustacian but co-worker who is quite spendy in life but followed the max out our 401k today did see it hit 7 figures.  I made sure the newest person in the office found out.

barbaz

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1085 on: August 31, 2018, 12:07:06 AM »
I made sure the newest person in the office found out.
Very good. Proselytizing works much better when you can point to examples other than yourself.

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1086 on: August 31, 2018, 10:48:31 AM »
Talked to a young guy who just joined the company full-time.  He's already saving a ton, and has very ambitious plans to build a real estate empire.  Of course, he and his wife are about to have their first kid, so it'll be interesting to see how his perspective changes when he suddenly doesn't have as much time. :)

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1087 on: August 31, 2018, 01:54:25 PM »
Our company just implemented a new RRSP plan with a 50% match up to $2500 a year. The plan kicks in next month. It's based on calendar year. Several coworkers were calculating how much to contribute these 4 months to get that free 2500 before January.

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1088 on: September 05, 2018, 06:57:42 AM »
with that kind of math, it totally would make sense to borrow the $5,000 to get that 50% match.

ms

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1089 on: September 05, 2018, 07:22:18 AM »
with that kind of math, it totally would make sense to borrow the $5,000 to get that 50% match.

The only catch is that to get the match, it has to come off the paycheque as an auto deduction. But sure, borrow 5000 to cover regular costs and then set up the contributions off the paycheque.

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1090 on: September 07, 2018, 08:58:20 PM »
RE: privilege/credit, my daughter was given a credit card in her name on our account when she went off to college. It's been 9 years now and she hasn't used it for years, but she did say one time, don't take me off that account, your long and good credit history makes my credit score look very good.

talltexan

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1091 on: September 12, 2018, 06:52:56 AM »
Note: Daughter not using that particular credit card doesn't mean daughter isn't using other sources of credit.

BTDretire

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1092 on: September 12, 2018, 03:00:55 PM »
Note: Daughter not using that particular credit card doesn't mean daughter isn't using other sources of credit.
That's true enough, but she knows well enough that credit cards are paid in full every month.

talltexan

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1093 on: September 13, 2018, 07:03:54 AM »
RE: privilege/credit, my daughter was given a credit card in her name on our account when she went off to college. It's been 9 years now and she hasn't used it for years, but she did say one time, don't take me off that account, your long and good credit history makes my credit score look very good.

I benefit from the same thing with AAA. My grandmother joined in 1962. I got all of the years on the family membership when I started driving in 1998. It's fun to show people a card that says I've been a member of something for more than half a century when I'm still in my thirties.

gaja

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1094 on: September 13, 2018, 03:33:59 PM »
RE: privilege/credit, my daughter was given a credit card in her name on our account when she went off to college. It's been 9 years now and she hasn't used it for years, but she did say one time, don't take me off that account, your long and good credit history makes my credit score look very good.

I benefit from the same thing with AAA. My grandmother joined in 1962. I got all of the years on the family membership when I started driving in 1998. It's fun to show people a card that says I've been a member of something for more than half a century when I'm still in my thirties.

Many apartments in Norway belong to housing cooperatives, and when they are sold the members have the right of first refusal. In popular areas of Oslo, all new building projects, and a lot of the secondhand sales  are snatched up on ROFR. The oldest memberships are prioritized, and you can inherit from relatives. In some cases, youíll need memberships from the 60s or 70s to compete. We donít have very old memberships to these cooperatives in the family, but bought some for kids when they were born. The cooperatives are widespread; My kids got into a good kindergarten because my mother found some old memberships laying around from when my brother was little.

Linda_Norway

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1095 on: September 14, 2018, 01:00:36 AM »
Frugal co-worker when I told her I am working 80% from now: It is a really good idea to take time off now instead of waiting until you are 67. More people should do that. Is your husband also going to take Fridays off?
Me: Yes, soon. After his operation.
Co-worker: It sounds like you are easing your way into (early) retirement. (She knows about my FIRE plan). You have been really good at saving.
Me: I just don't buy so much shit like other people do. It is a matter of prioritizing. You go on a family visit in the US every year, that is what you prioritize, instead of spending mindlessly on other stuff.
Co-worker: At least I always save first, like when I want to go on a vacation of want to buy a car. I save first and buy cash. I'm not taking up loans for that.
Me: That is my way of living as well. One doesn't take up a loan for a car or a vacation. Lots of people think otherwise, strangely enough.

Refreshing to have other normal/frugal co-workers.

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1096 on: September 17, 2018, 08:12:34 PM »
Frugal co-worker when I told her I am working 80% from now: It is a really good idea to take time off now instead of waiting until you are 67. More people should do that. Is your husband also going to take Fridays off?
Me: Yes, soon. After his operation.
Co-worker: It sounds like you are easing your way into (early) retirement. (She knows about my FIRE plan). You have been really good at saving.
Me: I just don't buy so much shit like other people do. It is a matter of prioritizing. You go on a family visit in the US every year, that is what you prioritize, instead of spending mindlessly on other stuff.
Co-worker: At least I always save first, like when I want to go on a vacation of want to buy a car. I save first and buy cash. I'm not taking up loans for that.
Me: That is my way of living as well. One doesn't take up a loan for a car or a vacation. Lots of people think otherwise, strangely enough.

Refreshing to have other normal/frugal co-workers.
you two are going to miss each other.

I miss my ex-co-worker who is also new colleague. We left OldCo within months of each other to NewCo, but transitioned from working together at customer site to working from home. I'm back to customer site 60-80%, but he's not. We miss sitting and having lunch, discussing finance and economics and science and tech. It made the day bearable working for CluelessBoss and surrounded by CrazyCoWorkers.

Mesmoiselle

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1097 on: September 17, 2018, 08:23:07 PM »
I'm pretty open with my goal to FIRE , eh, everywhere. And I'll chew numbers with other Contract workers if they seem like they're open.

Coworker went on an extended weekend. When he got back, I asked him what he'd been up to, if it'd been fun.

Apparently for almost a decade, he and some college friends have kept in touch. They started an LLC where they all put in money, and as a group, make Stock buying decisions (actively trying to time the market). Their current goal, as a group, is for each member to get to 100k and start flipping houses together as this LLC. The members live in three different states across the US.

I'd don't know if I'd do it, but it sounded pretty damn mustachian to me. :)

Dabnasty

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1098 on: September 18, 2018, 12:39:25 PM »
Co-worker sold their Jeep Grand Cherokee and bought a '98 Honda Civic. They still commute 35 miles one way, but hey, at least it's in a small car with roughly twice the fuel efficiency.

Another is going to start driving an old Corolla that's been sitting in their driveway without tags for a couple years and give their F-150 a break. Their commute is about the same.

I don't know what drove their decisions, but I think they will be pleasantly surprised if they stick to it for a few years. Right now they're only factoring in the gas savings but of course there's more to it than that.



Linda_Norway

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Re: Overheard at Work: The Anti-Antimustachian Edition
« Reply #1099 on: September 24, 2018, 04:18:29 AM »
One of my colleagues had to work night shift last weekend. When he was in the office, he noticed a whole bunch of leftover apples in our fruit bowl. He remembered my advice that someone should take them home and make an apple pie, so he did. :-)

I told another colleague that I had made jam of leftover kiwi's from the office. He was very interested in how I did it. So maybe he'll try it next time.

Nice that people start using up leftover food instead of throwing it away on Monday.