Author Topic: No, I won't buy into your MLM  (Read 248856 times)

Joel

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1050 on: January 29, 2019, 11:44:02 PM »
Question...  knowing Amway (and other MLMs) are scams - how did that experience and what you learned about yourself help you retire "early"?  Certainly you didn't make any money with Amway.  What did you gain from that experience that helped?  Hoping this doesn't come across rude, but.... was it learning that losing money doesn't allow you to save money?  I'm genuinely interested in knowing how Amway allowed you to retire "early".

Fair enough questions and I fully expected these kind of MMM perspectives.  I'm not here to defend the MLM systems, but instead to provide my perspective on how I consider or 'rational' a positive from our experience.  And I readily acknowledge that my experience may not match others.

If there was only one road to finding the path to FIRE or happiness, then sadly most of use would be truly screwed.  I look at our Amway business period as one of many possible roads that I happened upon and chose to travel.  The Amway support system was a learning environment which was lacking in my life.  My AS, BS and MS with a Thesis certainly didn't teach me what I needed to do to reach FIRE.  8 years in nuclear submarines certainly didn't.  So lets talk about the experience and learning's that helped me.

It's true, financially we didn't get rich.  But we also didn't go broke or become desperate.  We had a great support system (up-line) who always put our needs before the business.  We 'learned' to budget and control our costs to allow us to participate in the program.  We had a great time going places, meeting new people, expanding our awareness of life around us and what was possible.  We 'learned' how to use the tax system work to our advantage and this in turn helped us to reduce our overall costs.  My records show that over our 9 year active Amway period, we spent ~$14,800 and brought in ~$4,000.  Hence a 'loss' of $10,800 over 9 yrs, or ~$1,200 yr.   And this was before any tax write offs.  To account for this loss, we adjusted vacation $$ to the business (and still got to travel), cut out cable extras, and 'learned' that we didn't need a new car every few years.  To our surprise, despite the business not making us millionaires overnight, our year to year finances were slowly improving.

And while 'learning' during these 9 years, we were encouraged by our support group (up-line) to ramp up our savings, both in retirement and non-retirement accounts.  This forced me to really 'learn' about my 401K plan, quickly realizing I was leaving money on the table, and that my investment selections were not optimal for our goals.  A vast amount of the funds we saved during these 9 yrs went a long way to our FIRE in 2015.

One very important thing we 'learned' from the Amway business was about ourselves.  I'll be honest, we were not in a good stable relationship.  Couples therapy was just one long drawn out agony, not to mention the cost (which was more that $1,200 a year sometimes).  And yes, it was tough trying to do the business and having marital issues.  Slowly we started seeing changes in ourselves, and how we valued each others support and input.  The time we spent together highlighted our faults but magnified our strengths and blessings.  We included our kids as much as possible in the business trips, and they grew and strengthened as we got our relationship shit together.  We recognized that we were blessed and worked hard to keep the positive improvements moving forward.  Bumps in the road (even now) are cushioned by what we 'learned' in the system.   The Amway support system came at the right time for us and we truly believe that without it, we would have divorced in a few short years.   Divorce can ruin many chances of FIRE, and I know of many divorced friends, family and co-workers who have to post-pone their retirement goals due to the financial impact that it creates.  Or as my wife likes to kid me now:  I was too cheap to get divorced!

Shortly after 9/11, our Amway business suffered, we lost some great up-line (support), and our heart just wasn't in it anymore.  We let the business limp on till around 2004 when we dropped out for good.  We actively  took what we had 'learned' about life, finances, dreams, and each other; and set new and exciting goals for ourselves.  The Amway business/support system was our School of Hard Knocks, and it only cost us $10,800 for both of us.  Compare that to a college degree these days.  So from 2002 until FIRE in 2015 (4 years ahead of schedule), we became mini-mustaches without even knowing about MMM (until later).

In retrospect,  from 1982 (married) to 1995 (joined Amway), we wasted/lost so much money from frequent bad new auto purchases, bad stock buys (get rich quick $5K Alaskan Apollo Gold Mines), over the top vacations, unnecessary luxury's (indoor hot tub), and poor retirement planning to name a few.  Easily $4-6K yr.  From 1995-2002 (active Amway period), we cut our expenses and only spent $1,400 yr investing in ourselves.  We also improved our savings, saved our marriage and despite the struggle, can look back fondly on the good times we had.  From 2002-2015, we became a lean mean saving machine.  And we still made time and $$ for fun things to build upon.  My wife was able to pursue her spiritual passion and became a pastor.  She attributes the Amway experience to giving her the belief in herself and strength to complete the process.  In 2015, the stars aligned and we went for it.  All the pre-planning paid off, and here we are 4 years later, still financially secure, healthy and enjoying our retirement and all that it offers.  It only took $10,800 of 'learning', 20 years of delayed gratification, and a lot of hard work.

Again, this was my path, my road to FIRE.  Your mileage and experiences may vary.  Would I do it again?  Knowing what I know now, no.  But how does one get to where they know what they know now without not knowing what they didn't know then?

I hope this reflection upon how I Amway'd, survived, and still FIRE'd provides the insight the dis-believers are seeking.  Please stay classy with your comments and rebukes.  And if you can't, at least include an emoji.  Either way, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

And to add fire to the FIRE, my darling wife and I will be celebrating our 37th anniversary this Oct at Walt Disney World (our happy place) using our DVC timeshare (oh the horror...) at Bay Lake Towers and our Annual Pass (women and children passing out)!!  But....  before you flame me for such an anti-MMM frivolous spending behavior, I at least booked the lowest cost studio (very MMM) and the Annual Pass was bought 8 yrs ago (part of the plan) and has appreciated in value 79% so far (extreme MMM), which will make each park visit for our 30 days of visits at Disney only ~$14.40 per person (mind blown MMM).

PS - be sure to see the POMS movie with Diane Keaton this Mother's Day weekend.  It was filmed in the 55+ community where we live now in Georgia.  If the water volleyball footage makes it into the movie, I'm the one looking all buff and sexy! (and bald).



I just want to say kudos to you!

Beard N Bones

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1051 on: January 30, 2019, 11:10:33 AM »

I hope this reflection upon how I Amway'd, survived, and still FIRE'd provides the insight the dis-believers are seeking.  Please stay classy with your comments and rebukes.  And if you can't, at least include an emoji.  Either way, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.


First off, congratulations on being married for over 37 years!  I hope you and your wife, on that October day, celebrated in style.  Secondly, nicely done in getting to financial independence earlier than planned!  (You've got me beat on both accounts, but I am over 20 years your younger.)  And, I'm amazed you got out of [that abhorred MLM] as well off as you did!

So to summarize what you got from your time with Amway...
- you found a support network
- your needs were put before business
- you learned how to budget
- you learned how to work the tax system to your advantage
- you learned how to live on less
- your world expanded in traveling with Amway
- a $10,800 LOSS over 9 years.

I appreciate, and am amazed, at all of the positives you were able to take away from being involved with the Greatest Business Scam of all time - MLMs.

That said, time for two personal rabbit trails...
Rabbit trail #1 - Twelve years ago I dove into shallow water and broke my neck and my back.  Horrible and tragic you say?  Yeah I agree, it wasn't pretty.  But there are many good things I've been able to take away from that trauma - the greatest being I know that I my life still has purpose (because for all intents and purposes, I should be paralyzed or dead) and I now have a greater empathy for my patients (I work in healthcare.)
Rabbit trail #2 - Ten years ago I proposed to my girlfriend of the time.  She didn't give me a "yes" or "no".  She wanted to think about it for a month before giving me an answer.  Sucky much?  Oh yeah!  Exceptionally sucky!  After that month, I was the one to break things off and move on.  And there was so much good that came out of that situation - interpersonal growth, relationship growth, personal growth, etc. 

And so I give you a couple of life experiences that show how I can relate - in how a really bad life situation can still bring forth some good.  But do I ever wish upon someone a broken neck and back (physical tragedy) or a nasty failed relationship (relationship tragedy) so they can better understand, and not take for granted, good health and good relationships?!  No, never!  And so I am confident in saying that even though some good can come out of being involved with a MLM (I get tension in my shoulders and grit my teeth in typing this sentence out), I wouldn't wish an MLM on anyone.  An MLM is a good way to make money, just as a broken neck is to good health; just as a non-answer to a marriage proposal is to a good relationship.  This is all to say, in a very round about way, that not all paths are equally good in obtaining financial independence.  From a purely monetary perspective, an MLM will only get you to FI if you are a founder of an MLM - but you would be just as well off to create and lead a religious cult, or build and own a casino (take money from the poor/needy/addicted) if ethics are of no concern to a person.  [insert emoji :0]  I think it does our society an injustice if MLMs are viewed in any kind of positive light/spin.  This thread has it right - MLM's are the scrounge of our time and absolutely malicious. 

Two questions peabody58:
1.  What would your losses have looked like if you included the "tax write-offs"?  I would suspect they would look MUCH worse?
2.  Would you agree the MLM you were involved with was "cult-like"?  (A quick Google search of "Amway cult" comes up with approx. 349,000 results and some of the reading on the topic is interesting to say the least.)

OtherJen

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1052 on: January 31, 2019, 09:46:38 AM »
And an acquaintance is yet again blowing up my Facebook messenger box with MLM messages full of emoji. She hasn't contacted me about anything else for a couple of years. Seriously, do all MLMers take a course in random obnoxious emoji use?

I'm a red panda

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1053 on: January 31, 2019, 10:11:19 AM »
A friend posted yesterday "If you could have a bill magically paid for you, which bill would it be?"

She got about 80 responses.

Today she tagged all those people in "talk to me about a sidegig with (her MLM) that will pay those bills you were all complaining about!"

Um, a side gig is not magic.  I want a magical fairy to pay my daycare bill.  But currently, my maingig does just fine covering it. I don't want a side gig with an MLM.

I'm a red panda

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1054 on: January 31, 2019, 10:12:09 AM »
Either I skimmed poorly, or this wasn't posted.

The state of Washington is sueing LLR for being a pyramid scheme.

https://www.bizjournals.com/bizwomen/news/latest-news/2019/01/lawsuit-alleges-lularoe-pyramid-scheme-deceived.html?page=all

merula

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1055 on: January 31, 2019, 11:21:30 AM »

Catbert

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1056 on: January 31, 2019, 12:53:41 PM »
And an acquaintance is yet again blowing up my Facebook messenger box with MLM messages full of emoji. She hasn't contacted me about anything else for a couple of years. Seriously, do all MLMers take a course in random obnoxious emoji use?

Yes.

Hunny156

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1057 on: February 04, 2019, 10:27:32 AM »
For those of you watching the LuLaRoe Defective page on FB, it was shut down last week, due to "policy violations".  The mods set up a 2.0 page, and it was immediately shut down as well.  So, they have moved over to Reddit.  Join the group at r/DefectiveDetectives, court case docs and all the other interesting screenshots are being uploaded.

OtherJen

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1058 on: February 04, 2019, 05:11:44 PM »
I just unfollowed an acquaintance on Facebook and blocked direct messages because she's added a second MLM to her repertoire and has started sending emoji messages about that. No, I don't want to put weird stickers on my fingernails! Good grief. I didn't want them when my SIL was hawking Jamberry a few years ago, and I certainly don't want Color Street now.

jinga nation

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1059 on: February 05, 2019, 07:45:21 AM »
I just unfollowed an acquaintance on Facebook and blocked direct messages because she's added a second MLM to her repertoire and has started sending emoji messages about that. No, I don't want to put weird stickers on my fingernails! Good grief. I didn't want them when my SIL was hawking Jamberry a few years ago, and I certainly don't want Color Street now.

As a kid, I'd put sticker s on my fingernails, of googly eyes, stars, any black stickers. My kids stickerize their nails. Weird stickers on adult fingernails? Hmmm... why didn't I think of peddling this idea first? Should have put more effort into creating a MLM sucker pipeline instead of saving and investing.

MountainFlower

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1060 on: February 05, 2019, 12:55:41 PM »
MLM a.k.a. sucker pipeline. 

That is absolutely classic. 

Beard N Bones

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1061 on: February 16, 2019, 02:53:01 PM »

englishteacheralex

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1062 on: February 16, 2019, 03:50:41 PM »
Oh no one of my church friends has gotten sucked in to an MLM I haven't heard of before. Anybody heard of these...

"Smart coffee?"

"Happy coffee?"

"Elevacity?"

Now all my weak-minded church friends are getting sucked in. Oh noooooo...

My husband was looking at the many, many facebook posts with me. At first I thought it was maybe something legit? Because coffee? He's like, oh, that's another scammy MLM.

Are you sure?

OF COURSE IT'S A SCAMMY MLM!

Then he went off..."I think I'd rather my wife have an addiction to gambling than be an MLM person. At least with gambling it's fun and maybe you might win some money at some point..."






MountainFlower

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1063 on: February 19, 2019, 01:32:26 PM »

Then he went off..."I think I'd rather my wife have an addiction to gambling than be an MLM person. At least with gambling it's fun and maybe you might win some money at some point..."

Quote of the day.  Your husband is totally right.  Plus, you don't annoy all your friends with a gambling addition. 

Of course, a gambling addiction is nothing to make light of, but he has a point. 

mm1970

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1064 on: February 20, 2019, 12:57:41 PM »
Oh no one of my church friends has gotten sucked in to an MLM I haven't heard of before. Anybody heard of these...

"Smart coffee?"

"Happy coffee?"

"Elevacity?"

Now all my weak-minded church friends are getting sucked in. Oh noooooo...

My husband was looking at the many, many facebook posts with me. At first I thought it was maybe something legit? Because coffee? He's like, oh, that's another scammy MLM.

Are you sure?

OF COURSE IT'S A SCAMMY MLM!

Then he went off..."I think I'd rather my wife have an addiction to gambling than be an MLM person. At least with gambling it's fun and maybe you might win some money at some point..."

Shame on you!  It's MAGIC COFFEE.  And it's for weight loss.  And it's amazing.

RIGHT NOW IS THE TIME TO GET IN!  It's in the early stages.  THAT'S WHEN YOU MAKE MONEY (ya know, cuz you are at the top of the pyramid).  AND IT'S MAGIC.

Also: it's basically speed.  It took some sleuthing.  Because "I'll PM you" and all that.  But with looking at pictures long enough, and enlarging, and googling, I was able to find the name of the company and product.  Google the ingredients.  Yes, it's awesome for weight loss when diet and exercise didn't work, because it's speed.  It's an appetite suppressant.  You aren't eating ice cream before bed.  Who knew!

LifeHappens

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1065 on: February 20, 2019, 01:04:12 PM »

Then he went off..."I think I'd rather my wife have an addiction to gambling than be an MLM person. At least with gambling it's fun and maybe you might win some money at some point..."

Quote of the day.  Your husband is totally right.  Plus, you don't annoy all your friends with a gambling addition. 

Of course, a gambling addiction is nothing to make light of, but he has a point.
And the casino will comp you a buffet once in a while. Try getting a free meal out of HerbaLife.

englishteacheralex

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1066 on: February 20, 2019, 02:18:04 PM »
Oh no one of my church friends has gotten sucked in to an MLM I haven't heard of before. Anybody heard of these...

"Smart coffee?"

"Happy coffee?"

"Elevacity?"

Now all my weak-minded church friends are getting sucked in. Oh noooooo...

My husband was looking at the many, many facebook posts with me. At first I thought it was maybe something legit? Because coffee? He's like, oh, that's another scammy MLM.

Are you sure?

OF COURSE IT'S A SCAMMY MLM!

Then he went off..."I think I'd rather my wife have an addiction to gambling than be an MLM person. At least with gambling it's fun and maybe you might win some money at some point..."

Shame on you!  It's MAGIC COFFEE.  And it's for weight loss.  And it's amazing.

RIGHT NOW IS THE TIME TO GET IN!  It's in the early stages.  THAT'S WHEN YOU MAKE MONEY (ya know, cuz you are at the top of the pyramid).  AND IT'S MAGIC.

Also: it's basically speed.  It took some sleuthing.  Because "I'll PM you" and all that.  But with looking at pictures long enough, and enlarging, and googling, I was able to find the name of the company and product.  Google the ingredients.  Yes, it's awesome for weight loss when diet and exercise didn't work, because it's speed.  It's an appetite suppressant.  You aren't eating ice cream before bed.  Who knew!

Oh. Oh my God. You're kidding me. She posts a picture of her falling numbers as she stands on a scale every single day. Also keeps posting about how she has so much energy. Good lord. How will I restrain myself from commenting on this? Good friends of mine are inquiring about this product directly on her posts! I think I have to start PMing my friends.

Goldielocks

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1067 on: February 20, 2019, 02:43:34 PM »
mm1970   Can you post a link or ingredient list that EnglishteacherAlex can use to build a FB post reply directly on the friend's page?   

Ugh.   So many diet aids in the US are banned in Canada, due to different labelling laws, and it is for a good reason.  Remember the diet teas in the 80's and 90's that caused so many people to pass out and end up at the hospital?

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1068 on: February 20, 2019, 02:46:53 PM »
OMG!  I just looked up elevacity...  it states, multiple times, that the company's / product's mission is to "elevate your health, wealth and happiness".  BAM.  Right in their mission / opening sales pitch they are outright saying that the product is a business structure, not a diet aid.

I did not realize MLM's were so bold about it not being about the product. 

ETA:

Ingredients list reveal this to be  a mix of Highly concentrated Caffiene, MSG, Speed, and a couple other minor ingredients for anti-microbial, anti-oxidant, memory and fat burning (questionable).

Ingredients: [paraphrased]

[CAFFIENE], [CAFFIENE], [CAFFIENE], Canola Lecithin (food additive to emulsify / blend ingredients), [CAFFIENE], L-Theanine (acts like a glutamate such as MSG on your systems), PEA (Beta Phenylethylamine HCL) [see below], [CAFFIENE], Kigelia Africana Extract [anti-microbial?], A-GPC (Alpha-Glyceryl Phosphoryl Choline)[memory supplement], [Highly concentrated CAFFIENE powder], Juglans Regia Extract [a natural source of Octodrine from walnut bark, chemically similar to ephedrine and DMAA which are controlled in most countries. it is a psychoactive central nervous system stimulant ], Chromium Polynicotinate.Xanthohumol extract [insulin active, reasonably safe], Tumeric Root Extract, (95% Curcuminoids), [CAFFIENE] 3’3’Diindolmethane [may act like estrogen], Phosphatidyl Choline [possibly safe, maybe breaks down fat, mixed scientific results]


From WebMB..  I only checked the first two additive ingredients that I did not recognize, and got this..

Phenethylamine is POSSIBLY UNSAFE for most people when taken by mouth appropriately. Phenethylamine works similar to the drug amphetamine, and may cause similar side effects. Also, it might cause rapid heart rate, anxiety, or agitation.

Special Precautions & Warnings:
Bipolar disorder: Use of phenethylamine might cause people with bipolar disorder to convert from depression to mania.

Schizophrenia: Use of phenethylamine might worsen symptoms of schizophrenia, including hallucinations or delusions.

Surgery: Phenethylamine might affect the central nervous system. This could interfere with surgery. Stop taking phenethylamine at least 2 weeks before a scheduled surgery.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 03:33:22 PM by Goldielocks »

Travis

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1069 on: February 20, 2019, 07:37:18 PM »
mm1970   Can you post a link or ingredient list that EnglishteacherAlex can use to build a FB post reply directly on the friend's page?   

Ugh.   So many diet aids in the US are banned in Canada, due to different labelling laws, and it is for a good reason.  Remember the diet teas in the 80's and 90's that caused so many people to pass out and end up at the hospital?

Don't recall any special teas, but my mother bought a huge bottle of pills that were supposed to enlarge and take up space in the stomach.  Thankfully that gimmick didn't last long when it was revealed people were being suffocated when the pills activated too soon.

englishteacheralex

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1070 on: February 20, 2019, 10:58:44 PM »
Geez Goldilocks. Just...I'm speechless.

Do I talk to this woman directly? We're acquaintances; I wouldn't say we're friends. Definitely going to talk to my friends who have been expressing interest...

Goldielocks

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1071 on: February 20, 2019, 11:26:48 PM »
Geez Goldilocks. Just...I'm speechless.

Do I talk to this woman directly? We're acquaintances; I wouldn't say we're friends. Definitely going to talk to my friends who have been expressing interest...
I think I would indeed let her know (one on one) about the aphetamine in it, if she is currently consuming it.   I wouldn't want my worst enemy drinking that without knowing.

Alfred J Quack

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1072 on: February 21, 2019, 03:56:33 AM »
Phenethylamine is POSSIBLY UNSAFE for most people when taken by mouth appropriately. Phenethylamine works similar to the drug amphetamine, and may cause similar side effects. Also, it might cause rapid heart rate, anxiety, or agitation.

...

Schizophrenia: Use of phenethylamine might worsen symptoms of schizophrenia, including hallucinations or delusions.

I don't see what the problem is about Schizophrenia but the voices tell me it's not natural...

Peachtea

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1073 on: February 21, 2019, 06:40:38 AM »
Also: it's basically speed.  It took some sleuthing.  Because "I'll PM you" and all that.  But with looking at pictures long enough, and enlarging, and googling, I was able to find the name of the company and product.  Google the ingredients.  Yes, it's awesome for weight loss when diet and exercise didn't work, because it's speed.  It's an appetite suppressant.  You aren't eating ice cream before bed.  Who knew!

This reminded me of an overheard at work story, at a spice and tea shop.

Owner to Customer: Can I help you find something.
Customer: Yes, I’m looking for the kind of tea that makes you loose weight.
Owner: Uhhh, I’ve never heard of a tea used for that, there can be some other health benefits...
Customer: My friend started drinking this tea and she’s lost a bunch of weight, but I don’t remember what kind.
Owner: How about I list some common ones and you can tell me if it sounds familiar. (Begins listing)
Customer (impatiently): No I don’t remember the name, but she said she drinks this tea every night instead of ice cream, and now she’s lost like 10lbs in a month!
Long pause
Owner: Well, have you considered that maybe she lost weight because she stopped eating ice cream every night?
Customer: Oh! (Shocked pause) I bet you’re right. Huh. Why didn’t she just say that!
Owner: On the bright side, now you can get whatever kind of tea you like, what’s flavors do you like?

AMandM

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1074 on: February 21, 2019, 08:52:43 AM »
Great story, and very appropriate to your username, Peachtea!  Thank you!

I'm a red panda

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1075 on: February 21, 2019, 09:05:36 AM »
Phenethylamine is POSSIBLY UNSAFE for most people when taken by mouth appropriately. Phenethylamine works similar to the drug amphetamine, and may cause similar side effects. Also, it might cause rapid heart rate, anxiety, or agitation.

...

Schizophrenia: Use of phenethylamine might worsen symptoms of schizophrenia, including hallucinations or delusions.

I don't see what the problem is about Schizophrenia but the voices tell me it's not natural...

Not an MLM, but...

My aunt has long lasting heart problems from phen-phen.  She says she'd totally be willing to knowingly shorten her life and make the problems more severe if she could take it again. She'd rather be skinny

Beard N Bones

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1076 on: February 21, 2019, 09:59:41 AM »
Geez Goldilocks. Just...I'm speechless.

Do I talk to this woman directly? We're acquaintances; I wouldn't say we're friends. Definitely going to talk to my friends who have been expressing interest...

@englishteacheralex  I think educating people regarding how malicious MLMs are is important.  However, to try to educate someone who sells MLM products is a losing battle.  The way these companies work is cultish.  Sellers are told to ignore negativity, and are pushed the MLM ideology.  I wish numbers and logic would be enough to educate, but it usually isn't.

If you were to communicate what @Goldilocks did so well in researching, I guarantee that it wouldn't be well received.  I'd love to be proved wrong in this!

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1077 on: February 21, 2019, 01:09:18 PM »
Also: it's basically speed.  It took some sleuthing.  Because "I'll PM you" and all that.  But with looking at pictures long enough, and enlarging, and googling, I was able to find the name of the company and product.  Google the ingredients.  Yes, it's awesome for weight loss when diet and exercise didn't work, because it's speed.  It's an appetite suppressant.  You aren't eating ice cream before bed.  Who knew!

This reminded me of an overheard at work story, at a spice and tea shop.

Owner to Customer: Can I help you find something.
Customer: Yes, I’m looking for the kind of tea that makes you loose weight.
Owner: Uhhh, I’ve never heard of a tea used for that, there can be some other health benefits...
Customer: My friend started drinking this tea and she’s lost a bunch of weight, but I don’t remember what kind.
Owner: How about I list some common ones and you can tell me if it sounds familiar. (Begins listing)
Customer (impatiently): No I don’t remember the name, but she said she drinks this tea every night instead of ice cream, and now she’s lost like 10lbs in a month!
Long pause
Owner: Well, have you considered that maybe she lost weight because she stopped eating ice cream every night?
Customer: Oh! (Shocked pause) I bet you’re right. Huh. Why didn’t she just say that!
Owner: On the bright side, now you can get whatever kind of tea you like, what’s flavors do you like?

Pretty much my reaction any time someone mentions a drink, pill, or diet with a proper name that claims to be the cure-all for disease or being overweight.

"You know what you're describing sounds an awful lot like simply not eating."

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1078 on: February 21, 2019, 02:51:22 PM »
mm1970   Can you post a link or ingredient list that EnglishteacherAlex can use to build a FB post reply directly on the friend's page?   

Ugh.   So many diet aids in the US are banned in Canada, due to different labelling laws, and it is for a good reason.  Remember the diet teas in the 80's and 90's that caused so many people to pass out and end up at the hospital?
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the person I know is hawking Revital U.  (You know, just by stalking the photos and and googling.)  Found this on Reddit (just based on some photos on FB).

https://www.reddit.com/r/antiMLM/comments/75ka2s/revital_u_brew_who_are_they_and_wtf_are_they/

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1079 on: February 21, 2019, 06:10:31 PM »
I just talked to a friend who goes to my church about whether or not to say anything to "Smart Coffee" lady.

He said I should ask her if I can get a dime bag of the coffee from her for the weekend because I have so many papers to grade and I just need something to get me through them.

Ha!

Except she might take me seriously...

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1080 on: February 21, 2019, 10:41:01 PM »
Geez Goldilocks. Just...I'm speechless.

Do I talk to this woman directly? We're acquaintances; I wouldn't say we're friends. Definitely going to talk to my friends who have been expressing interest...

@englishteacheralex  I think educating people regarding how malicious MLMs are is important.  However, to try to educate someone who sells MLM products is a losing battle.  The way these companies work is cultish.  Sellers are told to ignore negativity, and are pushed the MLM ideology.  I wish numbers and logic would be enough to educate, but it usually isn't.

If you were to communicate what @Goldilocks did so well in researching, I guarantee that it wouldn't be well received.  I'd love to be proved wrong in this!
True! (about not being received well), but how could you go on letting someone risk themselves without giving a fair warning?

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1081 on: February 22, 2019, 07:53:09 AM »
Great story, and very appropriate to your username, Peachtea!  Thank you!

Thanks! The story and username are funny coincidences as it’s actually my MILs overheard at work story (but was so good it really stuck with me) and I picked my username based on what was sitting in front of me at the time (real creative, I know).

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1082 on: February 22, 2019, 09:08:35 AM »
OMG!  I just looked up elevacity...  it states, multiple times, that the company's / product's mission is to "elevate your health, wealth and happiness".  BAM.  Right in their mission / opening sales pitch they are outright saying that the product is a business structure, not a diet aid.

I did not realize MLM's were so bold about it not being about the product. 

ETA:

Ingredients list reveal this to be  a mix of Highly concentrated Caffiene, MSG, Speed, and a couple other minor ingredients for anti-microbial, anti-oxidant, memory and fat burning (questionable).

Ingredients: [paraphrased]

[CAFFIENE], [CAFFIENE], [CAFFIENE], Canola Lecithin (food additive to emulsify / blend ingredients), [CAFFIENE], L-Theanine (acts like a glutamate such as MSG on your systems), PEA (Beta Phenylethylamine HCL) [see below], [CAFFIENE], Kigelia Africana Extract [anti-microbial?], A-GPC (Alpha-Glyceryl Phosphoryl Choline)[memory supplement], [Highly concentrated CAFFIENE powder], Juglans Regia Extract [a natural source of Octodrine from walnut bark, chemically similar to ephedrine and DMAA which are controlled in most countries. it is a psychoactive central nervous system stimulant ], Chromium Polynicotinate.Xanthohumol extract [insulin active, reasonably safe], Tumeric Root Extract, (95% Curcuminoids), [CAFFIENE] 3’3’Diindolmethane [may act like estrogen], Phosphatidyl Choline [possibly safe, maybe breaks down fat, mixed scientific results]


From WebMB..  I only checked the first two additive ingredients that I did not recognize, and got this..

Phenethylamine is POSSIBLY UNSAFE for most people when taken by mouth appropriately. Phenethylamine works similar to the drug amphetamine, and may cause similar side effects. Also, it might cause rapid heart rate, anxiety, or agitation.

Special Precautions & Warnings:
Bipolar disorder: Use of phenethylamine might cause people with bipolar disorder to convert from depression to mania.

Schizophrenia: Use of phenethylamine might worsen symptoms of schizophrenia, including hallucinations or delusions.

Surgery: Phenethylamine might affect the central nervous system. This could interfere with surgery. Stop taking phenethylamine at least 2 weeks before a scheduled surgery.

ETA: I was mistaken as to which drug we were talking about and was corrected further down-thread. Fenethylline and Phenethylline are different compounds within the same drug family, and I thought of the wrong one.

I find this post crazy to see, as I'm a forensic toxicologist who recently did a research project regarding Fenethylline (I'm not sure why America and Europe can't agree on ph vs f, we have the same deal with amphetamine vs amfetamine, but I digress...).

Somethings to note:
1. I've only seen this come up in recent times in a few news articles claiming that Syrian soldiers were taking fenethylline for its stimulatory properties. Fenethylline being used as a diet aid is a relatively interesting idea, but amphetamines and related compounds were used in the past for the same purpose.
2. The reason why fenethylline "works similar to" amphetamine is its actually a prodrug for amphetamine. Meaning when you take fenethylline, your body breaks it down to form amphetamine. One research paper suggested that fenethylline might have its own activity at receptor sites, but this has not been proven with recent models (and I found their evidence pretty meh).
3. The structure of fenethylline is essentially amphetamine and theophylline (which is very structurally similar to caffeine) connected by a two-carbon chain. Metabolites from our study included amphetamine (and further metabolites from that) and theophylline derivatives (and further metabolites, etc)
4. The AMOUNT of what you take is generally what makes an item harmful. I doubt that this diet pill has any fenethylline at all (via a different research paper I had to read, regarding how all of the fenethylline pills they tested actually didn't have fenethylline at all... but this was random street seizures in the middle east and not a "reputable" (?) MLM diet pill) and even if it did, I'd doubt that it would have enough fenethylline to cause an effect beyond what you could do to yourself via having some Ritalin and a cup of coffee.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 11:12:38 AM by penguintroopers »

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1083 on: February 22, 2019, 09:38:40 AM »
OMG!  I just looked up elevacity...  it states, multiple times, that the company's / product's mission is to "elevate your health, wealth and happiness".  BAM.  Right in their mission / opening sales pitch they are outright saying that the product is a business structure, not a diet aid.

I did not realize MLM's were so bold about it not being about the product. 

ETA:

Ingredients list reveal this to be  a mix of Highly concentrated Caffiene, MSG, Speed, and a couple other minor ingredients for anti-microbial, anti-oxidant, memory and fat burning (questionable).

Ingredients: [paraphrased]

[CAFFIENE], [CAFFIENE], [CAFFIENE], Canola Lecithin (food additive to emulsify / blend ingredients), [CAFFIENE], L-Theanine (acts like a glutamate such as MSG on your systems), PEA (Beta Phenylethylamine HCL) [see below], [CAFFIENE], Kigelia Africana Extract [anti-microbial?], A-GPC (Alpha-Glyceryl Phosphoryl Choline)[memory supplement], [Highly concentrated CAFFIENE powder], Juglans Regia Extract [a natural source of Octodrine from walnut bark, chemically similar to ephedrine and DMAA which are controlled in most countries. it is a psychoactive central nervous system stimulant ], Chromium Polynicotinate.Xanthohumol extract [insulin active, reasonably safe], Tumeric Root Extract, (95% Curcuminoids), [CAFFIENE] 3’3’Diindolmethane [may act like estrogen], Phosphatidyl Choline [possibly safe, maybe breaks down fat, mixed scientific results]


From WebMB..  I only checked the first two additive ingredients that I did not recognize, and got this..

Phenethylamine is POSSIBLY UNSAFE for most people when taken by mouth appropriately. Phenethylamine works similar to the drug amphetamine, and may cause similar side effects. Also, it might cause rapid heart rate, anxiety, or agitation.

Special Precautions & Warnings:
Bipolar disorder: Use of phenethylamine might cause people with bipolar disorder to convert from depression to mania.

Schizophrenia: Use of phenethylamine might worsen symptoms of schizophrenia, including hallucinations or delusions.

Surgery: Phenethylamine might affect the central nervous system. This could interfere with surgery. Stop taking phenethylamine at least 2 weeks before a scheduled surgery.

I find this post crazy to see, as I'm a forensic toxicologist who recently did a research project regarding Fenethylline (I'm not sure why America and Europe can't agree on ph vs f, we have the same deal with amphetamine vs amfetamine, but I digress...).

Somethings to note:
1. I've only seen this come up in recent times in a few news articles claiming that Syrian soldiers were taking fenethylline for its stimulatory properties. Fenethylline being used as a diet aid is a relatively interesting idea, but amphetamines and related compounds were used in the past for the same purpose.
2. The reason why fenethylline "works similar to" amphetamine is its actually a prodrug for amphetamine. Meaning when you take fenethylline, your body breaks it down to form amphetamine. One research paper suggested that fenethylline might have its own activity at receptor sites, but this has not been proven with recent models (and I found their evidence pretty meh).
3. The structure of fenethylline is essentially amphetamine and theophylline (which is very structurally similar to caffeine) connected by a two-carbon chain. Metabolites from our study included amphetamine (and further metabolites from that) and theophylline derivatives (and further metabolites, etc)
4. The AMOUNT of what you take is generally what makes an item harmful. I doubt that this diet pill has any fenethylline at all (via a different research paper I had to read, regarding how all of the fenethylline pills they tested actually didn't have fenethylline at all... but this was random street seizures in the middle east and not a "reputable" (?) MLM diet pill) and even if it did, I'd doubt that it would have enough fenethylline to cause an effect beyond what you could do to yourself via having some Ritalin and a cup of coffee.

That sounds relatively harmless for a healthy person who uses the MLM product in accordance with the instructions.

How many MLM members are healthy, and how many are likely to abuse the product? I think the Venn diagram showing those intersecting circles would represent the set of people at risk.

penguintroopers

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1084 on: February 22, 2019, 10:38:20 AM »
OMG!  I just looked up elevacity...  it states, multiple times, that the company's / product's mission is to "elevate your health, wealth and happiness".  BAM.  Right in their mission / opening sales pitch they are outright saying that the product is a business structure, not a diet aid.

I did not realize MLM's were so bold about it not being about the product. 

ETA:

Ingredients list reveal this to be  a mix of Highly concentrated Caffiene, MSG, Speed, and a couple other minor ingredients for anti-microbial, anti-oxidant, memory and fat burning (questionable).

Ingredients: [paraphrased]

[CAFFIENE], [CAFFIENE], [CAFFIENE], Canola Lecithin (food additive to emulsify / blend ingredients), [CAFFIENE], L-Theanine (acts like a glutamate such as MSG on your systems), PEA (Beta Phenylethylamine HCL) [see below], [CAFFIENE], Kigelia Africana Extract [anti-microbial?], A-GPC (Alpha-Glyceryl Phosphoryl Choline)[memory supplement], [Highly concentrated CAFFIENE powder], Juglans Regia Extract [a natural source of Octodrine from walnut bark, chemically similar to ephedrine and DMAA which are controlled in most countries. it is a psychoactive central nervous system stimulant ], Chromium Polynicotinate.Xanthohumol extract [insulin active, reasonably safe], Tumeric Root Extract, (95% Curcuminoids), [CAFFIENE] 3’3’Diindolmethane [may act like estrogen], Phosphatidyl Choline [possibly safe, maybe breaks down fat, mixed scientific results]


From WebMB..  I only checked the first two additive ingredients that I did not recognize, and got this..

Phenethylamine is POSSIBLY UNSAFE for most people when taken by mouth appropriately. Phenethylamine works similar to the drug amphetamine, and may cause similar side effects. Also, it might cause rapid heart rate, anxiety, or agitation.

Special Precautions & Warnings:
Bipolar disorder: Use of phenethylamine might cause people with bipolar disorder to convert from depression to mania.

Schizophrenia: Use of phenethylamine might worsen symptoms of schizophrenia, including hallucinations or delusions.

Surgery: Phenethylamine might affect the central nervous system. This could interfere with surgery. Stop taking phenethylamine at least 2 weeks before a scheduled surgery.

I find this post crazy to see, as I'm a forensic toxicologist who recently did a research project regarding Fenethylline (I'm not sure why America and Europe can't agree on ph vs f, we have the same deal with amphetamine vs amfetamine, but I digress...).

Somethings to note:
1. I've only seen this come up in recent times in a few news articles claiming that Syrian soldiers were taking fenethylline for its stimulatory properties. Fenethylline being used as a diet aid is a relatively interesting idea, but amphetamines and related compounds were used in the past for the same purpose.
2. The reason why fenethylline "works similar to" amphetamine is its actually a prodrug for amphetamine. Meaning when you take fenethylline, your body breaks it down to form amphetamine. One research paper suggested that fenethylline might have its own activity at receptor sites, but this has not been proven with recent models (and I found their evidence pretty meh).
3. The structure of fenethylline is essentially amphetamine and theophylline (which is very structurally similar to caffeine) connected by a two-carbon chain. Metabolites from our study included amphetamine (and further metabolites from that) and theophylline derivatives (and further metabolites, etc)
4. The AMOUNT of what you take is generally what makes an item harmful. I doubt that this diet pill has any fenethylline at all (via a different research paper I had to read, regarding how all of the fenethylline pills they tested actually didn't have fenethylline at all... but this was random street seizures in the middle east and not a "reputable" (?) MLM diet pill) and even if it did, I'd doubt that it would have enough fenethylline to cause an effect beyond what you could do to yourself via having some Ritalin and a cup of coffee.

That sounds relatively harmless for a healthy person who uses the MLM product in accordance with the instructions.

How many MLM members are healthy, and how many are likely to abuse the product? I think the Venn diagram showing those intersecting circles would represent the set of people at risk.

Very true. I just get tired with people who take a "oh my gosh,  I can't pronounce the name of this drug, therefore I'm going to die if it just touches me" fear mongering. But on the other hand, this does not mean throw all caution to the wind and take/eat/drink ridiculous amounts beyond whats recommended. Like pretty much everything in life, (and you hit the nail on the head Grim) moderation is key, and there are subsets of people in every population where a drug can have a greater effect on one individual vs another, or they could be more predisposed to abuse than someone else for various environmental/natural preconditions.

englishteacheralex

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1085 on: February 22, 2019, 10:44:03 AM »
Yeah, I did my own googling and to me it seemed like one of those products that I would never take but which is maybe not that big a deal? It's not Fen-Phen; googling revealed that that's a different thing.

So I emailed the ingredients info to my friend who was posting on the acquaintance's thread, and the friend said she was just curious because the acquaintance seemed to be exhibiting some of the same behaviors as the friend's meth-addicted clients (my friend is a social worker) and she was wondering what the heck was up.

Anyway...I'm pretty sure I'm not going to intentionally do anything else about this, but it's the freakiest MLM product I've come across.


penguintroopers

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1086 on: February 22, 2019, 11:08:19 AM »
Yeah, I did my own googling and to me it seemed like one of those products that I would never take but which is maybe not that big a deal? It's not Fen-Phen; googling revealed that that's a different thing.

Yep, apologizes, I stand corrected on which drug we're specifically talking about, but we're still in the same drug family with similar effects.

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1087 on: February 23, 2019, 01:10:15 AM »
Yeah, I did my own googling and to me it seemed like one of those products that I would never take but which is maybe not that big a deal? It's not Fen-Phen; googling revealed that that's a different thing.

So I emailed the ingredients info to my friend who was posting on the acquaintance's thread, and the friend said she was just curious because the acquaintance seemed to be exhibiting some of the same behaviors as the friend's meth-addicted clients (my friend is a social worker) and she was wondering what the heck was up.

Anyway...I'm pretty sure I'm not going to intentionally do anything else about this, but it's the freakiest MLM product I've come across.

LOL  (really, I made my DD look up from her phone) ---   You know, the "training" on how to effectively recruit for your MLM team would look a bit similar to the meth addicted clients' behaviours, but when you supercharge it with massive does of caffiene and a bit of amphetamine pro-drugs....   I can only imagine what your friend's FB and inbox look to be on the receiving end of this MLM marketing push.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1088 on: March 04, 2019, 09:53:51 AM »
Went to the local home show yesterday, saw the booth with skinny coffee only told my mom it was a MLM instead of the people at the booth.

JAYSLOL

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1089 on: March 06, 2019, 01:13:48 PM »
Saw someone selling these on a Facebook group.  Perfect for any pyramid-type essential oil sales gig. 


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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1090 on: March 06, 2019, 01:40:48 PM »
An actual pyramid for storing your MLM quack oil?! That's too perfect.

Just Joe

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1091 on: March 07, 2019, 07:56:49 AM »
And even the rack lacks efficiency. Look at all that wasted space along the edges!

JAYSLOL

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1092 on: March 07, 2019, 12:08:54 PM »
And even the rack lacks efficiency. Look at all that wasted space along the edges!

Not at all, it's actually the most efficient shape for upstream flow.  Unleash the power of the pyramid!


I'm a red panda

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1093 on: March 17, 2019, 07:34:26 PM »
You know what makes amazing "zero waste" tissues (aka hankerchiefs, but I keep boxes of them around the house and only use each one once, then wash)

LLR leggings. They are buttery soft...

I got a huge bag of God awful patterns on buy nothing, so I filled up a few more tissue boxes for rooms that don't have them.

They are all a but worn, so hoping they don't pill too badly in the wash.

Dicey

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1094 on: March 18, 2019, 12:13:54 AM »
I went to a Stella & Dot Party. I bought something. I'm donating it to a fund raising event. Will my life ever be the same?

chaskavitch

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1095 on: March 18, 2019, 06:41:39 AM »
You know what makes amazing "zero waste" tissues (aka hankerchiefs, but I keep boxes of them around the house and only use each one once, then wash)

LLR leggings. They are buttery soft...

I got a huge bag of God awful patterns on buy nothing, so I filled up a few more tissue boxes for rooms that don't have them.

They are all a but worn, so hoping they don't pill too badly in the wash.

Oooh, that's a great idea!  I bet they'd be good for baby things, too.  My sister has a bunch of soft leggings (LLR or not) that she keeps wearing through the thighs on (she's a bodybuilder and her legs are INSANE) - maybe I'll ask her for them.

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1096 on: March 18, 2019, 08:19:40 AM »
You know what makes amazing "zero waste" tissues (aka hankerchiefs, but I keep boxes of them around the house and only use each one once, then wash)

LLR leggings. They are buttery soft...

I got a huge bag of God awful patterns on buy nothing, so I filled up a few more tissue boxes for rooms that don't have them.

They are all a but worn, so hoping they don't pill too badly in the wash.

Oooh, that's a great idea!  I bet they'd be good for baby things, too.  My sister has a bunch of soft leggings (LLR or not) that she keeps wearing through the thighs on (she's a bodybuilder and her legs are INSANE) - maybe I'll ask her for them.

Baby tissues was why I went to reusable tissues. Even the softest store bought one cause a runny nose to get red and roughed up.  Now I prefer them too.  DH, who is less of a tree hugger, thinks they are gross- but oddly, has a hankerchief he carries in the winter. LOL

chaskavitch

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1097 on: March 18, 2019, 08:22:27 AM »
You know what makes amazing "zero waste" tissues (aka hankerchiefs, but I keep boxes of them around the house and only use each one once, then wash)

LLR leggings. They are buttery soft...

I got a huge bag of God awful patterns on buy nothing, so I filled up a few more tissue boxes for rooms that don't have them.

They are all a but worn, so hoping they don't pill too badly in the wash.

Oooh, that's a great idea!  I bet they'd be good for baby things, too.  My sister has a bunch of soft leggings (LLR or not) that she keeps wearing through the thighs on (she's a bodybuilder and her legs are INSANE) - maybe I'll ask her for them.

Baby tissues was why I went to reusable tissues. Even the softest store bought one cause a runny nose to get red and roughed up.  Now I prefer them too.  DH, who is less of a tree hugger, thinks they are gross- but oddly, has a hankerchief he carries in the winter. LOL

Haha, that's EXACTLY what happened to us.  We started using our reusable wipes as tissues as our toddler potty trained, and I use them too, but the leggings material would be much much softer.  DH also prefers regular Kleenex type tissues, but carries a handkerchief all the time "just for wiping", no blowing :)

LifeHappens

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1098 on: Today at 02:30:16 PM »
My favorite peddler of overpriced protein powder just posted her "money saving" weekly grocery plan. This includes:
meal kit delivery
$100 per week(!!!) on their shakes and other nutritional products
InstaCart grocery delivery

Total cost for a family of 3 is $250 per week(!!), but this "saves them money" because they're not tempted to get takeout or delivery.

I'm skeptical...

zolotiyeruki

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Re: No, I won't buy into your MLM
« Reply #1099 on: Today at 02:42:22 PM »
My favorite peddler of overpriced protein powder just posted her "money saving" weekly grocery plan. This includes:
meal kit delivery
$100 per week(!!!) on their shakes and other nutritional products
InstaCart grocery delivery

Total cost for a family of 3 is $250 per week(!!), but this "saves them money" because they're not tempted to get takeout or delivery.

I'm skeptical...
Wow.  We feed our family of eight very well on that amount.