Author Topic: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)  (Read 16006 times)

Cool Friend

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2018, 07:27:43 AM »
Honestly, I empathize with them.  There was a long, dark period of my life after The Great Recession when I had tons of student debt, could not afford to go back to school/training, could not afford to work for free at an unpaid internship (the only kind on offer), and no matter how many job applications I sent out, I could not find work.  It is profoundly demoralizing and hard to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it.  The message you end up internalizing is that your community and society do not want you, that you have no place whatsoever in it.  It's true, you can't blame the economy on everything, but it's foolish to ignore the very real effect external factors have in your ability to grow a livable future for yourself.  Their mindset is negative and self-destructive, but they didn't develop that mindset from nothing.  Don't take the claims in that thread of wanting to remain NEET for the rest of the lives at face value: when that's the only future you can see, you convince yourself that you might as well desire it.

I find the attitude that these are worthless people to be terribly cynical.  They're human beings.  Not everyone can figure a way out of a bad situation on their own.  A lot of these people are terrified at the predatory economic system that governs their lives and are too afraid to strike out on their own.

I could have easily been one of these people if 1) moving in with someone who would pay my rent and groceries was ever an option and 2) I didn't luck into a very rarefied job that took me out of unemployment hell.  Actually, considering how deeply depressing life was for me at that point, I was more likely to commit suicide than live on someone's couch and have them take care of me.  Is that supposed to be more admirable?

I'm not saying giving up is good. I'm saying I understand the depth of despair that makes giving up appealing.  I read some of those Reddit posts and could only think there but for the grace of God go I.

I was severely depressed in grad school and this isn't too far off. I ended up dropping out because I was gonna fail out. Lost my assistantship and therefore my income and was too depressed to look for anything. I basically lived at my boyfriend's and would talk about how we should get married and I would keep house and cook. It was definitely the depression talking. Luckily he pushed me to get help and I was able to get past all that and get back to my usual hustle. Part of it too was that I didn't really have anyone to support me. I had to go out and work and support myself.

I can understand the effects of depression and anxiety as being factors in NEETdom, and having twice graduated into a recession I definitely empathize with the victims of the last one who had to send out at least as many applications as I did before drawing an offer. That being said, I do not see the justification for the extreme contempt toward people in the working and professional classes in general ("wagecucks"? really?) or the hatred directed toward the specific individuals supporting them, who were frequently parents or similar enablers.

I wouldn't say that the extreme contempt is justified by any means, but it is a common defense mechanism as LennStar pointed out.  To be in that position and to feel utterly powerless, a person can build up a lot of resentment for the very people they rely on to live, and resentment for people who are able to work and sustain themselves without that support network. At heart, they don't want to have to live that way--every human being craves some agency, independence, and meaningful work.  In order to feel any semblance of self-esteem, you have to convince yourself that everyone who isn't living the way you are is an idiot or an asshole. It's not a healthy attitude and it doesn't serve them, unfortunately.  I wouldn't take their contempt for working, self-sufficient people personally; it's a potent bitterness that fuels it.

And yes, "wagecucks" is some cringe-worthy 4chan nonsense.

Timodeus

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2018, 08:02:10 AM »
Honestly, I empathize with them.  There was a long, dark period of my life after The Great Recession when I had tons of student debt, could not afford to go back to school/training, could not afford to work for free at an unpaid internship (the only kind on offer), and no matter how many job applications I sent out, I could not find work.  It is profoundly demoralizing and hard to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it.  The message you end up internalizing is that your community and society do not want you, that you have no place whatsoever in it.  It's true, you can't blame the economy on everything, but it's foolish to ignore the very real effect external factors have in your ability to grow a livable future for yourself.  Their mindset is negative and self-destructive, but they didn't develop that mindset from nothing.  Don't take the claims in that thread of wanting to remain NEET for the rest of the lives at face value: when that's the only future you can see, you convince yourself that you might as well desire it.

I find the attitude that these are worthless people to be terribly cynical.  They're human beings.  Not everyone can figure a way out of a bad situation on their own.  A lot of these people are terrified at the predatory economic system that governs their lives and are too afraid to strike out on their own.

I could have easily been one of these people if 1) moving in with someone who would pay my rent and groceries was ever an option and 2) I didn't luck into a very rarefied job that took me out of unemployment hell.  Actually, considering how deeply depressing life was for me at that point, I was more likely to commit suicide than live on someone's couch and have them take care of me.  Is that supposed to be more admirable?

I'm not saying giving up is good. I'm saying I understand the depth of despair that makes giving up appealing.  I read some of those Reddit posts and could only think there but for the grace of God go I.

This was a great post and reflects many of my feelings as well. I recall graduating college during the recession with no plan for a job, deep in debt, and a degree worth little to nothing. After being a mooch for a year I had an awakening after getting kicked out of a relative's house. I had two options at that time, go down the pit of despair or become stoic and start making prudent decisions for a change. I chose the latter. My reasons for mooching are similar to these NEETs, through a combination of poor financial decisions (college degree) and general economic conditions, I found it hard to accept taking jobs with little to no growth potential just to pay rent every month. While I think some of my success was luck, I found that if you work consistently, come in on time, don't fight with coworkers, and present a humble attitude you have an edge over many people. There are real systemic issues that prevent some people from getting ahead in life for sure, so I feel fortunate to have made it and am well on my way to financial independence. You said it best-There But For The Grace of God Go I.

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2018, 12:30:15 PM »
I wouldn't say that the extreme contempt is justified by any means, but it is a common defense mechanism as LennStar pointed out.

It's the justification I'm trying to find. I'm fully aware that entitlement-minded mooches find reasons to continue doing what they're doing; that's actually a response to cognitive dissonance. Another thing I notice is that they often genuinely believe that they're "contributing" just by being present. They also really, truly, honestly believe there's such a thing as a "soul" that will be crushed if they expose themselves to a difficult or unpleasant experience. They believe that difficulties and challenges permanently damage them.

talltexan

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2018, 06:36:30 AM »
I had heard the term before, but only in anime, and basically never thought that the term was used in real life. When I saw the post title, I suddenly occurred to me that many people on welfare are NEETs. They meet the technical qualification, althought I wouldn't count someone on a welfare disability pension as a NEET. Many countries don't have a strong welfare system, so adult freeloaders live off their family instead.


Kimera-
Like you I am horrified by NEET people and NEET culture, but this part of your post is based on some misconceptions about modern welfare that have not been true for more than twenty years, basically after the Clinton-Gingrich reforms of the 1990's. In order to qualify for one of the two largest programs--SNAP or TANF--you have got to have children or else a job. The EITC is also only really useful to people who perform low-paying work and receive income for it. 



partgypsy

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2018, 12:06:30 PM »
The people I know who can be described like that (my older brother, and some of the time my sister) are not and have never been on welfare. While they are perfectly ok having parents provide for them (they are adults), they are personally derisive of people on welfare or receiving any gov support, which completely mystifies me.

Hunny156

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2018, 12:25:49 PM »
Wow, this thread hit home for me.  I can't go into too much detail due to pending litigation, but I am seeing the results of this behavior, magnified, when the parental units shrug their shoulders in frustration but refuse to cut the enabling behavior.  Add in some un-diagnosed mental health issues and possibly narcissism, and the results are disastrous.  This person was once a (mostly) functioning member of society, they have a degree and were able to maintain a job with a solid rate of pay.  Unwilling to leave the nest and unable to maintain a relationship with others, but at least there was enough income to provide for themselves, so long as they could develop some frugal habits when they finally ventured out into the real world.  Not perfect, but with some mentoring, there was absolutely an opportunity to become a fully functional member of society.

I'm too angry to be neutral these days, but from where I stand, this was a willful plan to take advantage of someone who lacked the faculties to protect themselves, and the levels of depravity, the lack of morals or ethics, are utterly astonishing.

This failure to launch character finds themselves with six figure unsecured debt, an extensive record of shoddy work history (near poverty level, but living the high life by abusing resources that are now nearly gone), and is willing to do anything to lash their way out of the corner they have painted themselves into.  Unable or unwilling to defend themselves from damning evidence in court, they resorted to another form of legal action that will haunt them for years to come, further impeding their ability to become a functional member of society, with barely a couple of decades left before traditional retirement age.  This person has strong hatred for the enabler and for the one trying to clean up the mess (me), so the solution was to hide from one, and dump the other, helpless person into the care of the state. 

My life has been turned upside down this year, trying to rectify the problems created, while watching guerilla warfare tactics from the other side, determined to make things worse for all involved.  I'm grateful that my mustachian ways are allowing me to devote some resources to solving this problem, and I'm trying to maintain some sanity and perspective.  I'm hopeful that the proper channels will eventually come into play and do right by the ultimate victim, but my recent education into the legal process has been disheartening at best.

The actual details of the story are so shocking, many people close to me have suggested I pen a book about it all once the story is resolved.  I probably won't, living through it the first time is hard enough, and my goal of FIRE is more important to me, so I hope to move forward and put this mess behind me at some point.  I also realize my story is not unique, and it's been eye opening to see why this behavior continues without repercussion in so many families.  Most people simply do not have the resources to fight a long, ugly, expensive uphill battle.  It's all so very sad.

maizeman

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2018, 12:31:13 PM »
So sorry to hear that Hunny156. Reading between the lines a little I can start to form a guess about a few of the particulars of the experience you are going through, and if I'm completely wrong it only means it is even worse than the situation I am imagining.

Take care of yourself, and those close to you.

stoaX

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2018, 03:00:44 PM »
Wow, this thread hit home for me.  I can't go into too much detail due to pending litigation, but I am seeing the results of this behavior, magnified, when the parental units shrug their shoulders in frustration but refuse to cut the enabling behavior.  Add in some un-diagnosed mental health issues and possibly narcissism, and the results are disastrous.  This person was once a (mostly) functioning member of society, they have a degree and were able to maintain a job with a solid rate of pay.  Unwilling to leave the nest and unable to maintain a relationship with others, but at least there was enough income to provide for themselves, so long as they could develop some frugal habits when they finally ventured out into the real world.  Not perfect, but with some mentoring, there was absolutely an opportunity to become a fully functional member of society.

I'm too angry to be neutral these days, but from where I stand, this was a willful plan to take advantage of someone who lacked the faculties to protect themselves, and the levels of depravity, the lack of morals or ethics, are utterly astonishing.

This failure to launch character finds themselves with six figure unsecured debt, an extensive record of shoddy work history (near poverty level, but living the high life by abusing resources that are now nearly gone), and is willing to do anything to lash their way out of the corner they have painted themselves into.  Unable or unwilling to defend themselves from damning evidence in court, they resorted to another form of legal action that will haunt them for years to come, further impeding their ability to become a functional member of society, with barely a couple of decades left before traditional retirement age.  This person has strong hatred for the enabler and for the one trying to clean up the mess (me), so the solution was to hide from one, and dump the other, helpless person into the care of the state. 

My life has been turned upside down this year, trying to rectify the problems created, while watching guerilla warfare tactics from the other side, determined to make things worse for all involved.  I'm grateful that my mustachian ways are allowing me to devote some resources to solving this problem, and I'm trying to maintain some sanity and perspective.  I'm hopeful that the proper channels will eventually come into play and do right by the ultimate victim, but my recent education into the legal process has been disheartening at best.

The actual details of the story are so shocking, many people close to me have suggested I pen a book about it all once the story is resolved.  I probably won't, living through it the first time is hard enough, and my goal of FIRE is more important to me, so I hope to move forward and put this mess behind me at some point.  I also realize my story is not unique, and it's been eye opening to see why this behavior continues without repercussion in so many families.  Most people simply do not have the resources to fight a long, ugly, expensive uphill battle.  It's all so very sad.

Wishing you well with your struggle.  And yes, my experience with the legal system (cops, courts, child welfare people, housing authority people) was, at best, underwhelming and sooooo slow....

Kimera757

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2018, 08:46:29 AM »
I had heard the term before, but only in anime, and basically never thought that the term was used in real life. When I saw the post title, I suddenly occurred to me that many people on welfare are NEETs. They meet the technical qualification, althought I wouldn't count someone on a welfare disability pension as a NEET. Many countries don't have a strong welfare system, so adult freeloaders live off their family instead.


Kimera-
Like you I am horrified by NEET people and NEET culture, but this part of your post is based on some misconceptions about modern welfare that have not been true for more than twenty years, basically after the Clinton-Gingrich reforms of the 1990's. In order to qualify for one of the two largest programs--SNAP or TANF--you have got to have children or else a job. The EITC is also only really useful to people who perform low-paying work and receive income for it.

I am a Canadian. Welfare works a bit differently here. (and for that matter, the five year limit only applies in some states. The law simply allows states to impose a five year limit.)

FireLane

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #59 on: August 16, 2018, 08:50:48 PM »
Oh boy. This describes my BIL to a T.

He's in his early 30s, never finished college, never had a job for more than a few weeks at a time. He's living with his dad, who for whatever reason is willing to feed and house him. He helps babysit our son occasionally, but spends most of his time watching TV and getting into arguments with strangers on the internet.

And yes, there's a lot of rationalization taking place: the economy is rigged, it's impossible for people like him to find a job so why try, he didn't graduate and can't find work because everyone hates him for no reason whatsoever (no, of course it has nothing to do with his work ethic or his attitude, why would you even ask?). The sense of entitlement and ingratitude for the people who support him is also very much present.

He's very intelligent, has some definite talents, can even be charming when he makes the effort. I have no doubt he could do something with his life if he tried. But the motivation, the desire to apply himself, just isn't there.

He says he's depressed, and maybe he is. But no one else can solve his problems for him if he's not willing to put in some effort himself, and I've never seen him make more than a cursory effort to turn his life around. His plan seems to be to make no attempt to fend for himself and trust that others will catch him. So far, it's worked. But I'm a little worried about the day when one or both of his parents decide they're no longer willing or are no longer able to support him, because I'm definitely not going to adopt a new child.

Dabnasty

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2018, 07:01:25 AM »
Oh boy. This describes my BIL to a T.

He's in his early 30s, never finished college, never had a job for more than a few weeks at a time. He's living with his dad, who for whatever reason is willing to feed and house him. He helps babysit our son occasionally, but spends most of his time watching TV and getting into arguments with strangers on the internet.

And yes, there's a lot of rationalization taking place: the economy is rigged, it's impossible for people like him to find a job so why try, he didn't graduate and can't find work because everyone hates him for no reason whatsoever (no, of course it has nothing to do with his work ethic or his attitude, why would you even ask?). The sense of entitlement and ingratitude for the people who support him is also very much present.

He's very intelligent, has some definite talents, can even be charming when he makes the effort. I have no doubt he could do something with his life if he tried. But the motivation, the desire to apply himself, just isn't there.

He says he's depressed, and maybe he is. But no one else can solve his problems for him if he's not willing to put in some effort himself, and I've never seen him make more than a cursory effort to turn his life around. His plan seems to be to make no attempt to fend for himself and trust that others will catch him. So far, it's worked. But I'm a little worried about the day when one or both of his parents decide they're no longer willing or are no longer able to support him, because I'm definitely not going to adopt a new child.

Maybe you should point him over here - https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/ :)

He can get into arguments and maybe, indirectly, he'll get curious about this mustachian stuff.

Mesmoiselle

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2018, 07:19:51 AM »
@TheGrimSqueaker

The way you talk about your adopted kid reminds me of my brother. He's getting treatment, finally, at 29. But if after a year of pills he doesn't stop yelling at me and asking for money every time I see him, I'm cutting him out if my life completely. I mourn how close we were as children before his brain messed up and thought our mother's life lessons were worth repeating. I only interact with two of my family members,  ut he's the last one I allow in my life to keep ruffling my feathers as I hope for a better medicated future. The fact I live out of state is the only reason the damage is as low as it is.

As related to this thread, he used up all the free college money, and is now barely working one day a week minimum wage. He has admitted to thinking he's too good for this job even though his only education was Theater Arts. On my birthday he informed me he should get the last slice of a small pizza I purchased for us to share because he wouldn't be get free food from my sister later. He intermittently rents rooms and sleeps on Christian friend's couches.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 07:38:03 AM by Mesmoiselle »

Just Joe

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2018, 08:53:29 AM »
Maybe this has already been addressed but what would these people do without someone to provide a roof over their heads? DW and I always worked b/c we had no alternatives. Neither of us wanted to be homeless so work it was/is. Plus failure to launch would be shameful to us.

On the topic of depression vs job. Are they depressed b/c their life is a mess or is their life a mess b/c they are depressed?

The first step could be as easy as going for a long walk. Get the blood moving and the endorphins going.

Sibley

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2018, 06:42:24 PM »
Maybe this has already been addressed but what would these people do without someone to provide a roof over their heads? DW and I always worked b/c we had no alternatives. Neither of us wanted to be homeless so work it was/is. Plus failure to launch would be shameful to us.

On the topic of depression vs job. Are they depressed b/c their life is a mess or is their life a mess b/c they are depressed?

The first step could be as easy as going for a long walk. Get the blood moving and the endorphins going.

At least some of them would get a job and support themselves if no one else would support them. Others would probably end up homeless. I'm sure, particularly given the oipoid epidemic, some of them would end up dead.

marty998

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2018, 07:06:29 PM »
Maybe this has already been addressed but what would these people do without someone to provide a roof over their heads? DW and I always worked b/c we had no alternatives. Neither of us wanted to be homeless so work it was/is. Plus failure to launch would be shameful to us.

On the topic of depression vs job. Are they depressed b/c their life is a mess or is their life a mess b/c they are depressed?

The first step could be as easy as going for a long walk. Get the blood moving and the endorphins going.

At least some of them would get a job and support themselves if no one else would support them. Others would probably end up homeless. I'm sure, particularly given the oipoid epidemic, some of them would end up dead.

Turning off Facebook and Instagram would be a good start. Then go for that walk/run. Nothing more depressing than seeing the perfect lives of others.

js82

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2018, 08:26:00 PM »
Oh boy. This describes my BIL to a T.

He's in his early 30s, never finished college, never had a job for more than a few weeks at a time. He's living with his dad, who for whatever reason is willing to feed and house him. He helps babysit our son occasionally, but spends most of his time watching TV and getting into arguments with strangers on the internet.

And yes, there's a lot of rationalization taking place: the economy is rigged, it's impossible for people like him to find a job so why try, he didn't graduate and can't find work because everyone hates him for no reason whatsoever (no, of course it has nothing to do with his work ethic or his attitude, why would you even ask?). The sense of entitlement and ingratitude for the people who support him is also very much present.

He's very intelligent, has some definite talents, can even be charming when he makes the effort. I have no doubt he could do something with his life if he tried. But the motivation, the desire to apply himself, just isn't there.

He says he's depressed, and maybe he is. But no one else can solve his problems for him if he's not willing to put in some effort himself, and I've never seen him make more than a cursory effort to turn his life around. His plan seems to be to make no attempt to fend for himself and trust that others will catch him. So far, it's worked. But I'm a little worried about the day when one or both of his parents decide they're no longer willing or are no longer able to support him, because I'm definitely not going to adopt a new child.

Depression is a truly awful beast.  I nearly flunked out of college(ended up taking a semester off to kinda-sorta-not really sort things out), graduated with a GPA I never mention because of how embarrassing it is, then took nearly a year to find a job after college, during which I did.... not much.  Eventually I did find a job, and positive momentum is a funny thing.  I'm a functional adult, a high performer at my job, and mostly normal, save a few scars from my past experiences.

People can and do recover from depression, but it usually requires the right kind of support from friends and/or family.  If your BIL truly is depressed, he needs support, and help from a qualified professional.  Of course as an adult, if he refuses help there's little you can do - but the reality is that his best chance involves getting help from a professional, which may require some nudging from those who care about him.

You and your family have my sympathies.  I've been there myself - and I know that I wasn't a lot of fun to deal with at the time.  Thankfully due to a combination of support and luck(in the form of a few opportunities that I managed to capitalize upon), I ended up finding my way to a better place.  It's not an easy road to follow, and it's an utterly terrifying one if you don't have the right kind of support at your side - but it's doable with the right support.

Mesmoiselle

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2018, 08:35:38 AM »
High functioning depressed is a thing. I remember bawling while cleaning a whole house in the 18-23 zone many a time, even during 40 hours of tech school with a 30+ hours of work. Made a 3.9 GPA.

But all people are different
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 06:05:58 PM by Mesmoiselle »

emduck

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2018, 01:09:12 PM »
High functioning depressed is a thing. I remember bawling while cleaning a whole house in the 18-23 zone many a time, even during 40 hours of tech school with a 30+ hours of full time school. Made a 3.9 GPA.

But all people are different

Yeah I spent most of grad school basically high-functioning extremely depressed.  And people would say things to me like, "You're the only person here who doesn't hate grad school yet," and I'd just sort of shrug and not disagree.  I feel like working too much, and taking on basically every extra responsibility I could find, let me not have to think about it.

Paul der Krake

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2018, 07:56:35 PM »
He's in his early 30s, never finished college, never had a job for more than a few weeks at a time. He's living with his dad, who for whatever reason is willing to feed and house him. He helps babysit our son occasionally, but spends most of his time watching TV and getting into arguments with strangers on the internet.
We have an entire forum section dedicated to people like that.

Villanelle

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Re: NEET. Not neat.
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2018, 08:15:34 PM »
It's been something of a big deal in Japan for a while now, where the term is officially hikikomori, with something like 700,000 individuals shutting themselves in for 6+ months according to their government. It's a big enough problem that these sorts of things are addressed in various media from novels to anime, from one of a character's relatives that's a shut in to the protagonist trying to overcome their situation. It's prevalent enough to have become something of a trope.

Hikikomori is specifically social withdrawal/isolation. While a lot of NEETs may be hikikomori they do not mean the same thing.

I've noticed the trend of NEETs in anime over the last decade. It's so weird to me that this is often glorified with characters proud of being a NEET.

This is what going to say.  Some Hikikomori have work from home jobs, and others are somehow independent finacially, whereas the implication with NEETS is that they are freeloading sponges.  And of course there are plenty of NEETS who leave the house and interact with others. 

Mon€yp€nny

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #70 on: August 19, 2018, 05:53:10 PM »
@LennStar I have worked for an international companies and I knew staying at work until the first person dares to leave and the team drinks after work were a thing. I've seen the bar bills and suspected many people had alcohol related issues there considering the amounts they drank in 60 to 90 minutes.
How do these people have anything left after paying for transport, food during work, nice clothes and the drinking? (and for the men, uh, other expenses. Visiting ladies of pleasure with their co-workers or/ and boss. I don't know about Japan but in China it seems to be very normal too.)
Is there anything left to feed and dress a wife and/ or children.at home?
I have seen a documentary once where this half slave man finally got his dinner at 11:30 pm in a one room filthy flat furnished with some mattresses and a TV. Horrible.

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #71 on: August 19, 2018, 08:00:58 PM »
My sister is like this in a lot of ways, although she is always employed.

Mid 30s, lives with my parents, no college, barely graduated HS. Parents are raising her daughter while working full time. Sister works but pays no rent, no day care, has free state healthcare, food stamps, etc. She doesn't help much around the house, and generally does not enjoy being a parent at all. Always complaining how my niece is a huge burden and how her life is hard because of her. Any time I am around my sister is MIA, not sure when she spends time with my niece. She's been on and off of drugs most of her life, and spends most of her money on weed and cigarettes. She is always running up credit card debt and can never afford anything when it comes up such as car repairs. The father is MIA.

My parents completely enable all of this. They have always bailed her out financially, paid off debt, given her a place to live, and food to eat. Even when she was partying like crazy. They themselves have no savings, no emergency fund, and no retirementand are in their 60s.

 My father manages all of her finances. He takes all of her paychecks and gives her an alllowance to make sure her bills (car insurance, cell ohone, etc. Get paid). This was part of the deal to move back in (5 years ago) to get out of debt and back on her own feet. She is incapable of paying a bill. He tried to give her one bill to be responsible for and it was late before long. Last I knew he had taken it back over. She is supposed to be saving to move out, but every time I talk to her she says she "needs to do better at saving". She doesn't make much, maybe 30k a year, but literally has no expenses aside from her car.

The worst part of all of this is her attitude toward my parents. She hates living with them, and genuinely feels burdened by having to deal with them. They don't get along at all. She thinks it's the worst to live there. I wish she would understand how easy she has it. My niece is growing up in a great home, something she would not be able to provide.

My oldest sister is now offering to take her and my niece on as dependants. She some how feels bad for my sister having to live with mom and dad, and thinks she can do better. Not sure how though, despite her high salary she cannot manage money either. To top it off, my parents live in a LCOL area, and oldest sister lives in a HCOL area. This will make it impossible for my other sister to become independent.

I just don't get it... I don't want help from anyone for anything.

Just Joe

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2018, 08:36:20 AM »
Maybe the daughter ought to be raised separate from her mother to protect the daughter's mental health. I've known a few negative Nellys over the years and thought that they would be really hard on a child who didn't understand the adult's problems. Might create another generation of problems along the way.

carolinap

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2018, 08:48:17 AM »
I think this term NEET includes a lot of people, not necessarily freeloaders.
Technically, FIREd people may be "Not in Education, Employment, or Training".

Besides that, there are people with mental and physical health issues, people in temporary situations (just graduated, recently unemployed)...

But specifically in this reddit forum, the typical whining internet male seems to be the majority of people. The first posts I saw were blaming their NEET status over the fact that they are not good looking or not female, suggesting that it's easy to seduce a husband or an employer for money in this cases.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 08:52:40 AM by carolinap »

Just Joe

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #74 on: August 20, 2018, 08:51:12 AM »
Denial of self-responsibility. I'm not GQ cover material either. I feel their pain. ;) /s

pachnik

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2018, 09:46:35 AM »
Denial of self-responsibility. I'm not GQ cover material either. I feel their pain. ;) /s

This made me LOL!  Thanks Just Joe.  I am not Vogue material myself!  :)

LennStar

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #76 on: August 20, 2018, 11:22:17 AM »
@LennStar
How do these people have anything left after paying for transport, food during work, nice clothes and the drinking? (and for the men, uh, other expenses. Visiting ladies of pleasure with their co-workers or/ and boss. I don't know about Japan but in China it seems to be very normal too.)
Is there anything left to feed and dress a wife and/ or children.at home?


That is the wrong question.

It should be liek this:
How do they get their wives to give them so much money?
Money in Japan is the (house)wife's responsibility and the man only gets an allowance.

Working Bee is the right comparison for those Salaryman ;)

I always think the "girls should not work" conservaties should get a healthy dose of this. A lot would probably change their mind.

btw. prostitution is forbidden since after WWII, I am quite sure because of America. Historically prostitution was very normal (no connection to sin like in Christianity) and depending on type a high-status occupation.
And, since we are speaking of Japan, this prohibition has lead to an amazing assortment of creative results. There are even establishments where you can "chikan" - molest girls in imitated trains. Of course there is only touching and never...

I would recommend you to read the German Wikipedia article of you can read German. The english leaves out all the interesting historical stuff.

Mon€yp€nny

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #77 on: August 20, 2018, 12:41:17 PM »
Chikan sounds very sick. I wonder whether that lowers the number of rapes cause the fantasy has been full filed or that makes a great general rehearsals for sick individuals that will long for the real experience. Ick.
The German wiki mentioned China and South Korea too but we know people working in factories and sweat shops around the globe suffer in the same way as these office workers.
The world really has gone mad. Crap has to be produced for a couple of cents so everyone can gather a lot of  crap to impress others they don't even like and feel 'wealthy'. Owning all that crap causes stress, making people feel miserable and overwhelmed The crap goes to the scrap within months or weeks so we get crap in the air we breathe, the water we drink, products we eat. Who benefits from this, nobody seems to.

Didn't know Japanese men get an allowance, why do they get so much?
In the old days, workers were paid their weekly wages in the bar that was also owned by their boss. Or they would be paid on Saturday and walk straight to the pub with their money. The wives with guts waited for their husbands at the gate. Husband gave the wife his money, she would give him his allowance so he couldn't waste all their money on alcohol and gambling. Many children had moms that were not that brave and many went hungry cause dad was a drunk. An aggressive drunk. Is that the direction I have to take to understand why Japanese wives give their salary men such a large allowance?

But back to the topic. I actually hope my kids will stay with us for as long as they want. I'm just not going to support them.financially. So no job, no money.  When they are in college, they can get a small job, we will only finance the basic neccesities.
I hope they will stay home and save up. That will give them a nice start in life. When they have finished school I would expect some money for utilities, food and 'rent'
As long as they are respectful towards us, they can stay and save up as long as they want. Depending on their partner, I would not even mind it when a partner would move in temporarily.

Just Joe

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2018, 08:03:35 AM »
@LennStar
How do these people have anything left after paying for transport, food during work, nice clothes and the drinking? (and for the men, uh, other expenses. Visiting ladies of pleasure with their co-workers or/ and boss. I don't know about Japan but in China it seems to be very normal too.)
Is there anything left to feed and dress a wife and/ or children.at home?


That is the wrong question.

It should be liek this:
How do they get their wives to give them so much money?
Money in Japan is the (house)wife's responsibility and the man only gets an allowance.

Working Bee is the right comparison for those Salaryman ;)

I always think the "girls should not work" conservaties should get a healthy dose of this. A lot would probably change their mind.

btw. prostitution is forbidden since after WWII, I am quite sure because of America. Historically prostitution was very normal (no connection to sin like in Christianity) and depending on type a high-status occupation.
And, since we are speaking of Japan, this prohibition has lead to an amazing assortment of creative results. There are even establishments where you can "chikan" - molest girls in imitated trains. Of course there is only touching and never...

I would recommend you to read the German Wikipedia article of you can read German. The english leaves out all the interesting historical stuff.

Google translate browser plugin. I've taken to reading multiple language versions of some articles on Wikipedia. Its worthwhile.

LennStar

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2018, 10:13:09 AM »
Google translate browser plugin. I've taken to reading multiple language versions of some articles on Wikipedia. Its worthwhile.

Let's just say I don't trust automatic translations. Wikipedia might work better then most pages (I am sure google somehow usese WP as training material) though.

But if you have machine translations you might try this one:
https://www.deepl.com/translator

German -> English should work very well.

oh, I see I forgot the link for those interested:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Japan

Gondolin

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2018, 08:02:24 AM »
Quote
She grew up in a country that's been consistently at war since she was a baby, where income inequality is rampant, and where government has been heavily influenced by wealth and radicalized religious fundamentalism

So....she grew up in America?

LennStar

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2018, 07:42:28 AM »
Quote
She grew up in a country that's been consistently at war since she was a baby, where income inequality is rampant, and where government has been heavily influenced by wealth and radicalized religious fundamentalism

So....she grew up in America?

You mean the USA.
Always the same error...

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LibrarianFuzz

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #83 on: October 05, 2018, 03:16:10 PM »
This is...horrifying.

LibrarianFuzz

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Re: NEET. Not neat.
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2018, 03:21:04 PM »
How would the parent break the cycle?

Give Junior $20 and send them on an errand, then change the locks.

Nederstash

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2018, 04:00:33 AM »
Holy heck GS!

I've always enjoyed reading your posts since they seem to be full of wisdom. It seems *extensive* experience comes with that wisdom, or maybe even created it.

Sorry you had to deal with all that. You know the forum loves you here.

I feel the love, especially when it comes with sarcasm attached.

Wisdom comes from experience, and experience comes from doing unwise things. I certainly did my share. Sadly, I also have the kind of mind that likes to replay things and to look at them from several different directions, simultaneously.

Holy crap, Squeaks. You know we love you, right? You're one of my favorite people here, probably because of your sharp tongue and shiny spine. I'm sorry your daughter acts like this, you never deserved that. Sometimes nature trumps nurture... but you have to let her hit rock bottom. Someone on reddit said that saving someone is also a form of enabling, by not letting someone face the consequences of their actions. Can't imagine how tough this must be. For what it's worth, from one random commenter on the planet to another: I'm proud of you!

NevermindScrooge

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #86 on: October 21, 2018, 12:34:27 PM »
Well, I clicked on this thread because I thought I might learn something new, having never heard of NEET. Well, you didn't disappoint, I certainly learned, but ye gods, how is this a thing? I absolutely feel very sorry for the people who genuinely want to change their circumstances but find themselves thwarted; however, the parasites among them, I cannot wrap my head around the lack of empathy and pride. By pride I mean that I assumed that everyone would be ashamed if anyone found out that you're leeching of anyone. So thank you OP for making me a bit less naive ;)

@GrimSqueaker: you have been my favourite person on this forum for a long time. I think your comments are always funny, insightful and to the point and I kinda want to be like you when I grow up. Your story in dealing with your daughter is chilling and you deserve so much respect for enduring it. Warm internet hugs from the Netherlands!

LennStar

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #87 on: October 22, 2018, 12:40:37 PM »
however, the parasites among them, I cannot wrap my head around the lack of empathy and pride. By pride I mean that I assumed that everyone would be ashamed if anyone found out that you're leeching of anyone.

Hm... lets talk a bit realism here, right?

What do you mean with parasites?
Those people the follow the evolutionary successful path of doing the least possible amount of work?  From the species point there is nothing to blame, those people and their genes are more likely to survive in certain situations. Like some trees have leefes earlier than others, and/or lose them earler too. 

Do you coll those of the opposite position wasters?
You surely should! We are wasting tremendous amounts of finite resources and btw destroying those that regenerate in increasing pace. If there were more "leechers", we maybe would not destroy what makes the survival of humanity possible.

Of course you could also call those work bees egoistic, not giving away work and pressing other to their conformation of what a "good life" should be e.g. work under bad conditions until you die, instead of just what you need.

 

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #88 on: October 22, 2018, 12:51:32 PM »
What do you mean with parasites?
Those people the follow the evolutionary successful path of doing the least possible amount of work?

The people who actively weaken the support system that allows them to get by doing the least possible amount of work.

Parasites harm the host as opposed to having a symbiotic relationship with it.

onlykelsey

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #89 on: October 22, 2018, 12:56:53 PM »
Someone posted about the "Karpman triangle" elsewhere and now I see it everywhere (in romantic relationships, family relationships, and even more social phenomena like this). 

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

I wonder if MMMers are generally starting from the persecutor or rescuer position on the triangle...

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #90 on: October 22, 2018, 02:35:34 PM »
Someone posted about the "Karpman triangle" elsewhere and now I see it everywhere (in romantic relationships, family relationships, and even more social phenomena like this). 

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

I wonder if MMMers are generally starting from the persecutor or rescuer position on the triangle...

So far as I can tell we don't buy into the triangle or its behavior patterns at all.

I read through the article but after I picked through all the jargon I decided I didn't agree with it even after looking up some of the terminology so that the multiple definitions for the same phenomena started to have some semblance of consistency. It's so incredibly reactive and mindless. I've seen some people who do behave like that, but they're such a tiny subset of the population and generally they're suffering from severe untreated mental illness or substance impairment. Or both. Many of the underclass people I've come across in my interaction with my daughter behave that way. Even she is gradually snapping out of it.

To participate in that triangle thing requires an ongoing commitment to the interaction and to the drama. As in, the person on the triangle values the interaction more than he or she values having a healthy and drama-free life. So does everyone else on the triangle. The person at, say, the "persecutor" corner is therefore confident that he or she can persecute at will and still have the same relationship as before. When the victim or target buggers off instead of sticking around for more, and dials down or discontinues the relationship, the triangle collapses. All it takes is to vote (d) "None of the above", take whatever it is you're bringing to the group, and step back a bit. They have to come around, if they want further access to your resources.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2018, 12:47:01 AM »
Quote
She grew up in a country that's been consistently at war since she was a baby, where income inequality is rampant, and where government has been heavily influenced by wealth and radicalized religious fundamentalism

So....she grew up in America?

You mean the USA.
Always the same error...

Please. We prefer the more sociologically correct moniker, "Yankistan".

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: NEET. Not neat. (people intentionally living off others)
« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2018, 10:59:41 PM »
So far as I can tell we don't buy into the triangle or its behavior patterns at all. ... I've seen some people who do behave like that, but they're such a tiny subset of the population and generally they're suffering from severe untreated mental illness or substance impairment.
I don't think it's a bad lay framework of common inherited social dysfunction, but as often happens in a bid for relevance and bookings for the Reality Guide (is that trademarked?), the strongest language ("all of us!") was chosen. It's only relevant when two off-balance people interact, but as a counselor Reality Guide, the writer is subject to selection bias, since when a healthy person encounters this they do step away, just as you say, the unhealthy one gets an object lesson, and it's over. In cases of two or more dysfunctional people, a counselor is more likely to see it, because it can and will drag on forever.

I wonder if MMMers are generally starting from the persecutor or rescuer position on the triangle...
The writer seems to put forth that the appropriate place is "off the triangle," though I'd say that's possibly better described as in the center, a healthy place of self-responsibility, agency, and staying in your own lane. I'd like to think Squeaker's right about mustachians in their present-day lives, meaning most of us would be fairly central by this register. People in healthy families get to start there, or close.

Judging from the sheer length of the Relatives thread, though, a lot of us would be said to come from awful "starting gate" positions and had to learn to cope to get here. I've seen a TON of erstwhile rescuers on the forum, often hoping for help and encouragement learning to prioritize their own wellbeing (hi). But a lot of mustachian converts (and, I'd say, an alarming number of people in the US generally) have grown up with the message they couldn't solve their own problems and were dependent on (paying) someone else (or something else) to come save them (repair their car, repair their self-image, repair their social standing...). Take the waaah-brigade MMM writes about, comfortable middle-class people who bewilderingly substitute defeatism for agency, for example - even if they're otherwise functional adults, a little too much victimhood is arguably all that stands between them and FI, summed up as "I can't!"

dude

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Re: NEET. Not neat.
« Reply #93 on: November 14, 2018, 07:21:23 AM »
I mean based on the literal definition of the acronym itself, aren't a lot of us aiming to ultimately be NEET? That said, moving away from the word for word definition and into the posters on that subreddit: Ugh.

Slee_Stack, I think the below might have been one of the replies to the same poster you found.

Quote
That's funny, my parents suddenly dying is the one thing that gives me any hope. After he's gone I would have more than enough money to buy my own place and live extremely cheaply. I would probably have to get some shitty part time job eventually but if I could actually afford to live on my own I could live with that.
Young is a relative term, so yes, a literal interpretation of NEET describes many of us here.  I hope I don't ever get lumped in with that though.

The quote you found is even more disturbing.  Yuck.  Do people really think this way?  How awful.

Sadly, yes.

I browsed through some of the posts on that board and the evidence suggests that, yes, there's quite the little cluster of them. Many of them have mental illnesses such as anxiety and depression, but the disorders are not being sufficiently treated because the "NEET lifestyle" of living in someone else's home, doing no work, and contributing nothing to the household is easier. They are being enabled by other people, typically parents, whom they invariably resent or even despise. They do not wish to work because they believe that the only available jobs are "soul killing", however they systematically reject every other course of action that could lead to independence. They are self-absorbed enough (possibly as a consequence of the various mental illnesses) to not really consider the extent to which their freeloading affects others. They *despise* the people who support them and regard them with contempt.

Their world view is kind of like my daughter's, except introverted. All the NEETs want is to stay in their own rooms and only come out to eat and consume, or possibly buy things although there's a recurring theme of frugality because many of them just don't have money available because of the work decisions they've made. By contrast, my daughter is almost hyperactive socially wants to be constantly going places (just not school or work) and doing things (just not productive or financially viable activity).

my god, this is my wife's cousin to a "T". His mother has coddled him all his life. He hasn't held down a job for more than a few weeks at a time. Relatives say, "oh, he's got mental health issues." Bullshit. He's a lazy piece of shit! His father -- from whom he was estranged for a while as a result of the parents' divorce -- died not too long ago after a long battle with cancer (the son provided no comfort or emotional support whatsoever) and left him and his brother a fair amount of money (including a rental property). It is a foregone conclusion this kid will fritter the money away in a matter of a couple years, if not months. I have no sympathy for people like this whatsoever.