Author Topic: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.  (Read 345511 times)

Captain FIRE

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #700 on: August 12, 2016, 09:12:56 AM »
If it were my husband, I'd be tempted to shake him until some sense dropped in.

- If he doesn't accept the money, maybe remind him that you would possibly liable for gift taxes (as you are giving it to one brother rather than simple disclaiming the inheritance).

- Also ask him how the sister might feel about this situation - where one brother gets nothing, and the other brother gets 2x what she got.  Could this set up bad blood between siblings?

- Do you have kids?  Do you plan to?  Ask him whether he thinks his mom would be upset that the money didn't go to benefit your kids (presumably down the line many years when you pass away) as she intended.  See if he might be interested in using the money to set up a family trust for them.

- Tell him even if he doesn't want keep the money, he could give this away to charities who can make great use of it.

- Remind him he doesn't need to decide now what to do with the money.

- Gently, very diplomatically, convey that while this is his inheritance, you are married, a team, and you would like him to consider your opinions and how it affects you and your life too.

- See if maybe he'd go to counseling.  Maybe some unresolved issues with mother's death that are wrapped up here in addition to his ideas of success/failure.

BlueHouse

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #701 on: August 12, 2016, 09:24:49 AM »

- Remind him he doesn't need to decide now what to do with the money.

- See if maybe he'd go to counseling.  Maybe some unresolved issues with mother's death that are wrapped up here in addition to his ideas of success/failure.

Great advice so far.  I'd also suggest that you remind him that the money isn't about him and what he wants -- it's about his mom's wishes and that includes the wish for her children to continue to get along with each other.  Creating an inequality can throw off the equilibrium.  Don't let him be responsible for that. 
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Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #702 on: August 12, 2016, 09:53:38 AM »
He might be caught up in the idea of taking money from the brother rather than taking money from the mother. Worth checking as it's an easy fix.

[I'd have issues about taking a handout that I didn't need from a sibling - this is clearly not the case here. But maybe the notion of getting a cheque / bank transfer with brother's name on it is confusing matters.]

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #703 on: August 12, 2016, 09:04:20 PM »
Could he take the money, put it in a separate account, and designate that for the eventual benefit of your children?  You and your husband achieve FI on your own, but your mad MIL's money on down though the family.
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kayvent

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #704 on: August 13, 2016, 06:24:28 AM »
If it were my husband, I'd be tempted to shake him until some sense dropped in.

- If he doesn't accept the money, maybe remind him that you would possibly liable for gift taxes (as you are giving it to one brother rather than simple disclaiming the inheritance).

- Also ask him how the sister might feel about this situation - where one brother gets nothing, and the other brother gets 2x what she got.  Could this set up bad blood between siblings?

- Do you have kids?  Do you plan to?  Ask him whether he thinks his mom would be upset that the money didn't go to benefit your kids (presumably down the line many years when you pass away) as she intended.  See if he might be interested in using the money to set up a family trust for them.

- Tell him even if he doesn't want keep the money, he could give this away to charities who can make great use of it.

- Remind him he doesn't need to decide now what to do with the money.

- Gently, very diplomatically, convey that while this is his inheritance, you are married, a team, and you would like him to consider your opinions and how it affects you and your life too.

- See if maybe he'd go to counseling.  Maybe some unresolved issues with mother's death that are wrapped up here in addition to his ideas of success/failure.

I was thinking about the sister in China too. While I disagree with the brother not wanting to take 800K, he might as well tell the other brother to give 400K to make it fair between his siblings that are willing to accept the inheritance.

human

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #705 on: August 13, 2016, 08:46:09 AM »
Not really drama, but we've got an unusual situation (I think).  DH got a letter from the trustee of an estate today, and his share is <2% of said estate.  The money, fine, he'll be happy to take that, but he also will get the same small percentage of a dozen properties in and around a small town in NC, some of which is vacant land, some is vacant buildings, and some, I believe, is rented.  So now there will be over 40 people, spread out across the country, who each own a small amount of this bunch of real estate.

At this point, we don't even know if the rents will cover taxes and maintenance, and nothing really sells in that area.  Plus, trying to get over 3 dozen people to agree on anything...  Is it possible to say "no thanks" to the real estate part and keep the cash?



Get the estate to liquidate the real estate and distribute cash. Or at the very least put the beneficiaries in touch so that you can sell off your share (if you go cheap enough, someone will want it.)

Seriously.

Getting that many people to ever agree will be a nightmare. A friend of mine spent about 10 years untangling a situation where about 10 family members inherited a property. It was ridiculous.

I once had a true good ole' boy from the swamps of Louisiana, as an employee. He came to me with a document, as he needed a witness. He was inheriting a couple of hundred bucks as a very distant relative of a long departed, VERY large landholder in the swamps. I asked how many of his kin were getting a little bit of the pie? He told me that they numbered in the hundreds. I imagine at that point, it's a bit like a class action suit. legal council makes a ton, to make sure that each third cousin get's a bit.

 I have another buddy that ended up with a hell of a pile of cheddar, well over a million, but it took nearly forty years until the estate was finally settled. His grandfather was sharp and bought a ton of farm land, and woodland, before WW2, when our local farmers were basically operating on a sustenance level, and barely feeding their own families. A lot of farms were bought for less than $10/acre. He held on to most of it, then died, quite old, in the early 1960s. The battle to decide exactly who got what % of the pie lasted for the next twenty years, or more, before the first property was liquidated. The battle even went to the state supreme court. As sons and daughters died off, it would cause new pissing contests to flare up.  It became the life's work of one estate attorney, who even wrote a book about handling one of the longest contested estates in our state's history. The final property was liquidated in the early 2000s.

I don't have any stories, but do you have the title of this book? Haven't googled anything just curious if you knew it offhand.

iris lily

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #706 on: August 13, 2016, 10:38:45 PM »
Not really drama, but we've got an unusual situation (I think).  DH got a letter from the trustee of an estate today, and his share is <2% of said estate.  The money, fine, he'll be happy to take that, but he also will get the same small percentage of a dozen properties in and around a small town in NC, some of which is vacant land, some is vacant buildings, and some, I believe, is rented.  So now there will be over 40 people, spread out across the country, who each own a small amount of this bunch of real estate.

At this point, we don't even know if the rents will cover taxes and maintenance, and nothing really sells in that area.  Plus, trying to get over 3 dozen people to agree on anything...  Is it possible to say "no thanks" to the real estate part and keep the cash?



Get the estate to liquidate the real estate and distribute cash. Or at the very least put the beneficiaries in touch so that you can sell off your share (if you go cheap enough, someone will want it.)

Seriously.

Getting that many people to ever agree will be a nightmare. A friend of mine spent about 10 years untangling a situation where about 10 family members inherited a property. It was ridiculous.

I once had a true good ole' boy from the swamps of Louisiana, as an employee. He came to me with a document, as he needed a witness. He was inheriting a couple of hundred bucks as a very distant relative of a long departed, VERY large landholder in the swamps. I asked how many of his kin were getting a little bit of the pie? He told me that they numbered in the hundreds. I imagine at that point, it's a bit like a class action suit. legal council makes a ton, to make sure that each third cousin get's a bit.

 I have another buddy that ended up with a hell of a pile of cheddar, well over a million, but it took nearly forty years until the estate was finally settled. His grandfather was sharp and bought a ton of farm land, and woodland, before WW2, when our local farmers were basically operating on a sustenance level, and barely feeding their own families. A lot of farms were bought for less than $10/acre. He held on to most of it, then died, quite old, in the early 1960s. The battle to decide exactly who got what % of the pie lasted for the next twenty years, or more, before the first property was liquidated. The battle even went to the state supreme court. As sons and daughters died off, it would cause new pissing contests to flare up.  It became the life's work of one estate attorney, who even wrote a book about handling one of the longest contested estates in our state's history. The final property was liquidated in the early 2000s.

I don't have any stories, but do you have the title of this book? Haven't googled anything just curious if you knew it offhand.
Or try Charles Dickens' Bleak House that includes, the story of a long running lawsuit in Jardyce vs Jardyce about an inheritance. Old Dickens knew his human race, they had greedy lawyers even back then tying up estates in the courts for decades, them earning much on the backs of inheritors.

Beaker

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #707 on: August 15, 2016, 03:47:16 PM »
Or try Charles Dickens' Bleak House that includes, the story of a long running lawsuit in Jardyce vs Jardyce about an inheritance.

Jarndyce vs Jarndyce was supposedly based on Jennens estate. That dispute had been running for 55 years when Bleak House was published, and ended up running for 117 years in total. I'm not sure that a century long lawsuit counts as dramatic though - I'd imagine most of it was incredibly tedious.

Sailing

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #708 on: August 16, 2016, 08:49:46 PM »
My very anti mustachian in laws split 20 years ago, just prior to our wedding. They were completely broke, so my spendthrift MIL started bonking her boss at work, and planned to elope with him. Boss ended up killing himself so she sued her work for workplace harassment and received about $80k, decided to retire at 45, leaving FIL (aged 65) completely penniless. She kicked him out of the social housing they lived in. Rather than see him homeless we took out a second mortgage on our home for 20k loan to buy him an on-site caravan to live in, and he agreed to leave it to us in his will, so we would eventually get some money back. (Side note #1 Six months later MIL moved out of social housing onto her next victim who owned his own house. If she had left FIL in the house he would have been set for life, rent limited to a percentage of his Centrelink pension. SN#2 unbeknowns to us FIL applies for and gets a first home owners grant of $7000, and despite the 2nd mortgage we are paying off he uses it and other cash to buy a brand new car)

Flash forward 20 years. FIL is now 85 and starting to flag. MIL has spent all her cash long ago, and swoops in. FIL signs power of attorney for her. She takes possession of his car, and sells the caravan for slightly more than we paid, moves him into aged care and starts to run interference on any discussions with FIL. I asked him (politely) what the plans were, and he told me with a big grin he planned to spend the lot. MIL rushed in at that point and starts screaming at me for upsetting FIL. "What's he supposed to do, save it for his old age" etc. I was really rattled so left it, although I was really CROSS. Later same day MIL tried to smooth it over saying how much she appreciated our help cleaning out the van, which really gave me the yucks.

Two weeks later MIL sends an email that FIL has decided to hand over the van money, which I was not expecting. She really tried not to, it was difficult, she had to consult with Centrelink etc that it would not affect his pension. The money was eventually ungraciously handed over and she put on the transfer "gift from Dad" which irked me but whatever. Note that she did not hand over all of it, only refunded the purchase price from 20 years prior and she retains the $2000 extra. I cop a lot of flack from extended In laws for hounding FIL for the money, even though literally all I had done was ask what his plans were.

Flash forward one more year and FIL dies. The will has been recently rewritten so that MIL shares in the (very small estate) equally. We paid for the funeral, (despite the fact she picked everything) she kept the car which apparently is not part of the estate and a share of the cash (a few thousand) while we got $200 after paying for the funeral.

What's the moral of this tale? I really don't know. It took me a long time to get over the anger, looking back maybe I should have written off the $20k, we don't really need the money now, but at the time it was a lot of money, eg the deposit for our house was $7500 only 3 years earlier, so it was a lot then. We were put under a lot of pressure from my husbands extended family to do it. My MIL now tells anyone who will listen all I care about is money, but I think she is projecting her own actions onto me. So I learnt some hard lessons and moved on. Would I do it again? NO!!

Dicey

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #709 on: August 16, 2016, 09:24:46 PM »
Oh, "Sailing", I am so sorry you ended up in this position. Reminds me of the saying "No good deed goes unpunished." You're damn skippy the MIL is projecting. If she screams loudly enough about you, she thinks no one will notice her shenanigans. Since you don't really need the money now, perhaps you can think of a philanthropic use for it that would honor your father. Just make sure it's nothing she can bask in or take credit for.

You write as if you're a regular here, yet this is your "first" post. I'm guessing you've assumed a new identity for the sake of sharing this story. I hope that in time, the pain she has caused will ease. You don't deserve it.
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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #710 on: August 16, 2016, 10:19:06 PM »
Sailing, that story of yours sounds awful.

It seems to me that your lying sneak of a MIL has indeed managed to turn some of the extended family against you, if they're weighing on on a question you asked her ex-husband. This is what manipulative people do to either get their way or to punish other people for asserting reasonable boundaries or holding up their end of a deal. Sadly, the fact they believed her indicates that her "complain loudly enough and other people will pile on" belief has a basis in fact. This isn't a healthy group of people. I'm sorry.

It sounds to me like you got the best part of that family.
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Sailing

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #711 on: August 16, 2016, 11:56:17 PM »
Whoops sounds like I was a bit heavy handed... I am 6 months past this, and have managed to lose most of my anger, it's still there but I manage it by not having anything to do with my MIL. I do watch every penny when it comes to dealing with her. Looking back we got off pretty lightly, we did get the $20k back. I would have really gnashed my teeth watching her spend her way through it that's for sure. MIL's greed was just soooo unexpected 20 years after she dumped FIL penniless, and the nastiness she uses to rip off family members still stuns me if I think about it, so I try not to.

We have a very lucky life, doing well financially. My husband does not like to discuss his mothers behaviour, and will defend her, but he also does not want to see her without other family present. So we see her once a year at Xmas. I don't think anyone takes her complaints about me too seriously, after piling on that one time.

I often use my MIL's latest antics to make my family laugh, and/or shake their head, which helps me confirm I'm not insane. This is actually my very first post, but have been devouring the MMM columns and then the forums avidly. It's a great resource, apologies if I brought anyone down, totally not my intent. What nice people you all are. I was simply thinking Inheritance drama, yep got something to contribute there! :)


HairyUpperLip

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #712 on: August 17, 2016, 07:28:26 AM »
apologies if I brought anyone down

You are good. This thread is for these types of stories.

And I agree with the others, your MIL sounds horrible.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #713 on: August 17, 2016, 08:30:09 AM »
My MIL now tells anyone who will listen all I care about is money, but I think she is projecting her own actions onto me. So I learnt some hard lessons and moved on. Would I do it again? NO!!

Gawd I hate projectionists... Wait - maybe that isn't the right word. ;) Just trying to inject some silliness into a serious story. Yep - sounds like she is projecting. We have witnessed this from a certain person as well. DW & I find it a bit entertaining now that we see the situation for what it is.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #714 on: August 18, 2016, 11:06:32 AM »
For being only 6 months past you are doing extremely well. Sorry you have to deal with that woman.
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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #715 on: August 22, 2016, 07:28:40 AM »
My FIL was telling me he is meeting with a lawyer to put everything into a trust. He's trying to figure out how to get the house passed to my wife and my BIL.

Oh no. No no no no no. My wife and I don't ever want to live there. My BIL, 30, still lives there. If the house is left to "us", it will basically be left to my BIL. FIL says that then he'd have to buy us out of it--that doesn't work!

I told him that the easisest estates that my parents have dealt with (3 of them) were the ones that had basically nothing of value left--the cars and jewelry had been gifted or sold; any real estate had been sold, etc. The ones that had a car or a house left were a pain. PLEASE do not leave anything of value when you die, otherwise we'll have to deal with BIL, who IMHO is an idiot.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #716 on: August 22, 2016, 08:55:10 AM »
My FIL was telling me he is meeting with a lawyer to put everything into a trust. He's trying to figure out how to get the house passed to my wife and my BIL.

Oh no. No no no no no. My wife and I don't ever want to live there. My BIL, 30, still lives there. If the house is left to "us", it will basically be left to my BIL. FIL says that then he'd have to buy us out of it--that doesn't work!

I told him that the easisest estates that my parents have dealt with (3 of them) were the ones that had basically nothing of value left--the cars and jewelry had been gifted or sold; any real estate had been sold, etc. The ones that had a car or a house left were a pain. PLEASE do not leave anything of value when you die, otherwise we'll have to deal with BIL, who IMHO is an idiot.

You might want to see if you can steer the FIL toward an estate lawyer who will handle EVERYTHING, including liquidating assets, showing the BIL the door, and generally making it as stress free as possible. I have a good friend who has been an estate attorney forever. A big part of her job is engaging in very detailed pre-planning of the estate, then executing the plan, when the time comes. In reality, one of the most important task she tackles is dealing with estates where one heir has the potential to really be a problem child, and would create years of headaches and stress, if they have the opportunity, and another heir was executor.  There is nothing that shuts down the bullshit more than an estate lawyer telling the problem heir, "I am following the wishes of the deceased, and the letter of the law, which is what I am paid to do. If you find issue with my work, please retain council  to protect your own interests, if you feel the need".  99% of the time, the problem one ends up at another lawyer for their "free initial consultation" and gets politely told that they are wrong, don't have a case, and need to get over it.
Doing it this way, you simply don't have to deal with the BIL. Dad hired the lawyer, all the decisions were made by dad and not negotiable. The BIL's job is to dummy up, move out, and provide his forwarding address so the lawyer can send the check for his cut.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #717 on: August 22, 2016, 09:14:05 AM »
Following because so far nobody in my family has had any drama with inheritances. I don't look forward to the passing of either of my in-laws; I see drama coming if my FIL passes first (not as likely but you never know). Luckily my parents are set so my brother and I have nothing to worry about *knock on wood*

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #718 on: August 22, 2016, 09:51:02 AM »
My FIL was telling me he is meeting with a lawyer to put everything into a trust. He's trying to figure out how to get the house passed to my wife and my BIL.

Oh no. No no no no no. My wife and I don't ever want to live there. My BIL, 30, still lives there. If the house is left to "us", it will basically be left to my BIL. FIL says that then he'd have to buy us out of it--that doesn't work!

I told him that the easisest estates that my parents have dealt with (3 of them) were the ones that had basically nothing of value left--the cars and jewelry had been gifted or sold; any real estate had been sold, etc. The ones that had a car or a house left were a pain. PLEASE do not leave anything of value when you die, otherwise we'll have to deal with BIL, who IMHO is an idiot.

My dad's will explicitly said "sell the house, split my stuff fairly and sell what is left".  That was a godsend.  Keep pushing.
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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #719 on: August 24, 2016, 04:02:00 PM »
Just posting to follow. This thread has some great stories.
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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #720 on: August 25, 2016, 04:06:46 PM »
There were 4 sisters living there back in Ukraine.

3 sisters did have children. 1 sister did not have any.

The single sister started approaching really old age and was apparently manipulating all her nieces and nephews by telling each of them that her one bedroom condo right at the beach of Azov sea will go to them if they take care of her.

My mother, one of her nieces, also was receiving her promises about condo. She was single mother by that time for many years and was not rich.

Finally single sister decided (or was helped with her decision) to move to one of her sisters children in another part of the country (not to my mother) and right after that she died very quickly leaving them her condo.

That particular family was very active around single sister after she announced considering giving away her condo. They were already very rich, possessing property and having several doctors in the family.

My mother (who was promised the condo many times) told that that was a huge mistake of her aunt to move to that other sisters family. If she continued living by the seaside, she would not die that quickly for sure. (Azov sea is well known for healing high blood pressure, skin problems, preventing flu etc, very warm and healthy sea)

Bicycle_B

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #721 on: August 29, 2016, 02:32:56 AM »
In case you haven't seen it, I offer you:  Horace and Pete!

Youtube version begins here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnFSQ_1wpdA

Not trying to cross promote, but paid version is here:
https://louisck.net/show/horace-and-pete

It certainly involves a story of inheritance drama...

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #722 on: August 30, 2016, 02:06:56 PM »
I'm standing on the sidelines to a family inheritance drama involving my grandmother, two of her sisters, and two second cousins (my mother's cousins).  Things were quiet for a while but just flared up again.

Unfortunately, dementia stalks my family - all six of my grandmother's sisters developed it in their late seventies but are incredibly long-lived.  My grandmother, now in her mid-90's has had to watch her sisters slowly succumb to a vegetative state.  Although none were well off, they had small pensions and savings.  There's two sisters now in care and both have been the center of a legal drama. 

Several years ago, the eldest sister (ES) went into care and a niece and nephew took on the role of managing personal affairs as well as financial.  The nephew, an accountant, was told by the other cousin to hand over all money to her as it was hers to spend as she liked.  Evil Cousin actually took him to court, but ended up having her legal ass handed back to her on a platter by the judge.  The judge also informed Evil Cousin that she had no right to prevent visits from any family members.  Things carried on quietly until just last week, when Evil Cousin tried to prevent the family from visiting ES on her birthday and told the care home to block them from entering.  So, a lawsuit will be filed in the next week to remove Evil Cousin from her position of authority, or to ensure a court order exists maintaining family access.

Even more upsetting and unbelievable is the fact that a similar situation exists with another sibling of my grandmother, who unfortunately decided to sign over all power of attorney including financial control to Evil Cousin.  Evil Cousin promptly placed this sister in a care center (not telling anyone else in the family where she was) and informed management not to allow any outside visits (including threatening to have my grandmother arrested if she trespassed).  I wrote a formal letter of complaint to the local agency who oversees the care of 'vulnerable adults' but was told that because Evil Cousin has paperwork authorizing her control over this elderly lady with dementia, that there's nothing we can do except to file a lawsuit.  We simply don't have the means to take someone who likely has a serious personality disorder (sociopath, borderline personality) to court.  And to add insult to injury, Evil Cousin has not visited this poor lady in the nursing home once since having her admitted several year ago. 

Seems to be a case of neglect and clear manipulation - just makes me sick to think of it. 

Bleah.  It's a bad day.

Daleth

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #723 on: August 30, 2016, 03:01:33 PM »
Of course I still do need to keep pushing to find out once and for all if he had a will and take it from there.

If Canada works at all like the US, which it might since we're both originally based on UK law, anyone who dies leaves an estate that must be probated, i.e., dealt with in court. The only way around that in the US is to leave everything to a trust, but I gather that most countries don't have trust laws as liberal as the US. Here's an article I just found that says that in Canada, basically it's got to be probated unless every single thing he left was either jointly owned (e.g. a house jointly owned with a spouse) or was the type of asset with a named beneficiary (e.g., life insurance policies):
http://estatelawcanada.blogspot.com/2010/05/does-every-will-have-to-be-probated.html

More on Canadian probate:
http://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/retirement/inheritance/to-probate-or-not-to-probate
That explains how probate works in Canada. Note this interesting point: "Once a grant of probate is granted by the court, the probated will becomes a public document, available for viewing by anyone interested in searching for it."

So, find out where he died and where he lived when he died (which could be two different places). What province? Then call the main courthouse in that province and say, "My children's father recently died and I need to find out what court his estate is being probated in. Is there a special court for probating wills and estates?" They should be able to point you to the right place and even give you a phone number. Call that court and explain that your children's father recently died and you don't know who the executor is, so you're calling the court to find out what's going on and how to lodge a claim.

If he died without a will and with some assets that don't have named beneficiaries and aren't jointly owned, some of his assets should automatically go to his children. In the US that's called dying intestate (without a testament, i.e. without a will). Each state, and presumably each province in Canada, has rules about what happens to people's assets when they die without a will--as many people do, particularly people who are on the younger side as your ex was. And those rules ALWAYS give some portion of the assets to the person's children.

If he died with a will, you need to know what it said.

In the meantime, definitely collect that $40k from the insurance company! If they send you any documents to sign, though, read through them and if you suspect that signing would mean you would have no further claims against the insurance company, have a lawyer look at it first. The insurance company is probably handling it properly but it would be sad if they were actually supposed to give your kids more than the $40k but you signed away the right to sue them to get the full amount. This is a purely hypothetical problem though... at least get started with the insurance company, and call the court in the province where your husband died. Call the court in his town or city if there is one, or if he lived in a very rural area perhaps try the courts in the nearest town or city.

Best of luck!
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 03:11:59 PM by Daleth »

lhamo

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #724 on: August 30, 2016, 07:26:12 PM »
There were 4 sisters living there back in Ukraine.

3 sisters did have children. 1 sister did not have any.

The single sister started approaching really old age and was apparently manipulating all her nieces and nephews by telling each of them that her one bedroom condo right at the beach of Azov sea will go to them if they take care of her.

My mother, one of her nieces, also was receiving her promises about condo. She was single mother by that time for many years and was not rich.

Finally single sister decided (or was helped with her decision) to move to one of her sisters children in another part of the country (not to my mother) and right after that she died very quickly leaving them her condo.

That particular family was very active around single sister after she announced considering giving away her condo. They were already very rich, possessing property and having several doctors in the family.

My mother (who was promised the condo many times) told that that was a huge mistake of her aunt to move to that other sisters family. If she continued living by the seaside, she would not die that quickly for sure. (Azov sea is well known for healing high blood pressure, skin problems, preventing flu etc, very warm and healthy sea)

Kind of sounds like you think they killed your aunt!  I hope that isn't the case.....
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Rubic

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #725 on: September 01, 2016, 11:59:53 AM »
Interesting situation here:

Credit card debt after cosigner dies
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/70191/credit-card-debt-after-cosigner-dies

"My father is a cosigner on my brothers credit cards. He died last month.
My brother is not paying off the debt. Can we remove my fathers name? Is
my dads estate responsible? My brother owes more than the estate is worth.
My mom will be left destitute if the credit companies go after the estate."


kayvent

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #726 on: September 02, 2016, 02:55:44 AM »
Interesting situation here:

Credit card debt after cosigner dies
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/70191/credit-card-debt-after-cosigner-dies

"My father is a cosigner on my brothers credit cards. He died last month.
My brother is not paying off the debt. Can we remove my fathers name? Is
my dads estate responsible? My brother owes more than the estate is worth.
My mom will be left destitute if the credit companies go after the estate."


I saw that post early yesterday and thought "The mother will be destitute with the debt but alright otherwise? How much money can someone possibly owe on a credit card that needs a cosigner?"

The OP later qualified in a comment:

My mom is in I)linois. The estate is only about 150,000. The debt on the car loans my brother has in my dads name is about 70,000. Credit cards are over 60,000.

Yikes, I feel bad for the mother. Husband dies, she has 7x years of income (more if she will now collect her deceased husbands pension, works etc...) OR will be left with little because somehow her son has 130,000$ in debt from cars and CC.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #727 on: September 02, 2016, 10:08:49 AM »
Interesting situation here:

Credit card debt after cosigner dies
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/70191/credit-card-debt-after-cosigner-dies

"My father is a cosigner on my brothers credit cards. He died last month.
My brother is not paying off the debt. Can we remove my fathers name? Is
my dads estate responsible? My brother owes more than the estate is worth.
My mom will be left destitute if the credit companies go after the estate."


I saw that post early yesterday and thought "The mother will be destitute with the debt but alright otherwise? How much money can someone possibly owe on a credit card that needs a cosigner?"

The OP later qualified in a comment:

My mom is in I)linois. The estate is only about 150,000. The debt on the car loans my brother has in my dads name is about 70,000. Credit cards are over 60,000.

Yikes, I feel bad for the mother. Husband dies, she has 7x years of income (more if she will now collect her deceased husbands pension, works etc...) OR will be left with little because somehow her son has 130,000$ in debt from cars and CC.

Well, the vehicles get sold ASAP, that wipes out the car debt, and hopefully helps with the CC debt. And the cards have to be closed yesterday. And talk to a lawyer about what to do about the CC debt. Hopefully can just get the husband's name off them somehow.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #728 on: September 03, 2016, 08:26:43 AM »
Interesting situation here:

Credit card debt after cosigner dies
http://money.stackexchange.com/questions/70191/credit-card-debt-after-cosigner-dies

"My father is a cosigner on my brothers credit cards. He died last month.
My brother is not paying off the debt. Can we remove my fathers name? Is
my dads estate responsible? My brother owes more than the estate is worth.
My mom will be left destitute if the credit companies go after the estate."


I saw that post early yesterday and thought "The mother will be destitute with the debt but alright otherwise? How much money can someone possibly owe on a credit card that needs a cosigner?"

The OP later qualified in a comment:

My mom is in I)linois. The estate is only about 150,000. The debt on the car loans my brother has in my dads name is about 70,000. Credit cards are over 60,000.

Yikes, I feel bad for the mother. Husband dies, she has 7x years of income (more if she will now collect her deceased husbands pension, works etc...) OR will be left with little because somehow her son has 130,000$ in debt from cars and CC.

Well, the vehicles get sold ASAP, that wipes out the car debt, and hopefully helps with the CC debt. And the cards have to be closed yesterday. And talk to a lawyer about what to do about the CC debt. Hopefully can just get the husband's name off them somehow.

Illinois isn't a community property state, so unless her signature is on the dotted line as a co-signer, she isn't. Things he owned such as the cars should be liquidated, but I think the smartest thing for her to do would be to declare bankruptcy immediately, hire a lawyer to protect her assets, and make an intelligent argument that everything that can be protected under bankruptcy is "hers" and not her husband's. How the courts determine what belonged to whom will probably be more generous to her than just trying to deal directly with creditors or with the no-good spendypants son.
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Daleth

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #729 on: September 03, 2016, 04:25:22 PM »
Illinois isn't a community property state, so unless her signature is on the dotted line as a co-signer, she isn't. Things he owned such as the cars should be liquidated, but I think the smartest thing for her to do would be to declare bankruptcy immediately, hire a lawyer to protect her assets, and make an intelligent argument that everything that can be protected under bankruptcy is "hers" and not her husband's. How the courts determine what belonged to whom will probably be more generous to her than just trying to deal directly with creditors or with the no-good spendypants son.

All true: a spouse is not personally liable for the debts of a deceased spouse. Ask a lawyer if you're in a community property state, but most states aren't that. But she shouldn't have to declare bankruptcy for debts of his that she didn't co-sign on. What she needs is a consumer's rights or debtor's rights attorney, not a bankruptcy attorney.

As for things he owned, whether they should be liquidated depends on how they were held. If they were jointly owned with a right of survivorship, or owned as a "tenancy by the entireties" (something that's only possible between spouses), then they automatically became 100% hers the minute he died--they were never part of his estate and shouldn't be liquidated. If it was a bank account with a payable on death feature, so he owned it alone but it was payable on death to her, I'm 95% sure it should go to her without passing through his estate at all.


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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #730 on: September 03, 2016, 05:29:11 PM »
Illinois isn't a community property state, so unless her signature is on the dotted line as a co-signer, she isn't. Things he owned such as the cars should be liquidated, but I think the smartest thing for her to do would be to declare bankruptcy immediately, hire a lawyer to protect her assets, and make an intelligent argument that everything that can be protected under bankruptcy is "hers" and not her husband's. How the courts determine what belonged to whom will probably be more generous to her than just trying to deal directly with creditors or with the no-good spendypants son.

All true: a spouse is not personally liable for the debts of a deceased spouse. Ask a lawyer if you're in a community property state, but most states aren't that. But she shouldn't have to declare bankruptcy for debts of his that she didn't co-sign on. What she needs is a consumer's rights or debtor's rights attorney, not a bankruptcy attorney.

As for things he owned, whether they should be liquidated depends on how they were held. If they were jointly owned with a right of survivorship, or owned as a "tenancy by the entireties" (something that's only possible between spouses), then they automatically became 100% hers the minute he died--they were never part of his estate and shouldn't be liquidated. If it was a bank account with a payable on death feature, so he owned it alone but it was payable on death to her, I'm 95% sure it should go to her without passing through his estate at all.
Real estate, for sure, unless it's tenancy in common which I've heard is the default in Illinois. For a bank account I don't believe it will necessarily be that cut and dried. I've heard of too many cases where a joint account gets frozen after a monetary judgment is awarded. Ideally she shouldn't have to declare bankruptcy for debt that isn't hers, but marriage creates all kinds of financial pitfalls to go along with the tax perks.
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Daleth

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #731 on: September 07, 2016, 02:34:31 PM »
Real estate, for sure, unless it's tenancy in common which I've heard is the default in Illinois. For a bank account I don't believe it will necessarily be that cut and dried. I've heard of too many cases where a joint account gets frozen after a monetary judgment is awarded.

A joint account isn't the same as one that's payable on death to someone else. If the account holder dies and title transfers to someone else, the person to whom title transfers can take all the money out that day and go put it in a different bank so that there is nothing left in the debtor's account for creditors to attach or, as you said, freeze. The same is actually true of joint accounts, of course, except that that can be done when the other account holder is still alive--that's one of the risks of joint accounts.

As for real estate, the situation in Illinois is that UNLESS the title says something else, the property is presumed to be held as a tenancy in common, which basically means that each person owns half and neither of them automatically becomes the owner of the other half when the other co-owner dies. But married couples in Illinois can own in a tenancy by the entireties, and anyone (married or not) can be joint tenants with right of survivorship (when one owner dies, the other owner automatically owns the whole property). So you do need to look at the relevant paperwork and not just assume that this is a tenancy in common.

Info on Illinois:
http://www.illinois-attorney.com/news/options-for-holding-title-to-real-property/

Ideally she shouldn't have to declare bankruptcy for debt that isn't hers, but marriage creates all kinds of financial pitfalls to go along with the tax perks.

There isn't really a grey area like that. Putting aside community property states (most states are not community property), nobody ever has to declare bankruptcy for debt that isn't theirs. Sometimes people feel that's what they're doing, because they're filing for bankruptcy over their child's or spouse's or whoever's debt that they cosigned on... but cosigning on a debt makes it your debt.

And there are hugely unethical debt collectors who call grieving spouses and basically convince them that they are liable for their dead spouse's debt, and then "help" them set up manageable payment plans. I mention this scam because YOU CANNOT INHERIT YOUR SPOUSE'S DEBT but unfortunately, if your spouse dies and you then agree to pay a debt collector money that your spouse owed, you just got suckered into an actual enforceable contract and are now on the hook for that debt. (If that happens to you or anyone you know, contact a debtor's rights lawyer--they may be able to help).

But basically, if you didn't cosign on someone's loan (or lease or whatever other contract under which they owed money), and you didn't agree to a payment plan with someone's creditor, you are not liable for that debt. If someone's harassing you to pay it, what you need is not a bankruptcy lawyer but a debtor's rights lawyer (sometimes called consumer's rights lawyer).

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #732 on: September 07, 2016, 03:29:30 PM »
RE:  YOU CANNOT INHERIT YOUR SPOUSE'S DEBT

This is true, but prior to distribution to the wife, the will must pay off all debtors.  Leaving very little $ to transfer to the spouse.  That is the true problem here...  (assets protected by beneficiary designations are exempt)

In addition, many cosigned debts are considered due in full upon death of one of the cosignees...and trigger a claim against the estate for the full amount.  This has been a challenge for student loans, for example, cosigned by an aged grandparent who then passes, creating poor credit history.

Unless the son agrees to sell the cars to help pay off the debt, it will likely be applied in full against the estate leaving the wife with very little.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #733 on: September 07, 2016, 03:41:22 PM »
RE:  YOU CANNOT INHERIT YOUR SPOUSE'S DEBT

This is true, but prior to distribution to the wife, the will must pay off all debtors.  Leaving very little $ to transfer to the spouse.  That is the true problem here...  (assets protected by beneficiary designations are exempt)

In addition, many cosigned debts are considered due in full upon death of one of the cosignees...and trigger a claim against the estate for the full amount.  This has been a challenge for student loans, for example, cosigned by an aged grandparent who then passes, creating poor credit history.

Unless the son agrees to sell the cars to help pay off the debt, it will likely be applied in full against the estate leaving the wife with very little.

Actually, the cars may be repossessed and sold before they go after the accounts in question.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #734 on: September 08, 2016, 09:52:22 AM »
Recently overheard: "Don't worry about your retirement. You'll be taken care of..."

My thought: Be very worried about your retirement and save accordingly. Who would take someone at their word - even family's word - that there would be a lump of money coming some day far off into the future? There are no guarantees.

All I could think of was a conversation 30 years into the future on someone's death bed that amounted to "sorry, we thought we had enough money to live like we did. Good luck with your own elder years with no substantial savings. I wish you could live like we did..."

No word on amounts, what their burn rate is and so forth.

Yeah, just trust me. "You'll be taken care of."

All I could think of was a few members of the extended family sparring over money and inheritances during my childhood.

It was like watching a British medieval period drama where allegiances are made and broken, favors bestowed upon one person and another ignored, lies and promises broken, etc.

And all over very modest amounts of money so a couple of relatives who never made much money of their own could spend freely for a short time.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #735 on: September 08, 2016, 11:16:34 AM »
Recently overheard: "Don't worry about your retirement. You'll be taken care of..."

My thought: Be very worried about your retirement and save accordingly. Who would take someone at their word - even family's word - that there would be a lump of money coming some day far off into the future? There are no guarantees.

All I could think of was a conversation 30 years into the future on someone's death bed that amounted to "sorry, we thought we had enough money to live like we did. Good luck with your own elder years with no substantial savings. I wish you could live like we did..."

No word on amounts, what their burn rate is and so forth.

Yeah, just trust me. "You'll be taken care of."

All I could think of was a few members of the extended family sparring over money and inheritances during my childhood.

It was like watching a British medieval period drama where allegiances are made and broken, favors bestowed upon one person and another ignored, lies and promises broken, etc.

And all over very modest amounts of money so a couple of relatives who never made much money of their own could spend freely for a short time.
This is a great post, great  for its imagery of the famly alignments and  its sheer truthfulness.

It is amazing what small amounts of money people will fight over.

An idea related to the "dont worry, I will leave you money for your old age" ida is the demand from potential inheritors to "give me my inheritence NOW".  This assumes that elderly parents will drop dead cleanly, never needing their assets for end of life care which is very expensive.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 11:18:54 AM by iris lily »

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #736 on: September 08, 2016, 12:25:03 PM »
Recently overheard: "Don't worry about your retirement. You'll be taken care of..."

My thought: Be very worried about your retirement and save accordingly. Who would take someone at their word - even family's word - that there would be a lump of money coming some day far off into the future? There are no guarantees.

All I could think of was a conversation 30 years into the future on someone's death bed that amounted to "sorry, we thought we had enough money to live like we did. Good luck with your own elder years with no substantial savings. I wish you could live like we did..."

No word on amounts, what their burn rate is and so forth.

Yeah, just trust me. "You'll be taken care of."

All I could think of was a few members of the extended family sparring over money and inheritances during my childhood.

It was like watching a British medieval period drama where allegiances are made and broken, favors bestowed upon one person and another ignored, lies and promises broken, etc.

And all over very modest amounts of money so a couple of relatives who never made much money of their own could spend freely for a short time.
This is a great post, great  for its imagery of the famly alignments and  its sheer truthfulness.

It is amazing what small amounts of money people will fight over.

An idea related to the "dont worry, I will leave you money for your old age" ida is the demand from potential inheritors to "give me my inheritence NOW".  This assumes that elderly parents will drop dead cleanly, never needing their assets for end of life care which is very expensive.

There actually used to be mechanisms for giving an inheritance "now", and in fact the regional economy, legal, and business structure depended on it. It's called a "dowry" system. It worked very well in an agrarian/guild/mercantile economy but not as well in an investment or knowledge economy.

The dowry system was the means by which young women got their share of their parents' assets. Since women in Europe and the Middle East were typically leaving their family home and moving elsewhere, possibly to another village or to another nomadic tribe, it eliminated the difficulty of tracking them down and distributing assets years later after the parents died. Typically this was not given in cash (medieval economies were cash poor) but in household goods, animals, land, furniture, or other assets. The remaining assets went to the sons who presumably continued to work in and build the family business until the father died. These sons obviously didn't get dowries from their own parents, however when they married they could generally expect a dowry from their wife's family. This dowry, when combined with the tools and personal assets the young man accumulated after finishing his education, would generally be enough to start up a very basic, minimalist household according to the prevailing socioeconomic standards of the families in question. But the new wife wouldn't be involved in future inheritance discussions and was essentially out of the picture except perhaps for small personal items like jewelry or clothing.

The dowry system worked because the kind of goods being given were things a young couple needed, wanted, and could use. They would generally live nearby (as opposed to far away) and were nearly always involved in the same kind of work as their parents. For peasants or servants who did not own the means of production, all they really needed was a few household goods and a hut or else servants' quarters to move into.

How inheritance worked back then varied depending on the region, the type of asset, and whether the husband or wife died first. Death did tend to be relatively quick and clean: medical technology just wasn't far enough along to keep people alive if they had something seriously wrong with them.

Source: "The Prospect Before Her", Olwen Hufton.

The dowry system started to break down during the Renaissance, which is when peasant life started to go seriously downhill due to human induced ecology change and a population explosion. The Industrial Revolution also messed up the neat, tidy class and income assumptions everybody had up until that time and shifted the economy to a currency based system which made dowries no longer viable for wage earners or small business owners. In a few of the Italian city-states, cash dowry expectations were so out of control that people passed sumptuary laws regulating them.

Source: "The Waning of the Middle Ages", Johan Huizinga.
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CheapskateWife

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #737 on: September 08, 2016, 12:44:42 PM »
This is fantastic Squeaker, I had always assumed (maybe incorrectly) that a dowry was an enticement offered to a prospective husband's family as payment for the "trouble" of taking on the family's "worthless girl child".  This perspective adds a new level of nuance to the transaction.

Now, back to the drama!

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #738 on: September 08, 2016, 01:15:53 PM »
I agree - I too assumed it had something to do with offloading a "worthless girl child". Great little history lesson. I love studying history.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #739 on: September 08, 2016, 01:40:50 PM »
This is fantastic Squeaker, I had always assumed (maybe incorrectly) that a dowry was an enticement offered to a prospective husband's family as payment for the "trouble" of taking on the family's "worthless girl child".  This perspective adds a new level of nuance to the transaction.

Now, back to the drama!

Truly worthless children were killed at birth.
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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #740 on: September 08, 2016, 03:23:41 PM »
I like the "girl childs" - I married one. She was a woman by then. One of the smartest things I ever did.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #741 on: September 08, 2016, 07:56:32 PM »
I agree - I too assumed it had something to do with offloading a "worthless girl child". Great little history lesson. I love studying history.

Nope, it was a form of early inheritance in which a woman received her share of her parents' estate when she married, as opposed to after the parents' death.

There were similar forms of early inheritance for second, third, and other superfluous sons: parents might purchase a military commission, a prelacy, an apprenticeship, stock in trade to start him out as a merchant. They might also educate him in some kind of income-earning profession that wasn't too embarrassing to the wealthier or titled branches of the family, although there were some restrictions in terms of what a respectable young man might be allowed to study. Like the daughters who got the use of their dowry assets earlier in their lifetime, non-eldest sons often received a lesser share of an estate overall, but they had the benefit of the money or opportunity while they were still young enough to build on it.
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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #742 on: September 08, 2016, 11:23:01 PM »

There actually used to be mechanisms for giving an inheritance "now", and in fact the regional economy, legal, and business structure depended on it. It's called a "dowry" system. It worked very well in an agrarian/guild/mercantile economy but not as well in an investment or knowledge economy.

The dowry system was the means by which young women got their share of their parents' assets. .........This dowry, when combined with the tools and personal assets the young man accumulated after finishing his education, would generally be enough to start up a very basic, minimalist household ........

Awesome...   

I think today's equivalent of a "Dowry" intended to set a young couple on the path to setting up a basic household would be....

...  a subsizided college education (by parents).....?

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #743 on: September 09, 2016, 08:04:00 AM »

There actually used to be mechanisms for giving an inheritance "now", and in fact the regional economy, legal, and business structure depended on it. It's called a "dowry" system. It worked very well in an agrarian/guild/mercantile economy but not as well in an investment or knowledge economy.

The dowry system was the means by which young women got their share of their parents' assets. .........This dowry, when combined with the tools and personal assets the young man accumulated after finishing his education, would generally be enough to start up a very basic, minimalist household ........

Awesome...   

I think today's equivalent of a "Dowry" intended to set a young couple on the path to setting up a basic household would be....

...  a subsizided college education (by parents).....?

- Subsidized higher education (in some families)
- Work experience in a family business
- Opportunity to buy into a family business at a greatly reduced rate
- Wedding shower (household goods)
- Overpriced fancy-pants wedding paid for by the bride's parents (which is what the dowry mutated into, in former British colonies)
- A vehicle
- Hand-me-down furniture, cookware, linens, and other things given to a young person for a dorm or a first apartment
- In rural families, a trailer or small house on the family land or in the family compound
- The invitation to take out a life insurance policy on an older family member (Irish Traveler tradition)
- Any other deliberate wealth transfer from the older generation to the younger
- Estate reduction gifts to the next generation in order to avoid estate taxes
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Sibley

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #744 on: September 09, 2016, 09:44:46 AM »
Squeaker, you're absolutely correct.

I do want to add however, in individual situations, there could be an element of "getting rid of an inconvenient child", though it was rarely that simple. Desire to look good to the neighbors by dedicating a child to the service of God (nuns/monks/priests), and sometimes said individual was mentally ill, and that sometimes involved payments. In general, truly unwanted children would be abandoned, killed, sold into slavery/bondage, etc. Options, criteria, and frequency would vary with the time and culture.

If you're thinking that humans aren't always very nice, you're correct.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #745 on: September 09, 2016, 11:50:32 AM »
Squeaker, you're absolutely correct.

I do want to add however, in individual situations, there could be an element of "getting rid of an inconvenient child", though it was rarely that simple. Desire to look good to the neighbors by dedicating a child to the service of God (nuns/monks/priests), and sometimes said individual was mentally ill, and that sometimes involved payments. In general, truly unwanted children would be abandoned, killed, sold into slavery/bondage, etc. Options, criteria, and frequency would vary with the time and culture.

If you're thinking that humans aren't always very nice, you're correct.

Humans are almost never nice unless it suits their interests.

Feeding, clothing, sheltering, and educating a child, and then setting him or her up for a decent start in life wasn't considered a "getting rid of" behavior until late in the 20th century. It was considered the absolute pinnacle of parenting.

Throughout most of human history, "getting rid of" behavior happened *before* the parent(s) made a sizable investment in the kid.

Unwanted babies were left to die of exposure throughout the Roman Republic and Empire, and were often strangled at birth elsewhere especially if the family already had too many mouths to feed. Sometimes an abandoned baby was picked up by speculators and raised/sold as a slave, but more often feral dogs got to them first. In times of famine, children were sometimes sold into slavery in order to feed the remaining family members. The children least able to contribute work to benefit the family were the first to be sold off. Young people who showed evidence of serious mental illness or developmental delay were generally relegated to "village idiot" status or alms-beggars in the streets, assuming they were not directed into prostitution or organized theft. Dumping the kid on the Church was sometimes an option, IF the dumped child was accompanied by a suitable financial gift. Children with normal or above-normal aptitude were sometimes trained as clerks or caregivers to the elderly. Less capable children were very likely to be used for menial or repetitive work, such as scrubbing floors or mucking out horse stalls. Defiant or hard to manage children, sadly, were more likely to be whipped or hit until they either complied or died.
I squeak softly, but carry a big schtick.

former player

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #746 on: September 09, 2016, 12:23:23 PM »
And let's be clear: this is not just confined to history but is going on today on a big scale.  Newborn girls in many parts of the world have much less chance of making it through childhood than boys, sometimes through neglect, sometimes through more specific action.  Older girls are sold to people traffickers and forced to become prostitutes in first world countries.  Child murder and child slavery are modern day evils, not just historical ones.
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Capsu78

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #747 on: September 09, 2016, 12:37:18 PM »

Feeding, clothing, sheltering, and educating a child, and then setting him or her up for a decent start in life wasn't considered a "getting rid of" behavior until late in the 20th century. It was considered the absolute pinnacle of parenting.

Throughout most of human history, "getting rid of" behavior happened *before* the parent(s) made a sizable investment in the kid.

Unwanted babies were left to die of exposure throughout the Roman Republic and Empire, and were often strangled at birth elsewhere especially if the family already had too many mouths to feed. Sometimes an abandoned baby was picked up by speculators and raised/sold as a slave, but more often feral dogs got to them first. In times of famine, children were sometimes sold into slavery in order to feed the remaining family members. The children least able to contribute work to benefit the family were the first to be sold off. Young people who showed evidence of serious mental illness or developmental delay were generally relegated to "village idiot" status or alms-beggars in the streets, assuming they were not directed into prostitution or organized theft. Dumping the kid on the Church was sometimes an option, IF the dumped child was accompanied by a suitable financial gift. Children with normal or above-normal aptitude were sometimes trained as clerks or caregivers to the elderly. Less capable children were very likely to be used for menial or repetitive work, such as scrubbing floors or mucking out horse stalls. Defiant or hard to manage children, sadly, were more likely to be whipped or hit until they either complied or died.
[/quote]

I was voted "Most likely to be sold into slavery first by Mom"  at our family reunion. :-)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 02:29:45 PM by Capsu78 »

Making Cookies

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #748 on: September 09, 2016, 02:11:15 PM »
And let's be clear: this is not just confined to history but is going on today on a big scale.  Newborn girls in many parts of the world have much less chance of making it through childhood than boys, sometimes through neglect, sometimes through more specific action.  Older girls are sold to people traffickers and forced to become prostitutes in first world countries.  Child murder and child slavery are modern day evils, not just historical ones.

Hysterectomies and vasectomies for everyone! SERIOUSLY! Ought to be easier and encouraged to anyone that isn't dedicated to raising and loving their children. The world is plenty full. I witnessed another tired mother berating and impatient with her two little children last night. They were unhappy. She was unhappy.

We had kids but we never behaved like that!

firelight

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #749 on: September 09, 2016, 05:20:58 PM »
And let's be clear: this is not just confined to history but is going on today on a big scale.  Newborn girls in many parts of the world have much less chance of making it through childhood than boys, sometimes through neglect, sometimes through more specific action.  Older girls are sold to people traffickers and forced to become prostitutes in first world countries.  Child murder and child slavery are modern day evils, not just historical ones.

Hysterectomies and vasectomies for everyone! SERIOUSLY! Ought to be easier and encouraged to anyone that isn't dedicated to raising and loving their children. The world is plenty full. I witnessed another tired mother berating and impatient with her two little children last night. They were unhappy. She was unhappy.

We had kids but we never behaved like that!
The problem is rampant in some parts of the world mainly for girl kids. Because the parents want a boy baby but can't afford to feed all the girl kids that are born before the boy kid is possibly born, they end up killing the girl kids or leaving them as orphans or selling them. In some rural areas, girl kids survived if they were the oldest (so there is atleast one kid for the parents in case they don't have any more despite trying - also useful to take care of younger siblings because girls were trained in household chores) or if they were the last kid after a slew of boys.  As people are getting more educated, this is going down but even now, dowry is a big issue and people try to avoid girl children as a result.


People prefer boy kids because they will continue the family name and bring in wealth through marriage while girl kids will take away wealth from the parental home. As a result the sex ratio in some parts of Asia is pathetic (700 girls for 1000 boys). This in turn leads to less exposure to women in daily life for guys leading to not knowing how to act in a normal relationship (or friendship) with a woman which sadly leads to more crime and violence against women.

This is a worrying trend and the future is not going to be pretty when the 1000 boys grow up and want to get married and don't have 1000 women to get married to.