Author Topic: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.  (Read 524135 times)

AMandM

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 622
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1400 on: September 21, 2018, 12:33:27 PM »
From the micro-perspective, leaving your estate to grand children ensures that assets go through probate every 50-60 years instead of every 25.

The transfers would happen every time a generation dies, regardless of who the inheritance goes to.


If assets go to grandchildren, the time interval between testator's death and heir's death is roughly twice as long as if the assets go to the testator's children.

mm1970

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5875
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1401 on: September 21, 2018, 01:02:45 PM »
From the micro-perspective, leaving your estate to grand children ensures that assets go through probate every 50-60 years instead of every 25.

The transfers would happen every time a generation dies, regardless of who the inheritance goes to.


If assets go to grandchildren, the time interval between testator's death and heir's death is roughly twice as long as if the assets go to the testator's children.

Hmm...I need to think about his a bit.  Way above early in this thread, I mentioned my grandfather's widow.  His will left $ to his children, but not until she died.  And she was still kicking.  She died at 98.  I think 18 years after my grandfather died.  In any event, as my  mother and aunt pre-deceased her, their inheritance went to their children.

I suppose it matters how much $ we are talking about, also.  I think I ended up with ...  $15k?  Can't remember.  About that.

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4342
  • Age: 10
  • Location: USA
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1402 on: September 21, 2018, 01:30:55 PM »
It's a complicated situation.  The idea is for the daughter to "rent to own" so that she can continue to live in the house that currently owns, but cannot afford, without sending that money out of the family.  Sending it to the other children directly would a) probably breed resentment on the part of the daughter, having to pay her siblings to live in her own house when her siblings didn't do a damn thing for her, and b) probably cause the other siblings to re-evaluate their financial expectations about their parents passing on, because it would effectively be kind of like getting your inheritance early.  They would get "rent" now but then nothing upon their passing, and the unstable daughter would get a free house out of the deal.
it's not complicated at all; the parents are going to subsidize one daughter so she can maintain a lifestyle she can not afford. The parents hope this will be corrected with the inheritance when they die. This will not happen. When it is time for the inheritance there will be a lot of drama and the end result of all of it will be that the one daughter will have gotten a bigger share of the inheritance then the other siblings. The family will probably splinter because of this with siblings no longer speaking to each other.
It is their money and the parents can do with it whatever they want. But these will be the ultimate consequences if they chose this particular path. If they are fine with that, great. If not, they might better look for another solution.
Yeah for whatever reason people are weird about housing, and it somehow doesn't count as a subsidy to which you're supposed to assign a dollar value.

shelivesthedream

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3894
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1403 on: September 21, 2018, 01:34:40 PM »
From the micro-perspective, leaving your estate to grand children ensures that assets go through probate every 50-60 years instead of every 25.

The transfers would happen every time a generation dies, regardless of who the inheritance goes to.


If assets go to grandchildren, the time interval between testator's death and heir's death is roughly twice as long as if the assets go to the testator's children.

Consider, though, that we're talking about a whole train of generations. So gen1 passes on to gen3 rather than gen2. Then gen 3 to gen 5, etc. So it looks like there's half as much probating and so on. But gen2 passes on to gen 4 who passes on to gen6... Any individual pot of money gets passed on half as often but the pot is effectively halved because it's split over two generational sequences.

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1404 on: September 21, 2018, 01:55:30 PM »
This longer time interval should allow for assets to remain invested in higher-risk, higher return assets as well.

I'm a red panda

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7124
  • Location: United States
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1405 on: September 21, 2018, 01:59:38 PM »
From the micro-perspective, leaving your estate to grand children ensures that assets go through probate every 50-60 years instead of every 25.

The transfers would happen every time a generation dies, regardless of who the inheritance goes to.


If assets go to grandchildren, the time interval between testator's death and heir's death is roughly twice as long as if the assets go to the testator's children.

Consider, though, that we're talking about a whole train of generations. So gen1 passes on to gen3 rather than gen2. Then gen 3 to gen 5, etc. So it looks like there's half as much probating and so on. But gen2 passes on to gen 4 who passes on to gen6... Any individual pot of money gets passed on half as often but the pot is effectively halved because it's split over two generational sequences.

I think one also assumes though that the "family money" is large, and odd number generations are getting that- many millions.  Whereas the individual money is smaller, maybe only a few hundred thousand. 


People should remember they have no entitlement to an inheritance. Anything you get is a bonus. The owners of said money can blow it away however they want while alive, and will it all to their dog if they feel like it when they die.

iris lily

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2949
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1406 on: September 21, 2018, 06:28:27 PM »
It's a complicated situation.  The idea is for the daughter to "rent to own" so that she can continue to live in the house that currently owns, but cannot afford, without sending that money out of the family.  Sending it to the other children directly would a) probably breed resentment on the part of the daughter, having to pay her siblings to live in her own house when her siblings didn't do a damn thing for her, and b) probably cause the other siblings to re-evaluate their financial expectations about their parents passing on, because it would effectively be kind of like getting your inheritance early.  They would get "rent" now but then nothing upon their passing, and the unstable daughter would get a free house out of the deal.
it's not complicated at all; the parents are going to subsidize one daughter so she can maintain a lifestyle she can not afford. The parents hope this will be corrected with the inheritance when they die. This will not happen. When it is time for the inheritance there will be a lot of drama and the end result of all of it will be that the one daughter will have gotten a bigger share of the inheritance then the other siblings. The family will probably splinter because of this with siblings no longer speaking to each other.
It is their money and the parents can do with it whatever they want. But these will be the ultimate consequences if they chose this particular path. If they are fine with that, great. If not, they might better look for another solution.
This is right on the money.

plainjane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1620
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1407 on: September 22, 2018, 04:26:54 AM »
From the micro-perspective, leaving your estate to grand children ensures that assets go through probate every 50-60 years instead of every 25.

The transfers would happen every time a generation dies, regardless of who the inheritance goes to.
If assets go to grandchildren, the time interval between testator's death and heir's death is roughly twice as long as if the assets go to the testator's children.

This is similar to what our lawyer recommended. I was trying to decide whether to give our estate to siblings or in trust for nieces and nephews. Since all the siblings are fine economically that just means they'd be taxed at a higher rate. So it is better to do the next generation who have lower income and assets.

GreenEggs

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 547
  • Location: Here & There
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1408 on: September 22, 2018, 08:55:13 AM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.


I think individual circumstances, like total amounts involved and the ages of the various generations have an impact on how these decisions "should" be made. 


My grandparents lived to be quite old (mid 90's), and left everything to their 2 sons who were in their mid to late 70's.  It was the standard simple way to pass their assets, but really didn't benefit anyone that was young enough to enjoy, or even handle the finances, at that point.  Sadly, interest rates were so low dad just cashed the check & piled it all in a safe...it would have tripled if he'd known about VTSAX. 


There's definitely a valid argument about not leaving it to those who are too young, but also to those that are too old.  I doubt many wills & trusts are adequately engineered to deal with the ages of the beneficiaries, because it's just too complicated to deal with for most people.




 

sherr

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Age: 33
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1409 on: September 22, 2018, 11:59:20 AM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.

Really? The TCJA doubled the exemptions from $5.5MM per taxpayer ($11MM per couple) to $11MM ($22MM per couple). Is estate tax really something that anyone on this forum would ever have to worry about?

shelivesthedream

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3894
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1410 on: September 22, 2018, 02:21:49 PM »
I don't know what it's like overseas (and am not sure I understand it here!) but my parents are in their sixties and diligently over-saved before retiring. I believe they are planning to write something like a writ of disbursement so that when my grandmother dies, their portion of the inheritance passes straight to me and my brother. As I understand it, that means that for tax purposes it's as if my grandmother willed it straight to us. They don't need the money and we're in our twenties so even if it's all spent way down on end of life care, even a few thousand would make a difference to our lives while my parents wouldn't even notice it. Assuming the age situation is similar when my parents go, I would probably do the same.

Dicey

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8529
  • Age: 60
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1411 on: September 22, 2018, 04:51:02 PM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.


I think individual circumstances, like total amounts involved and the ages of the various generations have an impact on how these decisions "should" be made. 


My grandparents lived to be quite old (mid 90's), and left everything to their 2 sons who were in their mid to late 70's.  It was the standard simple way to pass their assets, but really didn't benefit anyone that was young enough to enjoy, or even handle the finances, at that point.  Sadly, interest rates were so low dad just cashed the check & piled it all in a safe...it would have tripled if he'd known about VTSAX. 


There's definitely a valid argument about not leaving it to those who are too young, but also to those that are too old.  I doubt many wills & trusts are adequately engineered to deal with the ages of the beneficiaries, because it's just too complicated to deal with for most people.
When my grandfather died in the late eighties, he gave my family $50k - $14k to my parents and $6k to each of the six kids. The rest of his estate was divided evenly among his three elderly sisters. I thought this was fantastic. Each grandkid got a boost (I added it to my DP fund and finally pulled the trigger on my first house). More importantly, he gave his sisters financial security in their old age. What an amazing legacy!

ADD: That would be $105k in inflation adjusted dollars. Still a nice gift.

RetiredAt63

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9363
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1412 on: September 22, 2018, 05:21:24 PM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.

Really? The TCJA doubled the exemptions from $5.5MM per taxpayer ($11MM per couple) to $11MM ($22MM per couple). Is estate tax really something that anyone on this forum would ever have to worry about?

Farmers?   They are usually land rich and cash poor.

SwordGuy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4367
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
    • Flipping Fayetteville
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1413 on: September 22, 2018, 08:29:54 PM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.

Really? The TCJA doubled the exemptions from $5.5MM per taxpayer ($11MM per couple) to $11MM ($22MM per couple). Is estate tax really something that anyone on this forum would ever have to worry about?

Farmers?   They are usually land rich and cash poor.

Then don't include actively farmed land in the estate tax and include everyone else.

GreenEggs

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 547
  • Location: Here & There
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1414 on: September 22, 2018, 10:06:16 PM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.

Really? The TCJA doubled the exemptions from $5.5MM per taxpayer ($11MM per couple) to $11MM ($22MM per couple). Is estate tax really something that anyone on this forum would ever have to worry about?




Just because the majority of the members on this forum are trying to retire young doen't mean all of our parents and/or grandparents understood the concept.  It seems that a lot of people who build businesses enjoy "being the boss" and enjoy watching the money flow in.  Instead of saving 70% of their salaries and investing it in index funds they invested in their own companies.  Their investments often beat the S&P 500 each and every year (but it wasn't passive).  When you hear stories about successful companies you only hear about the ones that got big, but there are millions of companies that are very successful that never even wanted to grow beyond a handful of employees and a single location.  The owner made plenty for himself and didn't want the headaches of going after more.  I've met plenty of small business owners that told me that they were happier and made more money when they had fewer employees. 










Think about high earners that continue(d) to work into their 60's or 70's.  Look how long this bull market has run.  $5M in VTSAX since 2009 would probably be $15-20M now. 

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4342
  • Age: 10
  • Location: USA
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1415 on: September 23, 2018, 11:55:53 AM »
The estate tax is a misnomer, it's really a poor stewardship tax. Twenty minutes on the internet or the estate section of any bookstore or library will make it clear that it's totally avoidable.

Members of Congress know this, they either avoid the tax themselves or have friends who do. Nevertheless, it's used as a political signal by the right (we're with farmers!) and the left (down with the rich!) alike because it gets the non-decamillionaires riled up.

Goldielocks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5746
  • Location: BC
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1416 on: September 23, 2018, 06:52:31 PM »
Canada has zero gift and estate taxes.


You are deemed to dispose of property at Fair Market Value when you die, and your estate pays any taxes due before your heirs get the remainder.   Your heirs then inherit at the current FMV, reducing their tax burden when they sell.   If the property (e.g., a cottage) is transferred and not sold, then taxes are paid from the remainder of the estate.

Exceptions:
Rolling over registered retirement investments or joint property to your spouse.
Farm property to family (son/ grandchildren)
Fish Property to family (family fishing boat and licensing).
Income attribution rules apply to gifts made to spouse / minor children while you are living.

It is a very clean system that allows the government to get any capital gains taxes before too many decades pass, and allows the heirs a clean ownership of the asset, and especially avoids any arbitrary estate tax.
 
Loopholes are reduced, although incoporation and company trusts are still options for loopholes, they are also taxed eventually in other ways. 

Catbert

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1557
  • Location: Southern California
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1417 on: September 27, 2018, 12:37:25 PM »
I don't know what it's like overseas (and am not sure I understand it here!) but my parents are in their sixties and diligently over-saved before retiring. I believe they are planning to write something like a writ of disbursement so that when my grandmother dies, their portion of the inheritance passes straight to me and my brother. As I understand it, that means that for tax purposes it's as if my grandmother willed it straight to us. They don't need the money and we're in our twenties so even if it's all spent way down on end of life care, even a few thousand would make a difference to our lives while my parents wouldn't even notice it. Assuming the age situation is similar when my parents go, I would probably do the same.

You can do that here in the US also although I *think* the disclaimer doesn't get to pick who it goes to.  It goes to whomever the original person designated as a backup.  As a practical matter generally if the parents disclaimed their children would be the back up.

PhilB

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 474
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1418 on: September 30, 2018, 03:48:29 AM »
I just had an interesting phone call that made me think of this thread.  My parents are in their eighties, moved house 3 years ago and haven't done anything with their old house (value about 125k).  When I called them this morning, my Dad told me he wanted to gift the old house to my SIL so she can rent it out - her income is low enough she would pay little or no tax on the rental income, whereas he would pay 40% if he did it.  SIL is freaked by this and worried it will destroy the family unless my wife and I get an equal gift.  She has relatives no longer talking to each other because their parents decided their inheritance would go straight to the grandkids as the kids didn't need it - but they have different numbers of grandkids so everyone is bitching about how it should be split.

My brother and SIL live nearby and do a huge amount for them - including doing up the old house to get it fit to sell / rent.  I feel guilty that we aren't able to do anything much for them as we live 3 hours away and have young kids.  We are also much better off than they are and are FIREing in less than 4 weeks.  I said of course he should give the house to SIL as they totally deserve it.  After the call ended my wife made me contact him again to make sure he knew that she was completely happy with it too.  My only problem now is feeling guilty about the fact that I feel I can now use this as an excuse to stop feeling so guilty..,

Dicey

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8529
  • Age: 60
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1419 on: September 30, 2018, 08:40:16 AM »
^Love this!^

iris lily

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2949
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1420 on: September 30, 2018, 09:49:03 AM »
PhilB is a prince amoung men!

okits

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7620
  • Location: Canada
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1421 on: September 30, 2018, 06:55:59 PM »
@PhilB - once you are FIREd make a bigger effort to be present for your parents.  Even with young kids, three hours isn't so bad if you stay overnight if neither you nor your spouse has to work a job.  This will be better than feeling guilty and will help your parents, brother, and SIL, too.

Good for you and your wife, recognizing the value of the caregiving done by your brother and SIL.  And congratulations on your upcoming FIRE!

PhilB

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 474
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1422 on: October 02, 2018, 03:41:05 AM »
PhilB is a prince amoung men!
Aw shucks...
@okits -I do indeed intend to visit much more often post FIRE.

Sugaree

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 151
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1423 on: October 13, 2018, 02:18:07 PM »
I got one for you.  When my grandmother died 15-ish years ago, the only thing I inherited was a ring.  I'm not really a jewelry type of girl, especially yellow gold, but I've loved this one since I was a kid.  When I divorced my first husband I gave it to my parents to put in their safe deposit box.  Apparently, sometime last week my uncle called my mom and told her that ring belonged to his late second wife and my grandmother had it to keep the third wife from getting it.  It's worth noting that he and the third wife didn't split up until after my grandparents were both gone.  I suspect that he eants to give it to wife-to-be #4 as an engagement ring.  Well, he said jump and my mom asked how high.  She shipped it off without saying a word to me.  I probably wouldn't have found out until I asked for it back except that she shipped it into the middle of a damn hurricane.  It's now "lost" and she can't find the tracking number.  We had a screaming blowout this morning about how even if it gets sent back here that she'll turn it over to my uncle.  Fun times.

ditheca

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 191
  • Age: 35
  • Location: ST GEORGE, UT
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1424 on: October 15, 2018, 12:48:07 AM »
We had a screaming blowout this morning about how even if it gets sent back here that she'll turn it over to my uncle.

Stealing from family doesn't make it legal.

Mother sold my Nintendo and all the games while I was away at college.  Still bitter.  Did not file a police report :)

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1425 on: October 15, 2018, 07:14:25 AM »
Meanwhile, my mom is keeping my bedroom exactly the way it was in 2005.

I wouldn't mind having some of that stuff! :-)

saguaro

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1426 on: October 15, 2018, 09:29:16 AM »
I got one for you.  When my grandmother died 15-ish years ago, the only thing I inherited was a ring.  I'm not really a jewelry type of girl, especially yellow gold, but I've loved this one since I was a kid.  When I divorced my first husband I gave it to my parents to put in their safe deposit box.  Apparently, sometime last week my uncle called my mom and told her that ring belonged to his late second wife and my grandmother had it to keep the third wife from getting it.  It's worth noting that he and the third wife didn't split up until after my grandparents were both gone.  I suspect that he eants to give it to wife-to-be #4 as an engagement ring.  Well, he said jump and my mom asked how high.  She shipped it off without saying a word to me.  I probably wouldn't have found out until I asked for it back except that she shipped it into the middle of a damn hurricane.  It's now "lost" and she can't find the tracking number.  We had a screaming blowout this morning about how even if it gets sent back here that she'll turn it over to my uncle.  Fun times.

Wow, that really sucks that you trusted your parents to keep it for you and then your mom caves in to your uncle.

Might be cold comfort, but if the ring doesn't turn up then uncle is out of luck in getting his "engagement" ring.  Seems sort of karmic considering the tale he spun to your mom.  Like the universe decided, (almost literally since there was a hurricane) that if you weren't going to get the ring then no one would   Still, it's the one thing you really wanted from your grandmother and it hurts not to get it, whatever it's fate - uncle or lost in shipping. 

My younger sister is going through something like this.  She entrusted middle sister, who is the executor of my parents' estate and the one mentioned above thread over delaying the house cleanout and sale, with two figurines that middle sister was going to send.  Parents okayed her getting one of them prior to their deaths.   Seems the figurines have suddenly "disappeared" probably somewhere in middle sister's home but younger sister can't get a straight answer on the sudden disappearance.   Turns out there's been some issues / drama (long story and I am staying out of it) between the two sisters, that looks to be behind this.  But younger sister really wants those two items, it's the only two things she wants, she doesn't care about anything else so she's pretty upset that they are unaccounted for.   
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 09:38:16 AM by saguaro »

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1427 on: October 17, 2018, 11:37:43 AM »
I realize you're leaving a lot out, but the inability to compromise or accept anything in place of those two very special figures is a sign of someone who's causing drama rather than seeking to preserve the family through it.

Sugaree

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 151
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1428 on: October 17, 2018, 12:23:13 PM »
Sorry, but allowing family to walk all over me just because they're family doesn't fly with me.  Especially when said family members only come around when they want something.

SwordGuy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4367
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
    • Flipping Fayetteville
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1429 on: October 17, 2018, 04:34:32 PM »
I got one for you.  When my grandmother died 15-ish years ago, the only thing I inherited was a ring.  I'm not really a jewelry type of girl, especially yellow gold, but I've loved this one since I was a kid.  When I divorced my first husband I gave it to my parents to put in their safe deposit box.  Apparently, sometime last week my uncle called my mom and told her that ring belonged to his late second wife and my grandmother had it to keep the third wife from getting it.  It's worth noting that he and the third wife didn't split up until after my grandparents were both gone.  I suspect that he eants to give it to wife-to-be #4 as an engagement ring.  Well, he said jump and my mom asked how high.  She shipped it off without saying a word to me.  I probably wouldn't have found out until I asked for it back except that she shipped it into the middle of a damn hurricane.  It's now "lost" and she can't find the tracking number.  We had a screaming blowout this morning about how even if it gets sent back here that she'll turn it over to my uncle.  Fun times.


You think that's bad?

My dad went into the hospital.  While he was there my mom took his cat to the vet and had it killed.

She did not enjoy the conversation when she told me what she had done.

rpr

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 659
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1430 on: October 17, 2018, 05:26:56 PM »

You think that's bad?

My dad went into the hospital.  While he was there my mom took his cat to the vet and had it killed.

She did not enjoy the conversation when she told me what she had done.

Just, wow !!! And so :(

Sugaree

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 151
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1431 on: October 17, 2018, 06:11:12 PM »
That is absolutely scorched earth divorce worthy behavior.  You don't mess with my animals.

saguaro

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1432 on: October 17, 2018, 09:28:44 PM »
I realize you're leaving a lot out, but the inability to compromise or accept anything in place of those two very special figures is a sign of someone who's causing drama rather than seeking to preserve the family through it.

Summary on this was youngest sister asked for them and we all agreed she should have them.  Middle sister promised to send them to her.   A conflict developed between them that was not related to estate matters, it was in fact dealing with a personal situation that youngest sister was going through, which is all I can say about that.  After this conflict developed, the figurines have disappeared and middle sister claims to not know where they are, which is doubtful given the timing.  So a matter of being promised something and no follow through by the person who was going to send it.   Youngest sister is hurt by this and rightfully so. 

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2024
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1433 on: October 17, 2018, 09:53:51 PM »
That is absolutely scorched earth divorce worthy behavior.  You don't mess with my animals.

Indeed. Last time something messed with my chickens, I turned into John Wick with tits. As in, I got out a jo staff and went medieval.

I can't imagine what I'd do to anyone who threatened my Venomous Spaz Beast. It wouldn't be pretty.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 08:42:48 AM by TheGrimSqueaker »

sherr

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Age: 33
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1434 on: October 18, 2018, 06:46:38 AM »

You think that's bad?

My dad went into the hospital.  While he was there my mom took his cat to the vet and had it killed.

She did not enjoy the conversation when she told me what she had done.

Just, wow !!! And so :(

Yeah no kidding, that would be an instant "get out of my life forever, Mom" conversation if it happened to me. The amount of abject cruelty on display, both to the dad and the cat, cannot be excused no matter what the context of the situation was.

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1435 on: October 18, 2018, 07:21:07 AM »
I love my wife. I don't love caring for the cat that came along with her into the marriage. And despite all that frustration, I do think the mom made a poor choice with this cat. You guys are totally right to be piling on.

TomTX

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3068
  • Location: Texas
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1436 on: October 20, 2018, 11:31:17 AM »
That is absolutely scorched earth divorce worthy behavior.  You don't mess with my animals.

Indeed. Last time something messed with my chickens, I turned into John Wick with tits. As in, I got out a jo staff and went medieval.

I can't imagine what I'd do to anyone who threatened my Venomous Spaz Beast. It wouldn't be pretty.

I'd pay to see that movie.

ender

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4306
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1437 on: October 20, 2018, 02:46:39 PM »
Just because the majority of the members on this forum are trying to retire young doen't mean all of our parents and/or grandparents understood the concept.  It seems that a lot of people who build businesses enjoy "being the boss" and enjoy watching the money flow in.  Instead of saving 70% of their salaries and investing it in index funds they invested in their own companies.  Their investments often beat the S&P 500 each and every year (but it wasn't passive).  When you hear stories about successful companies you only hear about the ones that got big, but there are millions of companies that are very successful that never even wanted to grow beyond a handful of employees and a single location.  The owner made plenty for himself and didn't want the headaches of going after more.  I've met plenty of small business owners that told me that they were happier and made more money when they had fewer employees. 


Yup. We on this forum sometimes forget it's reasonably common for people to be really old and have huge sums of money (as compared with 40 and retired). I have extended family like this, all of them are in their 80s and all of them were wildly successful businessmen for nearly 50 years.

I can't imagine the drama that might happen in their families whenever they die. I can only imagine the possibilities for drama...

onlykelsey

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1438 on: October 22, 2018, 01:37:50 PM »
Woman was anticipating bankruptcy proceedings due to a bad business deal.  She became aware that MIL was planning to leave her a decent sum of money, and didn't want to lose potential inheritance (which wasn't enough to keep the business deal from imploding) to the bank, so MIL's will was rewritten to leave the money to the grown grandkids, instead, with the unwritten agreement that the money would be gifted to their mother after bankruptcy to help her get back on her feet (she did lose most of her assets, including her house).  Indeed, MIL ended up passing in the midst of the bankruptcy, but the inheritance went safely to the grandkids instead of being hoovered up by the bank.

Two of the four kids reneged on the deal, and spent the money frivolously while their mother suffered financial and personal hardship.  Mother subsequently has regained her footing, at least somewhat, and plans to make up the difference in her own will.  Of course, that's without regard to inflation or lost opportunity cost over a period of decades (at least, I hope so), so the selfish kids come out ahead financially in either case.

I mean, I guess the kids are selfish, but I read the first paragraph assuming you were calling out the mother.  What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2024
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1439 on: October 22, 2018, 02:41:38 PM »
Woman was anticipating bankruptcy proceedings due to a bad business deal.  She became aware that MIL was planning to leave her a decent sum of money, and didn't want to lose potential inheritance (which wasn't enough to keep the business deal from imploding) to the bank, so MIL's will was rewritten to leave the money to the grown grandkids, instead, with the unwritten agreement that the money would be gifted to their mother after bankruptcy to help her get back on her feet (she did lose most of her assets, including her house).  Indeed, MIL ended up passing in the midst of the bankruptcy, but the inheritance went safely to the grandkids instead of being hoovered up by the bank.

Two of the four kids reneged on the deal, and spent the money frivolously while their mother suffered financial and personal hardship.  Mother subsequently has regained her footing, at least somewhat, and plans to make up the difference in her own will.  Of course, that's without regard to inflation or lost opportunity cost over a period of decades (at least, I hope so), so the selfish kids come out ahead financially in either case.

I mean, I guess the kids are selfish, but I read the first paragraph assuming you were calling out the mother.  What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.

Any form of transferring assets to someone else to avoid a creditor is fraudulent. However, depending on location, the MIL could have put the inheritance out of reach of her daughter's creditors by using an irrevocable protection trust, a family trust, or several other means.

There's a fantastic book called "Beyond The Grave" that I'm using to ensure I provide for the VSB after my eventual demise. It's written by an estate lawyer who knows what he's talking about. Every single estate planning strategy has an up-side and a down-side.

Arbitrage

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1440 on: October 22, 2018, 04:55:32 PM »
Yep, sounded a bit sketchy to me as well.

barbaz

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 201
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1441 on: October 23, 2018, 01:27:23 PM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.

Prairie Stash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1575
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1442 on: October 23, 2018, 02:14:06 PM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.
Is the bar so low now that illegal activities are okay?

The point of throwing additional money is that she declared bankruptcy and had the means of making it right to the people that trusted her. Personally I think its fitting her kids kept the money, its learned behavior from bad parenting. Why would they give her money when she is unwilling to give money to people she owes?

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7332
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1443 on: October 23, 2018, 03:00:03 PM »
Why would they give her money when she is unwilling to give money to people she owes?

I thought that was the ironic point of the story.  Like man who finally leaves his wife only to find out that his girlfriend is secretly married and won't leave her husband, or the drunk who starts a bar fight and then gets his ass beat.  Let them reap what they sow.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3640
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1444 on: October 23, 2018, 03:13:00 PM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.

How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.


If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.

zolotiyeruki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2774
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1445 on: October 23, 2018, 04:00:56 PM »
How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.

If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.
I'm having the same trouble squaring that circle as well.  I have no issue with discussing the moral angle, but I fail to see how it's illegal.  If I stated my intention to donate money to a charity, and then found out that they were about to enter bankruptcy, would it also be illegal to change my mind and not donate to them?

GreenEggs

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 547
  • Location: Here & There
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1446 on: October 23, 2018, 07:50:48 PM »
The mother should have created a trust. 

Villanelle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2249
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1447 on: October 24, 2018, 01:58:48 AM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.


How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.


If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.

It's illegal because the will was changed entirely to avoid having that money available to creditors and yet the inheritance to the kids wasn't supposed to be real because they were supposed to funnel it back to mom.  They were expected to hold the money while mom's bankruptcy was finalized, then give it back, basically hiding it from creditors and the bankruptcy courts.  It would be like a man having a friend hide his collection of fancy watches or a woman hide expensive jewels during divorce proceedings, then getting them back when they were no longer subject to community property divisions.  The point is to mislead and hide assets, and thus it is fraudulent.

Changing the will to leave money to the kids instead of the mom isn't illegal.  Doing to for the purposes of hiding the money from courts and creditors, and with the expectation that it be returned when the danger of having it seized was over, almost certainly is illegal.  The money was still supposed to go to mom, just in a way that hid it from creditors. 

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1954
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1448 on: October 24, 2018, 07:49:32 AM »
Note: private creditors have a cost/benefit calculation they have to do when deciding whether to pursue this money. It is almost certainly criminal fraud. They will have to pay lawyers to attempt to recover the extra money that is being fraudulently withheld from the bankruptcy.

If it were the Federal Gov't, and the assets were being hidden so that mother could qualify for medicaid, you can bet they'd bring some serious fury on her.

onlykelsey

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1449 on: October 24, 2018, 08:19:56 AM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.


How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.


If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.

It's illegal because the will was changed entirely to avoid having that money available to creditors and yet the inheritance to the kids wasn't supposed to be real because they were supposed to funnel it back to mom.  They were expected to hold the money while mom's bankruptcy was finalized, then give it back, basically hiding it from creditors and the bankruptcy courts.  It would be like a man having a friend hide his collection of fancy watches or a woman hide expensive jewels during divorce proceedings, then getting them back when they were no longer subject to community property divisions.  The point is to mislead and hide assets, and thus it is fraudulent.

Changing the will to leave money to the kids instead of the mom isn't illegal.  Doing to for the purposes of hiding the money from courts and creditors, and with the expectation that it be returned when the danger of having it seized was over, almost certainly is illegal.  The money was still supposed to go to mom, just in a way that hid it from creditors.
Yeah, it sounds like constructive fraud to me, even if she did straight Chapter 7 bankruptcy.