Author Topic: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.  (Read 836347 times)

sherr

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1400 on: September 22, 2018, 11:59:20 AM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.

Really? The TCJA doubled the exemptions from $5.5MM per taxpayer ($11MM per couple) to $11MM ($22MM per couple). Is estate tax really something that anyone on this forum would ever have to worry about?

shelivesthedream

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1401 on: September 22, 2018, 02:21:49 PM »
I don't know what it's like overseas (and am not sure I understand it here!) but my parents are in their sixties and diligently over-saved before retiring. I believe they are planning to write something like a writ of disbursement so that when my grandmother dies, their portion of the inheritance passes straight to me and my brother. As I understand it, that means that for tax purposes it's as if my grandmother willed it straight to us. They don't need the money and we're in our twenties so even if it's all spent way down on end of life care, even a few thousand would make a difference to our lives while my parents wouldn't even notice it. Assuming the age situation is similar when my parents go, I would probably do the same.

Dicey

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1402 on: September 22, 2018, 04:51:02 PM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.


I think individual circumstances, like total amounts involved and the ages of the various generations have an impact on how these decisions "should" be made. 


My grandparents lived to be quite old (mid 90's), and left everything to their 2 sons who were in their mid to late 70's.  It was the standard simple way to pass their assets, but really didn't benefit anyone that was young enough to enjoy, or even handle the finances, at that point.  Sadly, interest rates were so low dad just cashed the check & piled it all in a safe...it would have tripled if he'd known about VTSAX. 


There's definitely a valid argument about not leaving it to those who are too young, but also to those that are too old.  I doubt many wills & trusts are adequately engineered to deal with the ages of the beneficiaries, because it's just too complicated to deal with for most people.
When my grandfather died in the late eighties, he gave my family $50k - $14k to my parents and $6k to each of the six kids. The rest of his estate was divided evenly among his three elderly sisters. I thought this was fantastic. Each grandkid got a boost (I added it to my DP fund and finally pulled the trigger on my first house). More importantly, he gave his sisters financial security in their old age. What an amazing legacy!

ADD: That would be $105k in inflation adjusted dollars. Still a nice gift.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1403 on: September 22, 2018, 05:21:24 PM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.

Really? The TCJA doubled the exemptions from $5.5MM per taxpayer ($11MM per couple) to $11MM ($22MM per couple). Is estate tax really something that anyone on this forum would ever have to worry about?

Farmers?   They are usually land rich and cash poor.

SwordGuy

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1404 on: September 22, 2018, 08:29:54 PM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.

Really? The TCJA doubled the exemptions from $5.5MM per taxpayer ($11MM per couple) to $11MM ($22MM per couple). Is estate tax really something that anyone on this forum would ever have to worry about?

Farmers?   They are usually land rich and cash poor.

Then don't include actively farmed land in the estate tax and include everyone else.

GreenEggs

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1405 on: September 22, 2018, 10:06:16 PM »
I'm not a Trump fan, but it is nice that the estate tax threshold has been raised.  No state estate tax here either.

Really? The TCJA doubled the exemptions from $5.5MM per taxpayer ($11MM per couple) to $11MM ($22MM per couple). Is estate tax really something that anyone on this forum would ever have to worry about?




Just because the majority of the members on this forum are trying to retire young doen't mean all of our parents and/or grandparents understood the concept.  It seems that a lot of people who build businesses enjoy "being the boss" and enjoy watching the money flow in.  Instead of saving 70% of their salaries and investing it in index funds they invested in their own companies.  Their investments often beat the S&P 500 each and every year (but it wasn't passive).  When you hear stories about successful companies you only hear about the ones that got big, but there are millions of companies that are very successful that never even wanted to grow beyond a handful of employees and a single location.  The owner made plenty for himself and didn't want the headaches of going after more.  I've met plenty of small business owners that told me that they were happier and made more money when they had fewer employees. 










Think about high earners that continue(d) to work into their 60's or 70's.  Look how long this bull market has run.  $5M in VTSAX since 2009 would probably be $15-20M now. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1406 on: September 23, 2018, 11:55:53 AM »
The estate tax is a misnomer, it's really a poor stewardship tax. Twenty minutes on the internet or the estate section of any bookstore or library will make it clear that it's totally avoidable.

Members of Congress know this, they either avoid the tax themselves or have friends who do. Nevertheless, it's used as a political signal by the right (we're with farmers!) and the left (down with the rich!) alike because it gets the non-decamillionaires riled up.

Goldielocks

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1407 on: September 23, 2018, 06:52:31 PM »
Canada has zero gift and estate taxes.


You are deemed to dispose of property at Fair Market Value when you die, and your estate pays any taxes due before your heirs get the remainder.   Your heirs then inherit at the current FMV, reducing their tax burden when they sell.   If the property (e.g., a cottage) is transferred and not sold, then taxes are paid from the remainder of the estate.

Exceptions:
Rolling over registered retirement investments or joint property to your spouse.
Farm property to family (son/ grandchildren)
Fish Property to family (family fishing boat and licensing).
Income attribution rules apply to gifts made to spouse / minor children while you are living.

It is a very clean system that allows the government to get any capital gains taxes before too many decades pass, and allows the heirs a clean ownership of the asset, and especially avoids any arbitrary estate tax.
 
Loopholes are reduced, although incoporation and company trusts are still options for loopholes, they are also taxed eventually in other ways. 

Catbert

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1408 on: September 27, 2018, 12:37:25 PM »
I don't know what it's like overseas (and am not sure I understand it here!) but my parents are in their sixties and diligently over-saved before retiring. I believe they are planning to write something like a writ of disbursement so that when my grandmother dies, their portion of the inheritance passes straight to me and my brother. As I understand it, that means that for tax purposes it's as if my grandmother willed it straight to us. They don't need the money and we're in our twenties so even if it's all spent way down on end of life care, even a few thousand would make a difference to our lives while my parents wouldn't even notice it. Assuming the age situation is similar when my parents go, I would probably do the same.

You can do that here in the US also although I *think* the disclaimer doesn't get to pick who it goes to.  It goes to whomever the original person designated as a backup.  As a practical matter generally if the parents disclaimed their children would be the back up.

PhilB

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1409 on: September 30, 2018, 03:48:29 AM »
I just had an interesting phone call that made me think of this thread.  My parents are in their eighties, moved house 3 years ago and haven't done anything with their old house (value about 125k).  When I called them this morning, my Dad told me he wanted to gift the old house to my SIL so she can rent it out - her income is low enough she would pay little or no tax on the rental income, whereas he would pay 40% if he did it.  SIL is freaked by this and worried it will destroy the family unless my wife and I get an equal gift.  She has relatives no longer talking to each other because their parents decided their inheritance would go straight to the grandkids as the kids didn't need it - but they have different numbers of grandkids so everyone is bitching about how it should be split.

My brother and SIL live nearby and do a huge amount for them - including doing up the old house to get it fit to sell / rent.  I feel guilty that we aren't able to do anything much for them as we live 3 hours away and have young kids.  We are also much better off than they are and are FIREing in less than 4 weeks.  I said of course he should give the house to SIL as they totally deserve it.  After the call ended my wife made me contact him again to make sure he knew that she was completely happy with it too.  My only problem now is feeling guilty about the fact that I feel I can now use this as an excuse to stop feeling so guilty..,

Dicey

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1410 on: September 30, 2018, 08:40:16 AM »
^Love this!^

iris lily

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1411 on: September 30, 2018, 09:49:03 AM »
PhilB is a prince amoung men!

okits

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1412 on: September 30, 2018, 06:55:59 PM »
@PhilB - once you are FIREd make a bigger effort to be present for your parents.  Even with young kids, three hours isn't so bad if you stay overnight if neither you nor your spouse has to work a job.  This will be better than feeling guilty and will help your parents, brother, and SIL, too.

Good for you and your wife, recognizing the value of the caregiving done by your brother and SIL.  And congratulations on your upcoming FIRE!

PhilB

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1413 on: October 02, 2018, 03:41:05 AM »
PhilB is a prince amoung men!
Aw shucks...
@okits -I do indeed intend to visit much more often post FIRE.

Sugaree

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1414 on: October 13, 2018, 02:18:07 PM »
I got one for you.  When my grandmother died 15-ish years ago, the only thing I inherited was a ring.  I'm not really a jewelry type of girl, especially yellow gold, but I've loved this one since I was a kid.  When I divorced my first husband I gave it to my parents to put in their safe deposit box.  Apparently, sometime last week my uncle called my mom and told her that ring belonged to his late second wife and my grandmother had it to keep the third wife from getting it.  It's worth noting that he and the third wife didn't split up until after my grandparents were both gone.  I suspect that he eants to give it to wife-to-be #4 as an engagement ring.  Well, he said jump and my mom asked how high.  She shipped it off without saying a word to me.  I probably wouldn't have found out until I asked for it back except that she shipped it into the middle of a damn hurricane.  It's now "lost" and she can't find the tracking number.  We had a screaming blowout this morning about how even if it gets sent back here that she'll turn it over to my uncle.  Fun times.

ditheca

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1415 on: October 15, 2018, 12:48:07 AM »
We had a screaming blowout this morning about how even if it gets sent back here that she'll turn it over to my uncle.

Stealing from family doesn't make it legal.

Mother sold my Nintendo and all the games while I was away at college.  Still bitter.  Did not file a police report :)

talltexan

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1416 on: October 15, 2018, 07:14:25 AM »
Meanwhile, my mom is keeping my bedroom exactly the way it was in 2005.

I wouldn't mind having some of that stuff! :-)

saguaro

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1417 on: October 15, 2018, 09:29:16 AM »
I got one for you.  When my grandmother died 15-ish years ago, the only thing I inherited was a ring.  I'm not really a jewelry type of girl, especially yellow gold, but I've loved this one since I was a kid.  When I divorced my first husband I gave it to my parents to put in their safe deposit box.  Apparently, sometime last week my uncle called my mom and told her that ring belonged to his late second wife and my grandmother had it to keep the third wife from getting it.  It's worth noting that he and the third wife didn't split up until after my grandparents were both gone.  I suspect that he eants to give it to wife-to-be #4 as an engagement ring.  Well, he said jump and my mom asked how high.  She shipped it off without saying a word to me.  I probably wouldn't have found out until I asked for it back except that she shipped it into the middle of a damn hurricane.  It's now "lost" and she can't find the tracking number.  We had a screaming blowout this morning about how even if it gets sent back here that she'll turn it over to my uncle.  Fun times.

Wow, that really sucks that you trusted your parents to keep it for you and then your mom caves in to your uncle.

Might be cold comfort, but if the ring doesn't turn up then uncle is out of luck in getting his "engagement" ring.  Seems sort of karmic considering the tale he spun to your mom.  Like the universe decided, (almost literally since there was a hurricane) that if you weren't going to get the ring then no one would   Still, it's the one thing you really wanted from your grandmother and it hurts not to get it, whatever it's fate - uncle or lost in shipping. 

My younger sister is going through something like this.  She entrusted middle sister, who is the executor of my parents' estate and the one mentioned above thread over delaying the house cleanout and sale, with two figurines that middle sister was going to send.  Parents okayed her getting one of them prior to their deaths.   Seems the figurines have suddenly "disappeared" probably somewhere in middle sister's home but younger sister can't get a straight answer on the sudden disappearance.   Turns out there's been some issues / drama (long story and I am staying out of it) between the two sisters, that looks to be behind this.  But younger sister really wants those two items, it's the only two things she wants, she doesn't care about anything else so she's pretty upset that they are unaccounted for.   
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 09:38:16 AM by saguaro »

talltexan

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1418 on: October 17, 2018, 11:37:43 AM »
I realize you're leaving a lot out, but the inability to compromise or accept anything in place of those two very special figures is a sign of someone who's causing drama rather than seeking to preserve the family through it.

Sugaree

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1419 on: October 17, 2018, 12:23:13 PM »
Sorry, but allowing family to walk all over me just because they're family doesn't fly with me.  Especially when said family members only come around when they want something.

SwordGuy

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1420 on: October 17, 2018, 04:34:32 PM »
I got one for you.  When my grandmother died 15-ish years ago, the only thing I inherited was a ring.  I'm not really a jewelry type of girl, especially yellow gold, but I've loved this one since I was a kid.  When I divorced my first husband I gave it to my parents to put in their safe deposit box.  Apparently, sometime last week my uncle called my mom and told her that ring belonged to his late second wife and my grandmother had it to keep the third wife from getting it.  It's worth noting that he and the third wife didn't split up until after my grandparents were both gone.  I suspect that he eants to give it to wife-to-be #4 as an engagement ring.  Well, he said jump and my mom asked how high.  She shipped it off without saying a word to me.  I probably wouldn't have found out until I asked for it back except that she shipped it into the middle of a damn hurricane.  It's now "lost" and she can't find the tracking number.  We had a screaming blowout this morning about how even if it gets sent back here that she'll turn it over to my uncle.  Fun times.


You think that's bad?

My dad went into the hospital.  While he was there my mom took his cat to the vet and had it killed.

She did not enjoy the conversation when she told me what she had done.

rpr

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1421 on: October 17, 2018, 05:26:56 PM »

You think that's bad?

My dad went into the hospital.  While he was there my mom took his cat to the vet and had it killed.

She did not enjoy the conversation when she told me what she had done.

Just, wow !!! And so :(

Sugaree

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1422 on: October 17, 2018, 06:11:12 PM »
That is absolutely scorched earth divorce worthy behavior.  You don't mess with my animals.

saguaro

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1423 on: October 17, 2018, 09:28:44 PM »
I realize you're leaving a lot out, but the inability to compromise or accept anything in place of those two very special figures is a sign of someone who's causing drama rather than seeking to preserve the family through it.

Summary on this was youngest sister asked for them and we all agreed she should have them.  Middle sister promised to send them to her.   A conflict developed between them that was not related to estate matters, it was in fact dealing with a personal situation that youngest sister was going through, which is all I can say about that.  After this conflict developed, the figurines have disappeared and middle sister claims to not know where they are, which is doubtful given the timing.  So a matter of being promised something and no follow through by the person who was going to send it.   Youngest sister is hurt by this and rightfully so. 

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1424 on: October 17, 2018, 09:53:51 PM »
That is absolutely scorched earth divorce worthy behavior.  You don't mess with my animals.

Indeed. Last time something messed with my chickens, I turned into John Wick with tits. As in, I got out a jo staff and went medieval.

I can't imagine what I'd do to anyone who threatened my Venomous Spaz Beast. It wouldn't be pretty.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 08:42:48 AM by TheGrimSqueaker »

sherr

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1425 on: October 18, 2018, 06:46:38 AM »

You think that's bad?

My dad went into the hospital.  While he was there my mom took his cat to the vet and had it killed.

She did not enjoy the conversation when she told me what she had done.

Just, wow !!! And so :(

Yeah no kidding, that would be an instant "get out of my life forever, Mom" conversation if it happened to me. The amount of abject cruelty on display, both to the dad and the cat, cannot be excused no matter what the context of the situation was.

talltexan

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1426 on: October 18, 2018, 07:21:07 AM »
I love my wife. I don't love caring for the cat that came along with her into the marriage. And despite all that frustration, I do think the mom made a poor choice with this cat. You guys are totally right to be piling on.

TomTX

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1427 on: October 20, 2018, 11:31:17 AM »
That is absolutely scorched earth divorce worthy behavior.  You don't mess with my animals.

Indeed. Last time something messed with my chickens, I turned into John Wick with tits. As in, I got out a jo staff and went medieval.

I can't imagine what I'd do to anyone who threatened my Venomous Spaz Beast. It wouldn't be pretty.

I'd pay to see that movie.

ender

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1428 on: October 20, 2018, 02:46:39 PM »
Just because the majority of the members on this forum are trying to retire young doen't mean all of our parents and/or grandparents understood the concept.  It seems that a lot of people who build businesses enjoy "being the boss" and enjoy watching the money flow in.  Instead of saving 70% of their salaries and investing it in index funds they invested in their own companies.  Their investments often beat the S&P 500 each and every year (but it wasn't passive).  When you hear stories about successful companies you only hear about the ones that got big, but there are millions of companies that are very successful that never even wanted to grow beyond a handful of employees and a single location.  The owner made plenty for himself and didn't want the headaches of going after more.  I've met plenty of small business owners that told me that they were happier and made more money when they had fewer employees. 


Yup. We on this forum sometimes forget it's reasonably common for people to be really old and have huge sums of money (as compared with 40 and retired). I have extended family like this, all of them are in their 80s and all of them were wildly successful businessmen for nearly 50 years.

I can't imagine the drama that might happen in their families whenever they die. I can only imagine the possibilities for drama...

onlykelsey

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1429 on: October 22, 2018, 01:37:50 PM »
Woman was anticipating bankruptcy proceedings due to a bad business deal.  She became aware that MIL was planning to leave her a decent sum of money, and didn't want to lose potential inheritance (which wasn't enough to keep the business deal from imploding) to the bank, so MIL's will was rewritten to leave the money to the grown grandkids, instead, with the unwritten agreement that the money would be gifted to their mother after bankruptcy to help her get back on her feet (she did lose most of her assets, including her house).  Indeed, MIL ended up passing in the midst of the bankruptcy, but the inheritance went safely to the grandkids instead of being hoovered up by the bank.

Two of the four kids reneged on the deal, and spent the money frivolously while their mother suffered financial and personal hardship.  Mother subsequently has regained her footing, at least somewhat, and plans to make up the difference in her own will.  Of course, that's without regard to inflation or lost opportunity cost over a period of decades (at least, I hope so), so the selfish kids come out ahead financially in either case.

I mean, I guess the kids are selfish, but I read the first paragraph assuming you were calling out the mother.  What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1430 on: October 22, 2018, 02:41:38 PM »
Woman was anticipating bankruptcy proceedings due to a bad business deal.  She became aware that MIL was planning to leave her a decent sum of money, and didn't want to lose potential inheritance (which wasn't enough to keep the business deal from imploding) to the bank, so MIL's will was rewritten to leave the money to the grown grandkids, instead, with the unwritten agreement that the money would be gifted to their mother after bankruptcy to help her get back on her feet (she did lose most of her assets, including her house).  Indeed, MIL ended up passing in the midst of the bankruptcy, but the inheritance went safely to the grandkids instead of being hoovered up by the bank.

Two of the four kids reneged on the deal, and spent the money frivolously while their mother suffered financial and personal hardship.  Mother subsequently has regained her footing, at least somewhat, and plans to make up the difference in her own will.  Of course, that's without regard to inflation or lost opportunity cost over a period of decades (at least, I hope so), so the selfish kids come out ahead financially in either case.

I mean, I guess the kids are selfish, but I read the first paragraph assuming you were calling out the mother.  What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.

Any form of transferring assets to someone else to avoid a creditor is fraudulent. However, depending on location, the MIL could have put the inheritance out of reach of her daughter's creditors by using an irrevocable protection trust, a family trust, or several other means.

There's a fantastic book called "Beyond The Grave" that I'm using to ensure I provide for the VSB after my eventual demise. It's written by an estate lawyer who knows what he's talking about. Every single estate planning strategy has an up-side and a down-side.

Arbitrage

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1431 on: October 22, 2018, 04:55:32 PM »
Yep, sounded a bit sketchy to me as well.

barbaz

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« Reply #1432 on: October 23, 2018, 01:27:23 PM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1433 on: October 23, 2018, 02:14:06 PM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.
Is the bar so low now that illegal activities are okay?

The point of throwing additional money is that she declared bankruptcy and had the means of making it right to the people that trusted her. Personally I think its fitting her kids kept the money, its learned behavior from bad parenting. Why would they give her money when she is unwilling to give money to people she owes?

sol

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1434 on: October 23, 2018, 03:00:03 PM »
Why would they give her money when she is unwilling to give money to people she owes?

I thought that was the ironic point of the story.  Like man who finally leaves his wife only to find out that his girlfriend is secretly married and won't leave her husband, or the drunk who starts a bar fight and then gets his ass beat.  Let them reap what they sow.

former player

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1435 on: October 23, 2018, 03:13:00 PM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.

How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.


If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1436 on: October 23, 2018, 04:00:56 PM »
How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.

If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.
I'm having the same trouble squaring that circle as well.  I have no issue with discussing the moral angle, but I fail to see how it's illegal.  If I stated my intention to donate money to a charity, and then found out that they were about to enter bankruptcy, would it also be illegal to change my mind and not donate to them?

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1437 on: October 23, 2018, 07:50:48 PM »
The mother should have created a trust. 

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1438 on: October 24, 2018, 01:58:48 AM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.


How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.


If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.

It's illegal because the will was changed entirely to avoid having that money available to creditors and yet the inheritance to the kids wasn't supposed to be real because they were supposed to funnel it back to mom.  They were expected to hold the money while mom's bankruptcy was finalized, then give it back, basically hiding it from creditors and the bankruptcy courts.  It would be like a man having a friend hide his collection of fancy watches or a woman hide expensive jewels during divorce proceedings, then getting them back when they were no longer subject to community property divisions.  The point is to mislead and hide assets, and thus it is fraudulent.

Changing the will to leave money to the kids instead of the mom isn't illegal.  Doing to for the purposes of hiding the money from courts and creditors, and with the expectation that it be returned when the danger of having it seized was over, almost certainly is illegal.  The money was still supposed to go to mom, just in a way that hid it from creditors. 

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1439 on: October 24, 2018, 07:49:32 AM »
Note: private creditors have a cost/benefit calculation they have to do when deciding whether to pursue this money. It is almost certainly criminal fraud. They will have to pay lawyers to attempt to recover the extra money that is being fraudulently withheld from the bankruptcy.

If it were the Federal Gov't, and the assets were being hidden so that mother could qualify for medicaid, you can bet they'd bring some serious fury on her.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1440 on: October 24, 2018, 08:19:56 AM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.


How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.


If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.

It's illegal because the will was changed entirely to avoid having that money available to creditors and yet the inheritance to the kids wasn't supposed to be real because they were supposed to funnel it back to mom.  They were expected to hold the money while mom's bankruptcy was finalized, then give it back, basically hiding it from creditors and the bankruptcy courts.  It would be like a man having a friend hide his collection of fancy watches or a woman hide expensive jewels during divorce proceedings, then getting them back when they were no longer subject to community property divisions.  The point is to mislead and hide assets, and thus it is fraudulent.

Changing the will to leave money to the kids instead of the mom isn't illegal.  Doing to for the purposes of hiding the money from courts and creditors, and with the expectation that it be returned when the danger of having it seized was over, almost certainly is illegal.  The money was still supposed to go to mom, just in a way that hid it from creditors.
Yeah, it sounds like constructive fraud to me, even if she did straight Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1441 on: October 24, 2018, 08:26:42 AM »
If she were hiding her own assets then I could see how that was fraud.  Since the money was never legally hers, I don't see how this is fraud.  I know of a situation right now where a guy is being charged criminally with causing the death of someone during the commission of another crime.  The family is likely to sue him civilly as well.  He has no money of his own, but comes from a well-off family.  His family's wills have now been changed to pass any share of his parents' estates to his kids rather than to him, essentially making him judgement proof.  I don't see how this is any different. 

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1442 on: October 24, 2018, 11:29:59 AM »
If she were hiding her own assets then I could see how that was fraud.  Since the money was never legally hers, I don't see how this is fraud.  I know of a situation right now where a guy is being charged criminally with causing the death of someone during the commission of another crime.  The family is likely to sue him civilly as well.  He has no money of his own, but comes from a well-off family.  His family's wills have now been changed to pass any share of his parents' estates to his kids rather than to him, essentially making him judgement proof.  I don't see how this is any different.

The mom isn't the one committing the fraud single-handedly. It's a joint decision between the grandma, the mom, and the participating kids.

In the case of the guy with criminal charges, they aren't making *him* judgement-proof, because the courts can award pretty much anything they choose. However the *family money* is being protected from at least some of the consequences of his stupid behavior... yet the parents had better cover their rumps well if they plan to leave him less or nothing, because it's fairly common for heirs who are passed over to lawyer up and sue the other heirs after the fact.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1443 on: October 24, 2018, 11:57:35 AM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.


How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.


If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.

It's illegal because the will was changed entirely to avoid having that money available to creditors and yet the inheritance to the kids wasn't supposed to be real because they were supposed to funnel it back to mom.  They were expected to hold the money while mom's bankruptcy was finalized, then give it back, basically hiding it from creditors and the bankruptcy courts.  It would be like a man having a friend hide his collection of fancy watches or a woman hide expensive jewels during divorce proceedings, then getting them back when they were no longer subject to community property divisions.  The point is to mislead and hide assets, and thus it is fraudulent.

Changing the will to leave money to the kids instead of the mom isn't illegal.  Doing to for the purposes of hiding the money from courts and creditors, and with the expectation that it be returned when the danger of having it seized was over, almost certainly is illegal.  The money was still supposed to go to mom, just in a way that hid it from creditors.

Right.  But a person administering a bankruptcy only has the right to assets of the bankrupt, and the mother's money was never an asset of the bankrupt at any point.  So how was there any right at any time for the person administering the bankrupt to stop the mother from doing whatever she wanted to?  If there had been a formal trust in the will for the benefit of the bankrupt then as soon as the mother died there would have been an asset to go into the bankruptcy.  But if it was only an informal set of wishes that the grandchildren should pass the money back to the mother not amounting to anything which was a legal trust, surely not.  And given that two of the grandchildren ignored the wishes and took the money, it does seem that it was just a wish, not a legally enforceable trust that the bankruptcy administrator could have got their hands on.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1444 on: October 24, 2018, 12:04:51 PM »
What she and the MIL did was fraudulent... and while I'm glad bankruptcy exists for people who genuinely need it, I don't applaud what the mother and MIL did here.  I bet the courts don't, either.
Illegal, sure, but what is the point of throwing additional family money into the pit? The lenders calculated the defaulting risks and adjusted the interest accordingly, so unless the women advertised the inheritance as some sort of security, no one was betrayed here.


How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.


If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.

It's illegal because the will was changed entirely to avoid having that money available to creditors and yet the inheritance to the kids wasn't supposed to be real because they were supposed to funnel it back to mom.  They were expected to hold the money while mom's bankruptcy was finalized, then give it back, basically hiding it from creditors and the bankruptcy courts.  It would be like a man having a friend hide his collection of fancy watches or a woman hide expensive jewels during divorce proceedings, then getting them back when they were no longer subject to community property divisions.  The point is to mislead and hide assets, and thus it is fraudulent.

Changing the will to leave money to the kids instead of the mom isn't illegal.  Doing to for the purposes of hiding the money from courts and creditors, and with the expectation that it be returned when the danger of having it seized was over, almost certainly is illegal.  The money was still supposed to go to mom, just in a way that hid it from creditors.

Right.  But a person administering a bankruptcy only has the right to assets of the bankrupt, and the mother's money was never an asset of the bankrupt at any point.  So how was there any right at any time for the person administering the bankrupt to stop the mother from doing whatever she wanted to?  If there had been a formal trust in the will for the benefit of the bankrupt then as soon as the mother died there would have been an asset to go into the bankruptcy.  But if it was only an informal set of wishes that the grandchildren should pass the money back to the mother not amounting to anything which was a legal trust, surely not.  And given that two of the grandchildren ignored the wishes and took the money, it does seem that it was just a wish, not a legally enforceable trust that the bankruptcy administrator could have got their hands on.
I think you're right that it isn't actual fraud under 541(a) because of the definition of "property" to include rights to inheritance within 180 days after filing and the mom didn't die here.  It still seems like there'd be a constructive fraud case here.  To get federal benefits they would definitely be looking at this.

Regardless, it's sort of schadenfreude, but I feel like the mom sort of got what she deserved when kids refused to participate in her ploy, even if it was ultimately for their own gain.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1445 on: October 24, 2018, 05:16:03 PM »
How is it illegal?  My reading of the story is that the woman's mother changed her will of her own accord so as not to leave any money to her.  Anyone can change their will at any time.  There is no "right to inherit" until someone dies - there is no prospective right to an inheritance which can be enforced in court, for instance to stop someone changing their will.  Is their?  So if the woman never had a right to her mother's money, how could her debtors have any right to it?  And if the debtors had no rights, there can be no fraud.

If the woman had the money and gave it away, sure.  Or if her mother had already died and the woman refused the inheritance she was due under the will, also legally not on, under bankruptcy laws.  But someone's parent choosing to change their will before they died?  I don't see the legal problem.
I'm having the same trouble squaring that circle as well.  I have no issue with discussing the moral angle, but I fail to see how it's illegal.  If I stated my intention to donate money to a charity, and then found out that they were about to enter bankruptcy, would it also be illegal to change my mind and not donate to them?
Conspiracy is generally illegal. Any time you ned to keep something secret in order to get an advantage over a third party, you probably are breaking the law. Do you think this lady is the smartest woman ever and invented a new way to hide assets? Everything was legal up to the point where there was an agreement that the money was to be returned to the mom. As soon as that agreement was made, it was a conspiracy and gets dodgy.


Laws are simple, if you think you're being clever, theres a law somewhere that will come out and smack you. There is a golden rule that underlies most laws; do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The USA has a lot of laws that you don't need to be aware of; you just need to treat people honestly.

Flip the scenario around; what if you were the creditor and found out about all these agreements that were designed to screw you? Would you take it lying down or want your money? I would feel screwed and be angry if someone tried this on me.

Maybe I'm wrong and there isn't a law, thats what Civil court is for. That's a catch all for dodgy acts, you can be perfectly legal and still lose.

sol

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1446 on: October 24, 2018, 06:46:56 PM »
The USA has a lot of laws that you don't need to be aware of; you just need to treat people honestly.

You will make a TERRIBLE rich person.

The whole point of being rich is to find ways to shield your money.  Rich people use a million different schemes of questionable legality, knowing it is dishonest to do so.  Look at Donald Trump's businesses, for example; that guy has always been shady as shit and yet he is, just barely, on the right side of the law.  Defrauding your creditors doesn't even rise the level of a violation, in that world, it's almost assumed.

Rich people own assets through corporations, and then own other corporations to pay themselves through their original corporations.  They hire their children and distribute income to tax-advantaged accounts.  They take out loans of other people's money and then declare the interest as losses against their personal income even though the payments are made with other people's money.  All of their travel is tax deductible.  All of their properties are owned through intermediary trusts designed to shield them from litigation.  This is what being rich means, it means finding just-barely-legal ways to constantly get more and more rich.  Do unto others?  They only do unto themselves, screw everyone else.

Careful estate planning to avoid losing assets to a bankruptcy court is just normal business for rich families.  Their accountant would be negligent NOT to advise them to change the will to shield these assets.  If I was their accountant, I would probably go a step farther and suggest swapping business asset ownership to concentrate as many failing books as possible in the possession of the one person who is going through bankruptcy.  Might as well offload your losers and salvage the winners that would otherwise be used to pay her creditors, right?  The Trumps certainly do it, and if it's good enough for the pussy grabber in chief, isn't it good enough for us little guys?  Romney did it.  The Bushes and Clintons both did it.  I expect the Obamas will do it in the future, now that they are finally getting rich. 

It's all warm and fuzzy to have ideals, but capitalism thrives on natural selection.  People who learn to most effectively bend the rules are the ones who get the richest.  People who follow all the rules never thrive quite as well, and are eventually left behind.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1447 on: October 24, 2018, 09:14:39 PM »
Sol's got it figured out.  Everybody could be rich if they'd just learn to bend the rules. 


My granddad used to say "It's a lot easier to make money than it is to keep it.".




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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1448 on: October 25, 2018, 12:49:20 AM »
If she were hiding her own assets then I could see how that was fraud.  Since the money was never legally hers, I don't see how this is fraud.  I know of a situation right now where a guy is being charged criminally with causing the death of someone during the commission of another crime.  The family is likely to sue him civilly as well.  He has no money of his own, but comes from a well-off family.  His family's wills have now been changed to pass any share of his parents' estates to his kids rather than to him, essentially making him judgement proof.  I don't see how this is any different.

And if the true intention is for the kids to have and keep the money, then yes, there is no fraud.  But that's where your example and that situation are different.  In the original situation, the money never was truly for the kids.  It was for the mom, but the kids were supposed to hold it until the danger was over, then give it back to the mom.

To go back to my example, it's not illegal for my bet friend to gift me all of her jewels.  It is probably illegal for him to give them to me to stash in my jewelry draw and say they are mine, until her divorce is settled (and her husband can't take 50% of them) and then give them back to her.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #1449 on: October 25, 2018, 02:28:42 AM »
If she were hiding her own assets then I could see how that was fraud.  Since the money was never legally hers, I don't see how this is fraud.  I know of a situation right now where a guy is being charged criminally with causing the death of someone during the commission of another crime.  The family is likely to sue him civilly as well.  He has no money of his own, but comes from a well-off family.  His family's wills have now been changed to pass any share of his parents' estates to his kids rather than to him, essentially making him judgement proof.  I don't see how this is any different.

And if the true intention is for the kids to have and keep the money, then yes, there is no fraud.  But that's where your example and that situation are different.  In the original situation, the money never was truly for the kids.  It was for the mom, but the kids were supposed to hold it until the danger was over, then give it back to the mom.

To go back to my example, it's not illegal for my bet friend to gift me all of her jewels.  It is probably illegal for him to give them to me to stash in my jewelry draw and say they are mine, until her divorce is settled (and her husband can't take 50% of them) and then give them back to her.

The difference in your example is that the jewels belonged to the bankrupt friend and were never legally given to you, so yes, clearly still assets in the bankruptcy and fraudulent behaviour on both your parts.

In the example case, the mother never had any legal right to the assets - if she had, the two kids couldn't have kept and spent the money.  If the mother had a legal interest in the assets and the children had a legal obligation to hand them over after the bankruptcy, again fraud.  It's the mother's lack of any legal interest under the grandmother's will that makes the difference - the bankruptcy administrator can't collect on family feelings and presumed "good" family behaviour. 

I am, for once and probably once only, with the spendypants grandkids on this one - except that I would have preferred them to invest the money in index funds or property, obviously.