Author Topic: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....  (Read 119169 times)

dude

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2015, 05:25:51 AM »
I feel bad in one respect -- the U.S. government, as Senator Elizabeth Warren so adamantly points out, should not be using these students as a profit center.  It's terribly short-sighted and counterproductive to a robust economy.  When I graduated law school, Stafford loans were keyed to the 3-month T-Bill in such a way that they were at very reasonable rates*; they re-set every July 1, and are currently at 2.33%. In this low interest rate environment, it's criminal that the government is getting 4.66% (undergrad) and 6.21% (grad).

*From Wikipedia (old info): For variable rate loans, the rates are set annually using the price of the 91-day Treasury bill on the last Monday of May, and become effective for the following year on July 1. For fiscal year 2008-2009 the 91-day Treasury bill auctioned on May 27, 2008 at 1.905% (rounded to 1.91%) are used for the calculation.[4] On May 26, 2009 the 91-day Treasury bill was auctioned at an investment rate of 0.178%.[5] On July 1, 2009, the base rate for variable rate Stafford Loans were adjusted to 0.18%. Loans issued before July 1, 1998 were adjusted to a rate of 3.28%. Loans issued July 1, 1998–June 30, 2006 were adjusted to a rate of 2.48%.

sleepyguy

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2015, 08:13:31 AM »
US student loans system is just broken IMHO, Canada's is 10000000000x better.

That said, it is crazy the amount these people will take on without knowing the consequences, and it's absurd that lenders/gov't allow it at those insane rates.
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MishMash

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2015, 10:16:07 AM »
Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.


This. Additionally parents and high schools push hard to go to college. They paint a very rosy picture of college life in general, and tell you that college degrees automatically mean a very comfortable wage and that jobs grow on trees if you only go to college...
Yes, that also goes to what crispy said.

Clueless teenager is true, our brains don't fully mature until the 20's.  People who don't come from money and don't come from families who went to college are at an extreme disadvantage - they don't know how valuable a particular degree is - their parents say "just go to college" - they don't know how important networking is, and they often don't know how hard it is to pay off loans.

I didn't know ANY of that and my mom worked at a bank!  But I'm just lucky I got a bunch of scholarships and had jobs and only had $11k in debt.

I feel especially bad for the guy who has paid back $130k and still owes $60k on an original $62k.

No! This is bullshit, just plain and simple.  I am one of those that graduated with 100k in debt (97 to be exact).  My parents were, and still are terrible with money, and I had ZERO financial education.  I learned, I read the looooooong ass federal borrowing promissory note, and the loan counseling that said this WILL have to be paid back at x interest rate and my high school algebra class was enough to calculate that payment. 

You can't play the "stupid kid didn't know what they are getting into thing"  I knew EXACTLY what I was getting into, chose a major strictly for it's earning potential (which was computer based and I had never even turned on a computer at the time), busted my hump to graduate in 4 years with a double major, while working, got a free ride to grad school, just in time to graduate into the beginning of the recession.  I STILL paid them off inside of three years by working multiple jobs and living in a literal ghetto (house broken into 3 times, nothing worth stealing though, they finally gave up) while growing food in containers on my patio.

Sorry this is a topic I hear time and time again from my friends and peers and it pisses me off.  "Oh poor me, I have so much student loan debt"  I had the most out of anyone I knew, by A LOT, I am still the only one that has paid it off. I hear them complain about how the loan payments and child care payments and car payments really put a crimp on "fun", I've gotten, oh it must be soooo nice to have disposable income...yup, it is, but we don't earn any more then you guys, we just don't have car payments, or loan payments because we made HARD choices not too.  I mentioned this to the last person (old college roommate) that was bitching to me just a few weeks ago, her response was, but I can't give up my stuff (ie phones clothes and other electronics are their weekness), and my toddlers NEED the 3/4 acre yard that her 700k house has.

So no, no pity from me on any of these, and a number of those posts make me want to go nuclear on how I shouldn't be responsible for paying back their piss poor lack of planning and willpower.  Call it a lack of empathy..I know other people have told me I need to be sympathetic (and yes number 5 I have a minutia of pity for) but I call it a refusal to think someone else should be responsible for my personal decisions.

Scandium

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2015, 11:14:32 AM »
Here's an interesting one:
"I served this country to protect the rights of everyone here, including myself. I'm 45, I don't own a house, I drive a used car and I pay student loans. Why are people born in this country paying interest on an education? I'm far from racist,(filipina girlfriend), but why am I paying for something I needed to improve and all can move here and live and go to school on my dime??! Interest is covering the government giving money away!"

1. Isn't there a government program in the US to help veterans go to college? Correct me if that's no longer the case.

2. Yes, drive a used car and pay off your loans. Absolutely. You are in debt.

3. Isn't that a racist comment? "I can't be racist because my girlfriend is nonwhite"?

4. Translation: Government money should pay for MY education! Not anyone else's!!

5. Apart from refugees, don't a lot of immigrants have to prove that they have means or can earn a living before they can immigrate? Many of them were educated in their home countries and are bringing their needed skills to the US.

Yes that guy sounded like and idiot, and a racist. Despite flaunting his non-racist credentials..
I went to (graduate) school here, I paid out of state tuition! My "home country" didn't just give me money to go to school. 70% or so they lent to me and I have to pay back. Albeit at a very low interest. The state give out student loans at their bond issue rate. I don't understand why the US doesn't do this (ok I have some idea..)

I had to prove my English proficiency, and that I had money to support my self in school. After that you have to have a job to stay. And then the company has to list the job for x weeks/months and prove that they could not find a suitable US citizen to fill it before you get permanent residency.

So his excuse is: "not my fault I got a useless degree. Damn furinrs took er jerbs!


Kaspian

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2015, 11:31:17 AM »
This is becoming huge in Canada as well.  Since when did:  "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing?  It's an arrogant stance of superiority.  Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary?  40 years of teaching self-esteem has really paid off in attitude. 
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Jouer

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2015, 11:33:21 AM »
I'm with Mishmash on this one. I wasn't exactly fully on the ball at 18 but I knew enough to read every sentence of the loan documents. (I came from low-income family without much in terms of money education. I think that is why I read the documents - because I didn't know shit.)

I also knew once I graduated that my $30k loans would cost me $60k if I made only the minimum payments. I can't remember if I did the math or if it was on something sent to me....I'm thinking it was on something they sent to me. I remember that being a kick in the ass - my first lesson in debt avoidance, the hard way.

I hated making student loan payments. But I kept telling myself it will get better once they are paid, that having a good education will be worth it in the end. Long story short: it was/is.

hunniebun

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2015, 11:39:17 AM »
I do feel for these people.  University and college educations are marketed harder than Disney.  People sign loans not fully understanding what they are signing and yes that is on them...but the deceptive nature of the 'sales' people is also deplorable.   What kind of lender loans 260000K to people who don't have a job?  That sounds like the lending policy of a back room loan shark. Why are these lenders not held to some level of accountability too?  Surely the lender knows that the odds of these people paying back the full amount in their lifetime is zero.  Perhaps university and colleges should have financial planning 101 as a mandatory course in the first year and explain to people how to read a contract, how to calculate interest and how to make a budget.

dycker1978

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2015, 11:43:36 AM »
This is becoming huge in Canada as well.  Since when did:  "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing?  It's an arrogant stance of superiority.  Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary?  40 years of teaching self-esteem has really paid off in attitude.

+1  Where did this sense of entitlement come from? I guess I know the answer to that...

Hank Sinatra

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2015, 11:56:44 AM »
Quote

+1  Where did this sense of entitlement come from? I guess I know the answer to that...

It's a malignant outgrowth part and parcel of The Cult of the Individual: I built that. There ain't no "we". Rugged Individualism. Credentialism.  The whole corporate syphilis we've been succumbing to  for 30-40-ish years. It is definitely not an outgrowth of "self-esteem" classes. Just the opposite.

FatCat

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2015, 12:01:22 PM »
This is becoming huge in Canada as well.  Since when did:  "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing?  It's an arrogant stance of superiority.  Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary?  40 years of teaching self-esteem has really paid off in attitude.

I remember reading an article several years about about some people who were pissed off because their particular PhDs were really only good for being a professor but the universities aren't staffing enough people to hire all the PhD graduates they are churning out. They thought universities should be required to expand their staff based on how many PhD students were graduating so that way all PhD students would have a job. And this would be good for everyone because with more teachers available we could start churning out more new PhD holders who were also entitled to jobs.

Colleges are rife with high self esteemed yet mediocre students. It is amazing to see someone failing in a subject but still proudly announce the reason they are failing is because they are actually so smart that the college isn't designed correctly to handle their level of genius. I remember one girl constantly failing math while blaming the university because she KNEW she was excellent at math. She insisted the teaching staff was so bad at math that it was causing her to get bad grades and fail the class repeatedly. High self esteem wins out every time.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2015, 12:38:35 PM »
This is becoming huge in Canada as well.  Since when did:  "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing?  It's an arrogant stance of superiority.  Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary?  40 years of teaching self-esteem has really paid off in attitude.

A STEM degree with good grades at a recognized college actually does practically guarantee you a six figure salary.  Maybe this will change down the road, but right now that is the way things are.

So much for that Egyptology PHD you paid $120,000 to get.

Jack

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2015, 01:45:10 PM »
When I graduated law school, Stafford loans were keyed to the 3-month T-Bill in such a way that they were at very reasonable rates*; they re-set every July 1, and are currently at 2.33%. In this low interest rate environment, it's criminal that the government is getting 4.66% (undergrad) and 6.21% (grad).

WTF? My undergrad Stafford loans are at 6.8%! (Well, actually 6.55% because I got a 0.25% "discount" for paying them on time.)

I love how even your example of "criminal" interest rates (let alone reasonable ones) still manages to underestimate the reality.

: /

A STEM degree with good grades at a recognized college actually does practically guarantee you a six figure salary.  Maybe this will change down the road, but right now that is the way things are.

No, it really fucking doesn't!

I have TWO STEM degrees from a university with a top-10 national ranking in both majors, but still managed to be unemployed for the better part of two years and haven't yet broken $70K five years after graduation. Granted, part of that was because I was trying to use the less-in-demand degree (to stay on track for a PE license) and because I wasn't willing to relocate, but still...

Two of my EE friends completely failed to find jobs in their field and ended up as sysadmin / Sharepoint developer types, and my AE friend ended up having to short-sell his house because the only job he could find was at Cessna, in Kansas.

Of my college friends -- all of whom are various kinds of engineers -- I would only expect two to be making 6-figures at this point. (One was a CS major who moved to the Valley, and the other was an EE who was such a genius that he could maintain a 4.0 while partying. Of course, due to that partying a big chunk of the latter's salary goes to child support....)

Elliot

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2015, 02:04:12 PM »
Jack-- my staffords (now thankfully slain) were at a 6.99%, for unsubsidized and 6.25% for the "subsidized."

I knew they had to be paid back. I also knew that I really didn't have much choice but to sign on the dotted line or ask a private loan company for money if I wanted to go to college. I was an A and B student in high school, so I got some scholarships and grants, but full-ride scholarships are mostly for athletes and straight A types. I had to make up the difference somehow, and was already working to support my family of origin.

Noodle

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2015, 02:29:03 PM »
I do find it shocking that an 18-year old, or 22-year-old, can borrow as much for an education based on theoretical future earnings from a theoretical degree, with an easy application, as I did in my 40s for a mortgage on my home that involved six weeks of paperwork by the bank, a ton of documentation and a major downpayment, and demonstrating a long and excellent credit history (that the bank STILL said was on the skimpy side because I was too conservative about credit cards). And the bank has something to take back if I screw up and don't pay!

I admit I feel for the ones who were 18 or 19 when they borrowed. Even when you have parents who went to college, the funding situation is so different these days that you may be getting bad advice. There are others, though, who could have avoided a lot of this with some simple research...

panda

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2015, 02:45:57 PM »
Wait what is a hospitality diploma? Is that a made-up thing that the diploma mill for-profit schools make up?
My understanding is that these are targeted at people that would be managing a hotel or some other form of lodging. Usually these are degrees that you need to get right away and are something you are guided towards if it looks like you have the talent and aptitude needed. The degree itself is a blend communications, basic business, management, with a little bit of legal thrown in. Useful as a part time program (i.e. Associates degree) to formalize things you already know and to introduce some new skills that you might not be able to get on the job until you are actually doing the managerial job.

Nothing horrible per se, but something that your employer should be paying for in most cases.

bzzzt

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2015, 04:31:19 PM »
A STEM degree with good grades at a recognized college actually does practically guarantee you a six figure salary.  Maybe this will change down the road, but right now that is the way things are.

Not necessarily. A friend's job after graduation was 65k/year and that was the top offer out of 3. It required relocating and he only got that much because he interned there last summer while taking a summer school class 150 miles away 3 days/wk (due to a shitty advisor and mentioned required courses not being offered enough) and they saw how hard he worked to make everything happen.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2015, 05:22:51 PM »
No, it really fucking doesn't!

I have TWO STEM degrees from a university with a top-10 national ranking in both majors, but still managed to be unemployed for the better part of two years and haven't yet broken $70K five years after graduation. Granted, part of that was because I was trying to use the less-in-demand degree (to stay on track for a PE license) and because I wasn't willing to relocate, but still...

Two of my EE friends completely failed to find jobs in their field and ended up as sysadmin / Sharepoint developer types, and my AE friend ended up having to short-sell his house because the only job he could find was at Cessna, in Kansas.

Of my college friends -- all of whom are various kinds of engineers -- I would only expect two to be making 6-figures at this point. (One was a CS major who moved to the Valley, and the other was an EE who was such a genius that he could maintain a 4.0 while partying. Of course, due to that partying a big chunk of the latter's salary goes to child support....)

Ok, maybe it is a west coast thing.   I do not know if you can get a job in engineering with decent pay in Bumfuck, Wyoming.

Also, I should have qualified by saying you can get to a 6 figure salary after some experience (maybe 5 to 10 years) working.

I have ME, EE, CS friends all making 70k plus and the ones who have been working for a decade are definitely over $100k.  My wife, with a Ivy league CS degree made $270k last year and she sucks at negotiating.   A former fellow employee left where she works and went to an even higher paying job at Google with stock options and a $150,000 signing bonus. 

Jack

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2015, 06:44:14 PM »
Ok, maybe it is a west coast thing.   I do not know if you can get a job in engineering with decent pay in Bumfuck, Wyoming.

Also, I should have qualified by saying you can get to a 6 figure salary after some experience (maybe 5 to 10 years) working.

I have ME, EE, CS friends all making 70k plus and the ones who have been working for a decade are definitely over $100k.  My wife, with a Ivy league CS degree made $270k last year and she sucks at negotiating.   A former fellow employee left where she works and went to an even higher paying job at Google with stock options and a $150,000 signing bonus.

What you have is a hugely skewed perspective. Even the median software engineer salary nationwide is only in the high 5-figures, and most other kinds of engineers are paid less than that. That skewed perspective becomes a problem when it causes you to start saying demonstrably false things like "a STEM degree with good grades at a recognized college actually does practically guarantee you a six figure salary."

sleepyguy

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2015, 07:21:02 PM »
I agree but generally it's nothing absurd as these amounts the US students take on.  Job market is hard on the young and honestly that's just the way it is... you are competing against people with lots of years of experience and no training req.  This is a pretty decent documentary on the Canadian job market for young grads a few yrs back... young MMMs take note of the degrees majority of them took.  I'm not saying University should be ONLY to get a job, BUT if you are taking on massive loans you better well be damn sure this is some light at the end of the tunnel... if you got endless money tree... take basket weaving 101 if that floats your boat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UUuMWqA8eE

This is becoming huge in Canada as well.  Since when did:  "I am educated therefore automatically entitled to lots of money," become a thing?  It's an arrogant stance of superiority.  Since when does a degree guarantee you a six-figure salary?  40 years of teaching self-esteem has really paid off in attitude.
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joleran

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2015, 08:32:19 PM »
The degree itself is a blend communications, basic business, management, with a little bit of legal thrown in. Useful as a part time program (i.e. Associates degree) to formalize things you already know and to introduce some new skills that you might not be able to get on the job until you are actually doing the managerial job.

Nothing horrible per se, but something that your employer should be paying for in most cases.

There's no way a hotel is going to pay for some random worker to get education to become management unless they are amazingly talented, and probably not then either.  I view a hospitality degree as a very specialized MBA for much less money.

dragoncar

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2015, 06:26:49 AM »
I feel bad for some of these people.  Some are just unintelligent and were sold the scam that a degree from some crappy community college would "better" them.  Crap like this just preys on the financially ignorant: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oLX30ijbM2Q


It is absolutely usurious for federally backed loans, non-discharge able in bankruptcy, are at 6-8% when the fed rate is a big fat zero and even during qe1-3.  The government should definitely have refinanced every single student loan at near zero rates--- that would have gotten the economy pumping way faster than buying up 30 year treasuries.

Of course some of the posters get what they derserve.

Hotel school.. Could be worth it https://www.hotelschool.cornell.edu/industry/employers/documents/2013%20MMH%20Post%20Grad%20ReportFINAL.pdf

GoingConcern

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2015, 07:17:05 AM »
Sorry it's hard for me to feel bad for these people when I went to a state school and commuted 3 hours a day via public transportation because dorming was too expensive.  I had no student loans out of college and was able to pay my total tuition of $20k (graduated about 5 years ago) via government grants, parents helping out, working part time and scholarships.  My total tuition is almost what students pay in dorming a year.   I guess I will sit back and enjoy being debt free and financial independent and wallow at the fact I never had the "college experience." 

People need to treat college like any other business transaction and need to do away with the mentality "Education is an investment and cost is not a big factor." 

For example, if you are going into 100k-200k of debt to get a $50k job then you are crippling your future. 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 07:25:44 AM by GoingConcern »

panda

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2015, 09:53:28 AM »
The degree itself is a blend communications, basic business, management, with a little bit of legal thrown in. Useful as a part time program (i.e. Associates degree) to formalize things you already know and to introduce some new skills that you might not be able to get on the job until you are actually doing the managerial job.

Nothing horrible per se, but something that your employer should be paying for in most cases.

There's no way a hotel is going to pay for some random worker to get education to become management unless they are amazingly talented, and probably not then either.  I view a hospitality degree as a very specialized MBA for much less money.
Random? No, of course not, doesn't make sense. But for someone that is an assistant manager that they want to promote up to manager it could make sense. MBAs sometimes work that way - a company wants to put a talented employee that has potential in charge of a department but they don't have the background needed to be a manager. So in that case you pay for the person to get an MBA in exchange for guaranteeing so many years of service with the company or you have to repay the cost of the degree. Incidentally, I also think that is the only way you should get an MBA as well - someone else paid for it.

Kaspian

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2015, 02:35:09 PM »
You can probably have all the STEM degrees in the world, but if you suck at job interviews, smell bad, have a piss-poor/entitled attitude, or show up late for work all the time, they ain't gonna get you the job you want.  Why don't people ever talk about that aspect?  Education ≠ skills ≠ good job.  You're only worth what people will pay you.  If that's nothing, it means they either don't need ya or they already have one of you.
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DragonSlayer

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2015, 03:01:58 PM »
Quote

+1  Where did this sense of entitlement come from? I guess I know the answer to that...

It's a malignant outgrowth part and parcel of The Cult of the Individual: I built that. There ain't no "we". Rugged Individualism. Credentialism.  The whole corporate syphilis we've been succumbing to  for 30-40-ish years. It is definitely not an outgrowth of "self-esteem" classes. Just the opposite.

Nothing to add, but the bolded made me choke on my taco.

Hank Sinatra

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2015, 03:15:24 PM »
Quote

+1  Where did this sense of entitlement come from? I guess I know the answer to that...

It's a malignant outgrowth part and parcel of The Cult of the Individual: I built that. There ain't no "we". Rugged Individualism. Credentialism.  The whole corporate syphilis we've been succumbing to  for 30-40-ish years. It is definitely not an outgrowth of "self-esteem" classes. Just the opposite.

Nothing to add, but the bolded made me choke on my taco.

Heh heh. Glad to make you smile. And by "corporate" I did not mean merely the usual usage of the term:  A  "Big Business interest" "C" Corp  as defined by law.
I meant it in the broader sense encompassing a defining societal way of thinking.

rocketpj

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2015, 03:48:44 PM »
People can be dismissive, but I can think of few ways more certain to utterly sabotage the health of an economy than to saddle all the people who should be most able to take risks, innovate and try new things with crushing debt.

Student debt has been turned into a profit centre for lenders and colleges.  The lenders have the ultimate safe loan - that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.  The colleges get to massively over-inflate their tuitions.  The students, all of whom are young and stupid, get screwed.

And in the end you have a massive number of reasonably intelligent, creative young people who must GET A JOB AND KEEP IT in order to pay the debt.  No room for risk, or entrepreneurship or fresh ideas.  They must become beholden to an employer as soon as possible, and stay there for a decade or longer. 

Maybe some of them were intentionally stupid.  Maybe there is a moral point to be made to destroy a few lives to teach a lesson to the kids that follow.  But ultimately it will destroy your economy and society, so it might be worth considering alternatives.

MrsPete

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2015, 04:06:54 PM »
"Enterprising"?  Got sh1t to do with it. It  depends on what the hiring dopes want to see. You got papers? good? No papers? Fock-off. Maybe an Eddie Haskell type could weasel his way in but normal people might need to spend something to get something. Employers are good  externalizing costs.


[/quote]No, not for these jobs.  A "hospitality diploma" will qualify you to start as a hotel desk clerk; that is, handling check in /check outs, etc.  People go into these programs thinking they'll be hotel directors or cruise directors ... but those jobs DO require real degrees. 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 04:11:18 PM by MrsPete »

One Noisy Cat

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2015, 04:40:01 PM »
     I feel pretty bad for these people because I went to college 40 years ago, did nothing with my degree (decided that law wasn't my thing) and had Mom and Dad pay tuition/room and board. Which didn't bankrupt them-4 kids 7 years span all getting BAs. Why college costs so much now is a puzzle to me, having loans available  partly explains why costs skyrocket.

Argyle

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #79 on: April 23, 2015, 07:39:21 AM »
The American Association of University Professors has recently put out a large study on why tuition has skyrocketed.  (http://www.aaup.org/article/busting-myths-annual-report-economic-status-profession-2014-15#.VTj0sWbmU7A if you're interested.)

It's not the availability of loan money.  Much of the reason is the lowered state contributions to state universities.  In the one I'm most familiar with, thirty years ago the state provided 40% of the cost of running the university; in 2015 it's 8%.  Where is the rest of that going to come from?  Higher tuition. 

Another cost is technology.  How often do you replace your computers?  Universities try to drag it out to 5-6 years or so, but as you know, at that age they stop being compatible with the latest software, the software stops being supported by the company, etc. etc.  Every single administator on campus has a computer, every secretary, the library is full of them for students, the computer science labs are full of them.  Every 5-6 years the university has to buy all new computers.  (It's actually on a rolling basis, but you take my point.)  Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere.  Now there are thousands.  It's a huge expense.  Not as bad as the drop in state subsidies, but not negligible.

dragoncar

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #80 on: April 23, 2015, 07:48:39 AM »
Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere.  Now there are thousands.

I bet the eight from 30 years ago cost the same as the thousands now.

infogoon

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #81 on: April 23, 2015, 07:52:09 AM »
Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere.  Now there are thousands.

I bet the eight from 30 years ago cost the same as the thousands now.

The eight from thirty years ago didn't require the massive network and electric infrastructure that colleges have to maintain for the thousands now. Nor the high licensing costs for the associated software. Academic IT is expensive as heck to run.

dragoncar

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2015, 08:31:03 AM »
Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere.  Now there are thousands.

I bet the eight from 30 years ago cost the same as the thousands now.

The eight from thirty years ago didn't require the massive network and electric infrastructure that colleges have to maintain for the thousands now. Nor the high licensing costs for the associated software. Academic IT is expensive as heck to run.

You may have forgotten what year it is.  I guarantee there was massive network infrastructure back then.  Not sure what you mean by "electric infrastructure" as they already run power to all the buildings.

FatCat

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2015, 09:05:12 AM »
The American Association of University Professors has recently put out a large study on why tuition has skyrocketed.  (http://www.aaup.org/article/busting-myths-annual-report-economic-status-profession-2014-15#.VTj0sWbmU7A if you're interested.)

It's not the availability of loan money.  Much of the reason is the lowered state contributions to state universities.  In the one I'm most familiar with, thirty years ago the state provided 40% of the cost of running the university; in 2015 it's 8%.  Where is the rest of that going to come from?  Higher tuition. 

Another cost is technology.  How often do you replace your computers?  Universities try to drag it out to 5-6 years or so, but as you know, at that age they stop being compatible with the latest software, the software stops being supported by the company, etc. etc.  Every single administrator on campus has a computer, every secretary, the library is full of them for students, the computer science labs are full of them.  Every 5-6 years the university has to buy all new computers.  (It's actually on a rolling basis, but you take my point.)  Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere.  Now there are thousands.  It's a huge expense.  Not as bad as the drop in state subsidies, but not negligible.

My university had crap computers in the labs. The computer science department had a separate lab with a decent computers available for computer science majors only, but everywhere else was crap. The way it worked is they would buy just enough computers for the CS department's lab. Then when it was time to buy new computers again, they would get new PCs for CS department and move their old computers to the labs for everybody else. The further away you were from the CS department, the crappier the computers in the computer area would be. So they didn't replace all the computers every few years. If somebody needed a new computer they had to wait for CS to discard one. So all the libraries and computer labs were full of hand me downs. They didn't really buy that many new computers each year.

My professors claimed the high cost of tuition and the crappy computers were both due to the fact that most of the money goes to pay for sports. They claimed roughly a quarter of our tuition was going to pay for the sports teams. I never looked into the budget to see where it's going. I'm just going by what my teachers said.

I looked into one school that had a very high tuition that also required you to buy your own laptop. They provided wifi in all the buildings. They didn't want to pay for computers, yet they were several times higher than my university. So I could have gone to that school instead and graduated with tons of debt and the same degree. Actually, I'm not even sure they were accredited. They still had plenty of students.

dutch_actual

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2015, 09:50:32 AM »
Sorry it's hard for me to feel bad for these people when I went to a state school and commuted 3 hours a day via public transportation because dorming was too expensive.  I had no student loans out of college and was able to pay my total tuition of $20k (graduated about 5 years ago) via government grants, parents helping out, working part time and scholarships.  My total tuition is almost what students pay in dorming a year.   I guess I will sit back and enjoy being debt free and financial independent and wallow at the fact I never had the "college experience." 

Not to take away from people who have graduated debt-free (that's something to be proud of), but I also went to a state school, commuted (often on public transportation), packed my own lunches, and worked (half time to full time) during my 4 years at school, all while taking a full-course engineering load.  I lived on my own, paid my own bills, and didn't get help from my parents.  Even with my job, thousands from scholarships, and a work-study program at the school (in addition to the job), I still graduated $21k in debt, plus another $4k in accrued interest during my school years.  I lived a pretty mustachian lifestyle then, and I still do now--I wasn't frivolous with my spending at all, and still came out in debt. 
Luckily for me, I now have an electrical engineering degree and a salaried, well-paying job to go with it, and will have paid off my $25k in less than a year. 

Yes, some people pick majors with little hopes of getting a job in the future, or what-have-you.  These people with 6-figure school debts don't need pity parties thrown for them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sympathy for a large group of people who are starting out in life behind the eight ball.  Some of these cases are frivolous or short-sighted, but there are some that aren't, too. 

MishMash

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2015, 09:55:56 AM »
Sorry it's hard for me to feel bad for these people when I went to a state school and commuted 3 hours a day via public transportation because dorming was too expensive.  I had no student loans out of college and was able to pay my total tuition of $20k (graduated about 5 years ago) via government grants, parents helping out, working part time and scholarships.  My total tuition is almost what students pay in dorming a year.   I guess I will sit back and enjoy being debt free and financial independent and wallow at the fact I never had the "college experience." 

Not to take away from people who have graduated debt-free (that's something to be proud of), but I also went to a state school, commuted (often on public transportation), packed my own lunches, and worked (half time to full time) during my 4 years at school, all while taking a full-course engineering load.  I lived on my own, paid my own bills, and didn't get help from my parents.  Even with my job, thousands from scholarships, and a work-study program at the school (in addition to the job), I still graduated $21k in debt, plus another $4k in accrued interest during my school years.  I lived a pretty mustachian lifestyle then, and I still do now--I wasn't frivolous with my spending at all, and still came out in debt. 
Luckily for me, I now have an electrical engineering degree and a salaried, well-paying job to go with it, and will have paid off my $25k in less than a year. 

Yes, some people pick majors with little hopes of getting a job in the future, or what-have-you.  These people with 6-figure school debts don't need pity parties thrown for them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sympathy for a large group of people who are starting out in life behind the eight ball.  Some of these cases are frivolous or short-sighted, but there are some that aren't, too.

Dutch, I did all the things you did, state school (couldn't commute though) worked full time etc.  I graduated with 97k in loans still so I was by your definition "behind the eight ball"  I STILL have no sympathy for these people because, they, like me, knew what they were getting themselves into.  They claim they didn't, but they did, it's basic knowledge, I borrow money, I have to pay it back so I better make the right choices to ensure that I can.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2015, 10:24:52 AM »
My professors claimed the high cost of tuition and the crappy computers were both due to the fact that most of the money goes to pay for sports. They claimed roughly a quarter of our tuition was going to pay for the sports teams. I never looked into the budget to see where it's going. I'm just going by what my teachers said.
I thought sports programs were revenue centers for colleges. I guess it depends on the school and the specific program, but my impression was that the big popular sports earn profits, and other sports programs are paid for by that.
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FatCat

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #87 on: April 23, 2015, 10:41:02 AM »
My professors claimed the high cost of tuition and the crappy computers were both due to the fact that most of the money goes to pay for sports. They claimed roughly a quarter of our tuition was going to pay for the sports teams. I never looked into the budget to see where it's going. I'm just going by what my teachers said.
I thought sports programs were revenue centers for colleges. I guess it depends on the school and the specific program, but my impression was that the big popular sports earn profits, and other sports programs are paid for by that.

The sports programs drew more students so they were revenue generators. The sports teams weren't earning their money through people paying for game tickets or buying fan merchandise. They drew more students to the school so there was more tuition money coming in. People are paying to attend the school that is known for its awesome sports team, not it's awesome learning environment. Apparently some people pick a college because their sports teams are awesome, or the frat parties are awesome, or the girls/boys are really attractive. And they don't really care about the quality of the education or the computers and things available for learning. This idea is very strange to me.

And yes, it would depend a lot on the school. And the opinions differ based on who you are talking to. But there was this general idea that students are selecting this school because the sports team is so awesome so the sports team should be given the credit for a good deal of the tuition income. I'm sure some school that is famous for its tech program would prioritize differently.

dutch_actual

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2015, 10:50:57 AM »
Sorry it's hard for me to feel bad for these people when I went to a state school and commuted 3 hours a day via public transportation because dorming was too expensive.  I had no student loans out of college and was able to pay my total tuition of $20k (graduated about 5 years ago) via government grants, parents helping out, working part time and scholarships.  My total tuition is almost what students pay in dorming a year.   I guess I will sit back and enjoy being debt free and financial independent and wallow at the fact I never had the "college experience." 

Not to take away from people who have graduated debt-free (that's something to be proud of), but I also went to a state school, commuted (often on public transportation), packed my own lunches, and worked (half time to full time) during my 4 years at school, all while taking a full-course engineering load.  I lived on my own, paid my own bills, and didn't get help from my parents.  Even with my job, thousands from scholarships, and a work-study program at the school (in addition to the job), I still graduated $21k in debt, plus another $4k in accrued interest during my school years.  I lived a pretty mustachian lifestyle then, and I still do now--I wasn't frivolous with my spending at all, and still came out in debt. 
Luckily for me, I now have an electrical engineering degree and a salaried, well-paying job to go with it, and will have paid off my $25k in less than a year. 

Yes, some people pick majors with little hopes of getting a job in the future, or what-have-you.  These people with 6-figure school debts don't need pity parties thrown for them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sympathy for a large group of people who are starting out in life behind the eight ball.  Some of these cases are frivolous or short-sighted, but there are some that aren't, too.

Dutch, I did all the things you did, state school (couldn't commute though) worked full time etc.  I graduated with 97k in loans still so I was by your definition "behind the eight ball"  I STILL have no sympathy for these people because, they, like me, knew what they were getting themselves into.  They claim they didn't, but they did, it's basic knowledge, I borrow money, I have to pay it back so I better make the right choices to ensure that I can.

I'd like to think there's a mental space that can encompass both expecting personal responsibility, and understanding for others.  I'm taking responsibility to pay back my own loans (that I agreed to pay back), and I don't want others to have a victim mentality (e.g. "the whole system is rigged against us!").  I can still have sympathy, though--it sucks to feel trapped at your job, it sucks to be compared against parents that bought a house and started a family at your age, etc.  I wouldn't be unfeeling towards someone who was trying to lose weight (that they themselves gained) or marital problems (with a partner that they chose to marry), even if I thought their earlier decisions were stupid.  Some of the responses in this thread are pretty harsh, bordering on schadenfreude... maybe I'm just too much of a sap. 

Maybe on a more objective level, people can just see the national student debt as a disservice to their investments.  More money to student loan payments is less "expendable" income, which is less economic growth and smaller investment returns.  Surely $1T in student loan debt (with more and more people defaulting on their loans) presents some serious challenges to our country's future economic health. 

MishMash

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2015, 11:54:39 AM »
Sorry it's hard for me to feel bad for these people when I went to a state school and commuted 3 hours a day via public transportation because dorming was too expensive.  I had no student loans out of college and was able to pay my total tuition of $20k (graduated about 5 years ago) via government grants, parents helping out, working part time and scholarships.  My total tuition is almost what students pay in dorming a year.   I guess I will sit back and enjoy being debt free and financial independent and wallow at the fact I never had the "college experience." 

Not to take away from people who have graduated debt-free (that's something to be proud of), but I also went to a state school, commuted (often on public transportation), packed my own lunches, and worked (half time to full time) during my 4 years at school, all while taking a full-course engineering load.  I lived on my own, paid my own bills, and didn't get help from my parents.  Even with my job, thousands from scholarships, and a work-study program at the school (in addition to the job), I still graduated $21k in debt, plus another $4k in accrued interest during my school years.  I lived a pretty mustachian lifestyle then, and I still do now--I wasn't frivolous with my spending at all, and still came out in debt. 
Luckily for me, I now have an electrical engineering degree and a salaried, well-paying job to go with it, and will have paid off my $25k in less than a year. 

Yes, some people pick majors with little hopes of getting a job in the future, or what-have-you.  These people with 6-figure school debts don't need pity parties thrown for them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sympathy for a large group of people who are starting out in life behind the eight ball.  Some of these cases are frivolous or short-sighted, but there are some that aren't, too.

Dutch, I did all the things you did, state school (couldn't commute though) worked full time etc.  I graduated with 97k in loans still so I was by your definition "behind the eight ball"  I STILL have no sympathy for these people because, they, like me, knew what they were getting themselves into.  They claim they didn't, but they did, it's basic knowledge, I borrow money, I have to pay it back so I better make the right choices to ensure that I can.

I'd like to think there's a mental space that can encompass both expecting personal responsibility, and understanding for others.  I'm taking responsibility to pay back my own loans (that I agreed to pay back), and I don't want others to have a victim mentality (e.g. "the whole system is rigged against us!").  I can still have sympathy, though--it sucks to feel trapped at your job, it sucks to be compared against parents that bought a house and started a family at your age, etc.  I wouldn't be unfeeling towards someone who was trying to lose weight (that they themselves gained) or marital problems (with a partner that they chose to marry), even if I thought their earlier decisions were stupid.  Some of the responses in this thread are pretty harsh, bordering on schadenfreude... maybe I'm just too much of a sap. 

Maybe on a more objective level, people can just see the national student debt as a disservice to their investments.  More money to student loan payments is less "expendable" income, which is less economic growth and smaller investment returns.  Surely $1T in student loan debt (with more and more people defaulting on their loans) presents some serious challenges to our country's future economic health.

When you read the statements in that petition, there is not ONE person in there that got to that point through anything but their own piss poor planning.  Oh, I have 50k in loans let me pop out a couple of kids and stop working.  Oh, no one told me 100k for an acting degree was stupid and so on and so forth.  I feel for them that they are going to be stuck under this for a while, but I have no level of sympathy in me that thinks the taxpayer should wipe their slate clean due to a personal choice. 

I didn't like being stuck in the same job due to loans, but you know what, I built up some side hustles to pay off that near six figure debt in 3 years so that I didn't have to feel stuck.  THAT'S what is lacking in this conversation.  That petition board is FULL of people that do not want to sacrifice to pay those things off, heck 99% of the people I am friends with that have loans refuse to do what is necessary to pay them off.  They don't want to buy a smaller house, they want mommy and daddies house (and not their starter home), they don't want to delay kids a couple of years, and they don't want to drive an old car because the new 40k minivan has all the "safety" features in it.   It's rampant entitlement plain and simple. 

Is 1T in student loan debt bad...yup, but what's the fix?  There really isn't one with the shitty education spending in the US.  Make loans bankruptable and then you end up in another financial crisis and NO ONE can go to college on loans because the servicers won't lend.  Comparing this to loosing weight and divorce isn't even on the same tier.  Weight gain can be caused by situations other then personal choice, like thyroid disease or diabetes, and Divorce can be caused by the other partner simply up and leaving as a shock to the other or through the acute lying of the other partner.

El Gringo

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #90 on: April 23, 2015, 12:28:02 PM »

Make loans bankruptable and then you end up in another financial crisis and NO ONE can go to college on loans because the servicers won't lend.

Actually, if the servicers stop lending, I think you would see a rapid downsizing of the university footprint, in which schools would be forced to go on a diet and drastically cut costs to the point where tuition again is at a level that the middle class can afford out-of-pocket.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #91 on: April 23, 2015, 12:45:47 PM »

Make loans bankruptable and then you end up in another financial crisis and NO ONE can go to college on loans because the servicers won't lend.

Actually, if the servicers stop lending, I think you would see a rapid downsizing of the university footprint, in which schools would be forced to go on a diet and drastically cut costs to the point where tuition again is at a level that the middle class can afford out-of-pocket.
Good point. The easy availability of school credit is considered to be a substantial contributor to runaway costs. If more money is available across the board, it's no surprise that a fallacy of competition results with tech spending, etc.
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MishMash

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #92 on: April 23, 2015, 12:47:30 PM »

Make loans bankruptable and then you end up in another financial crisis and NO ONE can go to college on loans because the servicers won't lend.

Actually, if the servicers stop lending, I think you would see a rapid downsizing of the university footprint, in which schools would be forced to go on a diet and drastically cut costs to the point where tuition again is at a level that the middle class can afford out-of-pocket.
Good point. The easy availability of school credit is considered to be a substantial contributor to runaway costs. If more money is available across the board, it's no surprise that a fallacy of competition results with tech spending, etc.

Possibly, which could take a decade or more to do leading to a glut of non lendable/educated students.  Or the other option is that, just like SweetBriar last month, they decide to bankrupt and close their doors totally, leaving graduated students with a near worthless degree, and thousands of currently enrolled students in the lurch.

mulescent

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #93 on: April 23, 2015, 01:44:49 PM »

Make loans bankruptable and then you end up in another financial crisis and NO ONE can go to college on loans because the servicers won't lend.

Actually, if the servicers stop lending, I think you would see a rapid downsizing of the university footprint, in which schools would be forced to go on a diet and drastically cut costs to the point where tuition again is at a level that the middle class can afford out-of-pocket.

Depends on the school, but most state schools have increased tuition as a result of rapidly declining state tax dollars not increasing costs.  We've shifted the cost of (state) university education from society to the individual students and decreasing loan availability will not change that fact.

MrsPete

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2015, 06:20:25 AM »
Another cost is technology.  How often do you replace your computers?  Universities try to drag it out to 5-6 years or so, but as you know, at that age they stop being compatible with the latest software, the software stops being supported by the company, etc. etc.  Every single administator on campus has a computer, every secretary, the library is full of them for students, the computer science labs are full of them.  Every 5-6 years the university has to buy all new computers.  (It's actually on a rolling basis, but you take my point.)  Thirty years ago there were probably eight in a lab somewhere.  Now there are thousands.  It's a huge expense.  Not as bad as the drop in state subsidies, but not negligible.
Yes, when I earned my first degree in the late 80s, I graduated never having touched a computer.  Today that's unthinkable. 
Yes, some people pick majors with little hopes of getting a job in the future, or what-have-you.  These people with 6-figure school debts don't need pity parties thrown for them, but it wouldn't hurt to have some sympathy for a large group of people who are starting out in life behind the eight ball.  Some of these cases are frivolous or short-sighted, but there are some that aren't, too.
What I see in high school today isn't so much people choosing degrees with little hope of real jobs (i.e., Theater or Women's Studies); rather, it's kids that "overshoot" their own abilities.  Okay,  part of this is that I'm teaching all remedial classes this semester, but among my students -- again, remedial classes -- this year's "favorite major" is Pharmacy.  Yes, a good 10% of my students genuinely think they're going to take their 1.2 high school GPA ... do a short stint in community college ... then transfer to a 4-year university ... go on to grad school ... and work in this competitive field.  Among them I have one potential vet and a whole bunch of engineers.  Oh, and one future pediatric surgeon.  Note that the potential vet took "Foundations of Biology", which is Biology for the kids who can't make it in real Biology (yes, a person who's really going to make it in vet school needs to have aced Honors Biology, then moved on to AP Biology... probably AP Chemistry too); and a bunch of the engineers are taking similarly mediocre math classes. 

It's not that their plans are bad.  Their plans would be fine for another student -- a student with top grades, ability and motivation. 

I try to steer them towards more realistic programs.  For example, for my group of girls bent upon Pharmacy, I talked about the two-year programs at the community college that would allow them to work in a health care field after two years:  Radiology, Surgery Tech, Respitory Therapy, Dental Hyg.  (Okay, the dental jobs have sort of peaked, but the others are very realistic.)  And they look at me like I'm crazy:  They don't "connect" the idea that their high school performance is in any way connected to the jobs they're going to be able to hold in the future. 

So, bringing my point home:  All the 18-year olds who borrow big bucks aren't necessarily ignorant of the fact that they're going to have to pay back $$$$$.  Rather, they feel SO SURE that once they're working in a pharmacy, in their own vet clinic, in this or that other high-paying job, it'll be easy to pay back.  Yes, their logic is flawed ... but not always in the terms you describe. 

And what happens LATER is that they realize they can't make it in Engineering ... and that Gender Studies class was really fun -- and if it didn't lead to a job, they wouldn't offer it, would they? -- so they change their majors.  Few of my students ENTER college in a frivolous major. 
I thought sports programs were revenue centers for colleges. I guess it depends on the school and the specific program, but my impression was that the big popular sports earn profits, and other sports programs are paid for by that.
I'm paying college tuition right now, so I'm "up" on this topic.  None of my daughter's tuition goes to sports; however, if you look at the breakdown of her fees, about $100 or so each semester goes to sports, just as other fees go to fund the health center, the library, etc.  However, her school admits students into games for free -- not all universities do that.  I think they DO make big bucks from the athletic program -- or at least from football, but they ALSO take a bite from the students.
I was an A and B student in high school, so I got some scholarships and grants, but full-ride scholarships are mostly for athletes and straight A types.
Incorrect.  These days, the only people getting full rides are military kids.  The straight-A crowd is getting full tuition plus a couple other smaller scholarships that chip away at their living expenses. 
Possibly, which could take a decade or more to do leading to a glut of non lendable/educated students.  Or the other option is that, just like SweetBriar last month, they decide to bankrupt and close their doors totally, leaving graduated students with a near worthless degree, and thousands of currently enrolled students in the lurch.
Yeah, that happened to a worthless little private college near us some years back.  They lost their accreditation, and that led to their closing their doors. 


« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 06:28:28 AM by MrsPete »

LiveLean

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2015, 08:04:37 AM »
I never feel sorry for college kids. I've taught in college as an adjunct and mentored students too. The formula is not difficult.

1. Choose public in-state college. Do not go private or out-of-state unless scholarships (meaning stuff you don't have to pay back) level the playing field. You say you have a "dream" college? Here's your dream: be debt-free.

2. Live MMM in college. You're poor. Eat in the dining hall. Drink water. Do not enter a Starbucks ever. If you drink alcohol, consume only the ample free booze available in college. Need entertainment? Go to the "free" gym that's included in your pricey tuition. Join an Intramural sports team. Find the cheapest housing possible. Have roommates. You don't need to watch TV in college - ever.

3. Do not drive unless you live (free) at home and commute to school (not a bad idea).

4. Get a job. It doesn't have to be full-time, but bank that money or put it directly toward non-negotiable college expenses. Going out to eat, partying, and fraternity/sorority dues are not college necessities.

5. Your degree -- regardless of field -- will be largely worthless unless you use the time in college to build a career. Do the unpaid internships now while you can live at home during the summers/breaks. Build a network and experience now. If all you graduate with is a diploma, you've wasted four years.

6. Build your career with campus experiences. If you're, say, a would-be journalist (God help you), you can work for the campus TV, radio, newspaper or magazine outlets. (I'm a media guy and am always stunned when I meet juniors and seniors who aspire to work in this field and have done nothing.)

7. Don't join a fraternity or sorority. Period. If you do, don't complain that you can't find a job and are in debt upon graduating. This is how you chose to spend your time. (And if you still insist, don't put it on your freakin' resume. Do you think an employer wants to hire someone who placed partying as a top priority in college?)

8. Develop the mindset that you're already working in your career while in college. In fact, obsess about it. This is your No.1 priority. Build with internships and freelance work that hopefully will segue naturally into gainful employment upon graduation. Or maybe you'll have built a business to launch yourself.
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panda

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2015, 08:55:12 AM »
2. Live MMM in college. You're poor. Eat in the dining hall. Drink water. Do not enter a Starbucks ever. If you drink alcohol, consume only the ample free booze available in college. Need entertainment? Go to the "free" gym that's included in your pricey tuition. Join an Intramural sports team. Find the cheapest housing possible. Have roommates. You don't need to watch TV in college - ever.
This is MMM, you can't mention entertainment without mentioning the library or libraries that are on campus! Even the small college I went to still had a fairly impressive library on campus with plenty of DVDs and fiction books for entertainment.

AmbitiousCanuck

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2015, 11:43:08 AM »
Alternate title: Self-entitled first-world adults whine about their poor life choices.

I see a common theme in these stories, which is not that these people made one bad life choice by taking out a huge student loan, or choosing an expensive out-of-state university, or choosing a bad major.  No, they made a train-wreck of bad life choices that just keep piling up on top of each other.  I see a lot of whining about how they can't feed their kids... come on, its 2015, we have had birth control for how long?  The kids were just another bad financial decision.  Can't afford house payments?  Why the hell do you own a house when you have not paid off your student loans yet!  Went back to school a second time before the loans from the first round were paid off?  COME ON!!

Sorry, I could forgive one bad financial mistake, but when these people just keep fumbling around with their finances obliviously, I really don't have any sympathy.  I can only imagine what these people would do if their student loans were suddenly forgiven: take out a loan for a new car, take out a mortgage, or quit their job and take out a loan to "finally see the world!"?  Maybe the government should give them free personal finance classes instead of loan forgiveness.
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mulescent

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2015, 01:48:42 PM »
I never feel sorry for college kids. I've taught in college as an adjunct and mentored students too. The formula is not difficult.

1. Choose public in-state college. Do not go private or out-of-state unless scholarships (meaning stuff you don't have to pay back) level the playing field. You say you have a "dream" college? Here's your dream: be debt-free.

2. Live MMM in college. You're poor. Eat in the dining hall. Drink water. Do not enter a Starbucks ever. If you drink alcohol, consume only the ample free booze available in college. Need entertainment? Go to the "free" gym that's included in your pricey tuition. Join an Intramural sports team. Find the cheapest housing possible. Have roommates. You don't need to watch TV in college - ever.

3. Do not drive unless you live (free) at home and commute to school (not a bad idea).

4. Get a job. It doesn't have to be full-time, but bank that money or put it directly toward non-negotiable college expenses. Going out to eat, partying, and fraternity/sorority dues are not college necessities.

5. Your degree -- regardless of field -- will be largely worthless unless you use the time in college to build a career. Do the unpaid internships now while you can live at home during the summers/breaks. Build a network and experience now. If all you graduate with is a diploma, you've wasted four years.

6. Build your career with campus experiences. If you're, say, a would-be journalist (God help you), you can work for the campus TV, radio, newspaper or magazine outlets. (I'm a media guy and am always stunned when I meet juniors and seniors who aspire to work in this field and have done nothing.)

7. Don't join a fraternity or sorority. Period. If you do, don't complain that you can't find a job and are in debt upon graduating. This is how you chose to spend your time. (And if you still insist, don't put it on your freakin' resume. Do you think an employer wants to hire someone who placed partying as a top priority in college?)

8. Develop the mindset that you're already working in your career while in college. In fact, obsess about it. This is your No.1 priority. Build with internships and freelance work that hopefully will segue naturally into gainful employment upon graduation. Or maybe you'll have built a business to launch yourself.

I know this is an old thread, but you nailed it!

Ferrisbueller

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2015, 02:51:07 PM »
I dunno guys, the US spends over $550,000,000,000 on its military each year and yet getting a college degree is enormously expensive. How fucked up is that ? Geopolitical shite wins over your people's well being....way to go.

It seems that the US education model is creating a lot of ....well lets be honest.....indentured slaves.  Before you all carp on about how these people are fools and "I got out of six figure debt on Ramen noodles" remember most people are totally shit with money/finances and always will be.  Maybe basic finance ISN'T taught for a reason.

Rant over.