Author Topic: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....  (Read 96836 times)

Goldielocks

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #300 on: November 20, 2016, 10:06:55 PM »
There are some "professional students" as well, that know how to play the game to keep going to school for 6-9 years, all on student loans, to get the bachelors then the masters.... entirely because it is the only way to defer loan payments is to get more loans...


What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible).   Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately. 

To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school  / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.   

In return, bankruptcy protection for individuals should always exist to protect the worst case scenarios...

This system would allow a reversion back to people working for a couple of years to save money  / get credit history before going to school.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #301 on: November 20, 2016, 11:56:03 PM »
What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible).   Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately. 

To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school  / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.

The lenders had no reason not to lend because the debt is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. What sort of hardship the lender might undergo is of no concern to them. Now that the government is on their side, they can be just as predatory as any loan shark.

There are only two things that keep lenders from gouging unsophisticated people: the threat of loss, and punitive regulations that crack down on predatory lenders. The present American system has neither.
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Goldielocks

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #302 on: November 21, 2016, 12:12:50 AM »
What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible).   Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately. 

To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school  / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.

The lenders had no reason not to lend because the debt is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. What sort of hardship the lender might undergo is of no concern to them. Now that the government is on their side, they can be just as predatory as any loan shark.

There are only two things that keep lenders from gouging unsophisticated people: the threat of loss, and punitive regulations that crack down on predatory lenders. The present American system has neither.

I was unclear -- why the government allowed private loans to students that could not be discharged by bankruptcy..   Even in this country to your north, I remember that news came as a shocker.... (not the government loans being disallowed for bankruptcy, but rather the private loans..)

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #303 on: November 21, 2016, 12:28:14 AM »
What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible).   Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately. 

To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school  / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.

The lenders had no reason not to lend because the debt is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. What sort of hardship the lender might undergo is of no concern to them. Now that the government is on their side, they can be just as predatory as any loan shark.

There are only two things that keep lenders from gouging unsophisticated people: the threat of loss, and punitive regulations that crack down on predatory lenders. The present American system has neither.

I was unclear -- why the government allowed private loans to students that could not be discharged by bankruptcy..   Even in this country to your north, I remember that news came as a shocker.... (not the government loans being disallowed for bankruptcy, but rather the private loans..)

Bribery. Legislation is basically for sale here. It always has been and it probably always will be.
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Linda_Norway

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #304 on: November 21, 2016, 12:33:47 AM »
Here in Norway it has been discussed whether personal financial knowledge shouldn't be a course to be taught in school. I think it should. The younger the better.

mm1970

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #305 on: November 21, 2016, 11:44:01 AM »
Many new interesting stories!  :  )


Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.

Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #306 on: November 21, 2016, 12:42:47 PM »
This one jumped out to me, a 8000 payment only 1000 went to the principle

work for the Federal Aviation Administration. I incurred approximately $50,000 in student debt through the Department of Education and private Lenders to attend DeVry for my Associates Degree. I was placed in default and into the Treasury Offset program by the Dept. of Ed due to their refusal to accept anything less that $395 a month in repayment. I am currently paying through an outside debt collector, but am still considered in default. The DoE intercepts and keeps any tax returns owed to me etc. Now there is a new problem. Occasionally, I am forced to travel for work for training, seminars, etc. I use a government issued travel card for these trips and submit a voucher upon completion of travel. The DoE has begun intercepting the travel reimbursement money and applying it to my debt also. Leaving me to pay for official travel out of pocket. I don't complain when they take my tax return, as it is my money and it is my debt, but they are now stealing money that is not and never was mine. On top of all that, when they take $8,000 of tax returns, just over $1000 goes toward the principle while the rest goes to interest and "fees". This is predatory lending at it's finest.
This one caught my eye, because my recently departed dad was an Air Traffic Controller. I still belong to the FAA Credit Union. Dad got his training courtesy of the GI Bill. When I was in Jr. College (on my own dime + merit-based scholarships + multiple jobs), a classmate mentioned that he planned on becoming an ATC. He was a veteran, with a wife and small kids. I hooked him up with my dad, who guided him through the process. Tom became an ATC without needing an AA.

Requirements may have changed by now, but private school for an AA? Clearly not a well-researched choice. Back to the case cited. Obviously, the Hideously Expensive Private Junior College (aka Sukka Skool) did not require math comprehension. If the guy cited had merely adjusted his tax withholdings, he would have had more than enough to make his payments, with $3260 left over to apply to principal without any additional belt-tightening. Sad. Had he sought out free credit counseling or visited a library or done any Internet research, he could have avoided this mess.

The answer lies, in part, with mandatory financial literacy classes prior to graduation from High School.
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MgoSam

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #307 on: November 21, 2016, 12:50:15 PM »
I am someone who's parents paid for their college education so I really do want to feel bad for people with student loans. I truly do. There are many cases where yeah, I do feel bad for them, but then there are many cases where I honestly wonder WTF they are thinking.

One example is someone that my friend wants to ask out but is completely wary of due to her debts. She's 34 and is a semester away from getting her master's, but told him that she's signed up for another two semesters of courses because "she loves learning." Her entire masters' tuition is student loans (I didn't ask about her undergrad) and her income isn't all that high, nor will it get much higher with a master's degree. My friend is scared away because he thinks she has at least $100k in student debt, which is a deal-breaker for him.

I know a couple that asked for investment advice about 5 years ago. The women was a philosophy major and after they asked what a mutual fund was asked about getting her masters in philosophy. I almost had to excuse myself, combined the couple had about $75k in student loans and were earning about $30k. They also planned to have a baby in the next year.

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #308 on: November 21, 2016, 07:01:10 PM »
Many new interesting stories!  :  )


Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.

Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.

Read some of the stories. MANY are people who just made REALLY stupid decisions and did not put ANY thought into what they were agreeing to. 

MrsPete

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #309 on: November 27, 2016, 04:46:55 PM »
This is great. Was it not also the case that the Puritans believed in evidence of predestination? I have forgotten the proper word for it, but that thing where if you are destined to be saved you will seem saved (by being rich and prosperous) and if you are destined to be damned you will seem damned (by being poor). So poverty is evidence of sinfulness and is therefore not only entirely your fault but also far worse than the apparent material poverty.
You chose the right word:  Predestination.  The idea that you are already either saved or damned, and nothing you do -- positive or negative -- can change that.  Presbyterians and Calvinists believe in Predestination, but most Protestants do not.  The question is, Predestination vs. Free Will.  Other denominations say that God has prior knowledge of what you (and every other individual) will choose, but He doesn't make the choice -- He just knows already what path you will choose.  Yet other denominations say that you can be predestined to salvation ... but if you end up in Hell, it's on you; it wasn't predestined.  I have to say that I can't get my head around that last good-but-not-bad concept at all.   

It's a very difficult topic, and I don't claim to have a good understanding of it.  I figure that if you're seriously thinking it through, God is speaking to you, and I don't see why he'd bother speaking to the damned.  And then there's the practical side of the question:  If you could have an absolute answer to the question of predestination, Would you live your life differently? 

On the other hand, you have another part wrong:  No Biblical evidence ties worldly prosperity (or worldly poverty) to Predestination.  Quite the opposite:  The Bible gives examples of godly men who were rich ... and equally godly men who were poor.  The message is clear:  Your status on earth isn't tied into salvation.  Joel Olsteen (of Sunday morning TV fame) preaches that God WILL prosper His people, but that cannot be supported Biblically. 

Making Cookies

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #310 on: November 27, 2016, 05:33:54 PM »
Many new interesting stories!  :  )


Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.

Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.

Read some of the stories. MANY are people who just made REALLY stupid decisions and did not put ANY thought into what they were agreeing to.

Whether if was a lack of foresight that led to drugs, joining a cult, or huge debt - they are all people who need counseling before they become marriage material.

Way back when I was younger and dating I dodged a couple of those. One was a mess and the relationship was semi-serious but not that long lived yet. Once I realized the breadth of the mess, it was time to move on.

The second one likely would have led to marriage until I saw all her kinds of dysfunction up close. We started out dating locally but ended up dating long distance.

All related to making money (or not i.e. unemployment, procrastination) or how she spent it (wouldn't make careful choices, take care of her stuff, adapt her spending to her income level).

I gently tried to shape her choices a little, make suggestions and when it was not well received it was time to move on.

talltexan

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #311 on: December 01, 2016, 08:58:56 AM »
It seems like your friend is too cautious about romantic relationships. It's not even known how much debt there is, your friend is simply doing a wild estimate based on some flippant comments. She could only have $30 K in debt, which should be nothing to a mustachian.

tomatops

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #312 on: December 01, 2016, 11:03:19 AM »
These stories are somewhat heartbreaking due to the predatory nature of lenders, especially to fund "dreams".

Personal story on my end: I am quite lucky. My parents worked hard and told all of us kids: "You get tuition for one degree from us. That's it. Everything else, you self-finance. If you get a scholarship, it's your money to keep and invest."

So I did the smartest thing possible as an 18-year old, which was go to university and get a theatre degree.

Graduated, and after year 1 of making $400 a week, realized I needed to make more money. Year 2 I worked my butt off and saved every penny I had for an MBA, and self-financed at a very reasonably priced institution that offered paid internship placements as well. Also involved living literally in a basement in a cramped room with no light next to an old washer, dryer, and furnace.

People make mistakes. I certainly did. It's that drive of overcoming hopelessness that is so important and pushing yourself while you are at bubbly-energetic millenial age. I find that drive, if found, carries over into the working world.

A few others mentioned it to: but sacrifice. I basically didn't have nice things ever. And still choose not to.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 11:11:27 AM by tomatops »

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #313 on: December 01, 2016, 04:14:01 PM »
*Snip* a young woman who was complaining loudly about having six-figure student loan debt that she felt the government should forgive.  She revealed that she and her husband hadn't worked in two years and they were surviving on handouts from their parents because "we're proud, we won't go on welfare."  *snip*

Pride goeth before the fall. Seriously, get some f-ing food stamps and a fair amount of those loan payments can go away for a least a short time, and then you can divert the money you would have spent on excessively expensive foodstuffs toward your damned debt. No one to thank but herself.

Joggernot

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #314 on: December 01, 2016, 06:22:24 PM »

*Snip* a young woman who was complaining loudly about having six-figure student loan debt that she felt the government should forgive.  She revealed that she and her husband hadn't worked in two years and they were surviving on handouts from their parents because "we're proud, we won't go on welfare."  *snip*
My good friend's daughter and husband did this to him.  His wife thought it was a good idea...My explanation didn't mean anything to her.  He understood.

shelivesthedream

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #315 on: December 02, 2016, 12:31:05 AM »
This is great. Was it not also the case that the Puritans believed in evidence of predestination? I have forgotten the proper word for it, but that thing where if you are destined to be saved you will seem saved (by being rich and prosperous) and if you are destined to be damned you will seem damned (by being poor). So poverty is evidence of sinfulness and is therefore not only entirely your fault but also far worse than the apparent material poverty.
...   

On the other hand, you have another part wrong:  No Biblical evidence ties worldly prosperity (or worldly poverty) to Predestination. Quite the opposite:  The Bible gives examples of godly men who were rich ... and equally godly men who were poor.  The message is clear:  Your status on earth isn't tied into salvation.  Joel Olsteen (of Sunday morning TV fame) preaches that God WILL prosper His people, but that cannot be supported Biblically.

I don't mean to get all antsy about this, but I never said it was Biblically supported. I have a degree in theology in which I did half my modules in the New Testament (and most of the rest in the Old Testamant and early church) pretty sure I know what's in there. But we did Calvin for one week once in the first year, hence being a little wobbly on predestination. But I knows mah Bible! :)

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #316 on: December 02, 2016, 08:28:31 AM »

*Snip* a young woman who was complaining loudly about having six-figure student loan debt that she felt the government should forgive.  She revealed that she and her husband hadn't worked in two years and they were surviving on handouts from their parents because "we're proud, we won't go on welfare."  *snip*
My good friend's daughter and husband did this to him.  His wife thought it was a good idea...My explanation didn't mean anything to her.  He understood.

I have never understood how a person can be "too proud" to get financial help from the government but not "too proud" to ask for and/or accept the exact same stuff off of family or friends. They're too proud to seek out subsidized housing but not too proud to move into someone else's home. They're too proud to sign up for food stamps or accept food from a food bank, but not too proud to raid a friend's fridge. They're too proud to sign up for subsidized medical care through Medicaid, but not too proud to set up a GoFundMe to bleed everyone who knows them on social media. They're too proud to sign up for temporary cash assistance for needy families, but not too proud to hit their friends up for "loans" that of course will not be repaid.

I'm sure that signing up for a government benefit is hard on the old ego. But many people sacrifice their egos or their pride in order to provide for themselves and their families.

How can anybody feel pride, when they knowingly create a burden that gobbles up a substantial slice of the monthly budget of the people who love them, reducing their standard of living? Taking money or resources from the government, by contrast, creates just a tiny blip in the overall available budget and doesn't require anybody to make major sacrifices in order to support them. But you can't tell that to someone from the more economically privileged section of the entitlement class. They truly believe that it's reasonable and right of them to ask and expect the people around them to make sacrifices in order to help them, while they categorically refuse to make any sacrifices whatsoever to help themselves.
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rawr237

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #317 on: December 02, 2016, 09:50:49 AM »
I'll admit I feel sorry for some of them. I was incredibly lucky to have my degree (private school, no less) paid for by my parents -- plus they provided guidance regarding the connection between career and pay. Having followed in my father's footsteps to become an engineer, it's hard to overstate the positive impact of my parents on my job/life trajectory.

Especially reading about the people with loans that have close relatives get cancer, I can't imagine the emotional/physical/financial toll of supporting that family member. And while kids are generally avoidable, birth control is imperfect even when used properly -- and plenty of user error occurs. I would assume (totally admit I haven't researched this at all) that plenty of unplanned kids end up supported only by a single parent, which increases the financial burden.

Thinking back to high school graduation, having a part-time job taught me some rudimentary financial skills, but did not prepare me for a decision that could cost $200,000 plus interest. (I recognized that my college choice cost my parents quite a lot, but knew they could afford it in a hazy don't-know-how-much-Dad-makes way). Certainly there was information available on the internet, but I hadn't yet experienced a full-time job or had to pay my own bills. My worldview was very much shaped by my family and close friends -- it's possible that in an alternate reality I would be one of those 'complainers'.

Looking at a couple on the site:
#1 - Mother convinces kid to take out a student loan so she can use the money to pay her bills.
#2 - Kid with anxiety disorder gives in to parents/guidance counselor/therapist insisting that they go to college, despite him realizing his interests don't align with college.
More - people with disabled children, people who have acquired disabilities, people who were reassured by the school that they would have a good job when they graduated...

Hopefully they are taking action and not just throwing up their hands. But mostly these posts make me feel gratitude for my good fortune.

Linda_Norway

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #318 on: December 06, 2016, 04:53:30 AM »
I'm sure that signing up for a government benefit is hard on the old ego. But many people sacrifice their egos or their pride in order to provide for themselves and their families.


I don't understand why people's ego is standing in the way for this. Government benefits are something you are entitled to, because you or your parents have paid taxes all these years to contribute to this system. I personally think it is easier to ask for these benefits than asking a relative.

Although the one time when I needed government support for being without a job during 2 months, I felt quite embarrassed, because the benefit office was not designed to encourage you to come there very often. I made sure I came back to work very quickly via a temp office. But at least I didn't bother my relatives with the short problem.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 04:21:14 AM by Linda_Norway »

Goldielocks

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #319 on: December 06, 2016, 11:48:58 AM »
People don't want to ask for additional benefits, like welfare, because it is admitting that they are "the poor".

Asking family for help is just what people do, because in a few years, they may ask for help back...or you would stay with them when they are sick, or ...... just because family owes you...... RIGHT???


----
I don't get it either, the family I was helping refused to get food from food bank (no food stamps here), but accepted the government's tiny amount for their situation, and constantly asked my father for  what ended up to be the equivalent of $900 per month for the last 10 months.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #320 on: December 06, 2016, 02:49:01 PM »
Funny but I'd feel better asking the gov't for money than family. Prob b/c family could shove that back into a conversation for the rest of your life to spite you.


MgoSam

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #321 on: December 06, 2016, 03:16:26 PM »
Funny but I'd feel better asking the gov't for money than family. Prob b/c family could shove that back into a conversation for the rest of your life to spite you.

Yup, and people that use government services can always pretend like they never got a handout like Craig T Nelson did.

MgoSam

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #322 on: December 07, 2016, 11:28:02 AM »
On another site I saw someone posting about wanting to pay their student loans before they are 60, they are 47 right now and it sounds like they wanted a pity-party for having student loans. I don't know this person's backstory, but assuming that they graduated college AND got a masters, there's a good chance they have had 20 full years to pay off their student loan. Maybe there was a series of unforeseen events that forestalled payment, but I can't feel sorry for someone that took out a loan to get a degree that isn't paying enough to justify such an investment.

talltexan

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #323 on: December 08, 2016, 07:14:33 AM »
We're all talking as if the choice of major is what affects the ROI of post-secondary education.

But what if it isn't? What if the types of people who choose non-marketable majors are the same types of people who would fail to generate substantial incomes anyway? What if college simply gives those people an excuse to run up a couple of high-expense/low-income years at the start of what would be a low-wage lifestyle anyway? In that case, isn't it irresponsible to allow those people access to this money-pit?

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #324 on: December 08, 2016, 07:32:28 AM »
We're all talking as if the choice of major is what affects the ROI of post-secondary education.

But what if it isn't? What if the types of people who choose non-marketable majors are the same types of people who would fail to generate substantial incomes anyway?

This is an interesting point. I graduated with a marketing degree and self taught myself programming after graduating so I'm now making a pretty good salary. One of my friends graduated with a linguistics degree and is now a data scientist at a major e-retailer.

Come to think of it, I don't know if these two examples support or hurt your point haha

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #325 on: December 08, 2016, 08:10:50 AM »
I do find it shocking that an 18-year old, or 22-year-old, can borrow as much for an education based on theoretical future earnings from a theoretical degree, with an easy application, as I did in my 40s for a mortgage on my home that involved six weeks of paperwork by the bank, a ton of documentation and a major downpayment, and demonstrating a long and excellent credit history (that the bank STILL said was on the skimpy side because I was too conservative about credit cards). And the bank has something to take back if I screw up and don't pay!

Amazing how eager they are to give out debt when you can't get rid of it thru bankruptcy.

That's the biggest issue, really. When you can't get rid of the debt thru bankruptcy, and they can garnish wages, then there are no consequences to banks/gov't for giving out an irresponsible loan. The fact that people can just throw unlimited student loans at education means that the usual supply/demand check on the price of education goes completely out the window. No reason to not increase prices when it'll get paid regardless. In fact, I had a marketing prof at my alma mater say that if they didn't increase tuition enough, it might give the impression that the school wasn't very good, if the price became too low compared with similar schools.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #326 on: December 08, 2016, 10:09:36 AM »
Or unless you actually want to get a degree in four years. My cousin enrolled at a state school (UC Santa Barbara). With funding cuts, the classes are so overcrowded that it's almost impossible to get into required courses. Because of this it would have taken her over six years to get her "four year" degree. So she transferred to a private school where she could actually take her classes.

Even at a private school that's an issue.  I did my 4 year degree in 5 years and at the end of that 5 years there was still a class in my program they'd never even offered once!  Last semester I only had 1 real class but had 2 waivers, and one pass by testing out due to class availability issues throughout the years...

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #327 on: December 08, 2016, 11:00:22 AM »
Or unless you actually want to get a degree in four years. My cousin enrolled at a state school (UC Santa Barbara). With funding cuts, the classes are so overcrowded that it's almost impossible to get into required courses. Because of this it would have taken her over six years to get her "four year" degree. So she transferred to a private school where she could actually take her classes.

Even at a private school that's an issue.  I did my 4 year degree in 5 years and at the end of that 5 years there was still a class in my program they'd never even offered once!  Last semester I only had 1 real class but had 2 waivers, and one pass by testing out due to class availability issues throughout the years...

Most schools have some mechanism to challenge courses that aren't listed: you get the materials, teach yourself, take the final exam and pay a hefty fee, which in some schools can be the same as the requisite tuition, lab, and technology fees for those course hours. It's not cheap but in many cases it's the only option when the schools require you to have a class but either refuse to teach it or make it logistically impossible to attend all of your required classes due to simultaneous scheduling, etc. Classroom learning really isn't the most efficient way to get information into your head anyway. The only thing classrooms are good for is reviewing the information you have already studied or introducing new things that aren't already in the book (which the instructor generally wrote and requires you to buy new because only the most recent whizbang edition is acceptable).
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Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #328 on: December 16, 2016, 12:41:43 PM »
Many new interesting stories!  :  )


Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.

Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.

Read some of the stories.  Most of them are just stupid people who had no problem taking the $$$$ when offered. Many even signed up for more $$$$ when they knew it would take the rest of their lives to pay back what they already borrowed.

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #329 on: January 06, 2017, 10:15:57 AM »
There are a lot of ways to attend college without getting six figure loans and I'm not sure how many different ways there are to say this.  I'll never be of the mindset that teenagers should be held totally blameless for their actions, but thats my opinion.  Nevertheless a lot of these stories were from older people who got themselves into debt and could never pull themselves out.  Even people 30, 40, 50 years old were getting themselves into debt they can't climb out of.  Telling people its not their fault isn't going to solve the problem.




I concur!

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #330 on: January 06, 2017, 11:23:11 AM »
Funny but I'd feel better asking the gov't for money than family. Prob b/c family could shove that back into a conversation for the rest of your life to spite you.

Yup, and people that use government services can always pretend like they never got a handout like Craig T Nelson did.
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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #331 on: January 06, 2017, 11:56:21 AM »
My parents are a bit thrifty but not really mustachian (they did just buy a really expensive huge motor home).  One of the best things they did do for me when picking out a college was lay out all the financial aid packages and clearly show what I would owe after 4 years at all the schools I was accepted to.  My dream school was expensive and in the end I couldn't reconcile my "dream" with what it would cost me, so I chose a cheaper in state school. 

Very happy with my decision, ended up switching majors and careers to one with better options and graduated with <5k in debt.  Virtually no private college is worth the cost except very few "name recognition" schools *Harvard, Yale etc...)

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #332 on: January 06, 2017, 11:57:31 AM »
Many new interesting stories!  :  )


Wow, lots of sympathy from me based on predatory lending.

Kind of horrible to poke fun when there's obviously predatory lending involved.

Read some of the stories.  Most of them are just stupid people who had no problem taking the $$$$ when offered. Many even signed up for more $$$$ when they knew it would take the rest of their lives to pay back what they already borrowed.

Your empathy is touching.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #333 on: January 06, 2017, 11:59:57 AM »
Funny but I'd feel better asking the gov't for money than family. Prob b/c family could shove that back into a conversation for the rest of your life to spite you.

Yup, and people that use government services can always pretend like they never got a handout like Craig T Nelson did.
I had to Google this. Interesting!

Yeah, it helps to explain the cognitive dissonance some people have.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #334 on: January 11, 2017, 06:22:56 AM »
Yesterday I heard a person who is working approx 40% and receiving a fee from the government for not being able to work full time. She has been telling us earlier that she owns little money to come by, but that her husband is very supportive in finding solutions. But she told us about feeling very uncomfortable about accepting money from the government. "When I sit at the hair dresser to add blond stripes to my hair, I feel guilty about spending government money on this.". That makes me think: If you feel guilty about spending the extra government money on stuff that is not very necessary in life, then you should not have spent it at all. Then it should rather have been spent on healthy food or put in a savings account, in my opinion. I mean, why prioritize stripes in your hair if your husband is helping out to find solutions to come by with little money? I also have understood this woman trains at a training center. That is not cheap either.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #335 on: January 11, 2017, 02:04:59 PM »
WOW.

Anyone want to speculate what portion of the population makes these sort of short sighted choices? i find as I get older the more cynical my assessment of the general population becomes.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #336 on: January 12, 2017, 04:27:49 AM »
My parents are a bit thrifty but not really mustachian (they did just buy a really expensive huge motor home).  One of the best things they did do for me when picking out a college was lay out all the financial aid packages and clearly show what I would owe after 4 years at all the schools I was accepted to.  My dream school was expensive and in the end I couldn't reconcile my "dream" with what it would cost me, so I chose a cheaper in state school. 

Very happy with my decision, ended up switching majors and careers to one with better options and graduated with <5k in debt.  Virtually no private college is worth the cost except very few "name recognition" schools *Harvard, Yale etc...)

Our son attends a private college.  He received scholarships which are renewable, making it just as affordable as a state school.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #337 on: January 12, 2017, 08:19:17 AM »
Not sure if this gem has been posted yet...

Quote
I took out $25000 of federal loans (some subsidized and some not) for a Master's degree in Education in 1993 so that I could continue to teach and at some point not have to have a second job to make ends meet. Silly me. I have paid back over $35000 and still owe $20000. I have paid off 3 cars, each around $25000, in that same time frame. Something is WRONG.

No SHIT SOMETHING IS WRONG. Your DUMB ASS has bought and paid for three new cars in the time frame since you've borrowed your student loans. Idiot!
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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #338 on: January 12, 2017, 09:53:08 AM »
Looking back, I fully dodged many financial bullets out of dumb luck, including student loans.  I started college at 14 (long story), getting my bachelors at 19, and taking 1 more year of masters work (didn't finish it).

I took out loans to the tune of $14k total over 6 years.  University of Alaska Fairbanks was a pretty cheap school.  During the third year I was working student jobs and didn't need further loans.  But I had no real concept at the time about long term thinking and didn't have a clue about what the payments would be despite being an engineering student with lots of math background.  I worked the student jobs because it was a "good" thing to do I was told, and it was.  There was a lot of chatter from various sources that paying for college was "good" debt.  Hell, I had no idea how much money I was likely to make with my degree.

In hindsight I was a naive idiot in so many ways, and $14k ended up being no big deal to pay off over a few years.  I could easily have come out of school with several times that without realizing what I had gotten myself into.

My mother was very frugal, and I tended to be cheap (and only years later understood the difference).  But I was cheap out of rote instilled habit as opposed to having a proper life philosophy.  Teenagers starting college are largely naive idiots as well, especially about financial things.  For many aping their parents until they figure out the "real" world is all they have to go on, and it can be a double edged sword.

So I sit on both sides of the fence.  I am all for personal responsibility and expecting people to payback their loans.  I also readily agree that way too many loans are crooked and should never have been made in the first place.  Non-chargeable loans should never be allowed.  High interest loans should never be allowed.  If you can't find a way to loan money with the chance of default at a fair interest rate the loan should simply not be made, full stop.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #339 on: January 12, 2017, 10:06:34 AM »
Teenagers starting college are largely naive idiots as well, especially about financial things.  For many aping their parents until they figure out the "real" world is all they have to go on, and it can be a double edged sword.
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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #340 on: January 12, 2017, 10:54:18 AM »
I'm lucky that I never got sucked into college debt. I didn't even know they existed when I graduated highschool when I was 17.

But the script goes something like this. Kids have teachers, parents, and the culture telling them that college is a sure path to success. At the same time, kids are told that following their passion is the highest good in life. And of course, college is portrayed as a fun time with lots of partying and shenanigans and sex. Who wouldn't want that?

So kids pick a degree that sounds cool or sounds like something they might be interested in. Of course, colleges have helpfully set up many 'fun' degree tracks. Money is made readily available to fund all this.

Why do people take the money? Well, they "must" go to college. Only deadbeats don't go to college. You might end up as a plumber or a roughneck if you didn't! And they wouldn't lend you money if you couldn't pay it back, right? Besides, pursuing your passion is more important than money? Besides, our parents had good jobs and nice house and shiny cars so we'll be fine too.

And then they graduate. Jobs are no where to be found, but they spent all that time and money on their degree so they don't want to look at other things. Of course, there is massive pressure from our consumer culture to live a certain lifestyle. That's what we've freed ourselves from here, but it can be very difficult to do, especially if you're not a very conscientious person.

One other thing. To many people, paying these debts must seem a Herculean task, and at those interest rates, it is. The very thought scares the hell out of me. My wife has $7k from hair dressing school and that's bad enough.

So I think the solution here isn't to mock people for doing what they were told to do by going to college, damn the debt. The solution is to stop using laws and government money to subsidize this nonsense, and to change the way we talk about college.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #341 on: January 15, 2017, 05:45:02 PM »
I feel bad for some of the cases, but most are self inflicted. I paid off nearly $45k in two years after graduation. We made only $74k and $45k in years 1 and 2 respectively and on top saved nearly $5k in retirement accounts. Looking back, I had strong motivation to pay off the debts, but there was wastage. I bought a used luxary car from my first employer when I started the job and it was an expensive car to maintain.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #342 on: January 16, 2017, 10:13:50 AM »
Not sure if this gem has been posted yet...

Quote
I took out $25000 of federal loans (some subsidized and some not) for a Master's degree in Education in 1993 so that I could continue to teach and at some point not have to have a second job to make ends meet. Silly me. I have paid back over $35000 and still owe $20000. I have paid off 3 cars, each around $25000, in that same time frame. Something is WRONG.

No SHIT SOMETHING IS WRONG. Your DUMB ASS has bought and paid for three new cars in the time frame since you've borrowed your student loans. Idiot!

Haha - Paid off $75,000 in car loans but can't pay off $25k in Federal Loans. 

I wonder how many people are going to try and let their loans stay around as long as possible hoping that one day their loans will be forgiven.

I had student loans and was comfortable with the low payment.  For about 6-7 years, I just kept paying that monthly debt.  Then, as I became more serious about my financial future, I ended up changing my perspective.  At that time, I was using the same amount of money that I had in loans to buy and sell stocks.  One day, I figured the guaranteed return of not paying money towards my student loans outweighed what I could potentially make in this amazing bull market from a psychological standpoint.   I emptied the brokerage account, paid off the loan, and have been happy with that decision. 

Yes, that money in the brokerage would have made me more money in this market, but it is not life changing as to how I feel after paying off that debt.   Interestingly enough, I am not even a debt adverse type of person.  Borrow money at <2% for a car?  How much of the car purchase can I borrow? haha

A lot of people have put student loans into the same category as cell phone payments.  They are just something that we will live with on a monthly basis.  I was in that boat for years and had the mindset of "This is my net income? Well, let me subtract $XXX for my student loans to find my real take home."

Now I am facing the big issue of, "Stop building an excessive financial cushion and continue to divert that $XXX from student loans to a brokerage account." 
Just here to feel guilty about my purchases which are often irrational, wants, and in an atypical budget.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #343 on: January 16, 2017, 10:55:11 AM »
What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible).   Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately. 

To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school  / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.

The lenders had no reason not to lend because the debt is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. What sort of hardship the lender might undergo is of no concern to them. Now that the government is on their side, they can be just as predatory as any loan shark.

There are only two things that keep lenders from gouging unsophisticated people: the threat of loss, and punitive regulations that crack down on predatory lenders. The present American system has neither.

I was unclear -- why the government allowed private loans to students that could not be discharged by bankruptcy..   Even in this country to your north, I remember that news came as a shocker.... (not the government loans being disallowed for bankruptcy, but rather the private loans..)

Bribery. Legislation is basically for sale here. It always has been and it probably always will be.

Wrong.

When I was in college in the 1970s and early 80s, the default rate on student loans was extremely high.   Basically, too many students are doing exactly what some people on these forums have advocated is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.  They racked up big student loans and then immediately declared bankruptcy.  They never had the slightest intention of repaying those loans.

That widescale behavior threatened the entire process.   If it wasn't stopped, no one would be willing to lend money to the honest students who really needed those loans to get ahead.

So the law was changed to protect honest people from those students who would defraud the system.

What wasn't anticipated was that so many Americans are so clueless about money that they would rack up $190,000 in student loans to get a degree that would enable them to get a job that paid $25,000 a year.


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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #344 on: January 16, 2017, 12:00:40 PM »
What I did not understand, is why the private loans to students were allowed (with no bankruptcy possible).   Only people that are financially solvent to repay should get loans privately. 

To my mind the only possible exception is doctors or other high value professions in their last year of school  / residency that are extremely likely to be making big money very soon.

The lenders had no reason not to lend because the debt is impossible to discharge in bankruptcy. What sort of hardship the lender might undergo is of no concern to them. Now that the government is on their side, they can be just as predatory as any loan shark.

There are only two things that keep lenders from gouging unsophisticated people: the threat of loss, and punitive regulations that crack down on predatory lenders. The present American system has neither.

I was unclear -- why the government allowed private loans to students that could not be discharged by bankruptcy..   Even in this country to your north, I remember that news came as a shocker.... (not the government loans being disallowed for bankruptcy, but rather the private loans..)

Bribery. Legislation is basically for sale here. It always has been and it probably always will be.

Wrong.

When I was in college in the 1970s and early 80s, the default rate on student loans was extremely high.   Basically, too many students are doing exactly what some people on these forums have advocated is a perfectly acceptable thing to do.  They racked up big student loans and then immediately declared bankruptcy.  They never had the slightest intention of repaying those loans.

That widescale behavior threatened the entire process.   If it wasn't stopped, no one would be willing to lend money to the honest students who really needed those loans to get ahead.

So the law was changed to protect honest people from those students who would defraud the system.

What wasn't anticipated was that so many Americans are so clueless about money that they would rack up $190,000 in student loans to get a degree that would enable them to get a job that paid $25,000 a year.

This could have been accomplished just as easily by allowing lenders to qualify borrowers and adjust interest rates based on a borrower's projected ability to repay. Banks are already extremely good at doing that. They do it all the time when approving people for mortgages and other loans that are actually secured by something.

Example: Little Suzy Snowflake wants to major in rhythmic basket-weaving appreciation. Although it is offered as a major at a thousand and ninety-five different universities, the only available jobs in the field are for people who take the program all the way through to a PhD and who subsequently teach it. The probability of making it into a graduate program is about 5% and competition is fierce, but after completing the PhD a professor has a 10% chance of earning about $30k per year working as an adjunct professor. She is accepted into the prestigious Ben Dover University on the other side of the country, where she expects to spend $95,000 per year on tuition and other expenses including accommodations. Her completed FAFSA shows a combined parental income of only $75,000 from all sources, they have saved $80,000 for Little Suzy's education, and she has perhaps $190 in personal savings after high school because although she works she blows every penny she earns on fast food and Abercrombie. After her first term of university is complete, where she takes four courses instead of the traditional five, her grade point average is a stunning 1.9 out of a possible 4.0.

I ask you: if you were a loan officer, would you approve this loan?

Also, if you were a legislator of the uncorrupted persuasion, would you write a law to help protect a bank that did?
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MrsPete

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #345 on: February 10, 2017, 11:18:41 AM »
I'm lucky that I never got sucked into college debt. I didn't even know they existed when I graduated highschool when I was 17.

But the script goes something like this. Kids have teachers, parents, and the culture telling them that college is a sure path to success. At the same time, kids are told that following their passion is the highest good in life. And of course, college is portrayed as a fun time with lots of partying and shenanigans and sex. Who wouldn't want that?

So kids pick a degree that sounds cool or sounds like something they might be interested in. Of course, colleges have helpfully set up many 'fun' degree tracks. Money is made readily available to fund all this.

Why do people take the money? Well, they "must" go to college. Only deadbeats don't go to college. You might end up as a plumber or a roughneck if you didn't! And they wouldn't lend you money if you couldn't pay it back, right? Besides, pursuing your passion is more important than money? Besides, our parents had good jobs and nice house and shiny cars so we'll be fine too.

And then they graduate. Jobs are no where to be found, but they spent all that time and money on their degree so they don't want to look at other things. Of course, there is massive pressure from our consumer culture to live a certain lifestyle. That's what we've freed ourselves from here, but it can be very difficult to do, especially if you're not a very conscientious person.

One other thing. To many people, paying these debts must seem a Herculean task, and at those interest rates, it is. The very thought scares the hell out of me. My wife has $7k from hair dressing school and that's bad enough.

So I think the solution here isn't to mock people for doing what they were told to do by going to college, damn the debt. The solution is to stop using laws and government money to subsidize this nonsense, and to change the way we talk about college.
There's a lot of truth in what you're saying.  "Everyone" is pushed towards college.  You didn't particularly excel in high school, skipped a lot, took the easiest classes possible, have no real direction ... of course you should go to college!  A great deal of this is our increasingly liberal society.  You just can't tell anyone that he or she CAN'T or SHOULDN'T aim high, live the dream ... even when it just isn't sensible.  So everyone is pushed in this direction, even when it's clearly not the right choice.


Mezzie

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #346 on: February 11, 2017, 07:38:33 AM »
Our city offers the first year of community college free for our graduates. It's an amazing deal, especially since our community college will GE certify students who complete X courses and guarantee admission into our local state college.

So what do our college advisors on campus do? Completely ignore this fantastic deal, demonize community colleges as for "losers", talk up how any dream college is possible with loans, and never talk about things like interest or how long it will take to pay back loans.

I talk about my wonderful community college experiences all the time to try and balance things out, but it's no surprise that so many poor students (most of my students have parents with no college experience) and their parents get roped in by this glamorous loan-funded life that they're peddled.

I remember one student who lost her acceptance to an expensive four-year college because she got a D in a required class second semester of senior year. She was a good kid who'd gotten burnt out at the end. Anyway, her grade meant she'd have to go to (gasp!) community college, and she came to me crying that her life was essentially over because no one ever graduates that goes to community college (this is something the college advisors teach, forgetting that people like me who go for enrichment and fun and have no plans to graduate -- again -- skew the statistics down). She felt like she didn't even deserve to walk at graduation. I told her that D was the best thing that had ever happened to her, showed her the financial numbers comparing the community to state college path vs her loan-funded private college path and also pointed out that a lot of the adjunct professors at the expensive schools also teach at our community college, but in smaller classes where you can actually get help.

She's doing just fine. :)

On another note:

I took out a small loan while I was student teaching which I paid back immediately upon becoming employed, and before I could even get the loan paperwork from the college, I had to attend a (free) six-hour college financial literacy class. I didn't need it, but most of the people there were freshmen and their parents and had no idea the difference between subsidized and unsubsidized loans or how to get scholarships or work study. The class was an incredible service to them. Do public colleges not practice this anymore?
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Tasty Pinecones

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #347 on: February 11, 2017, 09:45:57 AM »
The university I graduated from has a financial workshop for anyone that wants to come visit.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #348 on: February 11, 2017, 11:59:29 AM »
Our city offers the first year of community college free for our graduates. It's an amazing deal, especially since our community college will GE certify students who complete X courses and guarantee admission into our local state college.

So what do our college advisors on campus do? Completely ignore this fantastic deal, demonize community colleges as for "losers", talk up how any dream college is possible with loans, and never talk about things like interest or how long it will take to pay back loans.

I talk about my wonderful community college experiences all the time to try and balance things out, but it's no surprise that so many poor students (most of my students have parents with no college experience) and their parents get roped in by this glamorous loan-funded life that they're peddled.

I remember one student who lost her acceptance to an expensive four-year college because she got a D in a required class second semester of senior year. She was a good kid who'd gotten burnt out at the end. Anyway, her grade meant she'd have to go to (gasp!) community college, and she came to me crying that her life was essentially over because no one ever graduates that goes to community college (this is something the college advisors teach, forgetting that people like me who go for enrichment and fun and have no plans to graduate -- again -- skew the statistics down). She felt like she didn't even deserve to walk at graduation. I told her that D was the best thing that had ever happened to her, showed her the financial numbers comparing the community to state college path vs her loan-funded private college path and also pointed out that a lot of the adjunct professors at the expensive schools also teach at our community college, but in smaller classes where you can actually get help.

She's doing just fine. :)

On another note:

I took out a small loan while I was student teaching which I paid back immediately upon becoming employed, and before I could even get the loan paperwork from the college, I had to attend a (free) six-hour college financial literacy class. I didn't need it, but most of the people there were freshmen and their parents and had no idea the difference between subsidized and unsubsidized loans or how to get scholarships or work study. The class was an incredible service to them. Do public colleges not practice this anymore?

When you say "college advisors on campus", do you mean people who come to high schools to speak to students, or do you mean the school career and guidance counselors? It seems to me that anyone employed by the school could be set straight, and invitees who mock or put down community college need not be invited back.
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Mezzie

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #349 on: February 11, 2017, 03:10:44 PM »
Both. And there has been some setting straight, but we high schools are ranked in part by how many 4-year colleges our students get into which causes quite a conflict of interest for some.
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/preparing-for-forced-early-retirement-due-to-disability/

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Join my Shopkick team so we can start a Vespa gang (or you can get more practical gift cards...if you think those are better than a Vespa for some reason): https://app.shopkick.com/r/3eNYBE