Author Topic: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....  (Read 92192 times)

dots45

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #250 on: February 17, 2016, 05:44:23 PM »
Indeed it is hard to feel sorry for most of these people and stories.  College IS expensive, but that doesn't mean you have to graduate with six figure debt with a liberal arts degree.  As a side note I don't also like how too many kids are pushed to go to an expensive four year college and there should be more focus on trade skills or getting a cheaper AA at a community college and then transferring.

But, I remember I was in senior year of HS and toured a college away from home.  Got home and sat down with my parents.  I come from a middle class family and while I was a pretty good student in high school, I was in that no mans land of not landing much in the way of scholarships or grants but with my parents not having a ton extra.  My parents explained to me that I could live for free with them and attend college locally and graduate with a smaller burden and they could help more living at home, or I could have the traditional college experience for $50k-$100k in loans.  Maybe its part of taking a lot of business & accounting courses in high school, but at 17 I was able to calculate the cost of going to college, the interest rates of loans (at the time 7%+), the fact that unsubsidized loans would grow,  that tuition always seems to be going up, and that I'd likely graduate close to six figures of debt if I go away for college.  I get that many 17 year old may not know the specifics of all aspects of loans, but you'd think they could realize $100,000 is a lot of money and that amount would need to be repaid at some point.

I ended up attending school locally and worked F/T the first year of college.  I burned out a bit after that job and didn't work a whole lot more during college.  I didn't make the greatest decisions throughout college in terms of preparing for a career, but the one thing I did was be very frugal. I graduated with a debt in the lowish 5 figures, and I paid that off a year after finding full time work after college.

I've met so many people that are just unwilling to sacrifice anything.  And its rarely one bad decision on its own.  As other people have said, it can be a chain effect.  Maybe its racking up college debt, then taking out a high interest car loan, on top of having kids and buying all the latest and greatest electronics while taking luxurious vacations.  When I hear people who make these decisions cry poverty, it falls on my deaf ears.  I feel sorry for the people who work hard, sacrifice, are frugal, and still struggle...but not for those who want everything for nothing and feel like they are entitled to a bail out because of poor financial decision making.

CATman

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #251 on: February 17, 2016, 09:37:47 PM »
Indeed it is hard to feel sorry for most of these people and stories.  College IS expensive, but that doesn't mean you have to graduate with six figure debt with a liberal arts degree.  As a side note I don't also like how too many kids are pushed to go to an expensive four year college and there should be more focus on trade skills or getting a cheaper AA at a community college and then transferring.

But, I remember I was in senior year of HS and toured a college away from home.  Got home and sat down with my parents.  I come from a middle class family and while I was a pretty good student in high school, I was in that no mans land of not landing much in the way of scholarships or grants but with my parents not having a ton extra.  My parents explained to me that I could live for free with them and attend college locally and graduate with a smaller burden and they could help more living at home, or I could have the traditional college experience for $50k-$100k in loans.  Maybe its part of taking a lot of business & accounting courses in high school, but at 17 I was able to calculate the cost of going to college, the interest rates of loans (at the time 7%+), the fact that unsubsidized loans would grow,  that tuition always seems to be going up, and that I'd likely graduate close to six figures of debt if I go away for college.  I get that many 17 year old may not know the specifics of all aspects of loans, but you'd think they could realize $100,000 is a lot of money and that amount would need to be repaid at some point.

I ended up attending school locally and worked F/T the first year of college.  I burned out a bit after that job and didn't work a whole lot more during college.  I didn't make the greatest decisions throughout college in terms of preparing for a career, but the one thing I did was be very frugal. I graduated with a debt in the lowish 5 figures, and I paid that off a year after finding full time work after college.

I've met so many people that are just unwilling to sacrifice anything.  And its rarely one bad decision on its own.  As other people have said, it can be a chain effect.  Maybe its racking up college debt, then taking out a high interest car loan, on top of having kids and buying all the latest and greatest electronics while taking luxurious vacations.  When I hear people who make these decisions cry poverty, it falls on my deaf ears.  I feel sorry for the people who work hard, sacrifice, are frugal, and still struggle...but not for those who want everything for nothing and feel like they are entitled to a bail out because of poor financial decision making.

+1 I totally agree

Captain and Mrs Slow

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #252 on: February 18, 2016, 10:32:35 AM »
this thread is a great example of what I dis-like about this forum, the Fox news GOP blame the victim  mentality that peaks it head out occasionally. Why is it nothing is ever said about the policies that are behind the soaring cost of college and who benefits, just victim blaming. This is what is behind the rise of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2016, 11:34:00 AM by Captain and Mrs Slow »
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mm1970

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #253 on: February 18, 2016, 01:09:37 PM »
Quote
But, I remember I was in senior year of HS and toured a college away from home.  Got home and sat down with my parents.  I come from a middle class family and while I was a pretty good student in high school, I was in that no mans land of not landing much in the way of scholarships or grants but with my parents not having a ton extra.  My parents explained to me that I could live for free with them and attend college locally and graduate with a smaller burden and they could help more living at home, or I could have the traditional college experience for $50k-$100k in loans.  Maybe its part of taking a lot of business & accounting courses in high school, but at 17 I was able to calculate the cost of going to college, the interest rates of loans (at the time 7%+), the fact that unsubsidized loans would grow,  that tuition always seems to be going up, and that I'd likely graduate close to six figures of debt if I go away for college.  I get that many 17 year old may not know the specifics of all aspects of loans, but you'd think they could realize $100,000 is a lot of money and that amount would need to be repaid at some point.

You see, I think it's great that your parents had that discussion with you.  Some parents do, and some don't.  My husband's parents did - but then, my husband's dad went to college, and had to pay back loans.  So he had experience.  They basically told him "we cannot afford it unless you take that ROTC scholarship".  (Then went on to take out a second mortgage for his sister.  But I digress.

My parents were separated and my dad did not believe that girls should go to college.  My mother supported my decision to go, but simply said "out of state just cannot happen, you need in state grants".  My mother worked at a bank though, so I had that going for me.

My niece and nephew had parents (my sis and BIL) who explained cost of college and how to pay, and as a result, my nephew went to an academy and my niece finished in 3 years.  But my BIL went to college, so he was familiar with it.

On the flip side, not everyone was that lucky.  I know kids whose parents did not go to college, and regretted it.  So they pushed their kids to go because "it's a ticket to a better job".  Well, in their generation, that was true.  But it's not necessarily true anymore.  And as they didn't go, they couldn't give their children guidance on how to choose a school, how to pay for it, and what a reasonably expected starting salary would be for a particular major.  My family was in many ways, firmly blue collar and practical.  Some families honestly don't know enough to say "well, what are you going to do with an English degree?"  (Not that English degrees aren't useful, but you need to think about it - are you going to teach, or write, or ???, and how much do you expect to get paid?)

Note: I didn't take business or accounting in HS.

Quote
I ended up attending school locally and worked F/T the first year of college.  I burned out a bit after that job and didn't work a whole lot more during college.  I didn't make the greatest decisions throughout college in terms of preparing for a career, but the one thing I did was be very frugal. I graduated with a debt in the lowish 5 figures, and I paid that off a year after finding full time work after college.

That's great.  I ended up with debt in the low-5 figures too, but it took me 4 years to pay it off, not a year.

Quote
I've met so many people that are just unwilling to sacrifice anything.  And its rarely one bad decision on its own.  As other people have said, it can be a chain effect.  Maybe its racking up college debt, then taking out a high interest car loan, on top of having kids and buying all the latest and greatest electronics while taking luxurious vacations.  When I hear people who make these decisions cry poverty, it falls on my deaf ears.  I feel sorry for the people who work hard, sacrifice, are frugal, and still struggle...but not for those who want everything for nothing and feel like they are entitled to a bail out because of poor financial decision making.

I see these people occasionally too.   But you know, it's a fine line.  I know a few doctors who went this route...loans, house, kids, etc., but of course, most of them are doing fine.  Honestly, some of it is luck - someone majoring in math or accounting - the difference between graduating in a recession vs. not can be a huge difference in earnings over a lifetime.  (Say, the difference between graduating in 1991 vs. 1992 or 1993).

What I've seen MORE of is people who truly thought that getting a degree was the only way to a better job, because that's what their parents tell them, and the high schools tell them.  But neither of these groups give them the tools to figure out how to pay for it. 

It's all fine and good that there are some 17 year olds who are mature enough and lucky enough to make good decisions.  But to berate and poke fun at the rest?  It seems ridiculously cruel.  While we are at it, why don't we make fun at the fat kid whose parents never bought them a vegetable.  You know, they are perfectly capable of reading about how to eat better, even if they don't make the decisions in the household.

What I see now at my tech company - hiring people with engineering degrees as technicians, because we can (during the recession).  Those awesome starting salaries you read about?  We paid our guys $16 an hour, in So Cal, ha ha ha suckers!! They were lucky to find a job.  We pay barely above minimum wage to work as our receptionist and to learn our accounts payable.  But we *require* a college degree, which doesn't come free.  Note: these jobs NEWLY require a degree, they didn't always.  Now we get to let kids get into debt, to even keep the status quo jobs.

When there are changes in economies (such as recessions), and changes in the job front (such as outsourcing)... it looks like the feeder path (education) is a little bit slow to respond.  So you have people going IN to the feeder path of college, and taking out loans ... but they come out to a changed world, in many respects.  My college buddy didn't expect to graduate in a recession, and spend a year + working as a temp in the DC area, because that was literally the only job she could find.  I remember when our alma mater called asking for a donation (we were also roommates after college).  She gave them the exact date when she would finish paying off her loans, and told them to call back on that date. 

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #254 on: February 19, 2016, 03:51:05 AM »
this thread is a great example of what I dis-like about this forum, the Fox news GOP blame the victim  mentality that peaks it head out occasionally. Why is it nothing is ever said about the policies that are behind the soaring cost of college and who benefits, just victim blaming. This is what is behind the rise of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders.

I agree, the government should stop pushing up the cost of college by providing a nearly-unlimited pool of money to prospective students that traps them in debt for years afterwards.

nancyjnelson

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #255 on: February 19, 2016, 08:26:32 AM »
I do feel sorry for today's young people.  Yes, college isn't for everybody, but increasingly one finds that a college degree is a prerequisite to having your application considered for jobs that previously were successfully filled by high school graduates.  One example is a friend of mine who decided that he would be happier in a minimum-wage job as a salesperson in a bookstore.  He had a bachelor's degree in English literature, as well as half a dozen years of customer service experience, including some supervisory experience.  When he applied for a job at a bookstore, he has told he didn't have the qualifications necessary for this minimum-wage position - they wanted someone with a master's degree in English literature (or some related field).  Sadly, this being Minneapolis, I'm sure they were able to get it.  And while this might be an extreme example, I believe the general trend holds true.

I agree with the person who commented that student loans are a form of indentured servitude - overwhelming debt is a great device for keeping people servile and desperate to keep jobs even though the work conditions are crappy.

dots45

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #256 on: February 19, 2016, 10:34:29 AM »
There is a lot about the system I don't like or agree with as I mentioned, and I think personal finance courses should be mandatory in high school.  Kids should be more educated overall when it comes to money.  Changes should be made to help tuition costs from spiraling out of control. 

And I don't look down on all people who have a large amount of college debt.  There are many situations where it can end up being a good choice.  But at the  end of the day there has to be some personal responsibility in all of this, and I absolutely do not feel bad for the people who spend six figures going to an out of state school to get an arts degree, then go complain that they shouldn't have to pay back the loans.

I will have to disagree in that I don't see this as blaming the victim.  And reading through the stories some of these decisions were made by older adults too who went back to school.  What about those people?  Or parents who co-sign loans for their children. 

I'm not a fan of people who don't take responsibility for their actions, but I'm not out to berate everyone.  Given the thread title and what forum its in, it shouldn't be surprising to see responses questioning these individuals decisions.  And what about kids who get arrested, pregnant, do drugs, or other poor decisions at 17.  Should they get a pass as well because maybe they grew up in a bad neighborhood and didn't get a lot of guidance?  Where do you draw the line when it comes to taking responsibility?

mm1970

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #257 on: February 19, 2016, 11:22:29 AM »
Quote
And what about kids who get arrested, pregnant, do drugs, or other poor decisions at 17.  Should they get a pass as well because maybe they grew up in a bad neighborhood and didn't get a lot of guidance?  Where do you draw the line when it comes to taking responsibility

Well, in a sense, yes.  They should get a pass.

Should you be able to reasonably compare the following:
My friend's kid, whose parents both have PhDs in engineering, who graduated at 17 and went to Yale, then med school, and is now an OB?
Some other inner city kid, with a single mom, on welfare, in an unsafe area with drug addicts on the corner.

Oh why does that inner city kid not pick them up from their bootstraps!!

Or why don't we compare:
My cousin, who got pregnant at 17 and had a baby at 18.  Who...lived at home with mom, got married, went to the local college.  Husband got a job.  Eventually went on to get a PhD in physics and apply to be an astronaut.  Her kid is on full scholarship to engineering school now.  Note: small town kid, very smart, supportive family, married the dad, no alcohol, no drugs.

Some other kid who gets pregnant at 17, gets dumped, gets kicked out, has to drop out of school, and has no way of supporting herself?

Yeah, you know what?  They *do* get a pass for making dumb decisions when their brains aren't fully formed.

Does that mean they never have to take responsibility?  No.  But I think it does mean we need to find (and fund) programs to help them get on their feet and make something of their lives when they had a shitty start.  Because most of the time, the "shitty start" is something you have little control over.  You can't pick your parents.

Should they get off the hook completely?  No.  But a $50k loan that turns into $100k is just a way for the banks to get filthy rich, and it's wrong.  So garnish people's wages to pay it back, income-based repayment, and be done with it.

Nederstash

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #258 on: February 19, 2016, 12:12:29 PM »
Out of interest (pun intended) I googled the interest rates on Dutch student loans... this year it's a whopping 0.01%!
2015    0,01%
2014    0,12%
2013    0,81%
2012    0,6%
2011    1,39%
2010    0,01%
2009    0,12%
2008    0,81%
2007    0,6%
2006    1,39%
2005    0,01%
2004    0,12%
2003    0,81%
2002    0,6%
2001    1,39%
2000    0,01%

In 2011 I took out a small loan (3k or so for epic and long travel) and I remember feeling so shafted about the interest rate of 1.39%! Paid it off the same year though, so don't facepunch me too hard here. Still really happy to live in the Netherlands and not the USA (although I love to visit, it's an amazing country!).

golden1

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #259 on: February 19, 2016, 12:41:57 PM »
Yes, what I don't understand is where all the college money is going. 

I went to an expensive private college in 1991 that cost roughly $22000/ year Tuition plus room and board. 

I just looked it up and it is around $63000 25 years later.  Where is all this money going? 

onlykelsey

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #260 on: February 19, 2016, 12:50:02 PM »
Administrators and facilities.  Certainly not tenure or financial aid for most kids. It's a weird arms race, where colleges have no incentive to keep costs down because they have no skin in the game and students can borrow infinite money.

radicaledward

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #261 on: February 19, 2016, 12:52:00 PM »
Yes, what I don't understand is where all the college money is going. 

I went to an expensive private college in 1991 that cost roughly $22000/ year Tuition plus room and board. 

I just looked it up and it is around $63000 25 years later.  Where is all this money going?
It's actually really complicated and depends on the type of school involved. With regards to state schools, part of the problem is that states have been reducing the budget for education so that difference has to be made up somehow.

Also, to hedge off any questions about endowments - they don't work that way. Universities are only allowed to use the earnings from the endowment and most of the time the funds are earmarked as well so you can't use it for just any program as well.

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #262 on: February 19, 2016, 02:22:39 PM »
this thread is a great example of what I dis-like about this forum, the Fox news GOP blame the victim  mentality that peaks it head out occasionally.


LOL!!!! How are these idiots "victims" when they CHOSE to take out these loans and AGREED on the terms of the loans???  :  )  They had no problem taking the $$$$$$ when offered.

nancyjnelson

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #263 on: February 19, 2016, 03:36:17 PM »
Quote
Well, in a sense, yes.  They should get a pass.

Should you be able to reasonably compare the following:
My friend's kid, whose parents both have PhDs in engineering, who graduated at 17 and went to Yale, then med school, and is now an OB?
Some other inner city kid, with a single mom, on welfare, in an unsafe area with drug addicts on the corner.

Oh why does that inner city kid not pick them up from their bootstraps!!

Or why don't we compare:
My cousin, who got pregnant at 17 and had a baby at 18.  Who...lived at home with mom, got married, went to the local college.  Husband got a job.  Eventually went on to get a PhD in physics and apply to be an astronaut.  Her kid is on full scholarship to engineering school now.  Note: small town kid, very smart, supportive family, married the dad, no alcohol, no drugs.

Some other kid who gets pregnant at 17, gets dumped, gets kicked out, has to drop out of school, and has no way of supporting herself?

Yeah, you know what?  They *do* get a pass for making dumb decisions when their brains aren't fully formed.

Does that mean they never have to take responsibility?  No.  But I think it does mean we need to find (and fund) programs to help them get on their feet and make something of their lives when they had a shitty start.  Because most of the time, the "shitty start" is something you have little control over.  You can't pick your parents.

Should they get off the hook completely?  No.  But a $50k loan that turns into $100k is just a way for the banks to get filthy rich, and it's wrong.  So garnish people's wages to pay it back, income-based repayment, and be done with it.

Yes, this.

mm1970

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #264 on: February 19, 2016, 04:49:05 PM »
this thread is a great example of what I dis-like about this forum, the Fox news GOP blame the victim  mentality that peaks it head out occasionally.


LOL!!!! How are these idiots "victims" when they CHOSE to take out these loans and AGREED on the terms of the loans???  :  )  They had no problem taking the $$$$$$ when offered.
A 17 year old who cannot legally vote or drink?

A 21 year old who can't rent a fucking car?  We don't trust them to rent a car (in general, for good reason), oh but the banks think they are to be trusted to to borrow tens of thousands of dollars?

People who wouldn't be able to get a mortgage can borrow student loan money.

This doesn't strike you as predatory?

My god, how awesome to be on such a pedestal, and to be someone who was the smartest of the smart at such a tender young age.  Maybe you should make it your mission to help educate the masses on student loans.

headwinds

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #265 on: February 20, 2016, 07:25:53 PM »
I agree, the government should stop pushing up the cost of college by providing a nearly-unlimited pool of money to prospective students that traps them in debt for years afterwards.

Not just debt, unforgivable debt. It is a bubble of unprecedented proportions, similar to the mortgage crisis only this time the debtors cannot walk away from their bad investments. They are on the hook for life.

alewpanda

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #266 on: February 20, 2016, 10:59:43 PM »
Ok, I get that some loans are extremely predatory, and a lot of students don't get great financial education at home or at school before they start college, but I'm confused about all of the discussion that tries to point the blame entirely away from the debtors, for the following reasons:

a) These individuals had a dream job/degree in mind...but apparently did no research about them.  Did they look up the average income of the job they wanted?  Did they google whether jobs could be found?  Did they research....anything?

b) The older students, the ones who went back, surely they had an idea of what a dollar can get you?  Surely they didn't look at 20,000 worth of student loans for a year and think they were getting a good deal.....?

c) Public education at a large state university at my hometown is 3,000-3,500 a semester.  Yes, you live at home, not the dorms.  Yes, you work part time (hopefully bringing in at minimum 500 a month...20 hours x minimum wage minus estimated taxes).  Yes, you live cheaply.  But, assuming you start working the summer after you graduate from college (better if you start before then), you already have cash for 2/3rds of your semester.  If you are low income, you get the rest covered in grants.  If you are in a higher income bracket...maybe you cover it with graduation gift money.  Or, for either bracket, work during high school and work more than 20 hours a week in the summers. 
3500 a semester can be covered while working at minimum wage during summers and breaks and about 20 hours a week in the school year.  If you get any grants, you can work less (or have more flexibility).  My siblings have all done it...I was the weird one who went to a private school out of state.  But even I walked away from a school that charges 5500 a semester with only 8,000 in school loans.

d) Trade schools -- 2 year degrees.  My husband makes significantly more than average for his age bracket and number of years in the industry.  Sure, he's a got great work ethic and good inter-personal skills -- but he also only has an associates and he had to do the cheap grunt work too before making a real income.  Those 12,000 in student loans for trade school sure paid off! 

MgoSam

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #267 on: February 21, 2016, 12:49:30 AM »

Well, in a sense, yes.  They should get a pass.

Should you be able to reasonably compare the following:
My friend's kid, whose parents both have PhDs in engineering, who graduated at 17 and went to Yale, then med school, and is now an OB?
Some other inner city kid, with a single mom, on welfare, in an unsafe area with drug addicts on the corner.

Oh why does that inner city kid not pick them up from their bootstraps!!

Or why don't we compare:
My cousin, who got pregnant at 17 and had a baby at 18.  Who...lived at home with mom, got married, went to the local college.  Husband got a job.  Eventually went on to get a PhD in physics and apply to be an astronaut.  Her kid is on full scholarship to engineering school now.  Note: small town kid, very smart, supportive family, married the dad, no alcohol, no drugs.

Some other kid who gets pregnant at 17, gets dumped, gets kicked out, has to drop out of school, and has no way of supporting herself?

Yeah, you know what?  They *do* get a pass for making dumb decisions when their brains aren't fully formed.

Does that mean they never have to take responsibility?  No.  But I think it does mean we need to find (and fund) programs to help them get on their feet and make something of their lives when they had a shitty start.  Because most of the time, the "shitty start" is something you have little control over.  You can't pick your parents.

Should they get off the hook completely?  No.  But a $50k loan that turns into $100k is just a way for the banks to get filthy rich, and it's wrong.  So garnish people's wages to pay it back, income-based repayment, and be done with it.

Well said. I really appreciate this comic.

http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate
« Last Edit: February 21, 2016, 12:51:02 AM by MgoSam »

Captain and Mrs Slow

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #268 on: February 21, 2016, 07:04:18 AM »

LOL!!!! How are these idiots "victims" when they CHOSE to take out these loans and AGREED on the terms of the loans???  :  )  They had no problem taking the $$$$$$ when offered.

Sofa King I just hope and pray that no one you love and care about ever gets taken advantage of because you voted for someone who refused to do anything about predatory lending/selling  practices Because as you the victim should know better.

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Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #269 on: February 21, 2016, 10:05:46 AM »
Bullshit. These people should know better at this point. Personal accountability needs to come into play on this eventually. It is all over the media about these loans not being a good deal yet EVERY DAY there are more STUPID people asking where they can sign up for them. I have ZERO SYMPATHY for them ZERO.   

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #270 on: February 21, 2016, 10:07:28 AM »
Ok, I get that some loans are extremely predatory, and a lot of students don't get great financial education at home or at school before they start college, but I'm confused about all of the discussion that tries to point the blame entirely away from the debtors, for the following reasons:

a) These individuals had a dream job/degree in mind...but apparently did no research about them.  Did they look up the average income of the job they wanted?  Did they google whether jobs could be found?  Did they research....anything?

b) The older students, the ones who went back, surely they had an idea of what a dollar can get you?  Surely they didn't look at 20,000 worth of student loans for a year and think they were getting a good deal.....?



I concur!!!

mamagoose

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #271 on: February 21, 2016, 10:23:31 AM »
Any comments on lifestyle inflation during college? Example, my freshman year I lived on campus, meal plan, no car, full scholarship. By junior year I took out a small loan to cover cost of moving off campus to an apartment to get out of a hell roommate deal. Other students were moving into brand new luxury apartments with granite countertops, no shared bedrooms, one apartment complex even had boat ramps and storage for students. It makes living on campus stigmatizing, like only the poor kids do that. Now I see on campus apartments constructed with rooftop swimming pools and flat screen TV in each unit. Tell me what educational value comes from that? But that's perceived as normal, even though rent there is twice what the "shoebox" freshman dorms with communal bathrooms charge.
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nobodyspecial

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #272 on: February 21, 2016, 12:04:05 PM »
Well given that you are charging 10x as much tuition for the same course as you were a generation ago - you have to justify it somehow.
And the fancy gyms, climbing walls, and cinemas are easily covered by the savings in replacing lecturers with online video courses.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #273 on: February 21, 2016, 02:20:31 PM »
I agree, the government should stop pushing up the cost of college by providing a nearly-unlimited pool of money to prospective students that traps them in debt for years afterwards.

Not just debt, unforgivable debt. It is a bubble of unprecedented proportions, similar to the mortgage crisis only this time the debtors cannot walk away from their bad investments. They are on the hook for life.

Do you know why student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy? 

It's very easy to understand.

Student loans did not start off that way.   You could discharge them in bankruptcy just like any loan.

So many Americans started filing for bankruptcy as a way of getting out of their student loans that Congress closed that loophole.    That's right, your fellow Americans with student loans were ripping off their fellow citizens at such an alarming rate that something had to be done to stop it.

That's why.   I lived thru those times and saw it happen.


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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #274 on: February 22, 2016, 07:20:53 AM »
Student loans did not start off that way.   You could discharge them in bankruptcy just like any loan.

So many Americans started filing for bankruptcy as a way of getting out of their student loans that Congress closed that loophole.    That's right, your fellow Americans with student loans were ripping off their fellow citizens at such an alarming rate that something had to be done to stop it.

That's why.   I lived thru those times and saw it happen.

Citation?

Not that I'm doubting your anecdotal experience, but I've heard this described as both a stone truth and an urban legend, with no actual proof either way.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #275 on: February 22, 2016, 08:44:26 AM »
Well, I'm older than you are and can attest that it was not uncommon back in the day. Best were the folks who got medical or legal degrees and then declared bankruptcy. And no, I didn't keep a list for the purpose of citation thirty years later.

I will say the modern day equivalent might be the legions of folks who walked away from their mortgages for whinypants reasons.

There will always be a subset of people who take advantage of loopholes just because they're possible,  not because they're the right thing to do.

And since you're the doubter, infogoon, I suggest you do your own research. Urban legend, my ass.
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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #276 on: February 22, 2016, 10:58:12 AM »
It looks like the first change to the bankruptcy code came in 1976, when loans made by not-for-profit schools or by the government were made non-dischargeable. There were a bunch of tweaks here and there, always to whittle away the original exceptions for major student hardships or disabilities, or to extend the amount of time that had to pass before the loan could be written off. The next big change was in 2005 when all student loans, including private ones were made non-dischargeable. It may have been, basically, a gift to the banks and to people and firms who liked to speculate in student loan derivatives. After all, when one bubble bursts (real estate), the best thing to have is another bubble in the process of inflating.

http://business.time.com/2012/02/09/why-cant-you-discharge-student-loans-in-bankruptcy/

Here's the only article I could find with quantitative information about how many loans were actually discharged.

http://consumerist.com/2015/03/17/you-cant-discharge-your-student-loans-in-bankruptcy-because-of-panicked-1970s-legislation/
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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #277 on: February 22, 2016, 02:04:41 PM »
18 to vote, drive, take out loans, and drink. Universal age of suffrage.
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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #278 on: February 22, 2016, 02:37:20 PM »
Well, I'm older than you are and can attest that it was not uncommon back in the day. Best were the folks who got medical or legal degrees and then declared bankruptcy. And no, I didn't keep a list for the purpose of citation thirty years later.

I will say the modern day equivalent might be the legions of folks who walked away from their mortgages for whinypants reasons.

There will always be a subset of people who take advantage of loopholes just because they're possible ,  not because they're the right thing to do.

And since you're the doubter, infogoon, I suggest you do your own research. Urban legend, my ass.

Moralizing aside, you'd think that if this were such a huge, well-known problem, there'd be some readily available proof of it somewhere aside from a GAO report on under six hundred bankruptcies in 1977.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #279 on: February 22, 2016, 03:06:26 PM »
Well, I'm older than you are and can attest that it was not uncommon back in the day. Best were the folks who got medical or legal degrees and then declared bankruptcy. And no, I didn't keep a list for the purpose of citation thirty years later.

I will say the modern day equivalent might be the legions of folks who walked away from their mortgages for whinypants reasons.

There will always be a subset of people who take advantage of loopholes just because they're possible ,  not because they're the right thing to do.

And since you're the doubter, infogoon, I suggest you do your own research. Urban legend, my ass.

Moralizing aside, you'd think that if this were such a huge, well-known problem, there'd be some readily available proof of it somewhere aside from a GAO report on under six hundred bankruptcies in 1977.

We might start by looking at some recent examples. One gets the sense that this phenomenon has picked up steam:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/23/pf/college/student_loan_fugitives/

http://www.vice.com/read/talking-to-american-debt-dodgers-who-moved-to-europe-to-avoid-paying-off-their-student-loans-111

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/us-graduates-crushing-student-loans-flee-europe-dodge-debt-find-jobs-1538498

I'm not really sure where one would go to find public data on this, but I'd bet SL lenders have such numbers for use in-house.

ETA: Not quite the same as declaring bankruptcy, but similar in concept since the lenders will never see a dime. These people will be SCREWED if they ever try to come back.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 03:09:57 PM by Vertical Mode »
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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #280 on: February 23, 2016, 02:25:50 AM »
Heck the American political leadership themselves spend their careers telling you one thing while doing another. Even a percentage of the clergy/preachers/pastors/etc professes to be followers of Jesus while refusing to accept everyone's "imperfections" and differences. A few of these are starting to see the light I think.

All that said - we'd have a great country if we could off-load these people to another planet. Maybe Mars? ;)

It's our Puritan heritage. The original Puritans weren't satisfied with simply living the kind of spiritual life that suited them: they felt entitled to try to impose their beliefs on others by using politics, social pressure, and anything else they could think of. Overall they were an obnoxious lot, and they made themselves so odious in England that eventually they weren't welcome. That, and their desire to create a religious autarchy by carving it out of some other land, eventually inspired many of them to move to Holland.

In the 17th and 18th century, the Netherlands had the most liberal immigration policy and the most religious freedom of any country in Europe. Basically, if you had a trade skill of some kind and were not a criminal or wanted for a crime in another country, the door was open to you and you could immigrate, bring your family, and set up shop. This provided a skilled labor pool. Factor in access to year-round seaports, independent municipal governments that were not necessarily part of the feudal system, and a functional commercial fleet that dated back to the Hanseatic League, and the Netherlands turned into an economic powerhouse almost overnight without having to rely excessively on overseas colonies (although they had a few). The booming economy and the demand for skilled labor wasn't the only thing the Netherlands had going for it: there was no established religious sect, and people were allowed complete freedom of religious practice provided they did not interfere with anybody else. It was the kind of laissez-faire, live-and-let-live society that libertarians fantasize about because although the society definitely had problems, the "I got mine, so fuck you" mentality hadn't set in yet.

Then came the Puritans. These folks didn't actually invent "I got mine, so fuck you", but they practiced it more intensively than any other tribe of people before or since.

The Puritan immigrants to the Netherlands definitely wanted to take advantage of the religious freedom there, but they had a problem with the fact that everyone else around them was just as free as they were. These other free people were making religious and lifestyle choices that differed from the ones the Puritans wanted them to make. The Puritans also asserted that spreading their belief and proselytizing or even trying to force or manipulate other people into following their religious dictates was a critical aspect of their faith. Unless they were given an entitlement to harass, lecture, and even legislate against other people whose habits of worship, dress, eating, or living didn't mesh with theirs, they truly believed they weren't practicing their religion. Indeed, the fact that other people didn't treat them with the reverence they believed they deserved by listening obediently or catering to their sensibilities was, in the Puritan mentality, a grave oppression roughly on par with being imprisoned or beaten up for their faith. Since many of the Puritans got off on the idea of being martyrs for their religion, the predictable reaction to their obnoxious behavior could have created an exceptional alignment of interests, had they only been willing to save their belligerence for people who actually wanted a confrontation.

Hypocrisy and rationalization were central to the Puritan practice, but they never recognized it as such, because they believed in the somewhat antinomian notion that, although they struggled for control over the law (and, by extension, other people), they were personally exempt from human law due to their moral superiority, if that human law happened to differ from whatever they wanted to do at the time.

Central to the Puritan mentality was the belief that Puritans were superior beings because they alone, of all the humans on the planet, possessed not just rectitude but a special capability for strong emotions regarding religion. These religious feelings, apparently, were more important than any other kind of feelings, and more important than any other person's cultural, social, or other sensitivities. Until they had the kind of political and economic control that allowed them to either exclude or punish people who weren't sufficiently considerate of their special feelings, they just weren't satisfied. They also weren't shy about showing just how much contempt they had for the country and people that had welcomed them. They never did integrate with Dutch society: they refused to get down with the live-and-let-live mentality, and their arrogance was such that they generally didn't even bother to learn the language. Inevitably, they made themselves just as unwelcome in the Netherlands as they'd done in England. So off they went to the "new" territories in the Americas to set up their own colonies based on the rules of the corporations they set up. The role of religion, and churches, was radically different from what had historically existed in Europe, since Puritan style churches emphasized worship and little or nothing else. The resulting lack of emphasis on public education, health care, elder care, and other services historically provided by religious institutions is a feature of American society to this day.

This is great. Was it not also the case that the Puritans believed in evidence of predestination? I have forgotten the proper word for it, but that thing where if you are destined to be saved you will seem saved (by being rich and prosperous) and if you are destined to be damned you will seem damned (by being poor). So poverty is evidence of sinfulness and is therefore not only entirely your fault but also far worse than the apparent material poverty.

headwinds

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #281 on: February 23, 2016, 06:10:30 AM »

Do you know why student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy? 

It's very easy to understand.

Yes I am familiar with this piece of history. Some people did abuse bankruptcy to escape their student debts. But lending has never been a risk free activity. No investment with any kind of yield is risk free. But now we have an environment where for-profit banks can lend money essentially risk-free as long as it is for college, backed by the power of governmental force to collect. This makes it much easier for students to borrow money, because the loans have an artificially suppressed level of risk. The increased availability of this credit drives the price of tuition up to the point where borrowing money for education becomes necessary for access to many fields for all but the most wealthy or most talented and savvy. Meanwhile kids are fed a steady stream of lies throughout their childhood that college is necessary for success, and that they should follow their dreams of studying Art History or Spanish Literature or whatever rather than pursuing a field that might actually have some income potential post graduation. Many buy it hook line and sinker while lacking the financial wherewithal to truly understand what they are agreeing to when they sign their promissory notes every fall.

Should these kids work harder to inform themselves? Should they do more research? Should they be more frugal while in school? Of course they should.

Have the education system and banking system invested heavily in creating this situation? Of course they have.

It is easy to place the blame solely on the students while ignoring the very real problems built into the system itself. As it was easy to place the blame on people who stupidly bought more house than they could afford at the peak of the market in 2006-2007, and then walked away from the mortgage. Yes, those people made a bad choice, but don't ask me to feel sorry for the banks when they don't get to collect on the debt. Lending money is risky and I don't agree with the government distorting the market by artificially suppressing this level of risk. Just as I didn't agree with the government intervening when banks made bad bets on mortgages being repaid.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #282 on: February 23, 2016, 07:44:30 AM »
Stuff about the Puritan movement

This is great. Was it not also the case that the Puritans believed in evidence of predestination? I have forgotten the proper word for it, but that thing where if you are destined to be saved you will seem saved (by being rich and prosperous) and if you are destined to be damned you will seem damned (by being poor). So poverty is evidence of sinfulness and is therefore not only entirely your fault but also far worse than the apparent material poverty.

So far as I can tell they did believe that humans had free will and they weren't completely deterministic. But like many people they tended to view material success in life as evidence that they were favored by Providence, and material failure as evidence that they were doing something morally wrong. Broke? Then it's your own fault: work harder. That's actually pretty good advice in an early colonial environment when people are fighting for survival. Later on the context changed and the advice wasn't as universally useful.

Once the failures of the initial corporate structures the Puritans set up had been addressed (which took a couple years during which some colonies did very poorly), and in the very limited context of the agrarian and hunter/gatherer cultural models available, there really was a relationship between the amount of work a person did and the amount of food or wampum his or her family had afterwards. Thus, for the settlers:

1) work = wealth,
2) wealth = sign of divine favor, ergo
3) work = path to divine favor.

Trouble is, point #1 doesn't work outside the most primitive societies, and it presupposes a whole bunch of things such as individual capacity and the value of one's labor. Marx actually makes some intelligent observations on relative value of skilled versus unskilled labor in "Das Kapital". I won't repeat them here except to say that there is indeed a relationship between work and wealth, but it's not as cut and dried as many people would like to believe. Point #2 has problems too, but since the syllogism has already collapsed I'll leave it alone. The upshot is that in a more complex society, work doesn't necessarily equal reward even if you do what was successful for previous generations.

Plenty of people work hard and educate themselves, but are doomed to poverty. Maybe they work in a region where money is scarce, or they choose a field that doesn't pay well, or in the cases of the people in the original context of this thread, they borrow heavily to pay for their educations and are burdened with a heavy debt that makes savings and investment much harder. Or perhaps they simply don't have the brainpower to get through advanced education even if loans are made available to them. Maybe they have heavy family responsibilities that require them to give up educational opportunities.

I can point to several people in my own social circle who were felt intense family pressure to forego education beyond high school, or to drop out of high school, in order to care for a sick parent or elder, or to babysit younger siblings or to care for their own children if they happened to become pregnant as teens and did not have the kind of family support that would have allowed them to continue their education. Many took work in low-paying jobs to ensure that the rent or mortgage got paid and the rest of their families could get by. Out of all of those people, only one has really come back to enjoy a professional-class career and income. The rest have been trapped (possibly for life) by those early choices, which often weren't really choices. In nearly every case, the person trapped this way was born into a family where more than a third of the adults weren't functioning. Which in turn leads me, and some others, to question point #2 (OK, I didn't leave it alone).

Simply making education related loans available has allowed a few people to climb out of generational poverty, but not as many as I think society was hoping for. Failing to curb predatory lending has indeed been a contributing factor. I'm not trying to present every child from a poor family as being a helpless lamb who can be excused for not seeking out the basic facts, but at the same time the student loan industry has more wolves in it than shepherds.
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Captain and Mrs Slow

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #283 on: February 24, 2016, 12:03:55 AM »
The cost of college is soaring and it's not because the teachers are racking it in, more and more classes are being taught by low paid temps

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/o-adjunct-my-adjunct

Read some of the stories there and wow sofaking you are a real work, we might not agree on the solution but laugh at people when they're down, another Kevin O'leary here. Like I said I don't get how you think predatory loan practices are OK
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 04:16:00 AM by Captain and Mrs Slow »
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Captain and Mrs Slow

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #284 on: February 24, 2016, 04:34:55 AM »
This one jumped out to me, a 8000 payment only 1000 went to the principle

work for the Federal Aviation Administration. I incurred approximately $50,000 in student debt through the Department of Education and private Lenders to attend DeVry for my Associates Degree. I was placed in default and into the Treasury Offset program by the Dept. of Ed due to their refusal to accept anything less that $395 a month in repayment. I am currently paying through an outside debt collector, but am still considered in default. The DoE intercepts and keeps any tax returns owed to me etc. Now there is a new problem. Occasionally, I am forced to travel for work for training, seminars, etc. I use a government issued travel card for these trips and submit a voucher upon completion of travel. The DoE has begun intercepting the travel reimbursement money and applying it to my debt also. Leaving me to pay for official travel out of pocket. I don't complain when they take my tax return, as it is my money and it is my debt, but they are now stealing money that is not and never was mine. On top of all that, when they take $8,000 of tax returns, just over $1000 goes toward the principle while the rest goes to interest and "fees". This is predatory lending at it's finest.
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mm1970

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #285 on: February 24, 2016, 10:52:52 AM »
Quote
Ok, I get that some loans are extremely predatory, and a lot of students don't get great financial education at home or at school before they start college, but I'm confused about all of the discussion that tries to point the blame entirely away from the debtors

I don't think you do get it really.

You do have a point with the older students.  Yes, they should do more research.

But the "dream job" and "research" - do you NOT get that we are talking about teenagers for the most part??

Where the fuck are you going to do research?  Where the hell was a small town girl in bum-fuck Pennsylvania going to do research on chemical engineering?

Two year degrees are great - but again, that's RESEARCH.  At least in my home town, the schools are a little better, what with Vo-Tech and all.  But not all schools are like that.  Many just push "college" with no help on where to get info.  Just "go to college".  Shoot, that's what my current town/ school district is doing.  It's maddening!!

dots45

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #286 on: February 24, 2016, 11:09:23 AM »
There are a lot of ways to attend college without getting six figure loans and I'm not sure how many different ways there are to say this.  I'll never be of the mindset that teenagers should be held totally blameless for their actions, but thats my opinion.  Nevertheless a lot of these stories were from older people who got themselves into debt and could never pull themselves out.  Even people 30, 40, 50 years old were getting themselves into debt they can't climb out of.  Telling people its not their fault isn't going to solve the problem.

I read these stories and it often makes me ask more questions.  For the person who works for the FAA mentioned a couple replies ago...why did they spend $50k to get an Associates from a for-profit college?  Why not a cheaper community college? It sounds like they have a stable government job, which is pretty good for having an AA, yet were placed in default for being unable to afford $395 a month.  But...that person gets back a tax return of $8,000!  And if that is a
regular thing, then that would of been more than enough to pay the minimum on the loan each month plus have $3k left over, which would of avoided default and having the government take the tax return.  Instead, it gets seized with barely putting a dent in the loan (and likely some of that is going to pay extra fees from the loan going into default on top of the interest). 

As I mentioned before the system DOES need changes.  One example is how loans are often sold and sold again, making it a huge pain to try to track.  If you end up owing multiple lenders different types of loans, that gets confusing real fast.  Also, there needs to be more guidance on how the system works.  Whether its at the high school level, college level, parents, teachers, etc.  People need to be educated about the difference between unsubsidized versus subsidized loans, that you WILL almost certainly have to pay this back plus interest.  It isn't the same as credit card debt.  I know the interest rates are a lot lower these days but it can still snowball if someone has to keep taking unsubsidized loans out.  There are a ton of things that could be done to improve the system.  One thing being done where I live (Oregon) at the state level is offering free community college tuition for 2015 HS graduates with a 2.5 GPA+ and maintain that in community college.  The program isn't perfect but its pretty reasonable overall and a step in the right direction. Tennessee has something similar already in place.  I think programs that encourage lower cost options such as this are a great start. 

« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 11:11:01 AM by dots45 »

Archivist

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #287 on: March 01, 2016, 11:07:32 AM »
I do feel sorry for them up to a point. The student loan system seems set up to take advantage of ill-informed students. When I was in grad school, lenders were constantly advertising to me to take out more money. It was so easy. And being raised in a family that never talked about money, and having never had any lessons in personal finance, I had no idea what was a good decision regarding loans for college, because I had no idea what income to expect and what a loan payment might look like.

But at what point should a person know that they're taking out in loans more than they could pay back in 30 years? I know some students don't even calculate the tally of loans they have until it's time to pay, and are completely in the dark. I watched this happen to my roommate when she went to grad school. She chose an expensive private school and only worked part time, which means she needed loans both for tuition and for living expenses. She was living the high life, too, but all the other students in her program were doing the exact same thing so she thought nothing was wrong with that. Two of her classmates took a trip to Argentina using student loans (because what's another few thousand bucks on top of everything else they owe?). My roommate even considered quitting her part time job, just "to have the summer off." When she graduated and payments came due, I helped her calculate them (I think she owed over 80k), and she was going to have to pay $1,000 a month, which was astronomical to her, making $38,000 a year. She got on the Income-Based Repayment program right away.

I was lucky in that I graduated from college at a time where there were great loan consolidation deals (2005) so I locked in a very low interest rate around 2%. But I've never made a large salary, so for years I just paid the minimums on about $25,000 of those loans. When I was considering grad school, my roommate wanted me to go to her school, which would of put me at over $100,000 easily, and the thought of that much debt made me ill. I found a program for a third of the price and worked full time while attending school. I still manged to come out with an extra $25,000 in loans, though. I started becoming financially literate (finally) around the time my now-husband and I moved in together, and in the last 2 years we've paid off almost half of the total $53,000 in school debt I had accumulated, and we'll pay off the low interest rate loans in within the next 2 years.

Captain and Mrs Slow

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #288 on: March 06, 2016, 05:01:25 AM »
@archivist you bring a up point. I'm all for personal responsibility many many stories here of people who bucked up and best down heavy debt loads but that doesn't twke away from the fact America is turning into a plutocracy, Robert Reich writes a lot a out this - he's a bit over the top at times but his point is very valid. Here's an excellent example of this. why are we having to pay exorbitant prices for something that was given away for free

http://www.vox.com/2016/3/4/11160540/timothy-gowers-discrete-analysis

Bit off topic but this article fro NY Times both fascinating and scary at the same time

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/magazine/the-robots-are-coming-for-wall-street.html?_r=0
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 05:22:17 AM by Captain and Mrs Slow »
I Embrace Frugality so I can have my Cake and Eat I Too

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Murse

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #289 on: March 06, 2016, 05:55:55 AM »
Well, I'm older than you are and can attest that it was not uncommon back in the day. Best were the folks who got medical or legal degrees and then declared bankruptcy. And no, I didn't keep a list for the purpose of citation thirty years later.

I will say the modern day equivalent might be the legions of folks who walked away from their mortgages for whinypants reasons.

There will always be a subset of people who take advantage of loopholes just because they're possible ,  not because they're the right thing to do.


And since you're the doubter, infogoon, I suggest you do your own research. Urban legend, my ass.

Okay cool, so what do you think about making mortgages federally insured and undischargable in bankruptcy?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 06:16:57 AM by Murse »

Murse

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #290 on: March 06, 2016, 06:16:07 AM »
Ok, I get that some loans are extremely predatory, and a lot of students don't get great financial education at home or at school before they start college, but I'm confused about all of the discussion that tries to point the blame entirely away from the debtors, for the following reasons:

a) These individuals had a dream job/degree in mind...but apparently did no research about them.  Did they look up the average income of the job they wanted?  Did they google whether jobs could be found?  Did they research....anything?

b) The older students, the ones who went back, surely they had an idea of what a dollar can get you?  Surely they didn't look at 20,000 worth of student loans for a year and think they were getting a good deal.....?



I concur!!!
Anecdotally I can say that I didn't look up my career path, I didn't look up much. I got lucky plain and simple. Not only are my parents both nurses and encouraged it as a career, they told me if I didn't go to college I had to move out, otherwise I could stay and they would continue to pay my living expenses (though none of my school expenses.) also, they loaned me the money I needed to pay for school and I went to a community college.

High schools have their college center people come in and give "statistics" on how college affects income by years in college (on average.) There was no mention of degree type, fields, or loans/interest rates. We were too busy being taught how to figure out the area of a circle. There is a lot that can be done about this debt issue, but the current system is clearly not working and I think it is unrealistic to believe it is going to be perfect for everyone which is why I personally believe in safety nets.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 06:23:01 AM by Murse »

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #291 on: March 24, 2016, 08:38:48 AM »
Indeed it is hard to feel sorry for most of these people and stories.  College IS expensive, but that doesn't mean you have to graduate with six figure debt with a liberal arts degree.

I concur!

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #292 on: April 15, 2016, 10:02:15 AM »
There are a bunch of new cry baby stories to read. I like the ones that cry about the debt they CHOSE to take on and they way they deal with it is to then is to take on even more loans by going back to school again. This guy says he HAD to borrow more $$$. LOL!!! He is also complaining because now he cant buy a NEW CAR.


I worked hard throughout college, but the college didn't offer any decent job placement, so after a year of failed attempts of trying to get a job in my area in the field I went to school for, I accepted an internship and still somehow managed to pay my student loans. The internship turned into a short-lived career in the field I went to school for, and then the economy tanked. I HAD to put my loans into forbearance, but it wasn't long enough because after a year I was still not fully employed, and had exhausted my savings and unemployment benefits. I HAD TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL to get a technical certificate, putting me more than $5500 more in debt (more over time with interest). Not too long after I got a new job, and was able to start paying again. I have done so faithfully since I have been employed for the last 6 years, but still feel like this takes way too much of my income. If I weren't paying as much per month, I could actually afford a NEW CAR since my current one is breaking me every few months and I'm in medical debt up to my eyeballs. Not having to deal with student loan debt would definitely make things better for me.
Chris Calvert  April 7, 2016  Philadelphia
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.1bj6trVc.dpuf

SeaEhm

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #293 on: April 19, 2016, 07:23:03 PM »
College is participation and many are waiting on their participation ribbon (a job that pays well enough to cover expenses)
Just here to feel guilty about my purchases which are often irrational, wants, and in an atypical budget.

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #294 on: May 08, 2016, 04:24:44 PM »
....and for MANY that never comes!

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #295 on: November 18, 2016, 10:27:26 AM »
 Many new interesting stories!  :  )

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        MY STUDENT LOANS EVENTUALLY TOTALED OVER $1 MILLION, five times what was originally borrowed. The recession, financial struggles to keep up with taxes owed to the IRS meant we could not pay student loans. So the servicers sold the debt to subsidiaries they own and added 'collection fees,' assigned the debt to collection agencies who assessed a 30% collection fee while claiming the debt is in "rehabilitation" (Pioneer Credit Recovery, owned by Navient), and put other loans into forebearance while adding enormous collection fees WHILE the loans were in forebearance. At one point we took them all to court, suing them for their antics. The 9th Circuit Federal Judge who presided over our case was disgusted with the student loan companies, calling their actions, "...egregious" and, "...the worst thing I have ever seen." But still, no one has been able to help us. No one. No one does anything. We have no house. My husband cashed out his retirement after working for 33 years at the same company. We own nothing. We settled most of the debt but still have $300,000 left owing. My payments are $2,000/month on the Standard repayment plan because it is the ONLY repayment plan that actually pays down the principle. This is ridiculous. If I knew then, what I know now, I would never, EVER EVER EVER have gotten a single student loan. Ever. And I would have not gone to school. No crappy degree is worth the hell we've experienced. We'll come out of this one way or another if I die trying. But I don't wish this on anyone.
Amy    January 28, 2016    Oregon





I owe over 90,000 in student debt. I graduated from the University of CHicago in 2015 as a model student, the first female editor in chief of both the student newspaper (the chicago maroon) and the campus investigative news journal (grey city magazine). I am highly skilled, award-winning journalist, who is stuck in a job working as a nanny + dinner server for a nyc reporter in order to keep ahead of my monthly loan payments. Instead of reporting myself -the reason I attended university, and incurred so much debt- I pour drinks for reporters.
Joy Crane    February 21, 2016    New York City 





I had very good grades aside from working a rinky dink cleaning job and raising 5 CHILDREN with my husband. I received little to no funding or grants/scholarships. No problem, since Davenport had a very successful job placement after school plan, I figured I would be okay to pay off loans. NOT THE CASE!!! I didn't qualify for anything and Davenport didn't even offer to help after I finished my undergrad program. When my loans went into payback mode, they wanted a house payment so I put myself on the IBR plan. I am currently still on the plan 5 years later. I called Navient the other day crying.. They had not processed my application and wanted that house payment in hand on the 23rd. I do not have this kind of money with my size family and no job. I have to say that the rep was kind and said she too was even in the same boat as us and wish she had never went to school. She finished my app immediately and told me what my amount was. Even though I felt better at the moment, my heart aches and my brains is fried. This has cost me sleepless nights, hours of crying, this sinking gut feeling that one day they will take everything from me to get their money back . $65,000 @ 6.8%. I will die with this loan unless they keep their word of forgiveness after 25 years on the IBR. I feel for all of us, not just myself. The government sees this debt.. This 1+trillion dollar debt. I keep my hopes high because something has to be done.
Aimee    March 10, 2016    GR, Michigan 




My student loan debt has skyrocketed to $135,000, of which $100,000 is the astronomical interest rate that I am stuck with to pay on this outrageous loan. I was encouraged by my school to take out student loans to pay for my education as a court reporter. Consequently my school closed, I NEVER RECEIVED THE DEGREE, and even though I had filed babkruotcy years ago, and attempted to discharge the student loans, my request was denied. I did manage to pay off two of the loans, but due to financial burden and family illness, I have been unsuccessful to get the current loan to a manageable state, I am deeply disturbed that there is no substantial relief for the current student loan debt burden, and that the banks are able to get away with unregulated policy that destroys people's lives. I pray that one day all student loan debt will be forgiven - it would forever change my quality of life.
jhr    June 26, 2016    California


http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/


stylesjl

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #296 on: November 19, 2016, 01:10:55 AM »
The first one is mind boggling. How the hell does anyone get into a position of one million dollars of student debt? Well I guess fraud on the lenders part, given that it was reduced to 300K eventually.

I think part of the overall problem with student debt in the US is that repayment is not contingent on income.

missj

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #297 on: November 20, 2016, 05:25:54 PM »
there is a student debt crisis in this country, and the students are only partially to blame.  I think it's extremely callous to pretend they're all just a bunch of cry-babies.  There really is a problem with higher education fees skyrocketing and predatory lending practices.

that said....they do put themselves in that position, often needlessly.  I don't see any reason why people should go to 4 years of university if they're BORROWING the money.  if you've got a trustfund or a college fund that pays for it all, then fine.  but if you are personally borrowing money, then why on earth wouldn't you do the first 2 years at community college?

I have a friend who is a nurse.  she makes about $80,000 per year before benefits.  she went to community college and came out of school about 16 years ago with about $20,000 in debt. not too bad.  except she has chosen to keep her loans in deferrment for 16 years!  she claims financial hardship even though she and her husband BOTH drive a mercedes and have a nice house.  she has never paid off one cent of her loan because she claims she can't afford it.  HOW or WHY she is allowed to do this is beyond me, but the interest is still racking up this whole time...

I have another friend who constantly whines about her $60,000 student loan debt, but she chose to go to 4 years of university at an out of state school and got a bachelor's in fine arts and a minor in spanish.  she works as a waitress and also "can't afford" to pay her loans.  this just boggles my mind.

Indexer

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #298 on: November 20, 2016, 09:14:48 PM »
I think part of the overall problem with student debt in the US is that repayment is not contingent on income.

Repayment is contingent on income. It's an income based repayment plan. No income = no payment. Even a very low income = no payment. If you income covers some payment but not the whole thing, then you have some payment. If you have sufficient income to make the payment then you make the full payment.

Now interest... it keeps building.

Goldielocks

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #299 on: November 20, 2016, 10:00:36 PM »
The first one is mind boggling. How the hell does anyone get into a position of one million dollars of student debt? Well I guess fraud on the lenders part, given that it was reduced to 300K eventually.

I think part of the overall problem with student debt in the US is that repayment is not contingent on income.

You missed this part:

MY STUDENT LOANS EVENTUALLY TOTALED OVER $1 MILLION, five times what was originally borrowed. The recession, financial struggles to keep up with taxes owed to the IRS meant we could not pay student loans.


A person with little income does not "struggle to keep up with taxes" the same way that a person who gets a lot of income running their own business (and who does not pay quarterly installments) does...  my bet is that they made some money, and spent it all without keeping aside the taxes, and likely ignored the SL's too until they received the first reminder letter, when it was too late.
----

But that person whose school closed before they got the court reporter degree -- wow.