Author Topic: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....  (Read 87843 times)

infogoon

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #200 on: October 06, 2015, 09:36:19 AM »
lol - those stories are pretty funny.

Almost everyone has some stupid justifiable reason they couldn't finish school.

I wonder how many graphic designers there is? And how many graphic design jobs actually exist?

At my alma mater, "digital media" was the major that people went to when they failed out of computer science but still wanted to work in technology.

nobodyspecial

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #201 on: October 06, 2015, 11:54:19 AM »
I wonder how many graphic designers there is? And how many graphic design jobs actually exist?
I think "graphic designer" is the intersection of "I want to be an artist" and "I want to eat"
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 09:15:21 PM by nobodyspecial »

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #202 on: October 06, 2015, 07:08:50 PM »
I'm Canadian, and spent my late teens and 20s wondering why people with student loans partied, and how they could consistently claim not to know how their loans worked. I went back to school at 30.
-a school coordinator advised me that the form she wanted me to sign was only so that the school could get funding to cover accommodations for my disability. I read it, it was a loan application, I didn't sign.
- I did choose to get loans for my last year, any time I went to my school's financial aid office, they had loan documents they asked me to sign. The document never matched what they said I was signing. They were always rude when I read the documents and asked questions.

If I was 17 with no financial literacy, I could easily imagine being tricked. But, I also think that the students who are misled about student loans should take a few months to whine with friends about it. They then need to decide if they want to be responsible and repay the loans  and be frugal, or to launch a lawsuit against the financial aid people who misled and bullied them. But both are active, empowered choices.

FatCat

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #203 on: October 07, 2015, 09:05:59 AM »
I did choose to get loans for my last year, any time I went to my school's financial aid office, they had loan documents they asked me to sign. The document never matched what they said I was signing. They were always rude when I read the documents and asked questions.

Anytime someone acts rude, angry, or impatient because you want to read the legal document you're about to sign, you should probably just leave. Whenever someone starts acting irritated that I'm reading a document, the document always says something different from what they told me I was signing. It's usually very different. I've even seen the item I was purchasing and the price be completely different in a document. They told me not to worry about it because it was a mistake and they'll change it after I sign it. I said, "You can't do that. If it worked that way, what's to stop you from just changing it around as much as you want after I sign it?" Then they got mad that I didn't trust them.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #204 on: October 07, 2015, 12:39:14 PM »
I did choose to get loans for my last year, any time I went to my school's financial aid office, they had loan documents they asked me to sign. The document never matched what they said I was signing. They were always rude when I read the documents and asked questions.

Anytime someone acts rude, angry, or impatient because you want to read the legal document you're about to sign, you should probably just leave. Whenever someone starts acting irritated that I'm reading a document, the document always says something different from what they told me I was signing. It's usually very different. I've even seen the item I was purchasing and the price be completely different in a document. They told me not to worry about it because it was a mistake and they'll change it after I sign it. I said, "You can't do that. If it worked that way, what's to stop you from just changing it around as much as you want after I sign it?" Then they got mad that I didn't trust them.

The irritation, rudeness, pushiness, or condescending attitude is a huge red flag. Every time you see it, abort the transaction because the other person is trying to rip you off. It doesn't matter if it's a job offer or a lease: anyone who won't let you read what you're signing and help you understand each paragraph is up to something.

If you continue with the transaction, you're consenting to voluntarily do business with someone you caught trying to rip you off. There's only one possible outcome to that decision. The leopard won't change its spots, your decision to go forward with the deal will be interpreted by the predator as informed consent, you will spend a lot of time and effort catching subsequent ripoff attempts because you've accepted responsibility for controlling whether the ripoff artist rips you off, and eventually one will succeed because your attention is divided.

Overall, I prefer to abort the transaction and also the business relationship. It's easier to replace the person or company you catch trying to burn you *before* you've signed something, compared to *after*.
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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #205 on: October 08, 2015, 08:32:32 AM »
In general, that's what I do. In this case, I was conducting my business with the Canadian government, and being provided forms by a college employee. So I ignored his rudeness, read my paperwork, and made an informed decision.

My point was that I feel sorry for 17 year olds who trust employees of Canada's public post secondary institutions.

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #206 on: October 30, 2015, 09:49:16 PM »
So telling them that they are a special little rainbow and if they borrowed $100k to do a worthless degree then the world owes them a living isn't helping. 

hint if your degree has "studies" or "history of" in the title it is probably useless.


I concur.

KodeBlue

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #207 on: November 26, 2015, 01:38:56 AM »
Based on the grammar, spelling and syntax in most of these stories it's obvious they weren't English majors.

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #208 on: December 12, 2015, 12:15:17 PM »
LOL!!!!  :  )

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #209 on: December 12, 2015, 02:55:02 PM »
Welll, I took a look at the original link out of curiosity. Maybe it's just me being a clueless European, but I do feel sorry for these people - and I don't understand why most posters here are pretty much hating on them. Some of the questions in my head after reading some of the stories:
- why does your government allow these loans to be sold ever onwards, and for huge collection fees to be attached? Why are there no consumer protection laws in place that prevent this? A lot of people got in trouble not through the original loan, but due to the fact it was sold on / huge collection fees were attached. Believe me, this does NOT have to be the case. This can be changed. I am not implying the US government should be paying for everything, but I am implying that it is possible to put some limits in place to what these loan companies can do.
- how come they can garnish such stupid amounts? Even from a Social Security Check? This could also be prevented by implementing better consumer protection legislation, imho.
- what's with Pell grants (i.e. government money) being available for ridiculously overpriced private colleges with poor track records, which basically exist to lure in unsuspecting students with no college background in their families - and which try to get the student to sign up for student loans besides the grants? How the hell is that even legal?

Etc. etc. etc. Like I said, the US government could imho do a lot more to make the system fairer and to prevent financially clueless youngsters from signing up to things they will later regret. And that's without increasing taxes or paying a dime more to educate these people. So why isn't this happening?

nobodyspecial

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #210 on: December 12, 2015, 05:16:38 PM »
Maybe it's just me being a clueless European, ...
- why does your government allow ...
Imagine the US government as the French monarchy around 1790 and you get the governments general attitude toward the people.

And remember that the government doing good things for the people is socialism, socialism is bad, so the government doing the opposite must be good.
   

dragoncar

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #211 on: December 12, 2015, 06:49:39 PM »
Bro, did you ever fix that problem with your caps lock?

Tom Bri

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #212 on: December 12, 2015, 08:40:19 PM »
Welll, I took a look at the original link out of curiosity. Maybe it's just me being a clueless European, but I do feel sorry for these people - and I don't understand why most posters here are pretty much hating on them. Some of the questions in my head after reading some of the stories:
- why does your government allow these loans to be sold ever onwards, and for huge collection fees to be attached? 

Etc. etc. etc. Like I said, the US government could imho do a lot more to make the system fairer and to prevent financially clueless youngsters from signing up to things they will later regret. And that's without increasing taxes or paying a dime more to educate these people. So why isn't this happening?

The problem here mostly IS the government. They set the rates and conditions of the loans. They could change them. The problem was that in the past student loans were a huge loss to the government, or to whichever bank actually did the lending, and so the rules were tightened. Fine, people should pay back what they borrow.
But, kids, many of whom are of only average intelligence, are being strongly encouraged to go to university, even if they really are not up to it. Many kids think they MUST get a degree, and the only way they know to do it is to borrow, or, they just go with the flow and take the 'easy' route, putting off the pain until later.
The US is extremely generous with college, higher percentages of kids go than in almost any other country. This automatically means that the average intelligence of US college students is lower than in most other countries, since we set the bar so much lower. These kids are young, pretty dumb, and are told they will be set for life.
It is a screwed-up system, no doubt, but don't expect the US government to do anything about it. Not anything rational anyway.

Cathy

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #213 on: December 12, 2015, 08:57:47 PM »
Imagine the US government as the French monarchy around 1790 and you get the governments general attitude toward the people.
(Emphasis added.)

In the United States, "the ... government" and "the people" are in fact one and the same (at least to the extent that "the people" is defined to include only US citizens). See, e.g., United States v. Automobile Workers, 352 US 567, 593 (Douglas, J, dissenting) ("Under our Constitution it is We The People who are sovereign. The people have the final say."), cited with approval in Buckley v. Valeo, 424 US 1, 43 (1976) and in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 558 US 310, 130 S Ct 876, 904 (2010).

By contrast, in Canada, ultimate legal sovereignty is actually vested in a literal monarch, namely the Queen. See Constitution Act, 1867, 30 & 31 Vict, c 3, ßß 9 (executive power to be vested in the Queen), 17, 55-57 (Queen to have veto over all legislative power), and 96 (federal judges to be appointed by Queen's delegate). See also Chainnigh v. Canada (Attorney General), 2008 FC 69 at ∂ 49 (noting that "our present ties to the ... monarchy are constitutionally entrenched"); accord McAteer v. Canada (Attorney General), 2013 ONSC 5895 at ∂∂ 42, 44 ("The Applicants argue that the Queen stands for social hierarchy and elitism, and that there is no rational basis for her presence in a statement of allegiance to the nation. ... The Applicants may not be in favour of the continuing historic arrangement, but ... one cannot ignore the fact that the monarch is Canada's constitutional head of state."), aff'd 2014 ONCA 578, leave denied 2015 CanLII 8563 (SCC).
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 09:39:12 PM by Cathy »
This post contains only general information on the issues raised by this topic. This post does not provide help tailored to your specific situation. There are many facts that could be relevant to your specific situation and I am not in possession of those facts. If you need help tailored to your specific situation, you should retain an appropriate professional and not rely on this post.

Making Cookies

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #214 on: December 15, 2015, 11:41:53 AM »
Welll, I took a look at the original link out of curiosity. Maybe it's just me being a clueless European, but I do feel sorry for these people - and I don't understand why most posters here are pretty much hating on them. Some of the questions in my head after reading some of the stories:
- why does your government allow these loans to be sold ever onwards, and for huge collection fees to be attached? Why are there no consumer protection laws in place that prevent this? A lot of people got in trouble not through the original loan, but due to the fact it was sold on / huge collection fees were attached. Believe me, this does NOT have to be the case. This can be changed. I am not implying the US government should be paying for everything, but I am implying that it is possible to put some limits in place to what these loan companies can do.
- how come they can garnish such stupid amounts? Even from a Social Security Check? This could also be prevented by implementing better consumer protection legislation, imho.
- what's with Pell grants (i.e. government money) being available for ridiculously overpriced private colleges with poor track records, which basically exist to lure in unsuspecting students with no college background in their families - and which try to get the student to sign up for student loans besides the grants? How the hell is that even legal?

Etc. etc. etc. Like I said, the US government could imho do a lot more to make the system fairer and to prevent financially clueless youngsters from signing up to things they will later regret. And that's without increasing taxes or paying a dime more to educate these people. So why isn't this happening?

This is Amurica! Land of the Free! Free to lie to you, limit your alternatives, cheat you, and wave the flag in your eyes to distract you. We talk about how great we are (American Exceptionalism) all while purposefully avoiding discussion of our darker historical times i.e. life as a female or minority or alt-lifestyle. Heaven forbid you are a member of more than any one of these categories at once.

Heck the American political leadership themselves spend their careers telling you one thing while doing another. Even a percentage of the clergy/preachers/pastors/etc professes to be followers of Jesus while refusing to accept everyone's "imperfections" and differences. A few of these are starting to see the light I think.

All that said - we'd have a great country if we could off-load these people to another planet. Maybe Mars? ;)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 11:44:28 AM by Joe Average »

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #215 on: December 18, 2015, 10:40:43 AM »
Heck the American political leadership themselves spend their careers telling you one thing while doing another. Even a percentage of the clergy/preachers/pastors/etc professes to be followers of Jesus while refusing to accept everyone's "imperfections" and differences. A few of these are starting to see the light I think.

All that said - we'd have a great country if we could off-load these people to another planet. Maybe Mars? ;)

It's our Puritan heritage. The original Puritans weren't satisfied with simply living the kind of spiritual life that suited them: they felt entitled to try to impose their beliefs on others by using politics, social pressure, and anything else they could think of. Overall they were an obnoxious lot, and they made themselves so odious in England that eventually they weren't welcome. That, and their desire to create a religious autarchy by carving it out of some other land, eventually inspired many of them to move to Holland.

In the 17th and 18th century, the Netherlands had the most liberal immigration policy and the most religious freedom of any country in Europe. Basically, if you had a trade skill of some kind and were not a criminal or wanted for a crime in another country, the door was open to you and you could immigrate, bring your family, and set up shop. This provided a skilled labor pool. Factor in access to year-round seaports, independent municipal governments that were not necessarily part of the feudal system, and a functional commercial fleet that dated back to the Hanseatic League, and the Netherlands turned into an economic powerhouse almost overnight without having to rely excessively on overseas colonies (although they had a few). The booming economy and the demand for skilled labor wasn't the only thing the Netherlands had going for it: there was no established religious sect, and people were allowed complete freedom of religious practice provided they did not interfere with anybody else. It was the kind of laissez-faire, live-and-let-live society that libertarians fantasize about because although the society definitely had problems, the "I got mine, so fuck you" mentality hadn't set in yet.

Then came the Puritans. These folks didn't actually invent "I got mine, so fuck you", but they practiced it more intensively than any other tribe of people before or since.

The Puritan immigrants to the Netherlands definitely wanted to take advantage of the religious freedom there, but they had a problem with the fact that everyone else around them was just as free as they were. These other free people were making religious and lifestyle choices that differed from the ones the Puritans wanted them to make. The Puritans also asserted that spreading their belief and proselytizing or even trying to force or manipulate other people into following their religious dictates was a critical aspect of their faith. Unless they were given an entitlement to harass, lecture, and even legislate against other people whose habits of worship, dress, eating, or living didn't mesh with theirs, they truly believed they weren't practicing their religion. Indeed, the fact that other people didn't treat them with the reverence they believed they deserved by listening obediently or catering to their sensibilities was, in the Puritan mentality, a grave oppression roughly on par with being imprisoned or beaten up for their faith. Since many of the Puritans got off on the idea of being martyrs for their religion, the predictable reaction to their obnoxious behavior could have created an exceptional alignment of interests, had they only been willing to save their belligerence for people who actually wanted a confrontation.

Hypocrisy and rationalization were central to the Puritan practice, but they never recognized it as such, because they believed in the somewhat antinomian notion that, although they struggled for control over the law (and, by extension, other people), they were personally exempt from human law due to their moral superiority, if that human law happened to differ from whatever they wanted to do at the time.

Central to the Puritan mentality was the belief that Puritans were superior beings because they alone, of all the humans on the planet, possessed not just rectitude but a special capability for strong emotions regarding religion. These religious feelings, apparently, were more important than any other kind of feelings, and more important than any other person's cultural, social, or other sensitivities. Until they had the kind of political and economic control that allowed them to either exclude or punish people who weren't sufficiently considerate of their special feelings, they just weren't satisfied. They also weren't shy about showing just how much contempt they had for the country and people that had welcomed them. They never did integrate with Dutch society: they refused to get down with the live-and-let-live mentality, and their arrogance was such that they generally didn't even bother to learn the language. Inevitably, they made themselves just as unwelcome in the Netherlands as they'd done in England. So off they went to the "new" territories in the Americas to set up their own colonies based on the rules of the corporations they set up. The role of religion, and churches, was radically different from what had historically existed in Europe, since Puritan style churches emphasized worship and little or nothing else. The resulting lack of emphasis on public education, health care, elder care, and other services historically provided by religious institutions is a feature of American society to this day.
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Bearded Man

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #216 on: December 18, 2015, 11:24:33 AM »
I wonder where all the welfare apologists are all of a sudden. When a single, teenage mom pops out kids she can't take care of, she is a victim of circumstance and it's OK to redistribute from other peoples tax dollars to pay for her housing, food, kids health, her health, you name it, giving her more money for each kid she pops out with some random guy.

But when other people go into debt to better their job prospects and , all of a sudden it's their fault, they don't deserve help, they are scoundrels to be laughed at, you made your bed, etc.

I think it's one thing if you spent 100K on  9 month certificate program for upholstery repair. Sadly, I've seen some people who go to mainstream schools for mainstream programs and still work as Bank Tellers, etc. well into their 30's and 40's. I made it before I graduated from college, or before I even went. In fact I've surpassed people that have had a thousand advantages over me (rich family, college fund, lived with parents, etc.). Amazing how conservative personal accountability works...





« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 11:29:53 AM by Bearded Man »

Hank Sinatra

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #217 on: December 18, 2015, 01:12:06 PM »
Quote
I find it distasteful to shit on people who tried to better their lives, but didn't make it.

It's the American way!  If you get successful you got lucky. If you did not,  it's your fault. Whatever you did you obviously should have done something else.  Now, I I get successful, It was because of hard work, I made my own luck. If I don't  get what I thought I think I should have or, especially, if I actually fail  it's poor people's fault! Or the government's. (And I'll ask why there isn't a program for people like me) Taxes. etc etc. 

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #218 on: December 18, 2015, 07:56:06 PM »
LOL!!! Here is another idiot cry baby!  Great idea having your wife SHIT OUT 3 KIDS!!! [MOD NOTE: No. Forum Rule #1.]

My story is the absolute worst-case scenario. I have never met anyone in such a terrible circumstance, and have never heard anyone propose a solution or a plan of action to ease this burden or provide some semblance of a better quality of life. I am 26 years old and my AS degree is valueless - it would be impossible for me to make monthly payments with an entry-level salary in my field. After a few years of uncertainty and indecision, I racked up debt just shy of $150,000. Before it is paid, with interest, it is unlikely that I will pay one penny less than $200,000. Every day that passes I get further from my promised career path, stuck doing what must be done to make payments rather than what is fulfilling, interesting, or good for our country. With all but a few thousand owed to private lenders, there is almost no relief for me. I am subject to multiple variable interest rates even among loans with the same company. The rules and deadlines for payments, the penalties and collections practices, all of them vary from one company to the other. I've gone back to school to defer my loans because the community college tuition is less than what I would pay over the same period of time. I have 3 children who may never know what it's like to live in their own home, because I have to pay close to $1500 every month just to my lenders. I will never own a home, my credit may never recover. There is no American Dream on the table for me. The best I can do is tread water and hope for the best.

My generation deserved better than to be the cash crop for a predatory, profit-driven business model. My children deserve better.
Andrew G  November 23, 2015  Philadelphia
- See more at: http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/#sthash.tegXSmSy.dpuf
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 11:32:14 AM by arebelspy »

FrugalToque

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #219 on: December 19, 2015, 02:28:55 PM »
I wonder where all the welfare apologists are all of a sudden. When a single, teenage mom pops out kids she can't take care of, she is a victim of circumstance and it's OK to redistribute from other peoples tax dollars to pay for her housing, food, kids health, her health, you name it, giving her more money for each kid she pops out with some random guy.

But when other people go into debt to better their job prospects and , all of a sudden it's their fault, they don't deserve help, they are scoundrels to be laughed at, you made your bed, etc.

I don't know about "welfare apologist", but I think everyone should be given reasonable shelter and food, no matter how stupid they've been.  If they're anti-social enough, we put them in prison and rehabilitate them.  Otherwise, we have social workers to get them back on their feet.  And we especially take care of the kids, because it's not their fault their parents screwed up, and if you don't at least educate, feed and shelter them, they just become a bigger burden later.

For education, it's too damned expensive in your country, so I have no problem bailing people out of debt they never should have been forced or tricked into accumulating.

Toque.

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #220 on: January 08, 2016, 06:03:08 PM »
I have no problem bailing people out of debt they never should have been forced or tricked into accumulating.



Ignorance is no excuse. And no one forces anyone to take out a loan.   

Hank Sinatra

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #221 on: January 08, 2016, 06:31:29 PM »
Quote
Ignorance is no excuse. And no one forces anyone to take out a loan.   
 

Certainly ignorance is an excuse. Full and complete knowledge by both parties, to include exactly how the business entity is going to proceed to defraud you, is necessary or no free market transaction can take place.

The second part is more complex but if the entire economy is constructed to include the taking of loans for things, which it is, then, yes, there is a certain built-in level of coercion to taking loans in many, most, or nearly all cases because those are the rules of the game.  But, no, they don't do a Don Corleone and force you to sign with a gun to your head.

tobitonic

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #222 on: January 10, 2016, 11:00:24 AM »
Count me in the club of folks who think public education should be affordable, and that predatory loans (which, in my opinion, a great many student loans are) should be abolished.

Yes, I feel sorry for these people, and a great many more. We're very fortunate not to be in their shoes.

aFrugalFather

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #223 on: January 11, 2016, 12:12:11 AM »
Count me in the club of folks who think public education should be affordable, and that predatory loans (which, in my opinion, a great many student loans are) should be abolished.

Yes, I feel sorry for these people, and a great many more. We're very fortunate not to be in their shoes.

+1 to this

mm1970

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #224 on: January 11, 2016, 09:47:00 AM »
I have no problem bailing people out of debt they never should have been forced or tricked into accumulating.



Ignorance is no excuse. And no one forces anyone to take out a loan.

Of course it is.

Do you blame someone who grew up without school for not being able to read?

That's just a basic example.

The point of education is to learn, no?

Financial education is the same.

I can sit here in my office, on my computer - knowing that it all worked out for me. I was smart. I got scholarships.  I chose a decent major.  I opted for an ROTC scholarship.

But I also signed loan papers for 4 years to pay for room and board, and I had NO IDEA what I was doing.  Neither did my mom, the bank teller, because nobody in my family had ever gone to college.  8%, 10% rates?  Sure why not, that's normal right?

Nobody taught me that.  I got lucky.

I am, of course, going to teach my kids that.  But there's this whole generation of college students there (plus a tailing group too) who are hearing that "get an education" is their #1 priority, but they come from families who have never had to navigate the student loan thing, and don't get how it works.

Even today, in my lower-middle class school district, there is this HUGE focus on college.  Every classroom has a different university on the door.  "I'm going to college" on the t-shirts. Because "education is the key to success".  65% of these kids are on free lunch, if you AREN'T giving these kids the financial tools to figure out how to go without significant debt, you are fucking ruining their lives.  But 50% of the parents don't speak English and 34% of the parents never graduated high school.  Ignorance is OF COURSE an excuse.  If your parents don't it and the school doesn't teach it??

Making Cookies

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #225 on: January 11, 2016, 11:09:57 AM »
Ignorance leading people to make expensive choices that might not benefit their children well long term feeding a huge academic cash cow where top level administrators are making a six digit incomes writing "Mission Statements", delegating minor tasks and buying new logos???  ;)

Troy McClure

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #226 on: January 11, 2016, 05:56:59 PM »
I believe that the problem isn't fixing college affordability. The problem is that college is frequently where education starts and where students are no longer merely promoted on to the next grade. Grade inflation is a real and growing problem in the U.S. It used to be that a High School diploma would mean something. But that day is long gone, but now we want a college degree to mean something. With so many people moving on to college (and it is clear from the stories lacking some pretty basic knowledge), the BS or BA has become ubiquitous and given to so many underprepared/undereducated that it's starting to lose its luster. Now we look for graduate degrees.

I would be happy not fixing how college is funded and instead reverting H.S. back to something that was meaningful.
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Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #227 on: January 15, 2016, 05:51:51 PM »
Ignorance is OF COURSE an excuse.

LOL!!!!

onlykelsey

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #228 on: January 15, 2016, 06:05:46 PM »

There are Hotel School Grads and then there are hotel school grads.  I suspect a Cornell hospitality/hotel degree may be worth taking out some loans.  An associates' degree from your friendly neighborhood community college, maybe not so much.  (And, perversely, the amount of debt per year for a student from a typical working class family is likely going to be less at Cornell--assuming s/he is accepted.)

I benefited incredibly from Cornell's aid program. I believe all ivies are need-based (no merit), which was incredibly lucky for 17 year old me who paid ~10% of tuition.

Captain and Mrs Slow

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #229 on: January 18, 2016, 09:31:01 AM »
What I dislike about this forum here is the harsh judgmental attitude I see, perhaps itís a take on Mustacheís hair on fire attitude. I donít know, but I think it seems from people confusing personal responsibility with good public policy. You donít have to dig deep to see there is a huge problem with student debt, the articles posted here about people fleeing the country to escape touch only scratch the surface. Hereís the part that I donít get the US government is the biggest holder of student debt* and they are the most onerous demanding task master! There is no forgiveness no mercy no second chances. The government goes to great lengths to protect their profits. To me itís a no brainer to say, yes you were stupid and went to a 2nd tier law school and got some useless degree and are now stuck at Wally mart for the rest of your life so going to make you a deal, weíll lower interest rate to prime and fix it to your income, after 25 years whatever is leftover is forgiven tax free. Weíll keep the payment low enough so you can get a head start on life but not too low so you have no incentive not to pay them off or to get ahead.


* I canít find the article where it talked about this, if I do Iíll post it
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nobodyspecial

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #230 on: January 18, 2016, 12:10:52 PM »
Alternately you could fund the state universities from the state. Have some control on what courses they offer, eg. we need engineers, medics, scientists but not so many PR, golf course management or sociology degrees.
Then the state could get back the money by the extra taxes these people paid and the successful businesses they created.

But it's probably more efficient to write off massive debts to people who spent $200k on law school to become actors. That's why I'm a physicist not an economist.




FLA

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #231 on: January 18, 2016, 12:34:02 PM »
Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.

+1

nobodyspecial

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #232 on: January 18, 2016, 01:09:33 PM »
Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
But it's not like they weren't given lots of information about the poor ROI of most further education, classes on analysis of future job markets and an even-handed consideration of the benefits of college during their high-school years.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #233 on: January 18, 2016, 01:43:51 PM »
This forum is about people who choose to better their lives partly through recognizing how lucky they already have it, and by working hard early in life so they can buy their own freedom from labor. 

Sure, I enjoy a wry chuckle at the misadventures of some of the misguided in this particular portion of the forum, but that never includes people who just had a shitty hand of cards dealt to them.  I admire people all the more who take that shitty hand of cards and make good on it, but I am not going to expect that as a requirement for me to allow them a little dignity. 

By mocking those in pain you only make yourself look weak. 

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #234 on: January 18, 2016, 03:43:34 PM »
You donít have to dig deep to see there is a huge problem with student debt.

Exactly. You have to wonder then with this story being so widely reported in the media why then there are still so many people signing up for these loans still and agreeing to the terms being given on them?   As always but even more so now ignorance is no excuse. 

Making Cookies

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #235 on: January 19, 2016, 07:31:53 AM »
Perhaps the 18/20-somethings of 2016 don't watch the news?

mm1970

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #236 on: January 19, 2016, 05:05:25 PM »
Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
But it's not like they weren't given lots of information about the poor ROI of most further education, classes on analysis of future job markets and an even-handed consideration of the benefits of college during their high-school years.
This is a very good point (I hope this was tongue in cheek?)

Even in our elementary school, with a lot of poor kids (70%), they are already pushing college.  But you know that at the high school level, there isn't a single class on how to navigate paying for it, what it is worth to study, or if you should even go.

34% of the kids parents didn't graduate high school.  I don't see this ending well for many of them.  It's pretty ridiculous.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #237 on: January 23, 2016, 08:33:31 AM »
Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
But it's not like they weren't given lots of information about the poor ROI of most further education, classes on analysis of future job markets and an even-handed consideration of the benefits of college during their high-school years.
This is a very good point (I hope this was tongue in cheek?)

Even in our elementary school, with a lot of poor kids (70%), they are already pushing college.  But you know that at the high school level, there isn't a single class on how to navigate paying for it, what it is worth to study, or if you should even go.

34% of the kids parents didn't graduate high school.  I don't see this ending well for many of them.  It's pretty ridiculous.

I hope that was sarcasm.  I finished high school in 2000.  We got a LOT of pushing to go to college.  Education debt was "good debt".  No formal discussion on an appropriate amount of debt, and a pervasive attitude that if you got into an out-of-state school, it was going to be "better" than the local state university (which is laughable as our school was <1 hour drive from TWO highly ranked state schools--either of them would have been a better choice than the private school I initially chose).  My parents were immigrants so had zero experience of the US education system, and honestly, college costs had skyrocketed so much since other people's parents had gone to school that I don't think very many parents had a good idea of how the financial aspect worked.

There was also surprisingly little formal discussion of what careers might pay best or offer the most stable employment opportunities.  You really had to seek all of that out on your own, and at 17-18 with school pushing you to just take as many AP courses as possible, get the max SAT scores, write the perfect essay, and then just trust that would get you into a "good" school, I can see why a lot of people (myself included) didn't do all that much research.  I know my parents also did very little scrutiny--my dad did push me to consider math/science/engineering but he never explicitly said "you will likely make more money and have a better shot at finding a job".  I'd also never really had to figure out a budget or buy things for myself.  About the only thing I had going in my favor is that I did have a strong sense that putting money into savings was important. I started off majoring in international relations and assumed I would get some glamorous job at the state department.  I was at a $30k/yr private school and had a scholarship that covered half the cost, so I thought I was all set.  Luckily for me I had actually placed out of a lot of the intro courses (all those AP's pay off!) and so had several classes with a lot of seniors/juniors.  After overhearing a lot of conversations about how their best job prospects seemed to pay only $25k/yr (in Washington DC, not exactly a cheap town), I started doing some VERY rough budgeting in my head.  I concluded that if I came out of college with more than $15k in debt, I was screwed.  I also looked a little more closely at the loan programs and realized that each year I would be "eligible" for more and more loans.  My father was incredibly vague about how much money he was willing to kick in, but it was increasingly looking like if a loan was available, I would be expected to take it.  At the same time, I wasn't really liking my international relations classes that much.  I freaked out, transferred back to the state school after my freshman year, and switched to a science major.  Thanks to my stupid first year decision, I did wind up with a little under $15k in debt, I shudder to think what I might have wound up with if I'd stayed at the private school.  I paid my debt off in 4 years and it is REALLY nice not to have that looming over me.

All that said, I do NOT feel bad for people who rack up tons of debt going to grad school.  At that point, you've presumably had at least 3 years out of your parents house and have either taken on debt yourself or seen your peers take on a load of debt.  You should have gotten a better idea of how some degrees/fields pay better than others. I remember when I was finishing undergrad I ran into so many people who were going to grad school largely to defer paying their undergraduate loans, ignoring the part where they were going to take on MORE loans for grad school.  That is dumb and if someone took on additional loans for that reason...sorry, hope you enjoyed that extra few years of putting things off.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #238 on: January 26, 2016, 08:38:33 AM »
Got another one... here's somebody who never asked: "all right, what's this going to cost me really?" and who, despite a Very Speshul Private Skool Edumacation, never seemed quite capable of doing research or performing basic addition.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2016/01/student_loan_crisis_at_its_ugliest_i_graduated_and_found_out_i_owe_200_000.html
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mm1970

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #239 on: January 26, 2016, 11:03:54 AM »
Quote
There was also surprisingly little formal discussion of what careers might pay best or offer the most stable employment opportunities.  You really had to seek all of that out on your own, and at 17-18 with school pushing you to just take as many AP courses as possible, get the max SAT scores, write the perfect essay, and then just trust that would get you into a "good" school, I can see why a lot of people (myself included) didn't do all that much research.  I know my parents also did very little scrutiny--my dad did push me to consider math/science/engineering but he never explicitly said "you will likely make more money and have a better shot at finding a job".  I'd also never really had to figure out a budget or buy things for myself.  About the only thing I had going in my favor is that I did have a strong sense that putting money into savings was important. I started off majoring in international relations and assumed I would get some glamorous job at the state department.  I was at a $30k/yr private school and had a scholarship that covered half the cost, so I thought I was all set.  Luckily for me I had actually placed out of a lot of the intro courses (all those AP's pay off!) and so had several classes with a lot of seniors/juniors.  After overhearing a lot of conversations about how their best job prospects seemed to pay only $25k/yr (in Washington DC, not exactly a cheap town), I started doing some VERY rough budgeting in my head.  I concluded that if I came out of college with more than $15k in debt, I was screwed.  I also looked a little more closely at the loan programs and realized that each year I would be "eligible" for more and more loans.  My father was incredibly vague about how much money he was willing to kick in, but it was increasingly looking like if a loan was available, I would be expected to take it.  At the same time, I wasn't really liking my international relations classes that much.  I freaked out, transferred back to the state school after my freshman year, and switched to a science major.  Thanks to my stupid first year decision, I did wind up with a little under $15k in debt, I shudder to think what I might have wound up with if I'd stayed at the private school.  I paid my debt off in 4 years and it is REALLY nice not to have that looming over me.

This was a very interesting read.

When I first got out of the Navy, I went into manufacturing.  I had to interview another potential engineer.  I asked her "what made you major in chemical engineering".

The answer?  A bet.

She fell into engineering by LUCK.  When she turned 18, she was still a senior in HS, and her mother kicked her out.  She ended up living with an older sister to finish HS.  She got a full time job as a cashier at a grocery store.  She started taking classes (part time) at the community college, in art history.

One day, she heard some guys complaining about how hard calculus was.  She said, confidently "it's not that hard".  So they bet her that she couldn't get an A in calc. She took it, got an A, and asked herself "what the hell am I doing in art history?"  Changed her major to chemistry, eventually engineering, and transferred to the state uni.  Her coworkers at the grocery store told her "you'll be back".  She worked there until she graduated.

Here's a girl/woman whose parents did not go to college, and knew nothing of choosing a major and navigating loans, schools, etc.
I see this as pretty common.

In my parent's day, a college degree, any degree, was your "ticket", so to speak.  Because not many people went.  It's not true anymore.

therethere

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #240 on: January 26, 2016, 11:14:08 AM »
The above resonates with me. I fell into engineering because I wanted to go to a school smaller than my 800 person per grade high school that wasn't filled with idiot liberal arts majors which I couldn't stand. Those were my only two considerations. I ended up in a small private engineering school. I was doing awful senior year in high school (skipping most of my classes and almost didn't graduate) because I didn't care. But I knew my 99% in chemistry would make me a shoe in to get accepted at an engineering school as a woman. I switched out of chemistry the first week of school. I did not even know what engineers did until my 3rd or 4th year.

So yeah, you really believe that 16/17year olds are going to research the cost of college, return cost on their major, unemployment in their field, interest they will pay on loans all on their own accord? Hell no. Nah... We mostly picked at random because everyone told you college was the next step. Have you ever seen the amount of marketing materials juniors in high school get? I think I got at least a full bank file box filled to the brim.
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golden1

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #241 on: January 26, 2016, 11:28:55 AM »
My daughter is in 8th grade and is already feeling the college pressure, mostly because she is very bright and is in the classes that are "expected" to go to college and "expected" to go to the best college they can get into regardless of cost.  But she has no idea what she wants to do at this age of course.  She likes doing creative, artistic work, but I do stress to her that she needs to be pragmatic when it comes down to what she wants to do.  She has a set amount for school that we have put away for her and that is it.  It is about enough for 4 years at a state school or 1.5 years at a more expensive private college.  If she wants to do a more creative career that will likely pay less, she needs to balance that with how much she wants to pay for school.  She basically has a budget, and she will have to make the choice about whether it makes sense to go into debt for a certain degree. 

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #242 on: February 12, 2016, 09:36:42 PM »
Perhaps the 18/20-somethings of 2016 don't watch the news?


LOL!!!!!  I'm sure they would see something about college debt on their smartphones.

CATman

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #243 on: February 12, 2016, 10:35:18 PM »
Here's my problem with these people, I have absolutely 0 sympathy for them.

I went to school over 5 years and racked up a huge amount of debt, right around 100k. I admit it was idiotic and I should have never done it. I had no idea what impact that kind of debt was going to have on my life. I even partied it up along the way and took a sweet cruise one year for spring break on those loan dollars. Frankly, I didn't even know how ignorant I was. I worked my behind off and hustled to every job interview, job fair, networking opportunity I could so I made sure I secured a job before graduation. Then my entire first year after college I held down a part time job while working full time as a secondary school teacher. It meant I missed out on lots, but it kept the bills paid. Then I changed careers for a bit. But ended up taking a position that paid less than I made teaching and because of the retail schedule made finding a second job very difficult. Eventually I found a new position and a couple of weeks into that job I found another part time job on the weekend which I worked up until I was able to secure enough raises to make enough to get ahead. I worked full time and part time on the weekends for years. I even worked at bars so I would sit there and watch my other friends having a wonderful time while I was embarrassed I had to work 2 jobs to keep my loans at bay.

Fast forward to today and I'm making over 100k and aggressively working on debt reduction. I'm 29, but I have seen the rampant feeling of entitlement that runs though people my age and younger. For the life of me I can't figure out why people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. I don't tell my story to get a pat on the back, but I tell it because it's 100% possible to make it. These people just decided to give up and now the rest of us shoulder their burden. It makes me sick.

Disclaimer: I do believe the loan system for higher education is a form of modern indentured servitude.  What better way to keep people in the workforce then forcing them to work there. We need some major reforms around lending, but we also need schools to do a better job of teaching young children that college isn't for everyone instead of indoctrinating them with the message that they have to go to college to be successful in life.

TL;DR If you take out loans, find a damn way to pay them back. There's always a way even if you may not like the sacrifice.

clarkevii

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #244 on: February 13, 2016, 07:53:59 AM »
Here's my problem with these people, I have absolutely 0 sympathy for them.

I went to school over 5 years and racked up a huge amount of debt, right around 100k. I admit it was idiotic and I should have never done it. I had no idea what impact that kind of debt was going to have on my life. I even partied it up along the way and took a sweet cruise one year for spring break on those loan dollars. Frankly, I didn't even know how ignorant I was. I worked my behind off and hustled to every job interview, job fair, networking opportunity I could so I made sure I secured a job before graduation. Then my entire first year after college I held down a part time job while working full time as a secondary school teacher. It meant I missed out on lots, but it kept the bills paid. Then I changed careers for a bit. But ended up taking a position that paid less than I made teaching and because of the retail schedule made finding a second job very difficult. Eventually I found a new position and a couple of weeks into that job I found another part time job on the weekend which I worked up until I was able to secure enough raises to make enough to get ahead. I worked full time and part time on the weekends for years. I even worked at bars so I would sit there and watch my other friends having a wonderful time while I was embarrassed I had to work 2 jobs to keep my loans at bay.

Fast forward to today and I'm making over 100k and aggressively working on debt reduction. I'm 29, but I have seen the rampant feeling of entitlement that runs though people my age and younger. For the life of me I can't figure out why people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. I don't tell my story to get a pat on the back, but I tell it because it's 100% possible to make it. These people just decided to give up and now the rest of us shoulder their burden. It makes me sick.

Disclaimer: I do believe the loan system for higher education is a form of modern indentured servitude.  What better way to keep people in the workforce then forcing them to work there. We need some major reforms around lending, but we also need schools to do a better job of teaching young children that college isn't for everyone instead of indoctrinating them with the message that they have to go to college to be successful in life.

TL;DR If you take out loans, find a damn way to pay them back. There's always a way even if you may not like the sacrifice.

Great post. I left school with 35k in debt. I worked two jobs sometimes to the tune of 90 per week. I made great money at the time and I learned the importance of hustle. The people who are giving up make me sick as well. They are basically leaving us with the tab.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #245 on: February 13, 2016, 12:39:37 PM »
Here's my problem with these people, I have absolutely 0 sympathy for them.


TL;DR If you take out loans, find a damn way to pay them back. There's always a way even if you may not like the sacrifice.

Great post. I left school with 35k in debt. I worked two jobs sometimes to the tune of 90 per week. I made great money at the time and I learned the importance of hustle. The people who are giving up make me sick as well. They are basically leaving us with the tab.

I do have some sympathy. Gotta remember that a large portion of these people are simply stupid, college degrees notwithstanding. The lower bar for college is well under 100IQ, and the less valuable degrees attract the less intelligent students. Many of the others are naive, poorly educated, and brought up in a society that does not encourage forward thinking.
My only saving grace was a visceral dislike to owing money, plus parents who supported and guided me. I might have been one of these idiots without that. None of that excuses giving up, or not paying the money back, but I do understand why these people feel cheated. They were promised X, and got the real world instead.

clarkevii

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #246 on: February 13, 2016, 02:48:39 PM »
I disagree.

You do not need great intelligence to learn hustle. And an IQ of 90 can save with the best of us. Will they get ahead and FIRE by 40 probably not. Can they do the right thing and pay their loans back? Yes of course they can. All it takes is discipline and focus.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #247 on: February 13, 2016, 04:54:17 PM »

I do have some sympathy. Gotta remember that a large portion of these people are simply stupid, college degrees notwithstanding. The lower bar for college is well under 100IQ, and the less valuable degrees attract the less intelligent students. Many of the others are naive, poorly educated, and brought up in a society that does not encourage forward thinking.
My only saving grace was a visceral dislike to owing money, plus parents who supported and guided me. I might have been one of these idiots without that. None of that excuses giving up, or not paying the money back, but I do understand why these people feel cheated. They were promised X, and got the real world instead.

We're all allowed to be stupid. I was extremely stupid for a long time. Eventually you come to a fork in the road where you realize you have to pay for that stupidity. You can either run away from it or stand your ground to grind out the hard work to fix the mess you made. These people chose to run. I can guarantee you they're not over in Europe working 60-80 hours a week to pay off those loans. They're over there working a normal 9-5 or less because they want to "enjoy life" and not just pay back their loans. The loans they signed up for, stupid or not.

nobodyspecial

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #248 on: February 13, 2016, 07:08:05 PM »
Hard to really blame people who worked hard at school, took all those AP classes in hard math subjects so that they could be the first in their family to go to college and get a good job.  Then graduated from the best engineering schools with degrees in chemical engineering, oil field geology or mine engineering.
How silly of them to not have forseen a global oil price drop 6 years earlier when they were choosing high school AP classes.

I managed to graduate with a fancy PhD in nuclear physics - right into the end of the cold war. I should have seen that one coming, even if the CIA didn't.

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #249 on: February 13, 2016, 10:17:42 PM »
Hard to really blame people who worked hard at school, took all those AP classes in hard math subjects so that they could be the first in their family to go to college and get a good job.  Then graduated from the best engineering schools with degrees in chemical engineering, oil field geology or mine engineering.
How silly of them to not have forseen a global oil price drop 6 years earlier when they were choosing high school AP classes.

I managed to graduate with a fancy PhD in nuclear physics - right into the end of the cold war. I should have seen that one coming, even if the CIA didn't.

It is when you can make a more than decent living with room to pay your debts in a field that is totally unrelated to your degree. No one says you can't go to that field later in life if it's your passion, but just to give up because you can't find a job instantly isn't an excuse.