Author Topic: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....  (Read 84062 times)

Sofa King

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HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« on: April 18, 2015, 12:25:51 PM »
When they agreed to the terms of their loans and signed on the dotted line. I guess these people thought because they went to college when they got out people would start throwing $$$$$ at them. Welcome to the real world! There are many who complain they are broke and can't pay their loan yet they keep shitting out baby after baby and wonder why. Some very interesting stories here. Site is updated with new stories all the time.   http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/

JoeP

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2015, 02:50:19 PM »
When they agreed to the terms of their loans and signed on the dotted line. I guess these people thought because they went to college when they got out people would start throwing $$$$$ at them. Welcome to the real world! There are many who complain they are broke and can't pay their loan yet they keep shitting out baby after baby and wonder why. Some very interesting stories here. Site is updated with new stories all the time.   http://studentdebtcrisis.org/read-student-debt-stories/

If they are posting on that website that means they have access to internet.  Instead of posting about how hard they have it why not do a google search on "how to pay off student loans quickly".  There are tons of stories and how-to's that give good advice.  Or maybe they should use the studentdebtcrisis.org website to find people in the same town that they can share a house with to help defray cost and pay down student loans.

There are always ways to climb out of debt but it requires sacrifice.  You can't keep shoveling money out the door the same old way and expect to come out on top when you have accrued massive debt.  I find it hard to sympathize when I read these stories because I was in the same position once. I had massive debt, wife and kid, and I was the only income producer at the time. I managed to pay off my debt in 3 years by living on a tight budget and foregoing cable, cell, car, vacations, and avoiding eating out.

I think an MMM face punch is probably in order for 99.9% of the people who are posting on that website.

bzzzt

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2015, 03:30:22 PM »
Been saying this for years, but a degree does not prove that you're intelligent. Most people also happen to be whiners on top of it. Fuck your idea of your dream job and get one that pays your bills!

If my son doesn't have a passion by the time he's college age, I'd rather throw down $4k for a one month truck driving school and let him drive around for a few years earning a living instead of "finding himself" for $15-30k/year in tuition and housing. Thankfully, it only took one semester of college to realize it wasn't for me. I have an engineering mindset but I really have a hard time putting up with busy work (half of undergrad).

Compounding interest can be a beautiful thing or a nightmare. I prefer to let it work for me.

crispy

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2015, 05:06:14 PM »
Some of the loans posted weren't even that large and they have been paying them off for years and years.  it shouldn't take a person who is making a decent salary 20 years to pay off a 39K in student loans.

I am somewhat sympathetic.  I had no guidance at all for college.  My parents were both high school drop-outs, and I am the only one of my siblings that went to college.  My parents basically kicked me out at 18 and my mom encouraged me to take out as many loans as possible because she assumed a college degree would mean I was making big bucks.  I knew I was going to have to pay whatever I borrowed back and having spent my life in poverty, I wasn't  willing to be saddled with a bunch of debt.  I had a good scholarship, but I still worked and applied for grants to minimize the amount of loans that I took out.  I was responsible for books and room and board for my four years in school and got out with 8K in loans.  I am so thankful I didn't listen to my mom.  Many friends graduated with sky high loans and into an economy that tanked.  I have mostly worked in the government and non-profit sector so my earnings have never been sky high, but I paid off the loans I had quickly and have had a lot more financial freedom than many who earn more.

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2015, 12:10:45 AM »
Here are a few of the stories told. I really have to wonder WTF were some of these people thinking. Alot of "oh poor poor me" going on.

1)  I'm 37 years old and I owe over $200,000 in education debt. I went back to college after dropping out when I was younger. I completed my bachelor's at age 30 (2006) and my master's at age 32 (2008). I have yet to find a full time job in any field. The only jobs available would not pay enough for me to live in my area. I have done volunteer work after volunteer work to keep up skills, but no one will hire me. My self-esteem and confidence has taken a nose dive, and my anxiety about my future has become a disorder. Now I'm in a self-fulfilling cycle of lack of confidence, messing up an interview, then reaffirming my poor self-image. It's extremely frustrating. I have all these skills, and no one will give me a chance. I just want to be self-sufficient. Is that too much to ask?
Heather  June 14, 2013  Rhode Island

2)  In my 30's after paying off my undergrad degree I returned to University to become a Chiropractor. I met another Chiropractor and married a year before I graduated. My first child was born a week after graduation. After my wife graduated we moved overseas to Australia her home. Twins came shortly after. Due to poor exchange rate and income not growing as fast as we wanted, we were unable to keep up regular payments. A fourth child arrived in 2002. A divorce, in 2005, hit hard and several years later I went into personal bankruptcy- I was unable to write off my debt. I have been living on edge, paying for my children, and unable to borrow or pay off my loans which now have hit 150,000.00. I find it absurd that I was not able to write off my loans with banckruptcy . Now age 55 I wonder if I will ever be able to pay off these ratings and retire. I am incensed when I hear that the children of politicians do not have pay their loans. I would have paid off these loans if I had been able. MLL
Anonymous  September 11, 2013

3)  I am a single 57 year-old woman who went back to college when I was 48. I decided to go back to earn an education in a career that would help me fund my retirement as I spent most of my adulthood as a single parent and working as a counselor in the mental health field. I enrolled in a technical school who told me the average amount of time it took to finish the course was 2-3 years. I and fellow students found out later that the average time it takes is 5-7 years. Now, after 4 years in the program, I not only ran out of student aid to pay to finish the program, I am $65,000 in rating with Federal Student Aid loans and $15,000 in debt with private education loans and still working in the human services field getting paid $12.82 an hour. I have devoted my life to my kids and working as a care giver in the mental health field and will not even be able to support myself in retirement.
Anonymous  September 12, 2013

4)  My daughter went to an expensive school - NYU - Being the first in our family to obtain a 4 year degree was quite the reward for hard work. We knew it would be expensive and the school advised that she was not eligible for Government backed student loans but I was eligible for the Parent Plus Loans to cover her costs. As a single parent, I was not about to dash her dreams. She has now graduated, working at a job that pays minimum wage. I had to take my Social Security at the earliest age so that I could pay back the Parent Plus Loan. My entire Social Security check (with $50 leftover) goes to the loan. The 8% interest rate (after the .25% reduction for direct pay) means that even after 3 years of payment, the principal barely moves. I can not hope to pay this loan off in my lifetime, with never having the life enjoyment my SS may have provided. My daughter had hoped to relieve me of at least some of this debt, but she too has Perkins and Stafford loans to pay. The interest rate is sooo unfair and made 10 times worse that it is my Government who is taking it, after having worked 30 years for my State Government.
Kathy  October 14, 2014  Schenectady, NY

5)  I attended college as a single father with two young sons. I took out student loans while in college to help raise my sons. I used the money to pay for rent, utilities and groceries. That was over twenty years ago. I graduated with approximately $62000 in debt. I offered to make affordable monthly payments but the amount that I could afford was not enough for the lenders. They put my loans in default and began garnishing my wages. Since that time, more than 18 years ago, I have paid back over $130,000 on my $62000 debt and I still owe nearly $60,000. It is criminal what they do to us. I have made a student loan payment every two weeks (albeit a garnishment) for the last 18+ years. I teach at a community college and make an average living as a result of my education. I am thankful for what my education has afforded me, but my loans remain in default because I cannot afford the payment that they expect. It is a helpless feeling, one of being completely trapped.
Bruce Myers  January 20, 2015  Illinois

6)  I wanted a job as a physical therapist. The job requires that you get a doctorate now (this however does not mean you make more money as its field that pays based on years of experience). So I owed $167,000 in unsub and $47,000k in sub loans at graduation. The interest at 7% has accumulated to about $40,000-so I owe over $230,000. I am on IBR repayment and pay $600/month. The interest that accures every month is over $1000. So everytime I pay $600, $400+ gets added on to my loan. I will never be able to touch my principal at this rate. Why is my hard earned money going into someones pocket and making them rich instead of paying off my debt that I so desperately want to get rid of? Why am I being punished for trying to have a career and help the economy? Which max I may make $65k/yr in take home. Why is my boyfriends mortgage interest rate only 3.75% and I have 7% on my student loans? These equations just don't add up. I'm working towards public service loan forgiveness but now I understand that the amount forgiven may be capped, so the light at the end of my tunnel is disappearing :/
Geanna  January 24, 2015  Salt Lake City, UT

7)  I am more than $100,000 in school debt. My dream to ascertain a Ph.D in Organizational Behavior and become an Administrator in higher education is no longer viable. With my current student debt so high, I can't afford housing, a reliable car or everyday things like going out to dinner with my girlfriend. This is not the American dream, this is a nightmare. My Mom always told me getting a College degree will increase your earnings potential in the job market. This has not come to fruition. The only thing pursuing a degree in higher education has got me is: saddled in debt and stress. My dream is gone, the thing that remains is the collateral damage called school loans.
robert needles  March 27, 2015

Argyle

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2015, 02:59:06 AM »
Well, I don't find it hard to feel sorry for them.  They meant well, they didn't intend to cheat anyone or be dishonest.  They made unwise choices and now are stuck in a terrible cycle of debt.  I don't think it helps to pour scorn on people who made unwise choices.  I've made many in my day, not so much with money, but certainly in other realms, and it was sheer luck that I emerged fairly unscathed.  If negotiating this complicated world were easy, more people would be better at it.

Davids

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2015, 05:08:43 AM »
I admit i feel a little sorry for #5.

dcheesi

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2015, 05:09:44 AM »
Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 05:15:20 AM by dcheesi »

Elliot

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2015, 10:17:58 AM »
Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.


This. Additionally parents and high schools push hard to go to college. They paint a very rosy picture of college life in general, and tell you that college degrees automatically mean a very comfortable wage and that jobs grow on trees if you only go to college...

crispy

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2015, 11:13:44 AM »
Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.


This. Additionally parents and high schools push hard to go to college. They paint a very rosy picture of college life in general, and tell you that college degrees automatically mean a very comfortable wage and that jobs grow on trees if you only go to college...

I also wonder if the parents were like my mom who encouraged me to borrow as much as possible. She assumed that a college education meant big money.  I am fortunate that my dad was always very anti-debt and I took after him.  I could have very well found myself in a very similar situation.

Hank Sinatra

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2015, 12:10:53 PM »
Fortunately I had a very well developed, deep distrust of "grown-ups" that had been  formed and nurtured by parents and every teacher I ever had. I totally sh1tcanned that false yabba-jabba idea of College-as-Messiah. I asked questions. "How much? Best field of study? What's the payoff?" "Why the hell am i doing this, exactly?"  Assholes (adolts) had no answers.  Like a TV pitchman or someone on a hallucinogenic drug, just kept spouting the same  "ya gotta go to college"... BECAUSE! mantra.   Is it gonna cost me (a poor person with poor parents) money? Then why would I burden myself with it? I eventually got several degrees  for almost no cost to me and none were for money. All fields of avocation. I was already getting paid. I was just "punching my ticket" and filling a square.

There are other ways to earn a living, make money,  get a degree or other job training than force feeding  yourself into college  3 months after high school.


Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2015, 12:11:48 PM »
  They made unwise choices and now are stuck in a terrible cycle of debt.  I don't think it helps to pour scorn on people who made unwise choices.

This whole section the the board IS for people who made "unwise choices". Thats why it is called "wall of shame and comedy".

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2015, 12:14:16 PM »
I admit i feel a little sorry for #5.

Not me when he used the loan money for this. From #5: "I took out student loans while in college to help raise my sons. I used the money to pay for rent, utilities and groceries".

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2015, 12:18:46 PM »
Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.


There are MANY people on this link who were adults who should have know better yet still took out HUGE loans. Many even after graduating went back and took out even more bigger loans to go back to school again.  LOL!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 12:31:19 PM by Sofa King »

centwise

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2015, 01:05:18 PM »
Random comments: I do feel sorry for some of them, up to a point. Perhaps the interest rates on student loans should be lower. (But the loans need to paid back, dammit!)

A lot of people complain about not having a "normal life", "having to drive a used car" and being unable to afford restaurants. Well, I think buying a new car is a bad decision no matter what your income bracket is! And I like MMM's view of restaurants: eating out is (mostly) for people who can afford to HIRE SOMEONE to cook, serve and clean up after them, not people with hair-on-fire debts.

Here's an interesting one:
"I served this country to protect the rights of everyone here, including myself. I'm 45, I don't own a house, I drive a used car and I pay student loans. Why are people born in this country paying interest on an education? I'm far from racist,(filipina girlfriend), but why am I paying for something I needed to improve and all can move here and live and go to school on my dime??! Interest is covering the government giving money away!"

1. Isn't there a government program in the US to help veterans go to college? Correct me if that's no longer the case.

2. Yes, drive a used car and pay off your loans. Absolutely. You are in debt.

3. Isn't that a racist comment? "I can't be racist because my girlfriend is nonwhite"?

4. Translation: Government money should pay for MY education! Not anyone else's!!

5. Apart from refugees, don't a lot of immigrants have to prove that they have means or can earn a living before they can immigrate? Many of them were educated in their home countries and are bringing their needed skills to the US.

mm1970

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2015, 01:16:40 PM »
Keep in mind that most people with student loan debt were clueless teenagers when they committed to the loans. For many, it is the first adult financial decision they ever had to make in their lives.


This. Additionally parents and high schools push hard to go to college. They paint a very rosy picture of college life in general, and tell you that college degrees automatically mean a very comfortable wage and that jobs grow on trees if you only go to college...
Yes, that also goes to what crispy said.

Clueless teenager is true, our brains don't fully mature until the 20's.  People who don't come from money and don't come from families who went to college are at an extreme disadvantage - they don't know how valuable a particular degree is - their parents say "just go to college" - they don't know how important networking is, and they often don't know how hard it is to pay off loans.

I didn't know ANY of that and my mom worked at a bank!  But I'm just lucky I got a bunch of scholarships and had jobs and only had $11k in debt.

I feel especially bad for the guy who has paid back $130k and still owes $60k on an original $62k.

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2015, 01:28:48 PM »
Like many others cry babies on this site this one just sounds like she just doesn't feel like paying back the loan that was taken out. At 22 she can't work and pay off $32,000 in a reasonable amount of time? Many people take out car loans more than this and seem to find a way to pay it back. 


"I am 22 and I just finished a 2 year hospitality diploma. I am now flat broke and over $32,000 in student debt. My dream is to travel the world and that is the whole reason I got into this tourism diploma. Ironically, this student debt is going to hold me back from travelling. It's crippling and I feel desperate and hopeless. I wish I had never gone to university. It's not worth it.
Kaitlin R  April 1, 2015  Kamloops, BC"

Elliot

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2015, 01:57:35 PM »
Wait what is a hospitality diploma? Is that a made-up thing that the diploma mill for-profit schools make up?

bzzzt

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2015, 02:14:09 PM »
Wait what is a hospitality diploma? Is that a made-up thing that the diploma mill for-profit schools make up?

Pretty much. Just like most degrees today (my opinion).

Take someone who thinks things can only be taught in school settings, add working class parents who hear you need to go to college, head to diploma mill, get "degree" for "Culinary Arts", end up making bread at Panera for $12/hr 30hrs/week (part time because employers don't want to pay benefits) with 30-40k student loan debt for a job you could've done after watching a 2hr training video and two weeks of OJT.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 02:19:25 PM by bzzzt »

centwise

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2015, 02:15:05 PM »
No idea what that particular "hospitality diploma" involved, but the hospitality industry generally has to do with tourism. If you live in a region where tourism is big, the industry (hotel/restaurant, cruises, entertainment, guided tours, water sports, ziplining etc.) is the biggest sector employing people who don't have "higher" level skills and/or education.

I lived in LA for a while and I think such diploma programs were pretty common at the two-year colleges. (Edit: Mind you, I have no idea what they taught, or how the diploma correlated with employability!)

Roland of Gilead

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2015, 02:20:13 PM »
I totally agree with the OP and especially about people shitting out kids like a Pez dispenser when they can't even afford their own way in life.

bzzzt

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2015, 02:30:11 PM »
I totally agree with the OP and especially about people shitting out kids like a Pez dispenser when they can't even afford their own way in life.

That's because you don't hear people whip out the 7Ps enough anymore: Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. ;)

GetItRight

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2015, 03:02:23 PM »
I feel no sympathy for them. Many as has been mentioned have relatively small debt under $50k, like a typical consumer sucker car loan. I had six figure student loan debt, now 5 figure. I dropped out because I couldn't afford to finish (finally figured out sunk costs), and was sick of the scam like my school stealing $17k from me in cahoots with Sallie Mae and the absurd scheduling where they only run some classes once a year out of 4 quarters year round classes despite high demand which combined with absurd prerequisites drags the thing out additional years.

So I had six figure debt, paid minimums a year and change and finally got serious and paid more, got sick of paying nearly$20k/yr interest, finally paid enough that I could refinance elsewhere, did that, and been juggling things for better interest since then and eventually ramped up to paying $3k+/mo. Just over 2 years and I'll be done with it, then another year or two of that and the mortgage will be paid off. Investments will take off at that point and FIRE won't be far off.

I see the typical types on that site at whiny people with a violent side they don't have the courage to act upon themselves. I ended up on their mailing list and they lobby and petition to use government violence to steal from the productive class to pay off their student loans for them. Absolutely disgusting. Staggering debt from bad decisions seems to either push people to desperation and lobbying for government to do their dirty work, or drive them to determination, as it did with me, to be frugal, dig out, and never be in a bad financial position again. No sympathy. Those who call for "student loan debt forgiveness", a polite way of saying government violence, deserve no sympathy. Buckle down and dig your way out. If I can do it as a dropout surely those with bachelors and masters degrees can.

Cathy

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2015, 03:17:12 PM »
GetItRight's post is the first time that I have seen a system of required course prerequisites described as a "scam", but I actually think there is merit to that contention. The only real argument I can see in favour of mandatory prerequisites is if there is a large amount of demand for the class such that the school wants to filter out people less likely to be successful in the class in favour of those who would be more successful. However, if the demand is really that excessive, the school could just teach another instance of the class. I am sceptical that making prerequisites nonmandatory would have a significant effect on who enrolls in the class.

The way my school worked is that if you completed a class without having completed the prerequisites, you did not receive credit for the class, no matter how well you did. Nothing stopped you from enrolling in the class or attending it, you just wouldn't receive credit. If you wanted to take the class for credit, there was a tedious process where you could fill out a number of forms, provide a detailed argument of why you did not need the prerequisites, and then hope for the best as the application was adjudicated under unknown standards. You had to do this for each individual course.

I was not interested in complying with the official procedure, so I simply asked the department overseeing my degree program to waive all prerequisites for me. I met with the Associate Dean and he accepted my argument that there was no harm in allowing me to receive credit for a course that I had done well in. On that basis, he waived all prerequisites and I did not have to take any prerequisite courses during my university career. I would not have been impressed if I had actually been required to comply with the prerequisite system.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 03:20:09 PM by Cathy »
This post contains only general information on the issues raised by this topic. This post does not provide help tailored to your specific situation. There are many facts that could be relevant to your specific situation and I am not in possession of those facts. If you need help tailored to your specific situation, you should retain an appropriate professional and not rely on this post.

ReadyToStash

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2015, 04:59:01 PM »
Wow, those stories are horrifying. I wonder what a person has to be thinking when they go to private school on loans for a fashion degree. The thought of having your debt spiraling out of control, actively altering your life decisions is just...well, like I said, horrifying. I do feel sorry for most of them, though, because they just didn't know any better. It's not too late to fix, and I don't feel too bad for those that think living it up is a god-given right.

Karen

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2015, 06:40:20 AM »
I think I do sometimes have some degree of empathy for these whining people, if anything, because of how powerful the brainwashing of society can be to get an education at all costs and then get on the property ladder, pop out a couple of kids (despite the 6-figure debt) and give the newly created princes and princesses all of the experiences and fulfill all of their desires. I too was a product of that belief and, together with clueless parents, got a useless degree and racked up the huge sum of $15,000 student loans (hey, in the 90's, that WAS big money!). My husband came from the same type of background. Neither of us had any exposure to the MMM way and so, for a long time, lived like your average struggling citizen. However, we never popped out any offspring.

Now, in our late 30's and after working dead end jobs for meager pay have we been fortunate enough to"see the light" as it were. Someone touched on it and that's truck driving! Yes, two college grads have turned to trucking to achieve FI.

I've since had a real desire to introduce people who are struggling with student debt into the idea of trucking. In 2 years, a 2- person company team can earn enough to save about $120,000 (AND still have enough to live on). It's not easy though because this path is definitely seen as something"I could never do!" To add to my frustration, a lot of educated or aspirational people have this snobbery about trucking, almost as if one needs to sell his/her soul to the devil to become a trucker! Even though we're paid many many times better than your average cruise worker and even though our living conditions are unbelievably better, still, a cruise worker's job is judged as exciting and glamourous while ours is dirty and depressing.

I suppose that complaining on forums is very easy, asks nothing from the person and can provide relief for a second or two, but giving up one's home, training to drive a truck, staying out for weeks on end and living in a moving box actually requires effort and sacrifice.

I guess in the end, the old adage "You can lead a horse to water..." applies.
Check out the team trucking life!

www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com

Zamboni

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2015, 07:04:58 AM »
A big part of the problem is that these loans are often presented as part of a "financial aid" package.  Schools will even tout that "Everyone who goes here with a family income below $XXX receives full financial aid!"

It's all just BS if most of that "aid" is loans. 

I am quite thankful that both my Mom and a boss during the time I was in college frowned pretty seriously on student loans.  I was thinking about taking some for grad school, and both said "don't do it!"  So, I lived in $13K a year (in retrospect quite comfortably) the whole time I was a grad student instead of letting banks loan me another $10K per year as the aid package suggested. On paper I was living below the poverty line and below the amount I needed to live according to the school's calculation.  It meant staying away from expensive on-campus living/dining, sharing off-campus housing and utilities costs with roommates (5 people in a 3 bedroom apt), and very little money for things like clothes and luxuries like eating out.  But I was really lucky to have gotten this advice.

Many schools charge a huge amount for on campus living, dining, and amenities.  Many schools require students to partake in these inflated costs.  For example, at the private school near me all undergraduate students are required to live on campus and have a dining plan on campus for at least 3 years. And then, when it's clear a student doesn't have anywhere near that kind of money, they put some "generous" financial aid package together that says "Congratulations! we are covering 90% of your costs with aid!"  Most if not all of that "aid" is loans. 

What a scam.

I do feel sorry for several of these people.

zephyr911

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2015, 07:17:29 AM »
Random comments: I do feel sorry for some of them, up to a point. Perhaps the interest rates on student loans should be lower. (But the loans need to paid back, dammit!)

A lot of people complain about not having a "normal life", "having to drive a used car" and being unable to afford restaurants. Well, I think buying a new car is a bad decision no matter what your income bracket is! And I like MMM's view of restaurants: eating out is (mostly) for people who can afford to HIRE SOMEONE to cook, serve and clean up after them, not people with hair-on-fire debts.

Here's an interesting one:
"I served this country to protect the rights of everyone here, including myself. I'm 45, I don't own a house, I drive a used car and I pay student loans. Why are people born in this country paying interest on an education? I'm far from racist,(filipina girlfriend), but why am I paying for something I needed to improve and all can move here and live and go to school on my dime??! Interest is covering the government giving money away!"

1. Isn't there a government program in the US to help veterans go to college? Correct me if that's no longer the case.

2. Yes, drive a used car and pay off your loans. Absolutely. You are in debt.

3. Isn't that a racist comment? "I can't be racist because my girlfriend is nonwhite"?

4. Translation: Government money should pay for MY education! Not anyone else's!!

5. Apart from refugees, don't a lot of immigrants have to prove that they have means or can earn a living before they can immigrate? Many of them were educated in their home countries and are bringing their needed skills to the US.
Seriously... statistically, immigrants work the hardest at the shittiest jobs.
All debt except subsidized debt is subject to interest. Anyone who served even 3 years of qualifying service in the military can generally get all their college for free; even if that weren't the case for him, he chose to take on this debt, with full knowledge that interest applied. And that interest doesn't subsidize these mythical immigrant welfare programs, it pays for the cost of running the loan program. I hope he didn't study economics because if he did he clearly wasted his time.
As a career military guy, I am fucking incensed every time I encounter this kind of entitled bullshit from people who think that their service entitles them to a blank check in perpetuity from the government. And it is interesting that said entitled bullshit is always tied up in xenophobia and general anti-"other" hysteria, total hypocrisy about government benefits to anyone else who earned them any other way, and a total lack of self-awareness about that hypocrisy. They rail against socialism, and in the next breath demand their school, healthcare, and lavish lifestyle 100% paid for till they die. Fuck. Him.
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bzzzt

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2015, 07:40:25 AM »
I've since had a real desire to introduce people who are struggling with student debt into the idea of trucking. In 2 years, a 2- person company team can earn enough to save about $120,000 (AND still have enough to live on). It's not easy though because this path is definitely seen as something"I could never do!" To add to my frustration, a lot of educated or aspirational people have this snobbery about trucking, almost as if one needs to sell his/her soul to the devil to become a trucker! Even though we're paid many many times better than your average cruise worker and even though our living conditions are unbelievably better, still, a cruise worker's job is judged as exciting and glamourous while ours is dirty and depressing.

I suppose that complaining on forums is very easy, asks nothing from the person and can provide relief for a second or two, but giving up one's home, training to drive a truck, staying out for weeks on end and living in a moving box actually requires effort and sacrifice.

I guess in the end, the old adage "You can lead a horse to water..." applies.

People don't like to get out of their comfort zone.

I worked on out of town projects as a "travelling craft worker" for 3 years after the recession. Usually living in the cheapest (read: crappy) motel or rental house I could find depending on the duration of the project and we'd jam 3-5 guys in a 2bd, 1bath house to keep living costs down ($100-200/month). All I heard from people was "I could never do that", "That really sucks", "I could never leave my (spouse)", etc. Well, on my best year I knocked down 6 figures in 9 months.

Not bad for a guy with a high school degree and some course completion certificates.

I just started the process to get my Class A CDL. Two weeks ago, I got my medical card. Now, I'm waiting for a day off during the week to go take the written and get my permit.

El Gringo

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2015, 08:02:06 AM »
Absolutely I feel sorry for them. I had no idea what I was doing at 18 when I chose to go to a small liberal arts school. I am incredibly grateful that I came out with only $25,000 in debt, thanks to scholarships and my parents' support. Now that I'm 28 and about to finish paying off my loans I'm much wiser, but in a city and industry that view a master's degree almost as a basic requirement for most jobs. I feel incredible pressure to go back to school. The tension has been very stressful as I loathe the idea of taking on more debt, yet feel unable to boost my salary or take on more responsibilities without a damn master's degree.

In many of the cases above people were older but the overwhelming wisdom of the day is that a college degree is what will get you somewhere. They were doing what they thought was the right decision. Only recently is there starting to be a conversation about what kind of degree will get you ahead. I'm more angry at the education system that exploits people trying to get ahead through questionable marketing, while hiking tuition fees every year to pay for administrative salaries, while forcing a large portion of their actual educators to be on food stamps in order to survive.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 08:35:34 AM by El Gringo »

MandalayVA

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2015, 08:22:44 AM »
The first entry was enough to piss me off.  The poster claims to have a bachelor's degree and "half" of a masters yet is unable to spell "necessary" correctly--and it's not a typo either.  I've run into so many ostensible college graduates who can't spell, punctuate and/or use proper grammar, don't know the difference between "they're," "there" and "their," can't figure out a 15% tip on a restaurant check, etc.  So annoying.

I remember back in the Occupy days when the local news interviewed a young woman who was complaining loudly about having six-figure student loan debt that she felt the government should forgive.  She revealed that she and her husband hadn't worked in two years and they were surviving on handouts from their parents because "we're proud, we won't go on welfare."  The camera panned back to show her holding on to a stroller with a toddler in it ... and she was VISIBLY PREGNANT.  I almost bruised my face with the facepalm.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."  Hunter S. Thompson

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Karen

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2015, 08:36:44 AM »
Bzzzt: Good luck with CDL school! Just a bit of advice - while you're in school, get your background check and fingerprints done and study for your hazmat endorsement. As soon as you pass your final tests and go to the DMV for your CDL, take your hazmat test. Our company at least pays considerably more if you've got your hazmat.

BTW: I have a little blog if you are interested in finding out a little about what life on the road is like for a husband and wife team. (in case you have a SO who you might convince to give trucking a go!)

www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com

Karen
Check out the team trucking life!

www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com

pbkmaine

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2015, 09:34:23 AM »

Bzzzt: Good luck with CDL school! Just a bit of advice - while you're in school, get your background check and fingerprints done and study for your hazmat endorsement. As soon as you pass your final tests and go to the DMV for your CDL, take your hazmat test. Our company at least pays considerably more if you've got your hazmat.

BTW: I have a little blog if you are interested in finding out a little about what life on the road is like for a husband and wife team. (in case you have a SO who you might convince to give trucking a go!)

www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com

Karen

Love your blog! I would also like to see how you have fitted your rig out for full time living. Any photos planned?

Karen

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2015, 09:51:53 AM »
Pbkmaine: I purposely do not have photos just in case we may be in violation of company safety guidelines. For example, we use the top bunk as storage and to keep an extra 12-V fridge. Technically, that's not safe storing stuff on the top bunk.

Apart from that, we live quite simply. No fancy gadgets except an Ipod and laptop. We paid $150 for a year's internet access at the TA/Petro and don't have wandering Wifi. Our only cooking facility is 2 Roadpro stoves but they can do pretty much anything! The majority of our stuff is food and spices.

I enjoy "feathering the nest" by making cute bunting, making "wallpaper" by hanging a flowered cloth on the back wall, doing origami, if it doesn't cost, I will do it! My husband, happily, lets me make the truck as girly as I like!

Karen
Check out the team trucking life!

www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com

MgoSam

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2015, 10:28:55 AM »
I do feel bad for many people with student debt. Yes, there are ways many of them could sacrifice to make extra payments towards it and yes many of them made bad decisions in where to go to school (private versus in-state), and what to major in (liberal arts vs, just about everything else), but I know that I would be in their position had it not been for my parents saving up and put me through college. I have no leg to stand upon.

MrsPete

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2015, 10:36:45 AM »
Wait what is a hospitality diploma? Is that a made-up thing that the diploma mill for-profit schools make up?
You can get a degree -- sometimes it's a diploma program, not a full-fledged degree -- in hospitality.  That means you'd be qualified to work at a resort.  You know, in the hotel industry,maybe on a cruise ship ... the hospitality industry.  With this diploma you could be a party planner or work your way up to hotel manager. 

I have a few high school seniors who've gone that route, and they all see it as a way to be on vacation all the time! 

It's something an enterprising person could do with just a high school diploma. 

Hank Sinatra

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2015, 11:24:34 AM »
Quote
I have a few high school seniors who've gone that route, and they all see it as a way to be on vacation all the time! 

It's something an enterprising person could do with just a high school diploma.
[/quote]

"Enterprising"?  Got sh1t to do with it. It  depends on what the hiring dopes want to see. You got papers? good? No papers? Fock-off. Maybe an Eddie Haskell type could weasel his way in but normal people might need to spend something to get something. Employers are good  externalizing costs.


acanthurus

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2015, 11:31:28 AM »
I totally agree that people need to take personal responsibility for these student loans. Anyone that was dumb enough to loan tens of thousands of dollars to someone who should never have been in college so they could get a degree that wouldn't result in a job that would allow them to pay that loan back should probably take a haircut on the value of their debt assets.

Unfortunately those dummies were us via our government. I'm doing my part by trying to vote out the people inflating this student loan bubble and the cost of college in general by making all that easy student loan money available. Make college free, restrict it to those who need to be there, shape up the K-12 educational system so those diplomas mean something to employers, and most of all get off my lawn.

Numbers Man

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2015, 11:55:32 AM »
I guess I have a lot more empathy for these people then most of the posters on this thread. When I went to school tuition and room and board was reasonable and could be paid off via work and minimal student loans. I can't remember what the yearly damage was but I'm guessing it cost about $8k a year. Today, it's a disgrace what these Universities are charging. Not everyone is privy to wise counsel while they are 17 and 18 years old. There isn't an adult engaging in a constructive conversation with the student as to whether or not they have any prospects of snagging a job to pay off that student loan. Most people walk into that situation blissfully hoping for the best outcome.

I'm thinking that we are at the beginning of a new normal where people actually know of cousins and older friends in student loan hell and will question higher education's return on investment for their personal set of circumstances.

bzzzt

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2015, 12:50:16 PM »
Bzzzt: Good luck with CDL school! Just a bit of advice - while you're in school, get your background check and fingerprints done and study for your hazmat endorsement. As soon as you pass your final tests and go to the DMV for your CDL, take your hazmat test. Our company at least pays considerably more if you've got your hazmat.

BTW: I have a little blog if you are interested in finding out a little about what life on the road is like for a husband and wife team. (in case you have a SO who you might convince to give trucking a go!)

www.teamtruckinglife.blogspot.com

Karen

I'm luckier than most. The company I work for is in the utility industry, so while I won't be hauling freight, there is a lot of large equipment to move around. If I get my permit, they'll set me up with someone to get my hours in and let me take a truck/trailer for the test. I don't NEED it right now, but it's one hell of a backup plan, especially if someone else is paying for it. The more you're capable of doing, the more valuable you are to have around.

Nice blog, I'll have to try to stop by once in a while.

mm1970

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2015, 01:10:00 PM »
No idea what that particular "hospitality diploma" involved, but the hospitality industry generally has to do with tourism. If you live in a region where tourism is big, the industry (hotel/restaurant, cruises, entertainment, guided tours, water sports, ziplining etc.) is the biggest sector employing people who don't have "higher" level skills and/or education.

I lived in LA for a while and I think such diploma programs were pretty common at the two-year colleges. (Edit: Mind you, I have no idea what they taught, or how the diploma correlated with employability!)
I wonder. I remember meeting a woman when we were on our honeymoon (in Antigua) who worked in hospitality. She traveled a lot and worked at resorts, hotels, casinos, etc.  I don't know how much she made but I assume she was able to pay her bills.  (Saw her a few months later when she relocated to DC.)  I figure it's a living, but maybe you don't get to pick where you go?

One of my engineering coworkers in a different office took some time off. Her husband was in the hotel industry, and he got a job and relocated to St Barts or St Maarten.  So she got a job at the hotel, just working. They LOVED her because of her work ethic (there is such a thing as island time).  She worked there for a couple of years.

My husband's roomie in college was a "hotelie" (hotel school graduate).  It's a thing.

TN_Steve

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2015, 03:13:56 PM »
...

My husband's roomie in college was a "hotelie" (hotel school graduate).  It's a thing.

There are Hotel School Grads and then there are hotel school grads.  I suspect a Cornell hospitality/hotel degree may be worth taking out some loans.  An associates' degree from your friendly neighborhood community college, maybe not so much.  (And, perversely, the amount of debt per year for a student from a typical working class family is likely going to be less at Cornell--assuming s/he is accepted.)

FatCat

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2015, 03:47:10 PM »
They made a bad decision at a point in their lives that they didn't fully understand what their future selves were going to have to endure as a consequence. I feel bad for them in this respect. However I had the same decision to make at the same point in my life and I didn't choose to go the route they chose because I was afraid of encumbering my future self with debt.

I do remember feeling angry about the student loans because I felt that the people taking out the super high loans to pay for college were driving up the price of college. Whether or not that was true, it was how I felt. If loans weren't so easily available, it seems like colleges wouldn't be able to keep increasing the tuition at the rate that they do.

crispy

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2015, 03:54:16 PM »
I think I do sometimes have some degree of empathy for these whining people, if anything, because of how powerful the brainwashing of society can be to get an education at all costs and then get on the property ladder, pop out a couple of kids (despite the 6-figure debt) and give the newly created princes and princesses all of the experiences and fulfill all of their desires. I too was a product of that belief and, together with clueless parents, got a useless degree and racked up the huge sum of $15,000 student loans (hey, in the 90's, that WAS big money!). My husband came from the same type of background. Neither of us had any exposure to the MMM way and so, for a long time, lived like your average struggling citizen. However, we never popped out any offspring.

Now, in our late 30's and after working dead end jobs for meager pay have we been fortunate enough to"see the light" as it were. Someone touched on it and that's truck driving! Yes, two college grads have turned to trucking to achieve FI.

I've since had a real desire to introduce people who are struggling with student debt into the idea of trucking. In 2 years, a 2- person company team can earn enough to save about $120,000 (AND still have enough to live on). It's not easy though because this path is definitely seen as something"I could never do!" To add to my frustration, a lot of educated or aspirational people have this snobbery about trucking, almost as if one needs to sell his/her soul to the devil to become a trucker! Even though we're paid many many times better than your average cruise worker and even though our living conditions are unbelievably better, still, a cruise worker's job is judged as exciting and glamourous while ours is dirty and depressing.

I suppose that complaining on forums is very easy, asks nothing from the person and can provide relief for a second or two, but giving up one's home, training to drive a truck, staying out for weeks on end and living in a moving box actually requires effort and sacrifice.

I guess in the end, the old adage "You can lead a horse to water..." applies.

I love this post!  I have worked in career counseling for the government and non-profits, and I definitely tell people to consider a career in trucking.  While it's not for everyone, it is a great career choice and their is a lot of money to be made.  I know a couple who drove together after their children grew up.  They were paid to see the country together as opposed to spending thousands buying an RV and traveling.  I have always thought that was brilliant and quite Mustachian.

Sofa King

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2015, 05:18:46 PM »
With this problem being talked about ALOT now FOR YEARS all over the internet and in the media how much longer will people keep using the ignorance excuse of "I was young I didn't know any better?  (even tho there seems to be just as many adults taking out loans who should know better). What will they say when still year after year these IDIOTS keeps taking HUGE loans out for degrees for jobs that pay shit even if they can find a job for what they went to school for.  What will they say then?  When will the "ignorance excuse" end?  Cause people are still lining up in droves to take out these loans every day by the millions.

pbkmaine

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2015, 06:16:41 PM »

...

My husband's roomie in college was a "hotelie" (hotel school graduate).  It's a thing.

There are Hotel School Grads and then there are hotel school grads.  I suspect a Cornell hospitality/hotel degree may be worth taking out some loans.  An associates' degree from your friendly neighborhood community college, maybe not so much.  (And, perversely, the amount of debt per year for a student from a typical working class family is likely going to be less at Cornell--assuming s/he is accepted.)

+1  My classmates at Cornell who were in the Hotel School had no problem finding jobs, and not just in the hospitality industry. If you qualify for financial aid, the Ivies have deep pockets.

MsPeacock

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2015, 06:58:22 PM »
I worked in the student loan office at a private university (in other words, expensive) while I was in graduate school. On a daily basis I spoke w/ people who did not understand *at all* that they were applying for a loan, that they would have to pay in back, that they would have to pay it back even if they didn't graduate, that there was interest on the loan, etc. Many of these people were in their 30s and 40s - not just 18 year olds. Financial illiteracy is a very common problem. This was back in the 90s.

Now - well, I work in a field that requires a doctorate, and an internship from an accredited internship program prior to graduation- and the accredited internships will not take students from unaccredited programs. And you can't get a license to practice in my field w/o a degree from an accredited program and an accredited internship. Yet, there has been a proliferation of "professional schools" in the past 10 years or so that are unaccredited, provide no assistance with finding an internship, provide no viable clinical training prior to internship, and are extremely expensive (e.g. 70K+ per year). Generally, these schools have low thresholds for admission and happily produce students w/ no degrees (because they can't get an internship) and 200k+ in student loan debt. Are the students responsible for making poor choices in taking the loans and not doing adequate research about their field? Absolutely? Are the schools responsible for highly deceptive practices about the training they offer, the possibility of future employment in the field (about zero), and churning out people who will be financially unable to repay because they have no viable job prospects  - yep. Absolutely. And it is much easier to get information about these schools and what they claim to offer than it is to get information about the realities of the field. And the government's willingness to allow these schools to continue to operate the way they have is a massive problem. (There is also a problem w/ "online only" universities that offer undergrad programs to military folks- rake in money and offer very sub par education).

pbiddy35

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2015, 07:03:24 PM »
I know I'll always rue my college decisions that left me with one foot in the mud at college graduation. Part of the problem could have been parents Who took loans to get through college but they were for 3k which does not balance out with the insane costs associated with higher education today.    There should be more reasonable limits to how much and for which degrees loans can be taken. Schools will never stop pushing the high prices for impractical degrees until students stop paying it (by figuring out the scam or simple regulation on borrower limits. At 18 with no job i couldnt get an unsecured loan for 60k, but say its an education investment and i can get that for 4 years even for basketweaving. It shouldnt be so easy to get a negative net worth.

justjenn

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2015, 07:54:12 PM »
I think most people really donʻt understand loans and debt. I know I didnʻt when I was signing for my student loans. I honestly didnʻt think that 7% was a high interest rate. I had no other financial experience to compare it to, and I definitely didnʻt understand compound interest.
I just thank god that I didnʻt listen to my dadʻs advice. I got into an expensive graduate program that cost 100k for four years. I told him I wasnʻt going because I didnʻt want to incur that much debt. His response was that I was young enough that I would have decades to pay off the debt so donʻt worry about it. Um... isnʻt the point to avoid spending decades paying off a debt???

hello867

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Re: HARD TO FEEL SORRY FOR THESE PEOPLE....
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2015, 07:58:30 PM »
Ok I have to jump in here because I have a hospitality degree. Yes many entry level jobs are lowing paying when you start but where you go from there is how good you are at not only your current job but your skills in networking and challenging yourself to take on new harder roles. Very much like other fields. At 32 i made over 200k last year. Now I know I am more of an exceptional story than an average one but there are executives in every industry including hospitality. I would advise any one who is considering hospitality degree to switch to a business degree as they are more flexible to find good jobs in other industries if you don't move up fast enough in hospitality.


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