Financed to the MAX

[JAYSLOL]

I found a YouTube channel today where the guy does a “financial audit” of other people on camera, basically a one on one Case Study interview.  I’ve watched a few in horror because they are mostly financial train wrecks that put this sub forum to shame.  This one in particular of the ones I’ve watched was physically painful to listen to.  His family’s life is financed to the absolute max with every kind of debt you can imagine from credit card to store credit to >$1000/m car loans for two brand new cars (for the safety and the warranty!) to 4 financed iPads (cause it was Christmas and that’s what everyone wanted) to wife’s student loan debt that he had no idea how much it was cause they just don’t talk about it.  All on sub $100k take home pay. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iIQn8RXZF2A&lc=UgwUN0TQwP9WzXZ2TCF4AaABAg.9eRcdYIU-pA9eSKh-Lg6Cl&feature=em-comments

[ScreamingHeadGuy]

Painful.  Past-him really is kicking now-him in the nuts.

[Dave1442397]

That's pretty bad. He also just refinanced both cars. They're both crap cars to begin with. I'd dump both of them and get a couple of used Toyotas or Hondas.

[YK-Phil]

That was brutal, but kudos to the guy for taking these face punches with grace. I'd love to see where the family is in a year's time.

[sonofsven]

Check out "Til Debt Do Us Part" (also on YT) if you like to wallow in the misery of others poor financial decisions...
The show's focus is on debt and how it negatively affects relationships.

[iris lily]

Check out "Til Debt Do Us Part" (also on YT) if you like to wallow in the misery of others poor financial decisions...
The show's focus is on debt and how it negatively affects relationships.

I just watched the episode where the 50 Something grandparents were raising their granddaughter and the grandmother was entirely resistant ro the changes she pledged she would undertake. Grandpa argued with the financial guru’s  numbers and reworked them, leaving out all interest payments.

Neither of them faced reality and both wanted a magic bullet. I’m sure they went bankrupt.

I like it when, in every episode, the financial guru lady tells them how much they will owe in five years. It’s always some version  that can be expressed in “million.” That gets their attention.

[JAYSLOL]

That was brutal, but kudos to the guy for taking these face punches with grace. I'd love to see where the family is in a year's time.

Me too, I hope they do updates on some of these people.  He should be face-punched way harder than he was IMO.  If I were him, both cars would be gone, the rental apartment would be gone, ipads gone, MIL would have 30 days to either get her crap out of the storage unit or it’s going to auction or she can keep it but she’s got to start watching the kids full time while wife gets a job and pays her whatever amount of debt off and covers MILs storage bill. 

[RetiredAt63]

Check out "Til Debt Do Us Part" (also on YT) if you like to wallow in the misery of others poor financial decisions...
The show's focus is on debt and how it negatively affects relationships.

I just watched the episode where the 50 Something grandparents were raising their granddaughter and the grandmother was entirely resistant ro the changes she pledged she would undertake. Grandpa argued with the financial guru’s  numbers and reworked them, leaving out all interest payments.

Neither of them faced reality and both wanted a magic bullet. I’m sure they went bankrupt.

I like it when, in every episode, the financial guru lady tells them how much they will owe in five years. It’s always some version  that can be expressed in “million.” That gets their attention.

My worst was the couple where she was frantic about the debt and he refused to face the facts, he was doing it all "for the kids".  I hope they ended up divorced, his disrespect to his wife was horrible. 

Gail always told it like it was.

[lifeisshort123]

These videos remind me of the old Suze Orman Show on CNBC back in the day.  So many people don’t understand how their ego and greed are holding them back.  All of these “luxury products” are frankly just major boondoggles.  There is nothing “exclusive” about them.  I appreciated Gail’s term “consumeritis”.

The thing that saddened me so much about the first video, was that this guy seemed intelligent, seemed smart, and yet, it was clear, he was not going to take most of the advice from the financial analyst.

[solon]

I do some financial coaching on the side. I would say 95% of the people I talk to are in trouble with their car. It cost too much, they financed it, cheaper options are available for cash, etc. But every single one of them is also defensive about it. "I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

It's sad but predictable, and I'm powerless to change their minds.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

I do some financial coaching on the side. I would say 95% of the people I talk to are in trouble with their car. It cost too much, they financed it, cheaper options are available for cash, etc. But every single one of them is also defensive about it. "I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

It's sad but predictable, and I'm powerless to change their minds.

People cling desperately to their rationalizations because they believe it absolves them of responsibility for the consequences of their choices.

[Adventine]

These videos remind me of the old Suze Orman Show on CNBC back in the day.  So many people don’t understand how their ego and greed are holding them back.  All of these “luxury products” are frankly just major boondoggles.  There is nothing “exclusive” about them.  I appreciated Gail’s term “consumeritis”.

The thing that saddened me so much about the first video, was that this guy seemed intelligent, seemed smart, and yet, it was clear, he was not going to take most of the advice from the financial analyst.

That was probably the exact thing blocking him - he thought he was so smart, he could do better than the analyst.

[JAYSLOL]

I do some financial coaching on the side. I would say 95% of the people I talk to are in trouble with their car. It cost too much, they financed it, cheaper options are available for cash, etc. But every single one of them is also defensive about it. "I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

It's sad but predictable, and I'm powerless to change their minds.

People cling desperately to their rationalizations because they believe it absolves them of responsibility for the consequences of their choices.

Exactly, if they “had no choice”, then they aren’t responsible for the consequences of doing whatever they “had no choice” but to do.  “I HAD to buy a brand new car because the 2 year old models cost almost the same!”  Yeah? What about the 10 year old models?  “Impossible! Because safety and warranty etc”

[lifeisshort123]

I have no problem with people buying a new car if they can afford it.  I’ll even depart from Dave Ramsey and say, I don’t care if you make payments on it necessarily.

What I do have an issue with, is people who earn right around 100k household income (90-150k) thinking that this “large income” entitles them to a never ending supply of Gucci bags, luxury automobiles, exotic vacations, etc. because “they work hard and deserve it”.  It is a real thing.  America’s Money Matriarch, Suze Orman, herself acknowledges that she fell into that trap when she started earning “real money” for the first time.

It is hard to know what is staged, and what isn’t.  But, what is made clear to me from these videos is that change is hard - that people feel their hard work “entitles” them to something, and that they feel the need to live beyond their means.  Also, I felt the guy in the video really did have it tough - yes, the salary sounds good - but he was supporting 4 kids, plus a stay at home wife, and her mother.  He was living at less than 250% FPL.  It’s not like he was living a life of luxury on that income.

Also, of all the credit cards… the ONE you pick is the Amex Platinum???? I found that so confusing for so many reasons.  Horrible points earning ratio and EXTREMELY high annual fee.  To me, it said a lot about his psychology on the situation.  Perhaps the fee was waived due to his military service, but even still, it is not a great card for him unless he is traveling a lot for work.  Leisure trips should not be happening with that debt load.

[Metalcat]

I do some financial coaching on the side. I would say 95% of the people I talk to are in trouble with their car. It cost too much, they financed it, cheaper options are available for cash, etc. But every single one of them is also defensive about it. "I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

It's sad but predictable, and I'm powerless to change their minds.

People cling desperately to their rationalizations because they believe it absolves them of responsibility for the consequences of their choices.

People cling desperately to their rationalizations. Period. Everyone does.

I've said it many times, humans are not rational beings, we're rationalizing beings.

We do what we feel like doing and then rationalize it with what feels like a rock solid explanation. Almost nobody makes decisions based on the reasoning they think they did. Ask anyone why they made a decision and the explanation will be almost entirely ad-hoc, and they won't even realize it.

Changing people's behaviour means finding a way to motivate them underneath their rationalizations.

People don't buy this shit because they feel entitled, they buy this shit because they feel like they will be evaluated as inferior if they don't.

You can't argue with someone's rationalization head-on and expect to logic them out of it. You have to get underneath the rationalization, validate the emotions driving it, and then offer a superior alternative.

This is why shows like DR's can be so effective, because the public flogging these people receive puts their spending in a more shameful light than failing to keep up with the Joneses would.

It's not because DR's advice is so helpful and rational, it's because the format of the humiliation gets underneath the rationalization and speaks directly to the underlying motivation of fear of judgement. Sometimes this works, sometimes it just drives the rationalizing deeper.

There are less toxic ways to do this, thankfully.

People are nowhere as stupid as we like to think they are. What most people are is affected deeply by a toxic society that has driven them to internalize deeply toxic values and motivations.

I've had enough deep, intense, vulnerable conversations with highly successful, very financially responsible, tremendously conscientious members of this very forum to know that they can be just as fucked up by different but equally toxic motivations and struggles with self-worth. I've heard some rationalizations that have broken my heart.

Toxic rationalization is not exclusive to the realm of people whose decisions we think are dumb.

I'm perfectly happy to viciously mock and shame the social constructs that promote this kind of behaviour. It's fucking crazy what people feel driven to do to themselves when motivated by a lack of autonomous self-worth.

[Sanitary Stache]

I am now wondering what my own toxic rationalizations are.

[ATtiny85]

I do some financial coaching on the side. I would say 95% of the people I talk to are in trouble with their car. It cost too much, they financed it, cheaper options are available for cash, etc. But every single one of them is also defensive about it. "I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

It's sad but predictable, and I'm powerless to change their minds.

I read a lot on BH and it is always within maybe ten posts of someone asking about a simple repair on a fifteen year old car that someone posts about safety. “Go buy a $50k new one, you NEED the safety features.” Whatever. Total BS.

[getsorted]

"I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

Cars are complicated machines and people are scared of things going wrong that they won't understand. I think the fear of having to talk to a mechanic is a huge obstacle (we are culturally rich in "mechanic ripoff" stories), and fear of breakdowns is another.

I didn't learn about cars at home, but in high school, I read a book by the "Car Talk" guys that explained the basics of how cars work and also walked the reader through a lot of repair-or-replace decisions. One thing the book said that always stuck with me is that repair costs don't exponentially increase over the life of the car-- they eventually level off. The other thing that stuck with me is that you have to be aware that many of the parts of your car are like shoes-- designed to wear out and be replaced. When you have a mindset that some things absolutely will eventually need to be replaced, needing to take the car to the mechanic begins to feel like a normal chore, like doing the laundry. But if you don't have that mindset, repairs seem like disasters, and evidence that the car is a lemon, and not worth fixing. I see this all the time-- people will say, "well, the whole brake system needed replacing, so I just decided not to make the repair."

The fear of breakdowns is another thing. I have had some sketchy encounters while broken down on the side of the road (in the pre-cell-phone age). I can see why some people wouldn't want to risk that, but that can happen even with newer vehicles.

[JAYSLOL]

"I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

Cars are complicated machines and people are scared of things going wrong that they won't understand. I think the fear of having to talk to a mechanic is a huge obstacle (we are culturally rich in "mechanic ripoff" stories), and fear of breakdowns is another.

I didn't learn about cars at home, but in high school, I read a book by the "Car Talk" guys that explained the basics of how cars work and also walked the reader through a lot of repair-or-replace decisions. One thing the book said that always stuck with me is that repair costs don't exponentially increase over the life of the car-- they eventually level off. The other thing that stuck with me is that you have to be aware that many of the parts of your car are like shoes-- designed to wear out and be replaced. When you have a mindset that some things absolutely will eventually need to be replaced, needing to take the car to the mechanic begins to feel like a normal chore, like doing the laundry. But if you don't have that mindset, repairs seem like disasters, and evidence that the car is a lemon, and not worth fixing. I see this all the time-- people will say, "well, the whole brake system needed replacing, so I just decided not to make the repair."

The fear of breakdowns is another thing. I have had some sketchy encounters while broken down on the side of the road (in the pre-cell-phone age). I can see why some people wouldn't want to risk that, but that can happen even with newer vehicles.

It’s so true about repair costs levelling out at a certain point.  The brake pads, tires, shocks, clutch, fuel pump etc all wear out at roughly the same rate on a 2022 Honda Civic as a 2002 Honda Civic.  With the 2022, your paying a premium up front to have everything start at brand new.

[Metalcat]

I am now wondering what my own toxic rationalizations are.

Do you get enough sleep?
Do you get enough exercise?
Do you eat predominantly healthy food?
Is your home clean?
Do you spend enough quality time with loved ones?
Are you pleased with your life at this very moment?
Do you like yourself?

If the answer to all of the above is a resounding "yes" then don't worry too much about toxic rationalizations.

If any of the answers are "no," then yeah...you've likely got some self-destructive shit going on somewhere in your head.

[eyesonthehorizon]

...People are nowhere as stupid as we like to think they are. What most people are is affected deeply by a toxic society that has driven them to internalize deeply toxic values and motivations.

I've had enough deep, intense, vulnerable conversations with highly successful, very financially responsible, tremendously conscientious members of this very forum to know that they can be just as fucked up by different but equally toxic motivations and struggles with self-worth. I've heard some rationalizations that have broken my heart.

Toxic rationalization is not exclusive to the realm of people whose decisions we think are dumb.

I'm perfectly happy to viciously mock and shame the social constructs that promote this kind of behaviour. It's fucking crazy what people feel driven to do to themselves when motivated by a lack of autonomous self-worth.

I spend a lot of time trying to convey the sentiment you pinned handily in that first paragraph. Now just to extricate myself from implication in the second.

[jinga nation]

I do some financial coaching on the side. I would say 95% of the people I talk to are in trouble with their car. It cost too much, they financed it, cheaper options are available for cash, etc. But every single one of them is also defensive about it. "I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

It's sad but predictable, and I'm powerless to change their minds.

I read a lot on BH and it is always within maybe ten posts of someone asking about a simple repair on a fifteen year old car that someone posts about safety. “Go buy a $50k new one, you NEED the safety features.” Whatever. Total BS.

I don't read BH's non-financial sub-forums/posts/threads anymore. Can't facepunch around there. Once made the mistake of saying the f-word, in lowercase. Got warned. Sheesh, the policing there is off the charts. And the Rolex thread is hilariously facepunchable, twats justifying their consumeritis.

[Metalcat]

I do some financial coaching on the side. I would say 95% of the people I talk to are in trouble with their car. It cost too much, they financed it, cheaper options are available for cash, etc. But every single one of them is also defensive about it. "I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

It's sad but predictable, and I'm powerless to change their minds.

I read a lot on BH and it is always within maybe ten posts of someone asking about a simple repair on a fifteen year old car that someone posts about safety. “Go buy a $50k new one, you NEED the safety features.” Whatever. Total BS.

I don't read BH's non-financial sub-forums/posts/threads anymore. Can't facepunch around there. Once made the mistake of saying the f-word, in lowercase. Got warned. Sheesh, the policing there is off the charts. And the Rolex thread is hilariously facepunchable, twats justifying their consumeritis.

I can't deal with the blatant, crushing sexism there, and the hostility.

I joined briefly when I was engaged in a business deal that would have made me uncomfortably wealthy had I not tanked it, and I was always left wondering "why are these people so angry?"

[Sanitary Stache]

I am now wondering what my own toxic rationalizations are.

Do you get enough sleep?
Do you get enough exercise?
Do you eat predominantly healthy food?
Is your home clean?
Do you spend enough quality time with loved ones?
Are you pleased with your life at this very moment?
Do you like yourself?

If the answer to all of the above is a resounding "yes" then don't worry too much about toxic rationalizations.

If any of the answers are "no," then yeah...you've likely got some self-destructive shit going on somewhere in your head.

I suppose those are all meant to be subjective questions.  I can convince myself the answer is "mostly yes" by adjusting what I think "enough" is.  I wouldn't say a resounding yes though. 

[getsorted]

If any of the answers are "no," then yeah...you've likely got some self-destructive shit going on somewhere in your head.

Or... maybe... you're human and keeping 100% of the plates spinning at all times is an unreasonable expectation?

[Metalcat]

If any of the answers are "no," then yeah...you've likely got some self-destructive shit going on somewhere in your head.

Or... maybe... you're human and keeping 100% of the plates spinning at all times is an unreasonable expectation?

Yeah, and a big part of being human is being profoundly affected by the toxic messages in ones environment, no?

The question was whether someone should engage in some self-reflection as to how toxic beliefs may be affecting them. The answer is almost always "uh, yeah, you probably should."

[ATtiny85]

I can't deal with the blatant, crushing sexism there, and the hostility.

I joined briefly when I was engaged in a business deal that would have made me uncomfortably wealthy had I not tanked it, and I was always left wondering "why are these people so angry?"

All in the eyes of the beholder. I find this community more vicious, and equally sexist in some ways. I do like the non-biased moderation there. But I much more like the “roll up your sleeves and lets do the work” attitude that’s here. YMMV.

There are some wicked smart and helpful people there and here, and each location has its place. Don’t ask here about a clown car and don’t ask there about eating dirt to avoid SORR.

[Dicey]

I don't wanna click on the link, because stories like that make me sad. Is that where the answer to the "Who (or what) is BH" question is?

[Malossi792]

I don't wanna click on the link, because stories like that make me sad. Is that where the answer to the "Who (or what) is BH" question is?

Think that's BogleHeads.

[Dicey]

I don't wanna click on the link, because stories like that make me sad. Is that where the answer to the "Who (or what) is BH" question is?

Think that's BogleHeads.

[Insert palm smacking forehead sound here.] Seriously, I googled "BH blog" and "BH forum" and came up empty handed. Matches my apparently empty brain, I suppose.

[iris lily]

"I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

Cars are complicated machines and people are scared of things going wrong that they won't understand. I think the fear of having to talk to a mechanic is a huge obstacle (we are culturally rich in "mechanic ripoff" stories), and fear of breakdowns is another.

I didn't learn about cars at home, but in high school, I read a book by the "Car Talk" guys that explained the basics of how cars work and also walked the reader through a lot of repair-or-replace decisions. One thing the book said that always stuck with me is that repair costs don't exponentially increase over the life of the car-- they eventually level off. The other thing that stuck with me is that you have to be aware that many of the parts of your car are like shoes-- designed to wear out and be replaced. When you have a mindset that some things absolutely will eventually need to be replaced, needing to take the car to the mechanic begins to feel like a normal chore, like doing the laundry. But if you don't have that mindset, repairs seem like disasters, and evidence that the car is a lemon, and not worth fixing. I see this all the time-- people will say, "well, the whole brake system needed replacing, so I just decided not to make the repair."

The fear of breakdowns is another thing. I have had some sketchy encounters while broken down on the side of the road (in the pre-cell-phone age). I can see why some people wouldn't want to risk that, but that can happen even with newer vehicles.

Universally, women hate the car that left them stranded by the side of the road.

For my incident, I wanted that car to die a painful death.

[eyesonthehorizon]

I actually loved the car that died on the highway leaving me semi-stranded - I say “semi” because cell phones were prevalent, it was rush hour under a high summer sun, I wasn’t stranded like I would have been in a different era. Being in an extremely different financial place now, I always wonder if I’ll see it again, but the desire for cleaner transit - I intend to be on my last fossil fuels car - would probably save me. Probably.

[RainyDay]

Universally, women hate the car that left them stranded by the side of the road.

For my incident, I wanted that car to die a painful death.

lol so true!  We had a Chevrolet Chevette when I was a just-learning-to-drive teenager (in the late 80s), and that damn thing stranded me many times.  In the middle of nowhere NH, before cell phones, usually in mid-winter.  I have extrapolated my hatred to Chevrolet in general!

[oneday]

"I need the safety, I need the reliability, we have kids, etc" No amount of logic can penetrate that barrier. Most of them will keep the crippling cars. Eventually the cars will either be repossessed, or the people will fail to reach their other goals. And we're talking about people with good incomes, not people struggling to find income.

Cars are complicated machines and people are scared of things going wrong that they won't understand. I think the fear of having to talk to a mechanic is a huge obstacle (we are culturally rich in "mechanic ripoff" stories), and fear of breakdowns is another.

I didn't learn about cars at home, but in high school, I read a book by the "Car Talk" guys that explained the basics of how cars work and also walked the reader through a lot of repair-or-replace decisions. One thing the book said that always stuck with me is that repair costs don't exponentially increase over the life of the car-- they eventually level off. The other thing that stuck with me is that you have to be aware that many of the parts of your car are like shoes-- designed to wear out and be replaced. When you have a mindset that some things absolutely will eventually need to be replaced, needing to take the car to the mechanic begins to feel like a normal chore, like doing the laundry. But if you don't have that mindset, repairs seem like disasters, and evidence that the car is a lemon, and not worth fixing. I see this all the time-- people will say, "well, the whole brake system needed replacing, so I just decided not to make the repair."

The fear of breakdowns is another thing. I have had some sketchy encounters while broken down on the side of the road (in the pre-cell-phone age). I can see why some people wouldn't want to risk that, but that can happen even with newer vehicles.

Universally, women hate the car that left them stranded by the side of the road.

For my incident, I wanted that car to die a painful death.

Not so universal. I still have a soft spot for The Truck, which had a tire blow out, after dark, on a high speed highway with nearly no shoulder, a steep drop off the side of the road, in an unfamiliar rural location (no street lights, no ambient light, no exits in sight). Oh, and this was pre-cell phone days. What scared me was the possibility of the emergency flashers running down the battery and then being at greater risk of being rear-ended (which would have been a concern in *any* car), and the pair of local men who stopped and offered me assistance, if I would just get out of The Truck and ride with them to "safety".


I also gotta agree with PP who said that people generally don't understand that quite a lot of work on cars is  not a repair but expected, routine maintenance. Often I've heard "needs new tires" or "brake job" etc. included in the list of reasons a car is no longer suitable and needs to be replaced. When I point out that these things are expected to be replaced several times over the life of a vehicle, some people express genuine surprise. Anyway, hopefully it discourages then talking to me about their transportation woes in the future. I don't enjoy those sorts of conversations.

[oneday]

I actually loved the car that died on the highway leaving me semi-stranded - I say “semi” because cell phones were prevalent, it was rush hour under a high summer sun, I wasn’t stranded like I would have been in a different era. Being in an extremely different financial place now, I always wonder if I’ll see it again, but the desire for cleaner transit - I intend to be on my last fossil fuels car - would probably save me. Probably.

High five for car-love and also cleaner transit!

[getsorted]

), and the pair of local men who stopped and offered me assistance, if I would just get out of The Truck and ride with them to "safety".

That happened to me, too-- twice. Fortunately I listened to the hair on the back of my neck and stayed in my broken-down truck.

When I was a teen, my dad gave me his biggest wrench to keep in the truck. I asked him what for and he said, "Men."

I was glad I had the big wrench because that truck must have broken down on the side of the road half a dozen times.

[iluvzbeach]

I don't wanna click on the link, because stories like that make me sad. Is that where the answer to the "Who (or what) is BH" question is?

Think that's BogleHeads.

[Insert palm smacking forehead sound here.] Seriously, I googled "BH blog" and "BH forum" and came up empty handed. Matches my apparently empty brain, I suppose.

@Dicey You get a pass because of Covid. Covid brain.

[LiveLean]

When did people become such financial idiots when it comes to car math?

In 1991, having worked my ass off in college to get internships, I landed a first job after graduation for $40,000. Very good money in 1991. But not for a minute did I think, "Damn. I deserve to buy a badass car." Instead my dad gave me an ultimatum: Buy this family car you've been driving for (full Kelly Bluebook) $4,000 or get your own damn car. I bought the $4K car -- 1/10th of my annual income -- and drove it another four years. By then I could have paid cash for most anything, but I bought a Chevy Cavalier and drove it for eight years.

These days, many people with $40,000 jobs ($18,400 in 1991 dollars) will instead lease or finance $40,000 cars. WTF?

[RetiredAt63]

When did people become such financial idiots when it comes to car math?

In 1991, having worked my ass off in college to get internships, I landed a first job after graduation for $40,000. Very good money in 1991. But not for a minute did I think, "Damn. I deserve to buy a badass car." Instead my dad gave me an ultimatum: Buy this family car you've been driving for (full Kelly Bluebook) $4,000 or get your own damn car. I bought the $4K car -- 1/10th of my annual income -- and drove it another four years. By then I could have paid cash for most anything, but I bought a Chevy Cavalier and drove it for eight years.

These days, many people with $40,000 jobs ($18,400 in 1991 dollars) will instead lease or finance $40,000 cars. WTF?

I don't get it either.

My first car (well our first car) was a wedding gift - my FIL bought it and my BIL fixed it up.  Second car I bought from my Dad (note bought).  Several second-hand cars ensued before we bought our first new car.  We drove our cars until the mileage was super high and the trade-in value was non-existent.

Even when for various reasons we bought new, we got deals - we bought one car through a group and got an extra discount because I had just graduated from a university program.  I wasn't their target audience (mid-40s instead of early 20s) but I was eligible.    ;-)  Some years there just wasn't what we wanted/needed in the second hand car market.

[Metalcat]

When did people become such financial idiots when it comes to car math?

In 1991, having worked my ass off in college to get internships, I landed a first job after graduation for $40,000. Very good money in 1991. But not for a minute did I think, "Damn. I deserve to buy a badass car." Instead my dad gave me an ultimatum: Buy this family car you've been driving for (full Kelly Bluebook) $4,000 or get your own damn car. I bought the $4K car -- 1/10th of my annual income -- and drove it another four years. By then I could have paid cash for most anything, but I bought a Chevy Cavalier and drove it for eight years.

These days, many people with $40,000 jobs ($18,400 in 1991 dollars) will instead lease or finance $40,000 cars. WTF?

Many people literally don't grasp the real life impact of their financial decisions. They can only grasp biweekly cash flow, and if the payment can be made to fit, then it's a go.

Grasping money beyond that is not only a skill set they don't have, it's also a reality they don't want to face because that reality is pretty grim for most people.

To face that reality means facing the uncomfortable truth that few middle class folks can actually afford what they think a middle class lifestyle is. It's the same way that people on financial distress avoid looking at their mail or their online bank accounts.

Avoidance is an unbelievably common human behaviour.

These people aren't buying these cars fully aware that they are making stupid financial decisions and just spitting in the face of them, they're cognitively blocking the reality of their own actions and focusing on just their ability to make the payment.

We see this very obviously with people buying houses, the amounts are just so massive and overwhelming, few people can even fathom what that size of purchase really means, they can just grasp the monthly payment. They target whatever type of house feels "normal" to them and try and find one with a payment they can manage.

Well for a young person with a new income, buying a car is equally unfathomable in size. The can't grasp it. So they look at what they think is a "normal" car and see if they can swing the payments.

I just about shot soda water out of my nose the first time I found out what a new Honda Civic can cost, and yet they're bloody EVERYWHERE. Thankfully I have frugality and financial savvy in my blood, but I have a step brother who doesn't, and the first thing he did when he graduated and started working was to buy a "modest" SUV, which cost him 40K in the early 2000s. He just could not grasp the impact of spending his entire yearly income before taxes on a car.

Granted, he's not the brightest, but still.

[getsorted]

When did people become such financial idiots when it comes to car math?

In 1991, having worked my ass off in college to get internships, I landed a first job after graduation for $40,000. Very good money in 1991. But not for a minute did I think, "Damn. I deserve to buy a badass car." Instead my dad gave me an ultimatum: Buy this family car you've been driving for (full Kelly Bluebook) $4,000 or get your own damn car. I bought the $4K car -- 1/10th of my annual income -- and drove it another four years. By then I could have paid cash for most anything, but I bought a Chevy Cavalier and drove it for eight years.

These days, many people with $40,000 jobs ($18,400 in 1991 dollars) will instead lease or finance $40,000 cars. WTF?

I dated a guy who got a raise and immediately went out and spent the entire annual raise on a new truck (financed). He was a high earner, had an accounting degree, and worked in a logic-based profession, but his entire framework for finance was just affording monthly payments. It was weird dating someone making four times what I make but who was in constant financial tight spots because of his high spending. I guess you can right the ship quickly when you have a high income, but man, the way he lived would have made me a nervous wreck.

[RetiredAt63]

When did people become such financial idiots when it comes to car math?

In 1991, having worked my ass off in college to get internships, I landed a first job after graduation for $40,000. Very good money in 1991. But not for a minute did I think, "Damn. I deserve to buy a badass car." Instead my dad gave me an ultimatum: Buy this family car you've been driving for (full Kelly Bluebook) $4,000 or get your own damn car. I bought the $4K car -- 1/10th of my annual income -- and drove it another four years. By then I could have paid cash for most anything, but I bought a Chevy Cavalier and drove it for eight years.

These days, many people with $40,000 jobs ($18,400 in 1991 dollars) will instead lease or finance $40,000 cars. WTF?

I dated a guy who got a raise and immediately went out and spent the entire annual raise on a new truck (financed). He was a high earner, had an accounting degree, and worked in a logic-based profession, but his entire framework for finance was just affording monthly payments. It was weird dating someone making four times what I make but who was in constant financial tight spots because of his high spending. I guess you can right the ship quickly when you have a high income, but man, the way he lived would have made me a nervous wreck.

Society pushes this.  Car dealerships don't talk total price, they talk payments.  Budget articles look at monthly costs.  Ads push monthly payments, or weekly (makes it look even less expensive).  The whole finance industry (from my ancient perspective) has gone from too restrictive to incredibly in love with credit and low down payments and weekly/monthly payments.  And when the interest rate is buried in the monthly payment, people don't realize how much they are paying in interest unless they haul out a calculator.  Ignoring the cost of interest is nothing new, I saw it discussed in my personal finance books in the 70s and 80s.

People laugh about the latte factor, but if you spend $5 three times a week (coffee and a bagel at Tims, say) that is $15/week. Say 48 weeks a year, and that is $720.  Add in an expensive cable package, getting takeout once a week, and a few other indulgences that individually don't seem that expensive, and it really adds up.  I remember decades ago my then-husband and I had spent a week at a Club Med (in winter, peak season).  Friends of ours (same income bracket, same general expenses) were moaning about how they could never afford a week at Club Med.  We looked at them, both with cigarettes in their hands, and asked them how much they spent on cigarettes in a year.  They spent about the same on cigarettes as we had spent on the vacation.

So sometimes the budget killers are the big things.  But sometimes it is all the little things together - eaten by a shark versus nibble to death by piranhas.  And of course if the same person has high spending on both, they are truly in deep trouble.

[Cassie]

I used to watch Till debt do us Part but didn’t think they were making them anymore. New cars are truly ridiculous in price. 40 years ago I broke down in winter when I was 8 months pregnant in a really bad neighborhood. I had to go through it to get from work to the freeway home. Luckily police stopped and gave me a ride home even though it was against the rules. They said if I hadn’t been pregnant they would have left me.

[SunnyDays]

I'm waiting for the dealerships to come out with daily rates.  Only $20 a day?  What a bargain - I spend more on gas! (Sarcasm)

I remember the Till Debt Do Us Part show with the fancy-pants woman who desperately wanted a BMW, to the point she would go into the showrooms and literally hug them.  ("I know you want me as much as I want you!"  LOL.)  When Gail tried to show her what her budget was and that she would need to come up with another $700/month to afford it, she just didn't believe it.  Her marriage was on the brink of divorce due to her spending, so Gail made her do up a budget for her own apartment and day care for the kids.  She couldn't do it, but insisted she would qualify for subsidized day care.  Not.  She also couldn't stick out one overnight in an apartment to get a taste of what her new life would be like because she didn't want to have to share an elevator with others or smell their cooking.  How do people live so far from reality and who are the people who marry them?

@Cassie, the show isn't made anymore, sadly.  There was a follow up series called Money Morons if memory serves.

[Adventine]

@SunnyDays apparently car subscriptions are already happening: A California Startup Is Selling Electric Vehicle ‘Subscriptions’ ... but for a lot more than $20/month:

And while Autonomy’s offering sure looks like a lease — costs include a $5,900 “start fee,” then $490 to $690 a month for up to 1,000 miles of driving — customers can end the subscription any time after three months, and don’t have to pay maintenance, registration fees or interest.

[RetiredAt63]

I'm waiting for the dealerships to come out with daily rates.  Only $20 a day?  What a bargain - I spend more on gas! (Sarcasm)

I remember the Till Debt Do Us Part show with the fancy-pants woman who desperately wanted a BMW, to the point she would go into the showrooms and literally hug them.  ("I know you want me as much as I want you!"  LOL.)  When Gail tried to show her what her budget was and that she would need to come up with another $700/month to afford it, she just didn't believe it.  Her marriage was on the brink of divorce due to her spending, so Gail made her do up a budget for her own apartment and day care for the kids.  She couldn't do it, but insisted she would qualify for subsidized day care.  Not.  She also couldn't stick out one overnight in an apartment to get a taste of what her new life would be like because she didn't want to have to share an elevator with others or smell their cooking.  How do people live so far from reality and who are the people who marry them?

@Cassie, the show isn't made anymore, sadly.  There was a follow up series called Money Morons if memory serves.

Gail made a show for a while called, iirc, Princess.  There were some Princes on it as well, but mostly it was young women whose parents had massively indulged them and they had no idea of the realities of life.  I remember at the time wishing she had done it more balanced re gender, because I have known a lot of men who were just as entitled re spending money they didn't have.  Lots of them were on Til Debt Do Us Part.

[Ladychips]

Til Debt Do Us Part is on Amazon prime!!

[GuyinTexas]

I'm waiting for the dealerships to come out with daily rates.  Only $20 a day?  What a bargain - I spend more on gas! (Sarcasm)

I remember the Till Debt Do Us Part show with the fancy-pants woman who desperately wanted a BMW, to the point she would go into the showrooms and literally hug them.  ("I know you want me as much as I want you!"  LOL.)  When Gail tried to show her what her budget was and that she would need to come up with another $700/month to afford it, she just didn't believe it.  Her marriage was on the brink of divorce due to her spending, so Gail made her do up a budget for her own apartment and day care for the kids.  She couldn't do it, but insisted she would qualify for subsidized day care.  Not.  She also couldn't stick out one overnight in an apartment to get a taste of what her new life would be like because she didn't want to have to share an elevator with others or smell their cooking.  How do people live so far from reality and who are the people who marry them?

@Cassie, the show isn't made anymore, sadly.  There was a follow up series called Money Morons if memory serves.

Gail made a show for a while called, iirc, Princess.  There were some Princes on it as well, but mostly it was young women whose parents had massively indulged them and they had no idea of the realities of life.  I remember at the time wishing she had done it more balanced re gender, because I have known a lot of men who were just as entitled re spending money they didn't have.  Lots of them were on Til Debt Do Us Part.

Here's a link to all the Prince$$ episodes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dX8Jy4Fvaw&list=PL3cCEW-EiTrbos9dQeoF-iIMhRhaxRwjX

[partgypsy]

If any of the answers are "no," then yeah...you've likely got some self-destructive shit going on somewhere in your head.

Or... maybe... you're human and keeping 100% of the plates spinning at all times is an unreasonable expectation?

Yeah, and a big part of being human is being profoundly affected by the toxic messages in ones environment, no?

The question was whether someone should engage in some self-reflection as to how toxic beliefs may be affecting them. The answer is almost always "uh, yeah, you probably should."

to be a devil's advocate, shit happens. For example right now I'm a little sleep deprived plus my house is not in ideal shape bc I have a self imposed deadline..basically I have a different priority. It's just something I accept. My priorities shift so for example if I'm having people over I will make sure the house is clean (shrugs). I guess if it's a chronic issue that you want to change and can't, different story.

[getsorted]

If any of the answers are "no," then yeah...you've likely got some self-destructive shit going on somewhere in your head.

Or... maybe... you're human and keeping 100% of the plates spinning at all times is an unreasonable expectation?

Yeah, and a big part of being human is being profoundly affected by the toxic messages in ones environment, no?

The question was whether someone should engage in some self-reflection as to how toxic beliefs may be affecting them. The answer is almost always "uh, yeah, you probably should."

to be a devil's advocate, shit happens. For example right now I'm a little sleep deprived plus my house is not in ideal shape bc I have a self imposed deadline..basically I have a different priority. It's just something I accept. My priorities shift so for example if I'm having people over I will make sure the house is clean (shrugs). I guess if it's a chronic issue that you want to change and can't, different story.

I mean, I'm with you. These are normal trade-offs, and life throws Big Curveballs. The life I planned for and the life I am living now are two totally different lives. My house isn't typically clean because I have made a choice to put it at the bottom of the priority list and deal with more pressing needs. There are many pieces of scaffolding to put in place before I get to that one, and it just takes time to rebuild.