Author Topic: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?  (Read 17324 times)

OurTown

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #150 on: June 12, 2018, 01:59:14 PM »
I really don't mind subsidizing these little extra expenses for my lovely wife, like getting her hair color redone or whatnot.  Some benefits are intangible.

SwordGuy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #151 on: June 12, 2018, 02:16:53 PM »
I actually do find that pretending to have a modicum of interest in sportsball and other cultural phenomena tremendously helpful career wise. I'm not great at pretending, but it helps when I do.

Absolutely!

I used to work for a Dutch firm and was in Rotterdam on business when the Americans went to the World Cup for the first time.  (That's a soccer game - the one with the black and white round ball where they kick it around.  I add that for folks who are even more happily ignorant about ball games than I am. )

We were sitting in the hotel bar with some of the local employees after work.  In the background was a soccer game going on. I made a comment that I liked soccer better than American football, baseball or basketball.  ( Wasn't that tactful?  What I actually thought was it was marginally less boring.)

Suddenly, I was "one of the club".   I was their buddy.   They went out and bought me a Netherlands team hat, something to wave in my hand, and some orange face coloring (that being the national color there).   It was actually rather creepy.

And it was a very real object lesson in the cost and benefit of being oneself vs. going with the crowd.

I'm happy with my choice and the price I paid for it.  Shame I had to pay the price, but it was worth it to me.



Antonn Park

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #152 on: June 12, 2018, 03:57:35 PM »
I can see how women spend more than med on their appearance, especially if they feel pressured by society to look a certain way. I must confess I spend the most money on skincare because it's important to me, but I can't remember the last time I bought a new pair of shoes or an outfit. Especially now that I work at home, I don't care what I wear.

TartanTallulah

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #153 on: June 12, 2018, 06:38:38 PM »
For what it's worth, it seems to me like as women, we can also just skip all that stuff. I've worked in offices for years, and don't own one item of makeup. My work wardrobe right now is three shirts, two pants, one skirt, two dresses, and the majority of pieces predate my relationship (our nine year anniversary is next month). I use all the same soaps and stuff as my boyfriend as well. Nobody gives a shit.

Yes! If anyone is finding fault with my soap-and-water grooming routine, home haircut and simple wardrobe they're mostly not doing it to my face. I did have a giggle to myself when, after a recent hair trim, a colleague noted for barbed compliments said, "Oh! You've had your hair ... different."

I can totally believe statistics that show women spending much more than men on personal care. I have female colleagues who claim to struggle to get by on their salaries or to need a certain level of income but who seem to prioritise make-up, hair and nail titivation and what I'd describe as "pampering" and are always turning up in new clothes. These things are clearly not optional for many women.

Have you considered giving them a short but loud briefing on the myriad ways in which they might "fight the power"? If resistance to nail and hair stupidity reaches critical mass, the "not optional" perception can go away quickly from an employment perspective, if not from a mating perspective. Those two perspectives are orthogonal.

Nope, advising my work colleagues, however tangentially, on such matters is beyond my personal boundaries. Though when one of them was yattering on about needing a specific day off for a chiropody appointment, our one male colleague said, "Can't you do your own feet like everyone else does?"

RetiredAt63

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #154 on: June 13, 2018, 06:55:45 AM »

In the western world, in most circumstances, being female is a disadvantage.   In the rest of the world it's more of a curse.

In the entire world, in most circumstances, being male is an advantage.

That's just plain true.   Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.

Oh we've noticed, believe us.
Duh.

Well, I included that so I didn't have to (falsely) get shit on for not understanding that.

So, now I get to be shit on for showing I understand it.

Have a nice day.

Sorry, but you weren't clear.  If you are saying that to the men, then it's a great statement.  If you are saying it to the women, it's mansplaining.  So I will assume you were aiming it at the men.

SwordGuy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #155 on: June 13, 2018, 07:24:00 AM »

In the western world, in most circumstances, being female is a disadvantage.   In the rest of the world it's more of a curse.

In the entire world, in most circumstances, being male is an advantage.

That's just plain true.   Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.

Oh we've noticed, believe us.
Duh.

Well, I included that so I didn't have to (falsely) get shit on for not understanding that.

So, now I get to be shit on for showing I understand it.

Have a nice day.

Sorry, but you weren't clear.  If you are saying that to the men, then it's a great statement.  If you are saying it to the women, it's mansplaining.  So I will assume you were aiming it at the men.

I didn't see a "Post only to men" button on my message submission screen.   Perhaps you should ask the moderators for gender-specific posting buttons.

Or just figure out that this forum, along with all other public communication media, don't discriminate as to who receives the message.   I post an opinion and everyone gets to read it.    And since it's a forum in which all are invited to express their opinion, that's what we do.

When an original poster starts a thread, if they want to limit who responds, it's traditional to start off with statements like "Only reply if you are already FIRED." or "Only reply if you have an income below the median family income."     I don't recollect any such limitation when this thread started off.   If there was one and I forgot, my apologies.   Otherwise, I have every right to politely express an opinion you do.

I don't get to dismiss your opinion because you are a woman.   And you don't get to dismiss mine because I'm a man.

Incidentally, for those of you who think it's appropriate to dump on people who are your allies, have you been taking diplomacy lessons from Trump?


rdaneel0

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #156 on: June 13, 2018, 10:39:05 AM »

In the western world, in most circumstances, being female is a disadvantage.   In the rest of the world it's more of a curse.

In the entire world, in most circumstances, being male is an advantage.

That's just plain true.   Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.

Oh we've noticed, believe us.
Duh.

Well, I included that so I didn't have to (falsely) get shit on for not understanding that.

So, now I get to be shit on for showing I understand it.

Have a nice day.

Sorry, but you weren't clear.  If you are saying that to the men, then it's a great statement.  If you are saying it to the women, it's mansplaining.  So I will assume you were aiming it at the men.

I didn't see a "Post only to men" button on my message submission screen.   Perhaps you should ask the moderators for gender-specific posting buttons.

Or just figure out that this forum, along with all other public communication media, don't discriminate as to who receives the message.   I post an opinion and everyone gets to read it.    And since it's a forum in which all are invited to express their opinion, that's what we do.

When an original poster starts a thread, if they want to limit who responds, it's traditional to start off with statements like "Only reply if you are already FIRED." or "Only reply if you have an income below the median family income."     I don't recollect any such limitation when this thread started off.   If there was one and I forgot, my apologies.   Otherwise, I have every right to politely express an opinion you do.

I don't get to dismiss your opinion because you are a woman.   And you don't get to dismiss mine because I'm a man.

Incidentally, for those of you who think it's appropriate to dump on people who are your allies, have you been taking diplomacy lessons from Trump?


@SwordGuy feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

@RetiredAt63 I got the sense that SwordGuy wasn't "mansplaining" but rather attempting to showcase that he "gets it" to a degree, and that he's not one of these guys going around with his head in the sand about the fact that, generally women have more challenges in life than men.

Side Note Not Directed at Any Individual Specifically :

I think right now we're in an era where it's very difficult for people (even those that have fairly closely aligned views) to have a discussion without someone shouting "snowflake" or "mansplainer" or "white tears". Nothing is ever going to get better if we're all super reactive and sensitive without ever giving the benefit of the doubt. I think most people only really care about things that directly affect them, it's why men tend to only become educated about female stuff when they're in a serious relationship and a woman is important to them (or they have a daughter), and why celebrities start charities for diseases they or someone they now has, and why self made millionaires reach out to help those in poverty, like they once were. People are not good at putting themselves in other people's shoes, period.

Most women tend to dismiss social pressures and disadvantages towards men as infinitely less pervasive and damaging than what women experience, regardless of anecdotes or data. After all, look at how much power men have, and how women have been treated historically and are still treated in many countries. How could it possibly be hard to be male? That can't be!

Most men tend to dismiss the way women describe their experience because they don't quite believe things are *that* bad or that *those* comments *really* happen that often. After all, the guys they know are good guys, and if it happens that often...maybe some of them aren't? Maybe they even occasionally act in a sexist way? That can't be!

All humans do this with pretty much everything. The fact that we're all trying to close that gap a little bit is a good thing and I think the sign of a kinder and softer society, but I think it would be much easier to progress if we didn't jump to the worst possible conclusion or totally dismiss experiences that aren't familiar to us.

Imma

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #157 on: June 13, 2018, 10:45:10 AM »
I actually do find that pretending to have a modicum of interest in sportsball and other cultural phenomena tremendously helpful career wise. I'm not great at pretending, but it helps when I do.

Absolutely!

I used to work for a Dutch firm and was in Rotterdam on business when the Americans went to the World Cup for the first time.  (That's a soccer game - the one with the black and white round ball where they kick it around.  I add that for folks who are even more happily ignorant about ball games than I am. )

We were sitting in the hotel bar with some of the local employees after work.  In the background was a soccer game going on. I made a comment that I liked soccer better than American football, baseball or basketball.  ( Wasn't that tactful?  What I actually thought was it was marginally less boring.)

Suddenly, I was "one of the club".   I was their buddy.   They went out and bought me a Netherlands team hat, something to wave in my hand, and some orange face coloring (that being the national color there).   It was actually rather creepy.

And it was a very real object lesson in the cost and benefit of being oneself vs. going with the crowd.

I'm happy with my choice and the price I paid for it.  Shame I had to pay the price, but it was worth it to me.

Hahaha I know exactly what you went through! Our football team is our national religion. Which is why I make sure I know a little bit about it, even though I don't care much  - in my case that doesn't take too much effort because my s/o is just like the people you've encountered. I prefer football over some other sports because at least the game is easy to follow for someone not too familiar with the rules.

I absolutely agree that knowing a little bit about certain things people commonly like is very helpful for your career. I really can't be bothered to watch TV so I can talk about it at work the next day, but I hopefully compensate that by more or less keeping up to date with our local football team and cycling, which is another really popular sport here, especially in the south.

madgeylou

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #158 on: June 13, 2018, 11:59:50 AM »

In the western world, in most circumstances, being female is a disadvantage.   In the rest of the world it's more of a curse.

In the entire world, in most circumstances, being male is an advantage.

That's just plain true.   Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.

Oh we've noticed, believe us.
Duh.

Well, I included that so I didn't have to (falsely) get shit on for not understanding that.

So, now I get to be shit on for showing I understand it.

Have a nice day.

Sorry, but you weren't clear.  If you are saying that to the men, then it's a great statement.  If you are saying it to the women, it's mansplaining.  So I will assume you were aiming it at the men.

I didn't see a "Post only to men" button on my message submission screen.   Perhaps you should ask the moderators for gender-specific posting buttons.

Or just figure out that this forum, along with all other public communication media, don't discriminate as to who receives the message.   I post an opinion and everyone gets to read it.    And since it's a forum in which all are invited to express their opinion, that's what we do.

When an original poster starts a thread, if they want to limit who responds, it's traditional to start off with statements like "Only reply if you are already FIRED." or "Only reply if you have an income below the median family income."     I don't recollect any such limitation when this thread started off.   If there was one and I forgot, my apologies.   Otherwise, I have every right to politely express an opinion you do.

I don't get to dismiss your opinion because you are a woman.   And you don't get to dismiss mine because I'm a man.

Incidentally, for those of you who think it's appropriate to dump on people who are your allies, have you been taking diplomacy lessons from Trump?

I am at a loss to who you think is "shitting" on you? Somehow it's OK for you to share your opinion but not for others to say "duh" because your opinion is obvious to anyone who is already a woman?

Dabnasty

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #159 on: June 13, 2018, 12:06:27 PM »

Side Note Not Directed at Any Individual Specifically :

I think right now we're in an era where it's very difficult for people (even those that have fairly closely aligned views) to have a discussion without someone shouting "snowflake" or "mansplainer" or "white tears". Nothing is ever going to get better if we're all super reactive and sensitive without ever giving the benefit of the doubt. I think most people only really care about things that directly affect them, it's why men tend to only become educated about female stuff when they're in a serious relationship and a woman is important to them (or they have a daughter), and why celebrities start charities for diseases they or someone they now has, and why self made millionaires reach out to help those in poverty, like they once were. People are not good at putting themselves in other people's shoes, period.

Most women tend to dismiss social pressures and disadvantages towards men as infinitely less pervasive and damaging than what women experience, regardless of anecdotes or data. After all, look at how much power men have, and how women have been treated historically and are still treated in many countries. How could it possibly be hard to be male? That can't be!

Most men tend to dismiss the way women describe their experience because they don't quite believe things are *that* bad or that *those* comments *really* happen that often. After all, the guys they know are good guys, and if it happens that often...maybe some of them aren't? Maybe they even occasionally act in a sexist way? That can't be!

All humans do this with pretty much everything. The fact that we're all trying to close that gap a little bit is a good thing and I think the sign of a kinder and softer society, but I think it would be much easier to progress if we didn't jump to the worst possible conclusion or totally dismiss experiences that aren't familiar to us.

Thank you for that. It's something most of us probably understand but sometimes forget.

As for the words you mentioned, I think the world would be a better place if we could just strike them from our vocabulary. There's about a 0% chance that they add anything productive to a conversation.

Dabnasty

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #160 on: June 13, 2018, 12:20:14 PM »

In the western world, in most circumstances, being female is a disadvantage.   In the rest of the world it's more of a curse.

In the entire world, in most circumstances, being male is an advantage.

That's just plain true.   Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.

Oh we've noticed, believe us.
Duh.

Well, I included that so I didn't have to (falsely) get shit on for not understanding that.

So, now I get to be shit on for showing I understand it.

Have a nice day.

Sorry, but you weren't clear.  If you are saying that to the men, then it's a great statement.  If you are saying it to the women, it's mansplaining.  So I will assume you were aiming it at the men.

I didn't see a "Post only to men" button on my message submission screen.   Perhaps you should ask the moderators for gender-specific posting buttons.

Or just figure out that this forum, along with all other public communication media, don't discriminate as to who receives the message.   I post an opinion and everyone gets to read it.    And since it's a forum in which all are invited to express their opinion, that's what we do.

When an original poster starts a thread, if they want to limit who responds, it's traditional to start off with statements like "Only reply if you are already FIRED." or "Only reply if you have an income below the median family income."     I don't recollect any such limitation when this thread started off.   If there was one and I forgot, my apologies.   Otherwise, I have every right to politely express an opinion you do.

I don't get to dismiss your opinion because you are a woman.   And you don't get to dismiss mine because I'm a man.

Incidentally, for those of you who think it's appropriate to dump on people who are your allies, have you been taking diplomacy lessons from Trump?

I am at a loss to who you think is "shitting" on you? Somehow it's OK for you to share your opinion but not for others to say "duh" because your opinion is obvious to anyone who is already a woman?

Well this has become a silly tangent, but apparently I can't help myself.

Swordguy specifically said "Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention".

That seems pretty clear to me. If you think similarly, he wasn't referring to you. In fact saying "anyone who doesn't get it is not paying attention" is basically long form for "duh".

madgeylou

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #161 on: June 13, 2018, 12:22:36 PM »
@Dabnasty My question was really, how does someone saying "duh" constitute being shat upon? I don't get that ...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 12:35:21 PM by madgeylou »

Dabnasty

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #162 on: June 13, 2018, 12:44:41 PM »
@Dabnasty My question was really, how does someone saying "duh" to you constitute being shat upon? I don't get that ...

How does it not?

Maybe there was a bit of an overreaction, but it sucks when you try to extend an olive branch and you get your hand smacked.

It may not have the same punch in text form but "duh" is typically accompanied by an eye roll in person, which is the body language for patronizing dismissal. I'm not criticizing the person who said it so much as acknowledging that the eye roll/duh can be quite hurtful. It's one of those things that comes out real easy but often has more impact than was intended. My eyes tend to roll without my permission, especially when discussing finances, so I need to be extra aware of this :)




madgeylou

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #163 on: June 13, 2018, 12:48:53 PM »
@Dabnasty My question was really, how does someone saying "duh" to you constitute being shat upon? I don't get that ...

How does it not?

Maybe there was a bit of an overreaction, but it sucks when you try to extend an olive branch and you get your hand smacked.

It may not have the same punch in text form but "duh" is typically accompanied by an eye roll in person, which is the body language for patronizing dismissal. I'm not criticizing the person who said it so much as acknowledging that the eye roll/duh can be quite hurtful. It's one of those things that comes out real easy but often has more impact than was intended. My eyes tend to roll without my permission, especially when discussing finances, so I need to be extra aware of this :)

It was definitely a bit of an overreaction. You see an olive branch, but many of the women on the thread saw condescension and yes, the dreaded word MANSPLAINING.

At some point men are going to have to learn that some proportion of women are much more interested in being listened to when we discuss our experience, than having men try to explain our experience to us. (Just as I as a white woman am not gonna tell black people what is what with their experience.) When in doubt, hush. It's extremely mustachian / free!

Chris22

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #164 on: June 13, 2018, 12:55:03 PM »
@Dabnasty My question was really, how does someone saying "duh" to you constitute being shat upon? I don't get that ...

How does it not?

Maybe there was a bit of an overreaction, but it sucks when you try to extend an olive branch and you get your hand smacked.

It may not have the same punch in text form but "duh" is typically accompanied by an eye roll in person, which is the body language for patronizing dismissal. I'm not criticizing the person who said it so much as acknowledging that the eye roll/duh can be quite hurtful. It's one of those things that comes out real easy but often has more impact than was intended. My eyes tend to roll without my permission, especially when discussing finances, so I need to be extra aware of this :)

It was definitely a bit of an overreaction. You see an olive branch, but many of the women on the thread saw condescension and yes, the dreaded word MANSPLAINING.

At some point men are going to have to learn that some proportion of women are much more interested in being listened to when we discuss our experience, than having men try to explain our experience to us. (Just as I as a white woman am not gonna tell black people what is what with their experience.) When in doubt, hush. It's extremely mustachian / free!

This is men are from Mars/Women are from Venus stuff.

Generally speaking, when you tell a man about a problem, his natural instinct is to try and solve it.  Part of that solving process may be understanding the scope of the issue, which means pushing back on certain things ("did he really mean that").  It's not meant to be patronizing or anything else, it's how we solve problems. 

Women, on the other hand, don't necessarily want their problems solved as they want them understood and sympathized with.  This confuses men, because if you don't want us to try and solve a problem, why would you tell us about it?  A problem not looking for a solution is not a problem to men.

I feel comfortable "mansplaining" this because I am literally explaining about men. 

madgeylou

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #165 on: June 13, 2018, 01:01:46 PM »
It's possible to be condescending without intending to be so.

It's also amazing to me how much emotional work women are expected to do to dive into and understand a man's intentions. Why is it on US to be tap-dance around so we can be understanding about that? Why isn't rather on men to try to be less condescending in the first place?

This is a silly tangent for sure, but it's also a perfect illustration of the extra work that's required of women day to day in everything from caring more about our appearance than men do, to caring more about the feelings of men than they do ours.

SwordGuy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #166 on: June 13, 2018, 01:20:24 PM »

In the western world, in most circumstances, being female is a disadvantage.   In the rest of the world it's more of a curse.

In the entire world, in most circumstances, being male is an advantage.

That's just plain true.   Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.

Oh we've noticed, believe us.
Duh.

Well, I included that so I didn't have to (falsely) get shit on for not understanding that.

So, now I get to be shit on for showing I understand it.

Have a nice day.

Sorry, but you weren't clear.  If you are saying that to the men, then it's a great statement.  If you are saying it to the women, it's mansplaining.  So I will assume you were aiming it at the men.

I didn't see a "Post only to men" button on my message submission screen.   Perhaps you should ask the moderators for gender-specific posting buttons.

Or just figure out that this forum, along with all other public communication media, don't discriminate as to who receives the message.   I post an opinion and everyone gets to read it.    And since it's a forum in which all are invited to express their opinion, that's what we do.

When an original poster starts a thread, if they want to limit who responds, it's traditional to start off with statements like "Only reply if you are already FIRED." or "Only reply if you have an income below the median family income."     I don't recollect any such limitation when this thread started off.   If there was one and I forgot, my apologies.   Otherwise, I have every right to politely express an opinion you do.

I don't get to dismiss your opinion because you are a woman.   And you don't get to dismiss mine because I'm a man.

Incidentally, for those of you who think it's appropriate to dump on people who are your allies, have you been taking diplomacy lessons from Trump?

I am at a loss to who you think is "shitting" on you? Somehow it's OK for you to share your opinion but not for others to say "duh" because your opinion is obvious to anyone who is already a woman?

Well, if only women were reading this thread, it still might not be obvious to all of them. 

Here's an example of a woman who appears to be pretty clueless about the issue of equal rights for women.   I've seen stats that 53% of the people who look like her voted for Trump and Pence.   

Mustachean points, though, for the low cost outfit and haircut.




Dabnasty

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #167 on: June 13, 2018, 01:26:31 PM »
@Dabnasty My question was really, how does someone saying "duh" to you constitute being shat upon? I don't get that ...

How does it not?

Maybe there was a bit of an overreaction, but it sucks when you try to extend an olive branch and you get your hand smacked.

It may not have the same punch in text form but "duh" is typically accompanied by an eye roll in person, which is the body language for patronizing dismissal. I'm not criticizing the person who said it so much as acknowledging that the eye roll/duh can be quite hurtful. It's one of those things that comes out real easy but often has more impact than was intended. My eyes tend to roll without my permission, especially when discussing finances, so I need to be extra aware of this :)

It was definitely a bit of an overreaction. You see an olive branch, but many of the women on the thread saw condescension and yes, the dreaded word MANSPLAINING.

At some point men are going to have to learn that some proportion of women are much more interested in being listened to when we discuss our experience, than having men try to explain our experience to us. (Just as I as a white woman am not gonna tell black people what is what with their experience.) When in doubt, hush. It's extremely mustachian / free!

Why would it be taken as condescension? The statements A) gave acknowledgement that he understood the issues B) stated that the issues are fairly obvious. The statements were never an "explanation" of anything and even if they were, they were quite specifically directed at "Anyone who thinks differently".

Cressida

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #168 on: June 13, 2018, 08:23:57 PM »
At the end of the day, simple economics tells us that women's clothing is more expensive than men's simply because women will pay it.

This is a great point. We should all go naked instead.

Linda_Norway

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #169 on: June 14, 2018, 02:14:27 AM »

Nobody expects anything *that* over the top, I hope. Not when most of the women on this forum would be satisfied with a pair of jeans that (a) fit, (b) are comfortable, (c) look good, and (d) have functional pockets. Any man who can provide that is marriage material. (The diamond or the luxury SUV is probably easier to find.)

<...>

This winter/spring my DH actually sewed me such a pair of pants. The (a) fit, could be a little better, but otherwise the pants are fully wearable.

I did not get a diamond ring when DH proposed to me. But did get a bunch of roses. I guess he knew I don't care about diamonds. I would hate it if DH spent a lot of our common money on nonsense, even if it is for me.

It has taken me some years to stop wearing makeup, uncomfortable shoes and have expensive haircuts.
Once I was at a hairdresser together with a mentally less fortunate man. He heard what I had to pay for my basis haircut and commented that that was really expensive, way more than he usually paid for. He had noticed that very correctly. The hairdresser defended herself by saying that female haircuts just cost more. But it is BS if we are just talking about taking off a few centimeters (1-2 inches). I used to have it cut once or twice a year. But now I let DH cut it. The results look good enough.

Luckily at my job I can wear whatever I want. And I do indeed only have a few trousers and T-shirts that I circulate in. But actually next week, I am instructed to wear very representative clothes, as we are going to meet with English people, who apparently care more about looks. My male colleagues are going to wear a jacket. I will be wearing my nicest trousers and one of my jackets (one bought on sale for 20% of the price and the other one made by DH). But I am afraid I don't have a decent blouse to wear under. I guess I'll have to do with one of my t-shirts. We'll see, but I am not going to buy anything new!


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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #170 on: June 14, 2018, 03:30:16 PM »
I have a "low femme" look, and I can't separate the various factors that influence that. There's the societal pressure I face as a woman, there's the need to present adequately feminine for safety reasons because I'm transgender, and there's the decades where I was denied expressing myself. I'm not sure if the safety factor counteracts my avoiding the societal pressure as a child.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #171 on: June 15, 2018, 05:38:54 AM »
Here in Norway female razors are sometimes cheaper than male razors. When that is the case, my DH buys female razors for himself. He is a pragmatic person.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #172 on: June 15, 2018, 08:16:17 AM »
Is the razor thing that big of a deal to people? 

I "fell prey" to the famous Gillette razor/razor blade model a long time ago.  They sent me a Mach 3 razor for my 18th birthday, and I've been basically using it ever since (on probably my third handle).  I don't shave every day, as my beard doesn't grow in that fast and my office isn't that formal, so I can get away with shaving 3-4 times a week.  Doing this a blade lasts about 2-3 weeks judging by the little blue strip on the blade.  A 4-pack lasts about 3 months.  A 4-pack of Mach 3 blades, which are pretty pricey as razors go, is around $12.  So a dollar a week, more or less.  Is that really what people are bitching about? 

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #173 on: June 15, 2018, 08:51:50 AM »
Is the razor thing that big of a deal to people? 

I "fell prey" to the famous Gillette razor/razor blade model a long time ago.  They sent me a Mach 3 razor for my 18th birthday, and I've been basically using it ever since (on probably my third handle).  I don't shave every day, as my beard doesn't grow in that fast and my office isn't that formal, so I can get away with shaving 3-4 times a week.  Doing this a blade lasts about 2-3 weeks judging by the little blue strip on the blade.  A 4-pack lasts about 3 months.  A 4-pack of Mach 3 blades, which are pretty pricey as razors go, is around $12.  So a dollar a week, more or less.  Is that really what people are bitching about?

Not to mention butterfly/safety razors are unisex (maybe some are advertised for men, but they're all plain silver and black). I bought one for less than $20 a few years ago and get replacement blades 5/$1. With two sides per blade I use slightly more than 1/month. My total ongoing cost of shaving is <$3/year. If you use them on your body you may replace them more often but you could use a blade every week and spend ~$10/year.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #174 on: June 16, 2018, 03:55:27 AM »
Is the razor thing that big of a deal to people? 

I "fell prey" to the famous Gillette razor/razor blade model a long time ago.  They sent me a Mach 3 razor for my 18th birthday, and I've been basically using it ever since (on probably my third handle).  I don't shave every day, as my beard doesn't grow in that fast and my office isn't that formal, so I can get away with shaving 3-4 times a week.  Doing this a blade lasts about 2-3 weeks judging by the little blue strip on the blade.  A 4-pack lasts about 3 months.  A 4-pack of Mach 3 blades, which are pretty pricey as razors go, is around $12.  So a dollar a week, more or less.  Is that really what people are bitching about?

It is a mild annoyance for me to see that almost any product marketed at women is more expensive than a similar product designed for men, but there's a very easy solution: don't use more products than necessary for hygiene and choose the cheapest product or a neutral alternative. My s/o and I only use neutral products and we use the same shampoo, deodorant and toothpaste. I use a small amount of make-up when I have to.

What does feel very unfair to me, even though we're talking about very small amounts of money, is that in my country female sanitary products are considered a luxury and we are charged 21% VAT on it. Even though we're talking about an expensive of maybe €5/month it still feels unfair. Women have periods every month for half of their life, and products that we need during our periods are not luxury items.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #175 on: June 16, 2018, 05:02:49 AM »

What does feel very unfair to me, even though we're talking about very small amounts of money, is that in my country female sanitary products are considered a luxury and we are charged 21% VAT on it. Even though we're talking about an expensive of maybe €5/month it still feels unfair. Women have periods every month for half of their life, and products that we need during our periods are not luxury items.

Political pressure - Canada finally exempted feminine hygiene products for the HST back in 2015. It was from a private member's bill from an NDP (i.e. left wing) MP, Irene Mathyssen.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tampon-tax-will-end-july-1-1.3091533

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #176 on: June 16, 2018, 05:27:06 AM »
Is the razor thing that big of a deal to people? 

I "fell prey" to the famous Gillette razor/razor blade model a long time ago.  They sent me a Mach 3 razor for my 18th birthday, and I've been basically using it ever since (on probably my third handle).  I don't shave every day, as my beard doesn't grow in that fast and my office isn't that formal, so I can get away with shaving 3-4 times a week.  Doing this a blade lasts about 2-3 weeks judging by the little blue strip on the blade.  A 4-pack lasts about 3 months.  A 4-pack of Mach 3 blades, which are pretty pricey as razors go, is around $12.  So a dollar a week, more or less.  Is that really what people are bitching about?

I don't know if it is that big of a deal (other than systemically) but some of the men upthread expressed surprise (and possibly disdain? Hard to read intent on the interwebs) that women would pay that much more over the course of a lifetime for appearance.

I think the women here are just pointing out the things that add up that men might not be thinking about (Tampon tax, tampons/pads, razors, haircuts, the very real income restrictions that might come from not following societal norms etc).

Another point that was made upthread that is worth reiterating: yes there are workarounds for women (for most things), but we have to go and seek out that information and those services/products. We have to do work, just to learn that alternatives exist. For men, these are often the default product.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 05:36:01 AM by StarBright »

Malkynn

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #177 on: June 16, 2018, 06:16:48 AM »
Y’know what absolutely sucks for women???
Our clothes falling apart after very little use.
I remember back when I used to love fashion and buying new clothes, I would always dread putting new pieces in the wash because you never knew if they would come out looking like crap.

I bought a very nice suit for my corporate finance job.
I wore it twice.
Both the pants and the jacket now need to be repaired.
This is not unusual in women’s clothes, even “high quality” pieces. This is why I pretty much gave up on buying nice clothes and have stuck with almost 100% athletic gear for the past 5 years, because athletic gear is designed to take a beating, so I don’t worry about torn seams and broken zippers all the time.
Fucking hell.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #178 on: June 18, 2018, 08:28:19 AM »
Y’know what absolutely sucks for women???
Our clothes falling apart after very little use.
I remember back when I used to love fashion and buying new clothes, I would always dread putting new pieces in the wash because you never knew if they would come out looking like crap.

I bought a very nice suit for my corporate finance job.
I wore it twice.
Both the pants and the jacket now need to be repaired.
This is not unusual in women’s clothes, even “high quality” pieces. This is why I pretty much gave up on buying nice clothes and have stuck with almost 100% athletic gear for the past 5 years, because athletic gear is designed to take a beating, so I don’t worry about torn seams and broken zippers all the time.
Fucking hell.

During every year I bought a woman's winter jacket in a clothes shop for women, the zipper fell apart after some months. That sucks, having to either repair an otherwise good jacket. But when I buy a winter jacket in a shops shops, it holds on many years. I have stopped buying winter jackets in clothing shops. And I still use my winter jacket from the sports shop for the 5th or 6th winter now. Although there is a bit of down coming from the seems.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #179 on: June 18, 2018, 01:41:34 PM »
Y’know what absolutely sucks for women???
Our clothes falling apart after very little use.
I remember back when I used to love fashion and buying new clothes, I would always dread putting new pieces in the wash because you never knew if they would come out looking like crap.

I bought a very nice suit for my corporate finance job.
I wore it twice.
Both the pants and the jacket now need to be repaired.
This is not unusual in women’s clothes, even “high quality” pieces. This is why I pretty much gave up on buying nice clothes and have stuck with almost 100% athletic gear for the past 5 years, because athletic gear is designed to take a beating, so I don’t worry about torn seams and broken zippers all the time.
Fucking hell.

I don't buy a lot of clothing (my wife does most of the clothes shopping in our household), but I do buy a lot of tools.  There are cheap tools that fall apart really fast, there are cheap tools that don't work very well, there are cheap tools that don't work well AND fall apart quickly, and then there are cheap tools that do a fine job and last a long time.    I've pretty much learned how to tell the difference most of the time.   I've learned what brands to trust and which to avoid.  I've learned how to spot a lot of the subtle differences between shoddy or quality tools.   

I've bought a few men's "fashion" clothing items over the years.   All turned out to have shoddy construction and they didn't last.  But if I buy sensible clothing that's made out of fabrics that have staying power, and constructed in a reasonable way, the clothes last.

My wife doesn't seem to have a problem with buying clothes for herself that last, either.   She rarely purchases expensive clothing items, either.   Dresses well when she wants to and doesn't when she doesn't.   Maybe it's because she took the time to learn how to sew and therefore understands fabrics and and garment construction, so she can recognize quality when she sees it.

Maybe folks are shopping in the wrong stores or looking at the wrong products.   

Or maybe my wife is just the Warren Buffet of finding inexpensive, long-lasting garments.  Dunno.   

If you're happy with your clothes shopping results, then by all means, carry on.   

If you're not, and you spend a lot on clothes and don't want to, then maybe there's room for improvement in how you go about it.

And if you're absolutely sure you're doing everything right but don't like how much you're paying, and are absolutely positive it's society's fault despite the evidence that other women have succeeded at dressing well on a budget;  then blame away.



Malkynn

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #180 on: June 18, 2018, 02:45:25 PM »
Y’know what absolutely sucks for women???
Our clothes falling apart after very little use.
I remember back when I used to love fashion and buying new clothes, I would always dread putting new pieces in the wash because you never knew if they would come out looking like crap.

I bought a very nice suit for my corporate finance job.
I wore it twice.
Both the pants and the jacket now need to be repaired.
This is not unusual in women’s clothes, even “high quality” pieces. This is why I pretty much gave up on buying nice clothes and have stuck with almost 100% athletic gear for the past 5 years, because athletic gear is designed to take a beating, so I don’t worry about torn seams and broken zippers all the time.
Fucking hell.

I don't buy a lot of clothing (my wife does most of the clothes shopping in our household), but I do buy a lot of tools.  There are cheap tools that fall apart really fast, there are cheap tools that don't work very well, there are cheap tools that don't work well AND fall apart quickly, and then there are cheap tools that do a fine job and last a long time.    I've pretty much learned how to tell the difference most of the time.   I've learned what brands to trust and which to avoid.  I've learned how to spot a lot of the subtle differences between shoddy or quality tools.   

I've bought a few men's "fashion" clothing items over the years.   All turned out to have shoddy construction and they didn't last.  But if I buy sensible clothing that's made out of fabrics that have staying power, and constructed in a reasonable way, the clothes last.

My wife doesn't seem to have a problem with buying clothes for herself that last, either.   She rarely purchases expensive clothing items, either.   Dresses well when she wants to and doesn't when she doesn't.   Maybe it's because she took the time to learn how to sew and therefore understands fabrics and and garment construction, so she can recognize quality when she sees it.

Maybe folks are shopping in the wrong stores or looking at the wrong products.   

Or maybe my wife is just the Warren Buffet of finding inexpensive, long-lasting garments.  Dunno.   

If you're happy with your clothes shopping results, then by all means, carry on.   

If you're not, and you spend a lot on clothes and don't want to, then maybe there's room for improvement in how you go about it.

And if you're absolutely sure you're doing everything right but don't like how much you're paying, and are absolutely positive it's society's fault despite the evidence that other women have succeeded at dressing well on a budget;  then blame away.

Funny.

I worked in clothing retail at a high end store for years and the women’s side constantly had pieces being returned for torn seams, broken zippers, fabrics that pilled or pulled excessively when washed, etc, etc. I loved working in the menswear side because we had virtually none of that.

No, obviously not ALL women’s clothing is made poorly, it’s just frustrating just how much of it is made like shit, even if it’s supposed to be “high quality” and by companies that seem totally capable of making durable menswear.

Cool that your wife doesn’t have any challenges finding durable and fashionable clothes. She could probably make a fortune as a personal shopper. I’m hosting an event for female medical professionals in a few months and one of the major concerns for many of them is a reliable source of quality clothes because they don’t have time to shop and it’s incredibly frustrating when what they buy doesn’t last, even if they go with higher end brands. A personal shopper is one of the vendors we’re bringing in to meet this demand.

Even after years of working in clothing, having a family that owns a high end women’s clothing store, and taking sewing classes for the last several years, I still manage to get fooled by pieces that seem well-constructed but fall apart quickly anyway, like the Italian-made wool suit I just bought and repaired twice.

But yeah, thanks for the suggestion that I try harder. I’ll definitely do that.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #181 on: June 18, 2018, 03:39:54 PM »
Question: What the hell are you guys doing to your clothes that they fall apart and break so quickly? I don't even buy high end stuff, and most of my work wardrobe is 10+ years old. I anticipate wearing most of what I've got now right through to retirement.

Most of my clothes have never seen the inside of a dryer, and I wear things a few times between washes, so there's some stuff to try.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #182 on: June 18, 2018, 07:30:02 PM »
Question: What the hell are you guys doing to your clothes that they fall apart and break so quickly? I don't even buy high end stuff, and most of my work wardrobe is 10+ years old. I anticipate wearing most of what I've got now right through to retirement.

Most of my clothes have never seen the inside of a dryer, and I wear things a few times between washes, so there's some stuff to try.

We do high-end ninja stuff like "sitting", "walking", "putting the clothes on" and "taking the clothes off". The latter two are more than enough to destroy the kind of zipper you find in women's clothing. They aren't actually designed to be zipped up or unzipped. The teeth are microscopic and frequently misaligned.

OtherJen

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #183 on: June 18, 2018, 09:00:59 PM »
Question: What the hell are you guys doing to your clothes that they fall apart and break so quickly? I don't even buy high end stuff, and most of my work wardrobe is 10+ years old. I anticipate wearing most of what I've got now right through to retirement.

Most of my clothes have never seen the inside of a dryer, and I wear things a few times between washes, so there's some stuff to try.

We do high-end ninja stuff like "sitting", "walking", "putting the clothes on" and "taking the clothes off". The latter two are more than enough to destroy the kind of zipper you find in women's clothing. They aren't actually designed to be zipped up or unzipped. The teeth are microscopic and frequently misaligned.

Yep. I remember well the dress that had to be cut off of me as I was getting dressed one morning because the zipper went halfway up, locked itself, and would not budge in either direction. Fortunately, I was able to pay a tailor to replace the zipper (for about US$30 plus the cost of the zipper itself), but as I'd already paid $60 for what was billed as a good quality dress, I was a bit annoyed.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #184 on: June 18, 2018, 09:57:54 PM »
Ugh I have lost many a dress to cheap zippers, and fancy work shirts to fingernails. Nobody let me loose around silk. I have sturdy, cheap clothes that last years, and expensive stuff that I'm afraid to take outside. Unfortunately the cheap, sturdy stuff generally doesn't look as good.

I'm grateful for my new office, where people wear shorts and flip-flops. Well. One person wears shorts and flip-flops. At least it means nobody looks askance at my bright teal sneakers.

Zikoris

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #185 on: June 18, 2018, 11:44:14 PM »
Question: What the hell are you guys doing to your clothes that they fall apart and break so quickly? I don't even buy high end stuff, and most of my work wardrobe is 10+ years old. I anticipate wearing most of what I've got now right through to retirement.

Most of my clothes have never seen the inside of a dryer, and I wear things a few times between washes, so there's some stuff to try.

We do high-end ninja stuff like "sitting", "walking", "putting the clothes on" and "taking the clothes off". The latter two are more than enough to destroy the kind of zipper you find in women's clothing. They aren't actually designed to be zipped up or unzipped. The teeth are microscopic and frequently misaligned.

Okay? I do all of that stuff and my clothes don't just fall apart, and like I said, I just buy normal stuff and take care of it.

I swear, I feel like I'm living in some sort of alternate reality sometimes, because I hear all this stuff about women having it tough in all these weird ways, and in 31 years I have yet to experience it.

Hirondelle

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #186 on: June 18, 2018, 11:51:50 PM »
I also don't have this problem, or at least not to the extent it's described here. Sure I've had a cheap H&M top losing its color after a few washings, but that's about how bad it got. Now I also rarely/never buy high-end stuff so no clue about the quality of that.

I have to admit that I only have 1 dress with a zipper though. And it's a zipper with relatively big teeth so probably more durable. I honestly don't know why I would want to buy things with those tiny zippers - they're annoying even if they don't break!

Apart from the zipper problem, what else falls apart easily?

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #187 on: June 18, 2018, 11:54:49 PM »
Question: What the hell are you guys doing to your clothes that they fall apart and break so quickly? I don't even buy high end stuff, and most of my work wardrobe is 10+ years old. I anticipate wearing most of what I've got now right through to retirement.

Most of my clothes have never seen the inside of a dryer, and I wear things a few times between washes, so there's some stuff to try.

For my winter jackets: I use the zipper several days a year in exactly the same fashion for jackets bought in women's shops and jackets bought in sports shops. The fancy store zippers break, the sports shop zippers last.
I have learned to look at the zipper brand. YKK is good quality. And there is another brand that I don't recall now, but I've got it in a book somewhere. I don't buy jackets with zippers from other brands.

The rest of my clothes last quite well. Although I have twice needed to replace a zipper in trousers (myself, while being totally inexperienced in sewing).

Linda_Norway

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #188 on: June 19, 2018, 12:01:28 AM »
I also don't have this problem, or at least not to the extent it's described here. Sure I've had a cheap H&M top losing its color after a few washings, but that's about how bad it got. Now I also rarely/never buy high-end stuff so no clue about the quality of that.

I have to admit that I only have 1 dress with a zipper though. And it's a zipper with relatively big teeth so probably more durable. I honestly don't know why I would want to buy things with those tiny zippers - they're annoying even if they don't break!

Apart from the zipper problem, what else falls apart easily?

I have one blouse that has torn in a seam. But it is too small for me, so that is the main cause.

I also used to have a discolouring H&M shirt. It has such a nice colour to start with. But it said on the label not to expect the colour to last.

Some trousers get chafed in the thighs when you walk a lot. But as seen in another thread here, that also happens to men in some cases.

Some T-shirts get rough in the cloth after washing them many times or not quite so many times. I think I have one shirt that is washed less than 10 times and the cloth is already looking less pretty. While others look that way after washing weekly for 2 years.

ElleFiji

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #189 on: June 19, 2018, 02:28:52 AM »
Zikoris, what stuff is normal for you? Maybe I can buy it.

For me, I find that buying new or new to me clothes has a 50 50 chance of lasting  2-4 years heavy use, or falling apart way too fast. When I go to replace the longer lasting stuff, it is often discontinued or the new version is worse quality. So a pair of leggings I replace 3-4 times in a year, and then not again for 3-4 years. It looks like sweaters are going to need to get bought this fall unfortunately.

Shoes I just go through absurdly fast, partially due to walking.

OtherJen

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #190 on: June 19, 2018, 03:57:45 AM »
I also don't have this problem, or at least not to the extent it's described here. Sure I've had a cheap H&M top losing its color after a few washings, but that's about how bad it got. Now I also rarely/never buy high-end stuff so no clue about the quality of that.

I have to admit that I only have 1 dress with a zipper though. And it's a zipper with relatively big teeth so probably more durable. I honestly don't know why I would want to buy things with those tiny zippers - they're annoying even if they don't break!

Apart from the zipper problem, what else falls apart easily?

In my case, the bad zipper was in a dress purchased online from a company that I had trusted.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #191 on: June 19, 2018, 08:02:26 AM »
Question: What the hell are you guys doing to your clothes that they fall apart and break so quickly? I don't even buy high end stuff, and most of my work wardrobe is 10+ years old. I anticipate wearing most of what I've got now right through to retirement.

Most of my clothes have never seen the inside of a dryer, and I wear things a few times between washes, so there's some stuff to try.

We do high-end ninja stuff like "sitting", "walking", "putting the clothes on" and "taking the clothes off". The latter two are more than enough to destroy the kind of zipper you find in women's clothing. They aren't actually designed to be zipped up or unzipped. The teeth are microscopic and frequently misaligned.

Okay? I do all of that stuff and my clothes don't just fall apart, and like I said, I just buy normal stuff and take care of it.

I swear, I feel like I'm living in some sort of alternate reality sometimes, because I hear all this stuff about women having it tough in all these weird ways, and in 31 years I have yet to experience it.

So I'm going to try and treat lightly here. But my impression, Zik, given your veganism and general focus on health and life balance, is that you're on the slender side? Or at least don't fluctuate weight a lot? I'm of a similar ilk, and one of my good friends who struggles with weight pointed out to me that was key in my clothes lasting so long (she's my frugal bestie, we've had this exact convo). I'm comfortable buying stretchier fabrics since I don't mind the clinging as much. And less weight fluctuation means fewer demands on seams and zippers. This also held up to me because the big thing that does wear out for me- I am fairly tall, and for a time all the shirts I could find for sale were just a touch too short. I found myself tugging them down constantly. These developed little holes at the bottom where I had been tugging the shirts down. They didn't last a year, whereas I have other shirts by the same company in the same fabric that have lasted over 6 years now. So I think fit, and wear, and body type, are all playing roles here.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #192 on: June 19, 2018, 08:32:18 AM »
Question: What the hell are you guys doing to your clothes that they fall apart and break so quickly? I don't even buy high end stuff, and most of my work wardrobe is 10+ years old. I anticipate wearing most of what I've got now right through to retirement.

Most of my clothes have never seen the inside of a dryer, and I wear things a few times between washes, so there's some stuff to try.

We do high-end ninja stuff like "sitting", "walking", "putting the clothes on" and "taking the clothes off". The latter two are more than enough to destroy the kind of zipper you find in women's clothing. They aren't actually designed to be zipped up or unzipped. The teeth are microscopic and frequently misaligned.

Okay? I do all of that stuff and my clothes don't just fall apart, and like I said, I just buy normal stuff and take care of it.

I swear, I feel like I'm living in some sort of alternate reality sometimes, because I hear all this stuff about women having it tough in all these weird ways, and in 31 years I have yet to experience it.


This is the exact kind of situation we make merciless fun of when people don't believe it's possible to save and invest your way to wealth.

You know it's possible to do this because you've been living it for decades.   And yet people who are bound and determined to continue doing whatever it is that they're doing, are unwilling to accept that their misery is self-inflicted because of the choices they are making.

OtherJen

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #193 on: June 19, 2018, 08:45:26 AM »
Question: What the hell are you guys doing to your clothes that they fall apart and break so quickly? I don't even buy high end stuff, and most of my work wardrobe is 10+ years old. I anticipate wearing most of what I've got now right through to retirement.

Most of my clothes have never seen the inside of a dryer, and I wear things a few times between washes, so there's some stuff to try.

We do high-end ninja stuff like "sitting", "walking", "putting the clothes on" and "taking the clothes off". The latter two are more than enough to destroy the kind of zipper you find in women's clothing. They aren't actually designed to be zipped up or unzipped. The teeth are microscopic and frequently misaligned.

Okay? I do all of that stuff and my clothes don't just fall apart, and like I said, I just buy normal stuff and take care of it.

I swear, I feel like I'm living in some sort of alternate reality sometimes, because I hear all this stuff about women having it tough in all these weird ways, and in 31 years I have yet to experience it.

So I'm going to try and treat lightly here. But my impression, Zik, given your veganism and general focus on health and life balance, is that you're on the slender side? Or at least don't fluctuate weight a lot? I'm of a similar ilk, and one of my good friends who struggles with weight pointed out to me that was key in my clothes lasting so long (she's my frugal bestie, we've had this exact convo). I'm comfortable buying stretchier fabrics since I don't mind the clinging as much. And less weight fluctuation means fewer demands on seams and zippers. This also held up to me because the big thing that does wear out for me- I am fairly tall, and for a time all the shirts I could find for sale were just a touch too short. I found myself tugging them down constantly. These developed little holes at the bottom where I had been tugging the shirts down. They didn't last a year, whereas I have other shirts by the same company in the same fabric that have lasted over 6 years now. So I think fit, and wear, and body type, are all playing roles here.

Good point. I used to work with a woman who, despite being a US size 4, carried all extra body fat in her hips and thighs. This meant that her thighs rubbed together when she walked. With regular wear, the chafing would eventually wear holes right through the fabric.

I don’t have that particular problem because even though I’m slightly larger (US size 6), my hips are built differently and I carry more weight in my upper body; this means that I have a slight thigh gap and don’t have to worry about chafing. I do, however, carry more fat in my backside, so the fabric on pants tends to wear out around the rear pocket stitching after a few years. The extra fat distribution on top means that even though I buy good bras (expensive and a giant pain in the ass as I need a size 30 band, which is not made by US companies), they are subject to heavy use. I will therefore need to replace them more frequently than would someone who wears a B-cup.

Zikoris

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #194 on: June 19, 2018, 09:50:12 AM »
Question: What the hell are you guys doing to your clothes that they fall apart and break so quickly? I don't even buy high end stuff, and most of my work wardrobe is 10+ years old. I anticipate wearing most of what I've got now right through to retirement.

Most of my clothes have never seen the inside of a dryer, and I wear things a few times between washes, so there's some stuff to try.

We do high-end ninja stuff like "sitting", "walking", "putting the clothes on" and "taking the clothes off". The latter two are more than enough to destroy the kind of zipper you find in women's clothing. They aren't actually designed to be zipped up or unzipped. The teeth are microscopic and frequently misaligned.

Okay? I do all of that stuff and my clothes don't just fall apart, and like I said, I just buy normal stuff and take care of it.

I swear, I feel like I'm living in some sort of alternate reality sometimes, because I hear all this stuff about women having it tough in all these weird ways, and in 31 years I have yet to experience it.

So I'm going to try and treat lightly here. But my impression, Zik, given your veganism and general focus on health and life balance, is that you're on the slender side? Or at least don't fluctuate weight a lot? I'm of a similar ilk, and one of my good friends who struggles with weight pointed out to me that was key in my clothes lasting so long (she's my frugal bestie, we've had this exact convo). I'm comfortable buying stretchier fabrics since I don't mind the clinging as much. And less weight fluctuation means fewer demands on seams and zippers. This also held up to me because the big thing that does wear out for me- I am fairly tall, and for a time all the shirts I could find for sale were just a touch too short. I found myself tugging them down constantly. These developed little holes at the bottom where I had been tugging the shirts down. They didn't last a year, whereas I have other shirts by the same company in the same fabric that have lasted over 6 years now. So I think fit, and wear, and body type, are all playing roles here.

I suppose I've pretty average for my area? Maybe slim by American standards?



I've been kind of wondering the same thing but couldn't think of a delicate way to put it - maybe people are buying stuff that's just too small, and it's wrecking the zippers/seam/buttons? I actually don't own many things with buttons or zippers, more for comfort and ease than anything. Almost everything I own is stretchy.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #195 on: June 19, 2018, 09:51:39 AM »
I bought pants from the Gap twice. The hems on each started to unravel after two wears (not washes, wears). I have never again bought pants from the Gap. On the other hand, I bought jeans from Forever 21 for like 7 bucks each -- and I rotated three pairs for over a year as pretty much the only thing I wore. One now needs patching and is a bit stretched out several years later, but they're still wearable (especially post-patching) and the other pairs are in good condition.

There are some serious differences based on where you're buying, and it seems to me like a lot of the cheaper places often end up with better construction than "nicer" stores.

madgeylou

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #196 on: June 19, 2018, 10:07:37 AM »
Some of it is has to do with whether your clothes are stretchy or not. If not, then of course there's going to be more stress on seams/zippers/etc. Common sense, I should think.

A lot of it also has to do with the fact that quality assurance on clothing and fabric in general is shit. My friend who is a fit model told me that some jeans construction contracts have a 1.5 inch error allowance built into the contract. That means that you could buy one pair of jeans in a certain size from a certain brand and have them fit perfectly, and then the next one you purchase could have up to 1.5" difference in any/all of the measurements. Which could of course impact the stress placed on the garment not to mention the frustration of having "the same" item not fit properly. If you bought the second pair of jeans without trying them on, trusting that they would fit since the first ones did, and you couldn't return, you'd be SOL.

When I was running my dressmaking company, I ran into fabric issues all the time. The pattern you use for any garment has to be altered depending on the stretch and thickness of a fabric, so I once ordered just a few yards of an expensive double-knit wool to test with. Once I got my pattern working well with it, I went back and placed a much larger order, and the fabric was completely different. I was able to change my pattern again but I can imagine that large producers might not bother with this. This would also lead to differences in the stress placed on a garment and how it fits.

I get around this by buying 5-10 items online, trying them on, and keeping only the ones that fit me. So I end up only buying from companies who make it easy to return. I'm pretty sure this is a lot more work than men have to do to be properly clothed.

One more thing -- over the years, even casual women's garments have started to be produced in flimsier and flimsier fabric. This is sold as a fashion feature -- layering is in this season so why not wear 3 shirts at a time! -- but really it's a way to get women to buy and wear several layers at a time. I haven't seen this happening with dudes' clothes.

Body size also comes into play in a major way. Plus sized women (68% of the population in the US) have far fewer choices, and end up having to settle for the 60% okay pants because that's all there is for them on any particular shopping trip ... whereas straight sized women (32% of the population) have far more choices. Again I get around this by planning ahead, but if you need black pants today and you're a size 20 and you go to the mall or to a place like Target? Your options are going to be extremely limited.

(And if anyone wants to come back with a snarky statement like "Well you should just lose weight then," let me invite you to please go fuck yourself. There is no proven protocol for losing weight and fat people also need to be clothed.)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 10:10:26 AM by madgeylou »

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #197 on: June 19, 2018, 10:16:32 AM »
So, uh, not a girl and also someone without much fashion sense . . . but couldn't you just switch to wearing skirts instead of pants?  If the skirt has pleats, or is wider at the bottom than the top, then you really would only have to mess around with a single waist measurement.  I'd think it would be massively easier all around.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #198 on: June 19, 2018, 10:21:04 AM »
So, uh, not a girl and also someone without much fashion sense . . . but couldn't you just switch to wearing skirts instead of pants?  If the skirt has pleats, or is wider at the bottom than the top, then you really would only have to mess around with a single waist measurement.  I'd think it would be massively easier all around.

Now I do love skirts... but most of them don't have pockets.

madgeylou

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #199 on: June 19, 2018, 10:24:40 AM »
So, uh, not a girl and also someone without much fashion sense . . . but couldn't you just switch to wearing skirts instead of pants?  If the skirt has pleats, or is wider at the bottom than the top, then you really would only have to mess around with a single waist measurement.  I'd think it would be massively easier all around.

Sure, that could definitely work for some women ... but as you might expect, there are complicating factors :)

For instance, I am not a fan of how a-line skirts look on me -- I prefer the look of slim skirts and trousers.

Skirts can also be kind of limiting if you have to, for instance, crawl under your desk to hook something up or sit on a cold airplane or climb on a chair to do something. And many of us also face the dreaded chub-rub issue. You can wear leggings or tights or bike shorts underneath, but it's again another garment and another thing to purchase/maintain/think about.

Honestly, I would be very surprised if a man was able to offer helpful advice on women's clothing -- and that is NOT a knock against any particular dude or dudekind in general -- it's just similar to how women are generally not going to have helpful advice on what kind of underwear will be most comfortable for a man's anatomy. No experience, and plus it varies greatly from person to person.