Author Topic: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?  (Read 16468 times)

Travis

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2018, 07:40:49 PM »
Grim Squeaker, when you want to hit the barricades, let me know.  I have a lousy throwing arm but I can hand you the bottles and light the fuses.

You know what fills my personal rage bucket with napalm?
I'm stealing this. So you know.
It's the number of fucking stupid uniform shoes I'm required to own. Steel toed boots, black oxfords and white oxfords for the pants uniforms, black pumps and white pumps for the skirt variation of the same uniforms, black heels and white heels for the white tie uniforms. Seven. SEVEN pairs of uniform shoes, and 4 of the pairs are stupid.[/quote]

These are all for the same job? Different jobs? (cannot picture work that requires both steel toed and pumps...)
[/quote]

This is the contents of her closet.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FdK6JLbqee4/Sxb5344hhuI/AAAAAAAAAEk/QYrBA7pwRJM/s400/Coast+guard+uniforms.png

StarBright

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #101 on: June 10, 2018, 08:11:37 PM »
I saw a documentary about Korean men wearing makeup to make their skin look flawless, and one of the guys they interviewed talked about how it builds his confidence, how he likes to look like a man who could handle any situation. My first thought was, "What about the situation where you have no makeup?"

The appearance = confidence = attractiveness thing baffles me in this day and age. It's just seems so primitive. It's understandable that someone with healthy skin, symmetrical features, good muscle tone, and large sexual organs would be confident and attractive from the standpoint of reproduction, but there's more to consider wrt a good mate, and society should be advancing along that line of reasoning. But no, we're moving in the opposite direction, the direction of insecurity and greed.

Which one takes more self-confidence, waltzing into a room looking good because of the layers you've put on, or waltzing in with no layers, perfectly at ease and in control? If it's sex we're concerned with, that bare type of confidence seems more appealing to me, and it seems superior in other areas as well, such as intelligence and insightfulness.

Thatís cool that thatís your preference, but I can tell you from experience that that isnít most peopleís preference.

Most people respond much better to the makeup layers, the heels, the long shiny hair, etc, etc.

I am 100% comfortable in my own skin, walking in to almost any environment with no makeup, no frills clothes, and a pair of running shoes, but I would be absolutely lying if I didnít say that I get infinitely more and better attention when I scrub up, spackle on the war paint, and cram my toes into torture shoes. Itís not even a small difference in how people react. The social pressure is very real.

I donít hold it against anyone that they conform to expectations, not everyone enjoys consequences of rebellion.

Thumbs up to your bolded. I'm the breadwinner for my family and while I am lucky enough to work from home often (with all of the no makeup, grungy hair, jeans and tshirtness that I want), I wouldn't have my job if I wasn't willing to to look how I'm expected to look when it comes to meeting with customers, vendors, industry folks, etc.

I'd love to never wear make up, flat iron my hair, or traipse around in uncomfortable shoes ever again, but I like supporting my family more!


SwordGuy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2018, 09:10:14 PM »
My mom, my wife, and my wife's mom all sew.   

They made stylish clothes that fit them much better than store-bought ones for a fraction of the cost.

(No reason men can't sew also, though since our fashion needs are typically simpler, the opportunity cost of developing sewing skill doesn't get compensated for by as large a benefit.)

Malkynn

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2018, 05:21:33 AM »
My mom, my wife, and my wife's mom all sew.   

They made stylish clothes that fit them much better than store-bought ones for a fraction of the cost.

(No reason men can't sew also, though since our fashion needs are typically simpler, the opportunity cost of developing sewing skill doesn't get compensated for by as large a benefit.)

I do this too, but Iíve had to invest thousands in learning how, and Iím still only passably decent at it.
I would never be able to make suits, which both DH and I need for work.

Also, fabric is crazy expensive and it can easily end up more expensive than buying cheap clothes at discount stores. I cannot make clothes for cheaper than I can buy them at Costco, so I donít tend to make clothes from scratch, I learned to sew so that I could tailor my own clothes properly as I have an extremely hard time finding anything that fits off the rack.

Sewing has saved me a fortune in alteration costs, but not much in terms of actually buying clothes.

SwordGuy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2018, 05:33:15 AM »
My mom, my wife, and my wife's mom all sew.   

They made stylish clothes that fit them much better than store-bought ones for a fraction of the cost.

(No reason men can't sew also, though since our fashion needs are typically simpler, the opportunity cost of developing sewing skill doesn't get compensated for by as large a benefit.)

I do this too, but Iíve had to invest thousands in learning how, and Iím still only passably decent at it.
I would never be able to make suits, which both DH and I need for work.

Also, fabric is crazy expensive and it can easily end up more expensive than buying cheap clothes at discount stores. I cannot make clothes for cheaper than I can buy them at Costco, so I donít tend to make clothes from scratch, I learned to sew so that I could tailor my own clothes properly as I have an extremely hard time finding anything that fits off the rack.

Sewing has saved me a fortune in alteration costs, but not much in terms of actually buying clothes.

That logic doesn't make sense in the context of this thread.   Sorry.

Either

a) Clothes are horribly expensive for women because of "the pink tax" or,
b) Clothes are too inexpensive for sewing to save money.

Reminds me of this scene in Raising Arizona:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF9OLZKSC5k



Fomerly known as something

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2018, 06:01:39 AM »
I've only had men at work comment that I should wear make-up more often.  Lucky for me even when I'm in a suit I'm in a job where I don't have to wear make-up.

But even without:

Hair cuts, I have a simple hair cut but have to pay 50% more than a man.  (Straight cut to shoulder length)

Suits, many women's suits only come in sets, I do not wear the same size coat and pants.  And finding ones with pockets scavenger hunt.

Shoes, lucky for me I can get by with half boots with my pantsuits so not as much of an issue.

I do get my revenge on the guys with being able to wear no collared blouses instead of dress shirt with tie though.

Malkynn

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #106 on: June 11, 2018, 06:09:55 AM »
My mom, my wife, and my wife's mom all sew.   

They made stylish clothes that fit them much better than store-bought ones for a fraction of the cost.

(No reason men can't sew also, though since our fashion needs are typically simpler, the opportunity cost of developing sewing skill doesn't get compensated for by as large a benefit.)

I do this too, but Iíve had to invest thousands in learning how, and Iím still only passably decent at it.
I would never be able to make suits, which both DH and I need for work.

Also, fabric is crazy expensive and it can easily end up more expensive than buying cheap clothes at discount stores. I cannot make clothes for cheaper than I can buy them at Costco, so I donít tend to make clothes from scratch, I learned to sew so that I could tailor my own clothes properly as I have an extremely hard time finding anything that fits off the rack.

Sewing has saved me a fortune in alteration costs, but not much in terms of actually buying clothes.

That logic doesn't make sense in the context of this thread.   Sorry.

Either

a) Clothes are horribly expensive for women because of "the pink tax" or,
b) Clothes are too inexpensive for sewing to save money.

Reminds me of this scene in Raising Arizona:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF9OLZKSC5k

My point was that even with many hours of classes learning how to sew, Iím still not skilled enough to make the kind of clothes that cost a lot of money.

The only level of clothes I can make like leggings, summer dresses, or simple shirts, are easily found cheap at places like Costco. And I havenít ever said that women canít find cheap casual clothes. Well made knock-off Lululemon leggings at Costco cost $17 here and are made in Canada. Theyíre dirt cheap, high quality and awesome, and I wear them daily for my day job.

When it comes to nicer, more expensive clothes, like I need for my side hustle corporate job, I get most of my savings from doing my own alterations.

I was simply sharing my personal experience of how learning to sew has not been able to replace my whole wardrobe with stylish custom pieces like ppís wife and mother have been able to. That level of skill is very difficult to get to. I wish I was there after 4 years, but Iím not, and Iíve invested a lot in lessons.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 06:13:41 AM by Malkynn »

expatartist

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #107 on: June 11, 2018, 06:11:37 AM »
Hand sewn clothing by amateurs is unlikely to be practical for professionals who require a sharp, tailored look for work: big law, finance, etc particularly in the NE US and Europe. Fabric prices comprise a high proportion of the cost for many off-the-rack clothes, since labor costs are so low in the countries where they're made.

Where I live in Hong Kong there are dozens of tailor's shops clustered into several neighborhoods - like this one, where 3 tailored shirts will cost about US $50 https://www.hokobuy.com/Experiences/Services/Tailor-custom-made-items/Suit-Shirt/Kahn-Tailor/3-TailorMade-Cotton-Shirts/p/10306701006C00000115A6WIAU on HK's Groupon site. Fabric makes up most of the cost since orders are made over the border in China.

dcheesi

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #108 on: June 11, 2018, 08:34:50 AM »
Every time I read about the pressure many women feel to spend oodles on their appearance I am so glad that I grew up in (and returned to) the hippie granola Pacific Northwest, and spent my career years in grad school and non-profits.  It let me get away with no makeup, no fancy hair stuff, no shaving (DH prefers), and a mostly casual wardrobe.  Also much less stress overall.

Amen to that. Visiting the east coast was a nightmare for me. I literally had a stranger in a grocery store ask me why I was wearing tennis shoes. Um... to have shoes on? And my friend who had moved there described me as "brave" for not wearing makeup. I'll stick to my crunchy granola hippy paradise filled with rain, TYVM. (Not that there's no pressure here, obviously, but it's easier to buck the more expensive trends of hair/makeup/botox)

Really? When living on the east coast (Boston) I was surprised how everyone seemed to go to work in their running shoes. Like not sneakers, but actual running shoes. I didn't mind, it totally fits my style and I happily picked up the habit, but that's not a normal thing in Europe :p

Also leggings everywhere. People that were certainly not going to the gym looked like they were on their way to the gym continuously..
There's a lot of variation between cities as well. Obviously New York City is going to have different standards than Atlanta; if nothing else, weather considerations are going to make a big difference, but the overall formality differs too. Even moving from central VA to the DC area, I notice a significant difference in standards of dress.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #109 on: June 11, 2018, 08:50:52 AM »
Every time I read about the pressure many women feel to spend oodles on their appearance I am so glad that I grew up in (and returned to) the hippie granola Pacific Northwest, and spent my career years in grad school and non-profits.  It let me get away with no makeup, no fancy hair stuff, no shaving (DH prefers), and a mostly casual wardrobe.  Also much less stress overall.

Amen to that. Visiting the east coast was a nightmare for me. I literally had a stranger in a grocery store ask me why I was wearing tennis shoes. Um... to have shoes on? And my friend who had moved there described me as "brave" for not wearing makeup. I'll stick to my crunchy granola hippy paradise filled with rain, TYVM. (Not that there's no pressure here, obviously, but it's easier to buck the more expensive trends of hair/makeup/botox)

Really? When living on the east coast (Boston) I was surprised how everyone seemed to go to work in their running shoes. Like not sneakers, but actual running shoes. I didn't mind, it totally fits my style and I happily picked up the habit, but that's not a normal thing in Europe :p

Also leggings everywhere. People that were certainly not going to the gym looked like they were on their way to the gym continuously..
There's a lot of variation between cities as well. Obviously New York City is going to have different standards than Atlanta; if nothing else, weather considerations are going to make a big difference, but the overall formality differs too. Even moving from central VA to the DC area, I notice a significant difference in standards of dress.

It was a city in Virginia where I had the comment about tennis shoes. On that same trip, any time my friend and I would try to get places walking, people would stop and ask if we needed a ride. So weird to me. People walk places in OR all the time, it was bizarre to have a bunch of people assume we were lost or wanted a ride trying to walk a mile to the grocery store or beach!

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2018, 08:52:10 AM »
My mom, my wife, and my wife's mom all sew.   

They made stylish clothes that fit them much better than store-bought ones for a fraction of the cost.

(No reason men can't sew also, though since our fashion needs are typically simpler, the opportunity cost of developing sewing skill doesn't get compensated for by as large a benefit.)

I do this too, but Iíve had to invest thousands in learning how, and Iím still only passably decent at it.
I would never be able to make suits, which both DH and I need for work.

Also, fabric is crazy expensive and it can easily end up more expensive than buying cheap clothes at discount stores. I cannot make clothes for cheaper than I can buy them at Costco, so I donít tend to make clothes from scratch, I learned to sew so that I could tailor my own clothes properly as I have an extremely hard time finding anything that fits off the rack.

Sewing has saved me a fortune in alteration costs, but not much in terms of actually buying clothes.

That logic doesn't make sense in the context of this thread.   Sorry.

Either

a) Clothes are horribly expensive for women because of "the pink tax" or,
b) Clothes are too inexpensive for sewing to save money.

Reminds me of this scene in Raising Arizona:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF9OLZKSC5k

There's a critical piece of data missing from your analysis:

(c) Compared to the price of clothing-- the contents of which are bought by the manufacturers in super-bulk quantities, and the labor costs for which are artificially low-- the price of fabric at retail prices is extremely high due to relatively low demand for it and the higher costs for distribution, storage, cutting, and wastage.

The economics of by-the-yard fabric production and distribution are different from the economics of clothing manufacture, and the difference is visible to the consumer at the till. If it were possible for an end consumer to buy fabric at the same price as Land's End, Brooks Brothers, etc. gets it, and to have a reasonable chance of getting product that resembles what they pay for and that will arrive in a reasonable time, then yes: sewing would be a big money-saver. Sadly the raw material cost, supply chain cost, and retail markup for fabric is huge.

dcheesi

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2018, 09:04:50 AM »
Every time I read about the pressure many women feel to spend oodles on their appearance I am so glad that I grew up in (and returned to) the hippie granola Pacific Northwest, and spent my career years in grad school and non-profits.  It let me get away with no makeup, no fancy hair stuff, no shaving (DH prefers), and a mostly casual wardrobe.  Also much less stress overall.

Amen to that. Visiting the east coast was a nightmare for me. I literally had a stranger in a grocery store ask me why I was wearing tennis shoes. Um... to have shoes on? And my friend who had moved there described me as "brave" for not wearing makeup. I'll stick to my crunchy granola hippy paradise filled with rain, TYVM. (Not that there's no pressure here, obviously, but it's easier to buck the more expensive trends of hair/makeup/botox)

Really? When living on the east coast (Boston) I was surprised how everyone seemed to go to work in their running shoes. Like not sneakers, but actual running shoes. I didn't mind, it totally fits my style and I happily picked up the habit, but that's not a normal thing in Europe :p

Also leggings everywhere. People that were certainly not going to the gym looked like they were on their way to the gym continuously..
There's a lot of variation between cities as well. Obviously New York City is going to have different standards than Atlanta; if nothing else, weather considerations are going to make a big difference, but the overall formality differs too. Even moving from central VA to the DC area, I notice a significant difference in standards of dress.

It was a city in Virginia where I had the comment about tennis shoes. On that same trip, any time my friend and I would try to get places walking, people would stop and ask if we needed a ride. So weird to me. People walk places in OR all the time, it was bizarre to have a bunch of people assume we were lost or wanted a ride trying to walk a mile to the grocery store or beach!
Interesting. Of course Northern VA is part of the DC area, but it sounds more like you were in a coastal area. I can't imagine people questioning athletic shoes in such an area, unless they're just worried about you getting sand in your shoes?

OTOH, the ride thing doesn't surprise me; I used to live close to work, but it was a treacherous walk due to lack of sidewalks, etc. Several times my coworkers stopped on the way home and asked if I needed help. The walking for health 'memo' hasn't reached all parts of the country yet, with the South being one of the last to pick it up. Plus points deeper South get so hot & humid in the summer that walking just isn't pleasant, so people aren't the habit of doing it.

SwordGuy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2018, 09:24:18 AM »
Hand sewn clothing by amateurs is unlikely to be practical for professionals who require a sharp, tailored look for work: big law, finance, etc particularly in the NE US and Europe. Fabric prices comprise a high proportion of the cost for many off-the-rack clothes, since labor costs are so low in the countries where they're made.


If you're working in big law or big finance, you're presumably making big bucks, so the cost of a good quality wardrobe should be of no particular importance.

I spent several thousand dollars putting together a wardrobe with really nice quality suits, shirts, ties, shoes, etc., before I went off to Ethiopia to work with their government for a year.   I was also making $120k.   Those clothes lasted for years.   Even a conservative reckoning would put my professional clothing cost at less than $1,200 a year.    Not chump change, but go out and ask how many people would be willing to cough up $1,200 to $2,000 a year for clothes to make $120k a year.  You'll find out that damn near all of them making less than that will say, "Hell, yes!"

For those making 2 to 3 times that amount, 2 to 3 times that amount for clothes is still of no particular consequence.

As a programmer, I didn't pay a lot for my wardrobe but I did spend $1,200 to $2,000 a year on computer publications and software tools.   No different than a mechanic's set of tools.  Just a cost of doing business.

But that's not what this thread was about.    It's about regular folks with regular wages buying decent looking clothes.

Don't confuse the two situations.  It just leads to muddled logic.

And, since the folks refuting my suggestion to learn to sew seem to feel that it's possible to get inexpensive clothing, then that makes the portion of this thread complaining about how much women HAVE to pay for clothing wrong.   They don't HAVE to do that.  They CHOOSE to do that.  And because so many women CHOOSE to pay more for clothes, manufacturers CHOOSE to supply those garments at a price the market will bear.

As one person said so aptly, it's possible for men to get a $5000 tuxedo and for brides to get a $20 dress from the thrift store to get married in and most don't.   It's clearly a matter of personal choice that people don't make those choices.


patchyfacialhair

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2018, 09:52:26 AM »
(cut out some stuff)

And, since the folks refuting my suggestion to learn to sew seem to feel that it's possible to get inexpensive clothing, then that makes the portion of this thread complaining about how much women HAVE to pay for clothing wrong.   They don't HAVE to do that.  They CHOOSE to do that.  And because so many women CHOOSE to pay more for clothes, manufacturers CHOOSE to supply those garments at a price the market will bear.

As one person said so aptly, it's possible for men to get a $5000 tuxedo and for brides to get a $20 dress from the thrift store to get married in and most don't.   It's clearly a matter of personal choice that people don't make those choices.

Well said (credit to @Chris22 for the tux comment) It's easier to blame "society" or "patriarchy" rather than take accountability for your own actions. My wife works beside folks with brand new cars and designer wardrobes, while she rarely buys clothes (maybe $200/year) and uses minimal makeup (mostly face lotion and on occasion some foundation plus cheap mascara) and drives a 15 year old worthless car (on paper). She very much has a client facing role full of old school finance type guys, and it hasn't hurt her thus far. She keeps moving up due to the quality of her work.

I hope that she instills those same values in our daughter. Not in the sense that I hope that she's just like her mom, but more in the sense that she should live life on her own terms and be happy with it. If she's a girly girl, by all means. If she's a tomboy, have fun. But don't go blaming society or patriarchy for choices she can make herself.

For what it's worth, other than feminine required products, everything else we shop for is based on its merits: a "men's" razor is cheaper than a "woman's". We buy the men's and share the pack. I bought a $2 pink hammer for our house because I needed to hang pictures, not do major work, and it was far cheaper than the normal $5 option. So, now I have a "girly" hammer. Whatever.

Chris22

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2018, 09:58:53 AM »
I bought a $2 pink hammer for our house because I needed to hang pictures, not do major work, and it was far cheaper than the normal $5 option. So, now I have a "girly" hammer. Whatever.

I have a rolling toolchest full of tools, some bought, some gifted, handmedowns, whatever.  Lots of tools.

The tool I use the most?  The $3 pink and purple flowered screwdriver my wife got in her Christmas stocking one year, because it's in the drawer inside the house so whenever I am doing a quick job (i.e., replacing batteries in kids' toys) it's the most convenient to grab.

MgoSam

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2018, 10:00:00 AM »
I bought a $2 pink hammer for our house because I needed to hang pictures, not do major work, and it was far cheaper than the normal $5 option. So, now I have a "girly" hammer. Whatever.

On the plus side if a neighbor borrows it you'll be sure he brings it back right away or the least doesn't hoard it.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2018, 10:10:08 AM »
@Chris22, @patchyfacialhair, you are aware that your boasting of your gender liberation, while also carefully explaining to a bunch of women how their world works? Right? Bueller? Anyone?

expatartist

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #117 on: June 11, 2018, 10:21:01 AM »
My response was not confusing two situations, it's stating your solution of women sewing their own clothes is not ok for most professional work situations - particularly those where clothes need to be durable. I have friends who like to sew handmade dresses and to me they look cheap - usually it's because the fabric available at stores is mediocre quality, their seams aren't great, and can't compare to that used in high street or designer clothes I can purchase on ThredUp for $20.

In my industry (the arts) we can supposedly wear whatever we want - with allowances for the conservative culture I live in where anything close to cleavage is uncool but you can show as much leg as you like. I always dress a level or two higher than is required (though likely at 20% the price of my colleagues), and it increases the perception of my professionalism vs those who dress frumpily. There's not an overt expectation that we dress well, but it's noted and is influential in how we're perceived. This has been the case in the 8 countries I've worked in.

Most of my clothes are secondhand and cost max US$10-15. As a 'regular sized' woman (US size 8) it's easier for me to find clothes that fit. Fabrics are typically cashmere, silk, linen, quality synthetics etc that flatter and perform well in SE Asian heat. A few are very expensive from companies and communities I like to support. Some of my clothes are tailored from silk patterned from my artwork, one was hundreds of $ - those are advertising.

Different women go about things differently. As was stated several times upthread, the stats in the original post are wrong.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2018, 10:29:28 AM »
@Chris22, @patchyfacialhair, you are aware that your boasting of your gender liberation, while also carefully explaining to a bunch of women how their world works? Right? Bueller? Anyone?

Something something...mansplaining? Do I win?

Oh come on. Everyone has their own set of challenges. Yes, my wife has complained to me that she can say something to someone and get crickets or negativity, while I can say literally the same words and get a different result. She gets to benefit from the fact that if she wanted to accuse me of violence or other bad stuff, I'd most certainly be removed without a shred of proof. Neither of those are fair, but it is what it is.

The only constant? We all have the ability to make our own choices. Please don't extend that sentence into a "bootstrap" thing. I get that some have it harder than others. Complaining about it does nothing. Vote with your wallet and buy the men's razors and narrow that quarter million dollar lifetime number a little bit.

M.patron

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2018, 12:48:01 PM »
(cut out some stuff)

And, since the folks refuting my suggestion to learn to sew seem to feel that it's possible to get inexpensive clothing, then that makes the portion of this thread complaining about how much women HAVE to pay for clothing wrong.   They don't HAVE to do that.  They CHOOSE to do that.  And because so many women CHOOSE to pay more for clothes, manufacturers CHOOSE to supply those garments at a price the market will bear.

As one person said so aptly, it's possible for men to get a $5000 tuxedo and for brides to get a $20 dress from the thrift store to get married in and most don't.   It's clearly a matter of personal choice that people don't make those choices.

Well said (credit to @Chris22 for the tux comment) It's easier to blame "society" or "patriarchy" rather than take accountability for your own actions. My wife works beside folks with brand new cars and designer wardrobes, while she rarely buys clothes (maybe $200/year) and uses minimal makeup (mostly face lotion and on occasion some foundation plus cheap mascara) and drives a 15 year old worthless car (on paper). She very much has a client facing role full of old school finance type guys, and it hasn't hurt her thus far. She keeps moving up due to the quality of her work.

I hope that she instills those same values in our daughter. Not in the sense that I hope that she's just like her mom, but more in the sense that she should live life on her own terms and be happy with it. If she's a girly girl, by all means. If she's a tomboy, have fun. But don't go blaming society or patriarchy for choices she can make herself.

For what it's worth, other than feminine required products, everything else we shop for is based on its merits: a "men's" razor is cheaper than a "woman's". We buy the men's and share the pack. I bought a $2 pink hammer for our house because I needed to hang pictures, not do major work, and it was far cheaper than the normal $5 option. So, now I have a "girly" hammer. Whatever.
So, to have the same job as a man and have the same salary and opportunities, I have to take lessons to sew my own clothes, buy a sewing machine and sew during the week-end if I want to have the same saving rate as him?



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mm1970

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2018, 01:05:24 PM »
Grim Squeaker, when you want to hit the barricades, let me know.  I have a lousy throwing arm but I can hand you the bottles and light the fuses.

You know what fills my personal rage bucket with napalm? It's the number of fucking stupid uniform shoes I'm required to own. Steel toed boots, black oxfords and white oxfords for the pants uniforms, black pumps and white pumps for the skirt variation of the same uniforms, black heels and white heels for the white tie uniforms. Seven. SEVEN pairs of uniform shoes, and 4 of the pairs are stupid.

The guys have 3 pairs. None of them are stupid. This idiocy leaps straight over the cunt tax and bounds into straight forward cunt highway robbery
I don't miss that part in the slightest!!  Plus whites, khakis, blues, dress blues - pants and skirts in each combo of course.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2018, 01:11:11 PM »
(cut out some stuff)

And, since the folks refuting my suggestion to learn to sew seem to feel that it's possible to get inexpensive clothing, then that makes the portion of this thread complaining about how much women HAVE to pay for clothing wrong.   They don't HAVE to do that.  They CHOOSE to do that.  And because so many women CHOOSE to pay more for clothes, manufacturers CHOOSE to supply those garments at a price the market will bear.

As one person said so aptly, it's possible for men to get a $5000 tuxedo and for brides to get a $20 dress from the thrift store to get married in and most don't.   It's clearly a matter of personal choice that people don't make those choices.

Well said (credit to @Chris22 for the tux comment) It's easier to blame "society" or "patriarchy" rather than take accountability for your own actions. My wife works beside folks with brand new cars and designer wardrobes, while she rarely buys clothes (maybe $200/year) and uses minimal makeup (mostly face lotion and on occasion some foundation plus cheap mascara) and drives a 15 year old worthless car (on paper). She very much has a client facing role full of old school finance type guys, and it hasn't hurt her thus far. She keeps moving up due to the quality of her work.

I hope that she instills those same values in our daughter. Not in the sense that I hope that she's just like her mom, but more in the sense that she should live life on her own terms and be happy with it. If she's a girly girl, by all means. If she's a tomboy, have fun. But don't go blaming society or patriarchy for choices she can make herself.

For what it's worth, other than feminine required products, everything else we shop for is based on its merits: a "men's" razor is cheaper than a "woman's". We buy the men's and share the pack. I bought a $2 pink hammer for our house because I needed to hang pictures, not do major work, and it was far cheaper than the normal $5 option. So, now I have a "girly" hammer. Whatever.
So, to have the same job as a man and have the same salary and opportunities, I have to take lessons to sew my own clothes, buy a sewing machine and sew during the week-end if I want to have the same saving rate as him?



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Hi there, welcome to the forums.

I'm not sure how you're making those connections. I never said anything like what you've posted, so I'm not sure what to say about your assertion that anyone has to make their own clothes to make the same as a man.

If my daughter wants a high paying job, I'm going to suggest she go into STEM or the medical field or perhaps finance if she gets into a top university. All those will require diligent and consistent hard work on her part, so if she goes that direction, it'll be because she wants to. If her passion is women's studies or underwater basket weaving, sure, go for it, but don't complain later when your income isn't as high as the engineer or business professional.

I'll also make her aware that men sometimes have an "easier" time moving up the career ladder because they have the support of a woman with a less demanding job or no job at home, so she'll be competing with that. It won't meant to be discouraging (hopefully), but will hopefully make her aware that she will have unique challenges because of her gender. Nothing wrong with that.

I guess I'm trying to say that I hope that she owns her choices when she's grown up. That's all. Coming up with absurd suggestions like making her own clothes or whatever you're trying to say isn't at all what I'm getting at.

mm1970

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #122 on: June 11, 2018, 01:24:12 PM »
Quote
(c) Compared to the price of clothing-- the contents of which are bought by the manufacturers in super-bulk quantities, and the labor costs for which are artificially low-- the price of fabric at retail prices is extremely high due to relatively low demand for it and the higher costs for distribution, storage, cutting, and wastage.

The economics of by-the-yard fabric production and distribution are different from the economics of clothing manufacture, and the difference is visible to the consumer at the till. If it were possible for an end consumer to buy fabric at the same price as Land's End, Brooks Brothers, etc. gets it, and to have a reasonable chance of getting product that resembles what they pay for and that will arrive in a reasonable time, then yes: sewing would be a big money-saver. Sadly the raw material cost, supply chain cost, and retail markup for fabric is huge.

Grim hits the nail on the head.

I can sew - I made a dress or two back in the day, but mostly I stick to flat things like quilts and curtains.  I have been unable to make suitable clothing at home that is of good quality, and that fits, for a reasonable price.

- first, the quality fabric is going to cost a lot more money if you are buying it yourself.  (Side note, my sister was in textiles for decades, she spent the last 10 years working herself out of a job as all manufacturing was moved overseas).

- second, it does take quite a long time of practice to get good at it - and you might never get good at it.  I have a friend who is fantastic at making clothing - she's in her 70s and has been making clothing for 50 years.  Same with  my aunt.  Another friend was profiled in a national article in the newspaper for making dresses for her daughter - but what SHE noted (10 years ago) was that it was only really cost-effective if you were trying for high end and fancy - in her case, a confirmation dress.  This friend had been making clothing for 15 years by then and didn't have a full time job on the side.

Now, in my very limited experience (because I'm an engineer and I wear jeans to work), where you can really make it happen is thrift stores, and learning how to alter clothing.  I have a small waist and bigger hips - I've found tutorials on things such at how to lengthen a skirt, or how to sew in an adjustable elastic waistband (like are in kids' jeans) into my own clothing.  You can find used quality items that fit.   Especially if you are good at hemming, because I'm not even 5'3". 

OtherJen

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #123 on: June 11, 2018, 01:26:58 PM »
Quote
(c) Compared to the price of clothing-- the contents of which are bought by the manufacturers in super-bulk quantities, and the labor costs for which are artificially low-- the price of fabric at retail prices is extremely high due to relatively low demand for it and the higher costs for distribution, storage, cutting, and wastage.

The economics of by-the-yard fabric production and distribution are different from the economics of clothing manufacture, and the difference is visible to the consumer at the till. If it were possible for an end consumer to buy fabric at the same price as Land's End, Brooks Brothers, etc. gets it, and to have a reasonable chance of getting product that resembles what they pay for and that will arrive in a reasonable time, then yes: sewing would be a big money-saver. Sadly the raw material cost, supply chain cost, and retail markup for fabric is huge.

Grim hits the nail on the head.

I can sew - I made a dress or two back in the day, but mostly I stick to flat things like quilts and curtains.  I have been unable to make suitable clothing at home that is of good quality, and that fits, for a reasonable price.

- first, the quality fabric is going to cost a lot more money if you are buying it yourself.  (Side note, my sister was in textiles for decades, she spent the last 10 years working herself out of a job as all manufacturing was moved overseas).

- second, it does take quite a long time of practice to get good at it - and you might never get good at it.  I have a friend who is fantastic at making clothing - she's in her 70s and has been making clothing for 50 years.  Same with  my aunt.  Another friend was profiled in a national article in the newspaper for making dresses for her daughter - but what SHE noted (10 years ago) was that it was only really cost-effective if you were trying for high end and fancy - in her case, a confirmation dress.  This friend had been making clothing for 15 years by then and didn't have a full time job on the side.

Now, in my very limited experience (because I'm an engineer and I wear jeans to work), where you can really make it happen is thrift stores, and learning how to alter clothing.  I have a small waist and bigger hips - I've found tutorials on things such at how to lengthen a skirt, or how to sew in an adjustable elastic waistband (like are in kids' jeans) into my own clothing.  You can find used quality items that fit.   Especially if you are good at hemming, because I'm not even 5'3".

There's also a significant time cost associated with handmade clothing. I've started knitting my own sweaters because I find it enjoyable, but it's a big time sink and not particularly cost-efficient.

Chris22

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #124 on: June 11, 2018, 01:35:48 PM »
@Chris22, @patchyfacialhair, you are aware that your boasting of your gender liberation, while also carefully explaining to a bunch of women how their world works? Right? Bueller? Anyone?

Something something...mansplaining? Do I win?

Oh come on. Everyone has their own set of challenges. Yes, my wife has complained to me that she can say something to someone and get crickets or negativity, while I can say literally the same words and get a different result. She gets to benefit from the fact that if she wanted to accuse me of violence or other bad stuff, I'd most certainly be removed without a shred of proof. Neither of those are fair, but it is what it is.

The only constant? We all have the ability to make our own choices. Please don't extend that sentence into a "bootstrap" thing. I get that some have it harder than others. Complaining about it does nothing. Vote with your wallet and buy the men's razors and narrow that quarter million dollar lifetime number a little bit.

At the end of the day, simple economics tells us that women's clothing is more expensive than men's simply because women will pay it. 

deborah

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2018, 01:38:09 PM »
As someone who has lived for longer than many of the protagonists here, has made all her own clothes for many years, and has pursued a fashion degree after I retired (I am FIRE, and of course, the fashion degree included the economics of fashion) I think I have something to add to this argument.

Firstly, the womanís body is a different shape to the manís, and a shapely garment needs somewhat more labor to produce. As a result, clothing for women is inherently somewhat more expensive.

Secondly, throughout my life, the price of clothing has reduced enormously, due to free trade and the reduction in tariffs throughout the world. This has moved the production of clothing and material to third world nations where wages are much cheaper. It has also meant that people have enormous wardrobes compared to their size in my youth. When I was young, it was rare for people to have more than three working day outfits for a particular season. People saved up for weeks for a winter coat. People spent a much higher percentage of their income on clothing than they do now. All people, not just women.

Thirdly, for a long time, womenís clothing has been intrinsically more expensive than menís. The garments are made of more flimsy materials that last for a shorter time. The garments have less utility (for instance womenís garments tend to lack pockets, whereas menís garments have them), so to buy the same level of utility and durability, women need to buy a garment made at a higher price point than men do. Consequently, women need to pay more. The fashion industry knows it can charge more for womenís garments and does so.

Fourthly, because of the world wide reduction of tariffs and charges over the past 30 years, and the offshoring of the fashion industry, any person making their own clothes in a developed economy is going to be making clothes at the costs that one off bespoke types of pieces command. This means that women who try to make their own clothes are simply not able to do so for anywhere near the cost of ready to wear. To imply that they can is simply displaying ones ignorance of the fashion industry and of world economy. Moreover, some fabrics and finishes are not readily available to the home sewer, and these generally include items used in more expensive garments - including bras - which have more margin, and could be cheaper (but more time consuming) to make in the home.

SwordGuy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #126 on: June 11, 2018, 01:59:53 PM »
Dang.   This is reminding me of some of the case studies where people just can't can't CAN'T accept that three fancy vehicles, a fancy boat, and a really fancy house are not the minimal level of expense that someone can barely survive at.

If you are in a high paying job that requires nice clothes, then buy the clothes and quit crying about it.  You can afford it.
And while you're buying them, be smart about it, and you'll spend a lot less.

If you're not in such a job, then you just need to dress well.  "One notch better than average" isn't a bad measuring stick if you want to stick out as stylish or feel it matters to your promotional potential.   Again, that can, in most professions and companies, be done in an affordable manner with a reasonable amount of effort.   Or it can be done very expensively.   Your choice.  Choose wisely.

I just read a comment where sewing wasn't an option because one could buy a good shirt for $20.   Well, hell, then why are people bitching about the cost of clothing?  Unless someone sets out to be the Imelda Marcos of tops, you can get 2 work week's worth of tops for $200. For anyone in a job that pays middle class wages this isn't horribly expensive.  (For the younger crowd, Imelda Marcos was the wife of the president of the Philipines, and owned thousands of pairs of expensive shoes.) 

I'm just not buying the scenario being presented, that women can't get adequately clothed for a reasonable cost.   Too many women are giving too many examples of reasonably priced clothing.

As for sewing, the ability to sew can enable someone to buy a garment on sale that isn't a perfect fit and make it a perfect fit.  It widens options.   This isn't an either-or suggestion.   One does not have to sew 100% of one's garments.  Just use the skill where it makes sense.   For example, I use it to make leather tools or protective garments because it's very cost effective for me, in my life situation, for those goals.    It would be great for some people, worthless for others.   Poo-pooing it for everyone because it doesn't meet one person's needs is silliness.   It's as foolish as a person with vertigo claiming no one should buy a ladder for do-it-yourself work around the house because it won't help them in their life circumstances.


ElleFiji

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #127 on: June 11, 2018, 02:29:05 PM »
Dang.   This is reminding me of some of the case studies where people just can't can't CAN'T accept that three fancy vehicles, a fancy boat, and a really fancy house are not the minimal level of expense that someone can barely survive at.

If you are in a high paying job that requires nice clothes, then buy the clothes and quit crying about it.  You can afford it.
And while you're buying them, be smart about it, and you'll spend a lot less.

If you're not in such a job, then you just need to dress well.  "One notch better than average" isn't a bad measuring stick if you want to stick out as stylish or feel it matters to your promotional potential.   Again, that can, in most professions and companies, be done in an affordable manner with a reasonable amount of effort.   Or it can be done very expensively.   Your choice.  Choose wisely.

I just read a comment where sewing wasn't an option because one could buy a good shirt for $20.   Well, hell, then why are people bitching about the cost of clothing?  Unless someone sets out to be the Imelda Marcos of tops, you can get 2 work week's worth of tops for $200. For anyone in a job that pays middle class wages this isn't horribly expensive.  (For the younger crowd, Imelda Marcos was the wife of the president of the Philipines, and owned thousands of pairs of expensive shoes.) 

I'm just not buying the scenario being presented, that women can't get adequately clothed for a reasonable cost.   Too many women are giving too many examples of reasonably priced clothing.

As for sewing, the ability to sew can enable someone to buy a garment on sale that isn't a perfect fit and make it a perfect fit.  It widens options.   This isn't an either-or suggestion.   One does not have to sew 100% of one's garments.  Just use the skill where it makes sense.   For example, I use it to make leather tools or protective garments because it's very cost effective for me, in my life situation, for those goals.    It would be great for some people, worthless for others.   Poo-pooing it for everyone because it doesn't meet one person's needs is silliness.   It's as foolish as a person with vertigo claiming no one should buy a ladder for do-it-yourself work around the house because it won't help them in their life circumstances.

Except the post started because someone found an article noting that this trend has been observed and they are surprised. And the majority of responses from forumers was that they don't, but can easily understand how and why people do.

If we look at gender as performance, and I tend to do so, then gender performance is more or less successful according to how well you conform to a theoretical idea of how your gender acts. As a femme female, I note that there are a number of markets that display the quality of a woman's performance of her gender. Women may choose to participate in the action for personal satisfaction, personal and workplace relations, career success, or any of a myriad of other choices. They may also choose to opt out. However, when you opt out of gendered trappings, you undeniably make life harder for yourself. I applaud the women who find that the personal benefit of opting out is worth more than the crappy treatment they risk by opting out.

One of the handiest trappings that you can employ to safely act out gender, is a spouse of the opposite gender. My people have known for millennia that this is hands down the safest, easiest choice. Plus, if you get one of those little accessories then you can opt out of icky stuff like high heels, long hair and make-up, and still be living up to gendered expectations. Not only that, but spouses are money savers.

The other key pieces can vary a bit by gender - long hair is generally a winner, but there are usually some short cuts that you can do too. Feminine, career specific clothes, shoes and makeup are all useful.

And the easiest way to play your gender correctly, especially if you aren't passionate about the trappings, is to throw some fucking money at it.

If you like doing your hair and make-up (I do) then you can do it all for cheap. If you like sewing, you can make your own clothes, although this might not be workplace appropriate or save you money (I don't but want to). If you like living with men, you can just get hitched (I don't). If you like jewelry and purses, buy them (I do purses with my backpack). If you like shoes, do them.

By all means it's a choice, but don't pretend that the choice is consequence neutral.

diapasoun

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #128 on: June 11, 2018, 02:49:46 PM »
OP created a thread about the apparent heavy cost difference in men's spending and women's spending on their appearances over time.

What almost all of the posters here have been getting at is:

(a) they don't spend nearly as much as the folks cited in the original article
(b) but they understand/are trying to understand how some women get there
(c) especially since a woman's grooming is more important to their income than a man's grooming is
(d) and many women buy products branded for women, which are typically more expensive than products produced for men
(e) and lots of women are just plain spendy, just like lots of men are just plain spendy.

The people posting here are talking about how they economize their spending on appearance, especially when working within the constraints of a world where women are expected to pay way more attention to their appearance than men do, and are expected to pay more for identical beauty products than men do. I don't think a single person posting here thinks it's reasonable to spend $250/month on their appearance, but they want to understand how and why we get this gendered difference in spending.

Somehow it seems to me that I can both buy cheaper men's razors and also get really ticked at a corporate world that is intentionally charging women more. Somehow it seems to me that I can say "fuck highlighter and eyeliner" and still get really pissed that I'm expected to have any opinions about highlighter or eyeliner at all, and that I'm going to get judged about those opinions.

(I should note that I'm also pissed that men don't get to use makeup without repercussions, including violence, or that they have a narrower variety of clothing and product options available to them, and on and on. I'm pissed that attractive people of whatever gender are treated better than less attractive people. But that's a different conversation from the one directly related to OP's article.)

StarBright

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #129 on: June 11, 2018, 03:08:19 PM »

By all means it's a choice, but don't pretend that the choice is consequence neutral.

^This! Bravo

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #130 on: June 11, 2018, 03:25:58 PM »
OP created a thread about the apparent heavy cost difference in men's spending and women's spending on their appearances over time.

What almost all of the posters here have been getting at is:

(a) they don't spend nearly as much as the folks cited in the original article
(b) but they understand/are trying to understand how some women get there
(c) especially since a woman's grooming is more important to their income than a man's grooming is
(d) and many women buy products branded for women, which are typically more expensive than products produced for men
(e) and lots of women are just plain spendy, just like lots of men are just plain spendy.

The people posting here are talking about how they economize their spending on appearance, especially when working within the constraints of a world where women are expected to pay way more attention to their appearance than men do, and are expected to pay more for identical beauty products than men do. I don't think a single person posting here thinks it's reasonable to spend $250/month on their appearance, but they want to understand how and why we get this gendered difference in spending.

Somehow it seems to me that I can both buy cheaper men's razors and also get really ticked at a corporate world that is intentionally charging women more. Somehow it seems to me that I can say "fuck highlighter and eyeliner" and still get really pissed that I'm expected to have any opinions about highlighter or eyeliner at all, and that I'm going to get judged about those opinions.

(I should note that I'm also pissed that men don't get to use makeup without repercussions, including violence, or that they have a narrower variety of clothing and product options available to them, and on and on. I'm pissed that attractive people of whatever gender are treated better than less attractive people. But that's a different conversation from the one directly related to OP's article.)

... and (f) the default/acceptable/mainstream choice for men happens to be cheaper in terms of both money and effort, whereas the default/acceptable/mainstream choice for women requires significant additional time, or money, or both.

galliver

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2018, 04:32:36 PM »
OP created a thread about the apparent heavy cost difference in men's spending and women's spending on their appearances over time.

What almost all of the posters here have been getting at is:

(a) they don't spend nearly as much as the folks cited in the original article
(b) but they understand/are trying to understand how some women get there
(c) especially since a woman's grooming is more important to their income than a man's grooming is
(d) and many women buy products branded for women, which are typically more expensive than products produced for men
(e) and lots of women are just plain spendy, just like lots of men are just plain spendy.

The people posting here are talking about how they economize their spending on appearance, especially when working within the constraints of a world where women are expected to pay way more attention to their appearance than men do, and are expected to pay more for identical beauty products than men do. I don't think a single person posting here thinks it's reasonable to spend $250/month on their appearance, but they want to understand how and why we get this gendered difference in spending.

Somehow it seems to me that I can both buy cheaper men's razors and also get really ticked at a corporate world that is intentionally charging women more. Somehow it seems to me that I can say "fuck highlighter and eyeliner" and still get really pissed that I'm expected to have any opinions about highlighter or eyeliner at all, and that I'm going to get judged about those opinions.

(I should note that I'm also pissed that men don't get to use makeup without repercussions, including violence, or that they have a narrower variety of clothing and product options available to them, and on and on. I'm pissed that attractive people of whatever gender are treated better than less attractive people. But that's a different conversation from the one directly related to OP's article.)

So well stated!

---

"Opting out" of the trappings of femininity may be an option for some; opting out of being judged for it, or feeling judged for it, and the consequences thereof are not a choice we get to make.  The consequences of being judged may differ based on genetics/natural appearance, personality, chosen field of work/study, dating situation, etc. but very few can avoid them completely, their whole lives. The specifics will vary: maybe one woman can't do without mascara without being seen as unwell; another has trouble finding inexpensive clothes that look professional, another has to wear heels in her industry (and yes, maybe she can afford those heels, but why does her male coworker not have to choose between painless shoes and career success?) As @diapasoun wonderfully stated: it's not that we all do each these things and spend $50k more than men over a lifetime. It's that we have all encountered *ASPECTS* of the problem that we can relate to, so that we can see how someone *CAN* rack up those bills. Furthermore, we can absolutely sympathize with the fact that men face certain inconvenient and uncomfortable standards as well (e.g. wearing suits in hot, humid summers, or not having the option to tweak their appearance and tame self-consciousness about imperfections). Our calling out the ridiculous standards we have to navigate in no way lessens that.

I'm a grad student in engineering. Most days, I wear jeans and t-shirts or similar casual wear. Today my feet are rocking Chacos. I've recently started using neutrally scented men's deodorant. But I have fine hair that tends to frizz and an oily scalp that never accepted "no-(sham)poo" regimens. I spend $7/quart on cleansing conditioner and prob $5/mo on leave in product that makes my hair manageable and look socially acceptable. I could cut it short, but it wouldn't work well with my face shape...it would make me look more masculine and older. I have a suit for interviews, and slacks and blouses/button downs for conferences. I'll also wear light/natural makeup on those occasions because I don't want blemishes on my appearance to distract from my competence (or detract from my confidence!). Shoes. Shoes are hard. Flats and heels actually hurt the same amount after a full day on your feet...you need *structure*. In this field I can definitely get away with "masculine" shoes, but try finding a pair of plain oxfords in women's size 6.5 (men's 4-4.5) that aren't made with the crummy materials and workmanship of kids shoes! I managed to score some at Ross for $50, but they were light grey which didn't quite work with my darker suits...years later I found a shoe repair shop with excellent reviews that dyed leather and suede and took the risk for either $20 or $30...now I have excellent shoes. Though, when I'm actually presenting, my 5'3" self likes the extra height of a heel...fortunately, I recently discovered ankle boots, although they're a bit warm in summer.

So...basically even opting out is hard, logistically. "Just buy men's" doesn't really fly when our bodies are literally built differently. My bf and I have the same chest measurement, but his rain jacket doesn't zip over my hips and the sleeves on my fleece end up comically short on him. It didn't sit well with my feminist ways but I've found much better fit when I started looking at women-specific gear: bikes, backpacking packs, sleeping bags. Not quite relevant to the "appearance" aspect of the thread but the same definitely holds for clothes and such.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2018, 09:57:29 PM »
What would y'all think if I told you the last man I dated didn't shave his legs, OR his armpits?

You think I'm weird, because of course he didn't. Why would I even mention that?

What if I told you that the last woman I dated didn't shave her legs, OR her armpits?

Gross. Hippie.

Even if you're okay with it, you're probably still surprised.

The "default" woman requires more work than the "default" man. That work can be reflected in time or money, but it's gonna come from somewhere. Many of us on the boards are not "default" anything and do not spend the kind of money other people do. But if you have more average consumers, the women have a lot more temptation and pressure to spend money on their appearance compared to the men. Regardless of how valid the numbers in this particular survey are, I can see many reasons for a differential.

Some men seem to have zeroed in on clothing, and in particular outerwear, while that is only one tree in the forest. Maybe because for men, that is the only tree?

Someone posted in the beginning that there are a ton of factors that affect women more. Bras, more complex body shapes, shoddier construction, more options >> more temptation (and more confusion/false starts), jewelry and accessories, hair care, hair removal, skin care, makeup, plastic surgery. Sure, you can go without. When you do, you risk paying a price. Men can go without and do not pay a price.

Even if some things don't matter as much as women are told they do, we are still told they matter. For example, variety of clothing. You can choose to risk it, but you have to fight cultural messaging. Men do not have to fight the messaging in the first place. And in some cases, defying those cultural expectations does matter.

OtherJen

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2018, 10:11:54 PM »
In all the discussion about sewing and the ďpink taxĒ, has anyone mentioned menstrual supplies? In addition to bras, thatís an expense that is both woman-specific and absolutely necessary. I use reusable cloth pads and inexpensive tampons (the cups donít work for me and yes, Iíve tried different types), but Iím in year 28 of having to purchase these supplies and it does add up. These products  would never even be on my husbandís radar if he didnít see the box of tampons in the bathroom once a month.

Iím not whining or complainingóit is what it isóbut thatís another line item to consider in the cost differential.

SwordGuy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #134 on: June 11, 2018, 10:33:07 PM »
So, it appears that quite a few folks ARE in agreement that spending large sums of money on clothes for most people in most jobs is not required, and that far more Mustachian choices are available.

Good. 

Because that's what I've been saying all along.

=================

Now that that's settled, if we want to get into whether it's fair or not that there are double standards for the different genders, we can.

There ARE double standards.  No ifs, ands or buts.   There just are.

It IS NOT fair.   Period. 

See, that was easy.

===========================

In the western world, in most circumstances, being female is a disadvantage.   In the rest of the world it's more of a curse.

In the entire world, in most circumstances, being male is an advantage.

That's just plain true.   Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.




RetiredAt63

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #135 on: June 12, 2018, 06:40:44 AM »

In the western world, in most circumstances, being female is a disadvantage.   In the rest of the world it's more of a curse.

In the entire world, in most circumstances, being male is an advantage.

That's just plain true.   Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.

Oh we've noticed, believe us.

mm1970

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #136 on: June 12, 2018, 09:11:53 AM »

In the western world, in most circumstances, being female is a disadvantage.   In the rest of the world it's more of a curse.

In the entire world, in most circumstances, being male is an advantage.

That's just plain true.   Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.

Oh we've noticed, believe us.
Duh.

mm1970

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #137 on: June 12, 2018, 09:15:17 AM »
Has anyone else noted the disadvantage of needing more clothing simply by being female?

Firstly, my weight fluctuates monthly by about 5 lbs, so I need different pants for different days from the bloating. 

Secondly, I've given birth twice.  In the last 12 years, my non-pregnant weight has had a span of 40 pounds from lowest to highest.  It took 2+ years to lose the baby weight, meaning extra clothing to "get by".  Twice.  Of course, things don't end where the started.  First pregnancy ended with even wider hips, second ended with wider shoulders and ribcage.

I get that Americans in general are gaining weight, but our clothing has much less flexibility.

Just Joe

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #138 on: June 12, 2018, 10:37:18 AM »
I see a business opportunity - making women's clothes that meets its buyer's expectation - - - but has pockets. Maybe someone ought to call one of the troubled mall retailers and throw them a bone... ;)

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #139 on: June 12, 2018, 10:47:23 AM »
On the other hand, regarding gender expense inequalities, guys are generally expected to spend more on women than visa versa. Diamonds for Valentines day, expensive meals for Mothers' day, surprise getaways for birthdays, and for Christmas a shiny new luxury SUV with a big red bow! I feel kinda sorry for the boys in this respect, it's a lot of pressure.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #140 on: June 12, 2018, 11:36:52 AM »
On the other hand, regarding gender expense inequalities, guys are generally expected to spend more on women than visa versa. Diamonds for Valentines day, expensive meals for Mothers' day, surprise getaways for birthdays, and for Christmas a shiny new luxury SUV with a big red bow! I feel kinda sorry for the boys in this respect, it's a lot of pressure.

I actually LIKE giving gifts to my wife.   

But buying really expensive items like a car that will be used by her without her input in the choice?   That's just foolishness.

But as a guy I'm expected to actually give a damn about collegiate and professional sports and, what's worse, participate in the endless discussions on same.   I just plain didn't.  Didn't give a damn and wasn't going to pretend I did.   It stunted promotional opportunities into the higher management ranks.  That was fine by me.  Thank God I'm now FIRED and don't ever, ever have to spend hour upon hour, workday upon workday listening to that drivel anymore.

SwordGuy

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #141 on: June 12, 2018, 11:38:54 AM »

In the western world, in most circumstances, being female is a disadvantage.   In the rest of the world it's more of a curse.

In the entire world, in most circumstances, being male is an advantage.

That's just plain true.   Anyone who thinks differently hasn't been paying attention.

Oh we've noticed, believe us.
Duh.

Well, I included that so I didn't have to (falsely) get shit on for not understanding that.

So, now I get to be shit on for showing I understand it.

Have a nice day.   

diapasoun

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #142 on: June 12, 2018, 11:53:51 AM »
@SwordGuy, I wanted to say that I very much appreciated your post -- it means a lot to me to have men see what's going on, and articulate it. Please don't leave the conversation! We don't continue to learn and grow if we don't keep butting up against each other. :)

I feel like this thread can so accurately be summed up as "societal pressures blow, goddamn it sucks to be punished for being yourself."



Dabnasty

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #143 on: June 12, 2018, 12:01:52 PM »
@SwordGuy, I wanted to say that I very much appreciated your post -- it means a lot to me to have men see what's going on, and articulate it. Please don't leave the conversation! We don't continue to learn and grow if we don't keep butting up against each other. :)

I feel like this thread can so accurately be summed up as "societal pressures blow, goddamn it sucks to be punished for being yourself."
Indeed. And in some ways this point in history is the most free we've ever been to choose our own lives.

On the other hand as soon as I say that I can't help but think of the influence advertising has on society and how pervasive it is today vs the past.


StarBright

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #144 on: June 12, 2018, 12:23:31 PM »
On the other hand, regarding gender expense inequalities, guys are generally expected to spend more on women than visa versa. Diamonds for Valentines day, expensive meals for Mothers' day, surprise getaways for birthdays, and for Christmas a shiny new luxury SUV with a big red bow! I feel kinda sorry for the boys in this respect, it's a lot of pressure.

I actually really appreciated this comment because at first I bristled at it, and was like "No one expects a new car or diamond earrings! This is not an apples to apples comparison."  But maybe some of the guys on this board do feel pressure to provide those things. As a mustachian woman I, of course, roll my eyes but that doesn't mean it isn't a real concern that dudes have. I wonder if that is my equivalent of men being eye-rolly at women's costs.

As a woman I feel like it should be obvious that there are additional costs that I must incur to move through society, but maybe it truly isn't so obvious to some of the men here, just as it wasn't obvious to me before this comment that some men might feel like they need to provide women in their lives with nice gifts!

If men feel like they have to provide nice gifts to women, mothers, wives etc to get ahead and be treated with respect in the workplace then that is just plain wrong.

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #145 on: June 12, 2018, 12:27:41 PM »
On the other hand, regarding gender expense inequalities, guys are generally expected to spend more on women than visa versa. Diamonds for Valentines day, expensive meals for Mothers' day, surprise getaways for birthdays, and for Christmas a shiny new luxury SUV with a big red bow! I feel kinda sorry for the boys in this respect, it's a lot of pressure.

Nobody expects anything *that* over the top, I hope. Not when most of the women on this forum would be satisfied with a pair of jeans that (a) fit, (b) are comfortable, (c) look good, and (d) have functional pockets. Any man who can provide that is marriage material. (The diamond or the luxury SUV is probably easier to find.)

Seriously, though, I've noticed that men (or the lesbians in an "issuing the invitation" role) tend to be the ones who pay more for dating expenses. The restauranting and show-watching rituals that people tend to go through to avoid having to talk to each other while they decide whether there's enough sexual chemistry and compatibility to justify repeating the process can get very expensive. Most first dates are also last dates.

o2bfree

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #146 on: June 12, 2018, 12:31:02 PM »
I actually really appreciated this comment because at first I bristled at it, and was like "No one expects a new car or diamond earrings! This is not an apples to apples comparison."  But maybe some of the guys on this board do feel pressure to provide those things. As a mustachian woman I, of course, roll my eyes but that doesn't mean it isn't a real concern that dudes have. I wonder if that is my equivalent of men being eye-rolly at women's costs.

I was just thinking of all the ads that come on around those times. Like the Shane Company ads for diamonds at Valentines day and the Lexus ads a Christmas. DH and I rarely do gifts, even on birthdays, and some women I know and men he knows can't believe he's off the hook on those occasions.

Just Joe

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #147 on: June 12, 2018, 12:36:36 PM »
But as a guy I'm expected to actually give a damn about collegiate and professional sports and, what's worse, participate in the endless discussions on same.   I just plain didn't.  Didn't give a damn and wasn't going to pretend I did.   It stunted promotional opportunities into the higher management ranks.  That was fine by me.  Thank God I'm now FIRED and don't ever, ever have to spend hour upon hour, workday upon workday listening to that drivel anymore.

HEAR! HEAR! HEAR!

I don't mind listening to a good friend talk about sports b/c it is something they are enthusiastic about. I have hobbies I am enthusiastic about too that give rise to all sorts of arcane fascinations. "Look at how the car factory chose to build this body panel - its a junction of the base of the A-pillar, the rocker panel, the body skin and a frame outrigger... In in order to fix the rot I'll need to.... Or - look how the company packaged the drivertrain and suspension within that 40 year old Vespa. Goofy little thing but no wonder it was so durable..."

I don't like getting trapped at work in an involuntary conversation about whatever was on the sports channel over the weekend during/after a meeting or over lunch. I was expected to be present so I had to endure it. So be it. Not my set of topics but whatever , i was getting paid for my time. That boss more or less used participation in the conversation as a yardstick to see who was part of the "team" aka the "boy's club".

I ditched another employer that had a fascination with our wardrobe. ;) My current employer worries the most about how clever (or not) I am.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 12:39:19 PM by Just Joe »

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #148 on: June 12, 2018, 12:38:16 PM »
On the other hand, regarding gender expense inequalities, guys are generally expected to spend more on women than visa versa. Diamonds for Valentines day, expensive meals for Mothers' day, surprise getaways for birthdays, and for Christmas a shiny new luxury SUV with a big red bow! I feel kinda sorry for the boys in this respect, it's a lot of pressure.

Nobody expects anything *that* over the top, I hope. Not when most of the women on this forum would be satisfied with a pair of jeans that (a) fit, (b) are comfortable, (c) look good, and (d) have functional pockets. Any man who can provide that is marriage material. (The diamond or the luxury SUV is probably easier to find.)

Seriously, though, I've noticed that men (or the lesbians in an "issuing the invitation" role) tend to be the ones who pay more for dating expenses. The restauranting and show-watching rituals that people tend to go through to avoid having to talk to each other while they decide whether there's enough sexual chemistry and compatibility to justify repeating the process can get very expensive. Most first dates are also last dates.

I like how Dave Chappelle talked about this in his standup bit from 2000, Killin them softly. Women want nice things, Men want women, so Men buy nice things to lure in the Women. Hilarious standup special, in my opinion. It's the bit where he ends it saying "Gotcha [b-word]!"

Obviously it's unscientific and oversimplified, but I like to think that comedy usually includes a grain of truth in it.


ElleFiji

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Re: Do women really spend 1/4 M more than men on appearance?
« Reply #149 on: June 12, 2018, 01:44:03 PM »
I actually do find that pretending to have a modicum of interest in sportsball and other cultural phenomena tremendously helpful career wise. I'm not great at pretending, but it helps when I do.