Author Topic: Couple is $1M in debt  (Read 21273 times)

OneBigHappy

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2018, 01:11:46 PM »
The thread is only about you in the sense that you qualified yourself for the Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy. Congratulations! I think it's hilarious that you keep coming back . . . "speak out and remove all doubt" indeed.

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3. Now you are just making stuff up. We didn't borrow money for child care. Where'd you get that from?

I got it straight out of Joseph's mouth from your video. You don't remember what was said in the video?

He was talking about how the credit card debt just happened really fast, that it snuck up on you, and that "you had the baby, and started have all this child care expense," and then you "didn't revisit the budget" and somehow that led to $15,000 in new credit card debt. So maybe you wrote checks for the childcare, or even paid in cash for that for all I know, but child care was mentioned as the only reason why you charged a bunch of monthly expenses to rapidly rack it up "because we did not adjust our spending habits." There was no other rationalization offered . . .

Also, apparently it's not the first time you've racked up the cards "We had paid off all of the consumer debt before . . . "

There are all kinds of other places in the video when you say things like "this is not what we were planning," yet here in this thread you want us to buy how rock solid your current plan is. Interesting.

You seem like nice people, but it is comical that you are here asserting to be especially good with money. The fact is that you make decent money now, and that's how you have survived being sub-par (at best) in money management in the recent past. Probably you have learned a ton recently, especially since you are reading excellent advice here and other places. Maybe it is actually sinking in, and perhaps you will not continue to repeat past mistakes and will eventually go from negative to positive net worth. I do hope it all works out for you in the long run.

Well we can laugh together because I think it's amusing that you keep coming back to talk about my life. Again, it makes perfect sense for me to want to talk about myself. It makes less sense for you to want to talk about me.

I've mentioned this a could of times before, but it's impossible to give every single nuance in any single video. Our credit card debt was a function of several things. In other videos I talk about how my unhappiness in my then job led me to spend in ways that I normally wouldn't and that that, coupled with various changes to our budget including child care led to us quickly amassing credit card debt. But to say that we amassed debt FOR child care is wrong. We amassed debt FOR whatever things we bought with that debt.

And yes, it's not the first time we've had credit card debt. We both had high interest credit card debt after our divorces. We also had credit card debt after we had to move suddenly for a job and the house didn't sell for six months. The biggest difference is that we were able to pay it off within a few months and that it didn't cost us anything in interest.

We definitely have made lots of missteps in our finances, and even talk specifically about some of our biggest financial regrets in another video. We don't pretend to be perfect. Instead, we show how you can self-correct when things go off course. And we talk about how to help prevent things from going too far off course. One of the ways that we do that is by determining our FIRE number and time frame and never varying from that. So despite our financial mishaps, we are still on track for FIRE because we didn't compromise our savings and never were more than a few months of self-correction away from our plan.

But let's talk a moment about the assumptions that you are making, specifically that use of debt equals poor financial choices. The reality is that the use of debt per se is not bad. It's the cost of debt that is bad because you end up paying more for the thing that you would have otherwise. While we may have amassed credit card debt, it didn't actually cost us anything. Which is why the credit card debt didn't affect our financial trajectory at all.

Let me put it another way. If you intend to buy a thing a year from now for $1000 and instead buy it now for a $1,000 loan at 0 percent interest, you aren't any worse off financially. You may be arguably worse off emotionally because you can't change your mind about what to use that $1000 for, but the cost is the same. And really, if you can invest the $1,000 today and borrow $1,000 for zero, you'd be better off financially.

So I say that it's not enough to say that because we amassed credit card debt we are bad with money. Rather, you'd have to demonstrate that the amassing of the debt had a demonstrable negative impact on our financial trajectory. That's extremely difficult to do on a zero percent interest loan thanks to the time value of money.

FINate

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2018, 01:44:11 PM »
I am still keenly interested to hear about what math we aren’t doing correctly here on MMM forums

The first question is how many actually made any attempt to do math at all. The answer is almost no one, despite the fact that all of our numbers are out there. Heck, we even have a video showing our financial trajectory year over year for the next 20 years with numbers, graphs, and fancy effects. So let's do a breakdown.

1. Our house. Some people correctly noted that more than half of our debt is our house because we live in a high cost of living area. That means we could sell it and that debt would be gone. But more importantly, it means that in 7-8 years, we should be able to sell it and use the proceeds to purchase a home in a lower cost of living area. Assuming our house appreciates at 2%, we'd net $186,000 five years from now. ($140K at 1%). That will either pay for or come close to paying for a house outright.

2. Our student loans. Will be discharged in 4 and six years respectively. Though it's not our plan, check out Root of Good for a FIRE couple using IBR to manage student loans after FIRE.

3. All of our other debts. Will be paid off in three years or less simply by paying as agreed.

4. Our nest egg. Is currently at $250K and we invest a minimum of $60k every year. That's $1.1 million in eight years. Note that this number is lower than it could be because we will be paying for our children to attend a public college. The eldest starts in two years.

5. Our annual expenses less mortgage and debts. $22,000. For a family of four.

Add these all up and what do you get? A couple that is 8 years or less away from FIRE in their early 40s.

So the failure on the MMM forums isn't that we aren't applying math and logic correctly in general, but rather that we did not go searching through your site/videos to analyze your individual situation. Thanks for clarifying.

Your plan as outlined here looks reasonable from a MMM perspective. Does it include your plans for a lake house?

Zamboni

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2018, 02:24:40 PM »
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In other videos I talk about how my unhappiness in my then job led me to spend in ways that I normally wouldn't and that that, coupled with various changes to our budget including child care led to us quickly amassing credit card debt. But to say that we amassed debt FOR child care is wrong. We amassed debt FOR whatever things we bought with that debt.

Lol, you are a lawyer, no doubt about it. The only thing mentioned in the video was the child care and how it was related to your credit card debt; I now find your rationalizations quite hilarious.

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But let's talk a moment about the assumptions that you are making, specifically that use of debt equals poor financial choices.

When did I say that? Classic straw man.

It is common knowledge here that leverage for appreciating or cash-flowing assets can be a good thing. Leverage for rapidly depreciating assets, like a car and whatever else you bought (beside child care) to make yourself feel better about your wage-slave status, is foolish and a sign of poor impulse control. You rationalize it anyway, over and over, and keep telling us how smart you are and where you went to school, which I think is incredibly funny as well.

And so you have earned your place on the Wall of Shame. Congratulations!

FINate

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2018, 02:35:19 PM »
[collapsing some of this conversation down because it's getting unwieldy]

I can't speak for others here, but I don't deify Pete (MMM). He puts his pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else. He's fallible and makes mistakes...like that time he bought a bigger house than he really needed. But he made a course correction, and I respect him for that.

So, it wasn't actually a debt confession, even though you say this "video is our debt confession" at the start (0:09). From 4:14 until 5:38, more than a minute (more than 5% of total length) is dedicated to rationalizing the house on the basis of the school. There was plenty of time to discuss the much more important factors raised in this thread. Are you intentionally misrepresenting your decision making process to your viewers, or maybe just think it's not important for them to know, some other reason? This omission seems to run contrary to your goal of teaching people personal finance.

RE the motorcycle: Link? If you're talking about this http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/06/man-sells-motorbike-experiences-bliss/ then it should be noted that that was written by Mr. Frugal Toque, a guest writer. It's about his own struggles with consumerism, and wrestling with a love for motorcycles vs. MMM goals. In the end he decides it's not worth the expense and sells it, he corrects the situation. Good on him. I'll repeat again, my issue with the video content (rather than you as individuals) is that there's a lot of justification as if unavoidable. That may not be the actual reality of the events, may not even be what you intended, but for the viewer it comes across that way. Again, I'm not alone in this assessment, a number of comments on your video point out the same.

RE solicitous tone:

And to clarify one more thing, my responses are not for you. They are for the people who are following Mustachianism and wondering why they still don't feel happy. It's for the people who wonder if there might be another way. It's for the people who want to compost, ride their bike to work, love the job they have,  be able to afford international family travel while driving a newer energy efficient car, AND be on track to retiring early but maybe need some help moving their lives in the right direction to meet those goals. Our channel teaches people how to work towards having that life and gives them the tools they need to make it happen.

Sure reads like soliciting to me.

FINate

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2018, 02:49:02 PM »
1. Obviously the question is not why do I keep posting in a thread that is talking about me. The question is, why are you?

For whatever reason(s), though perhaps it's the willful obsession with optimization and DIY, engineers are overly represented around here...


ysette9

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2018, 03:25:06 PM »
When you mentioned the math and thinking that we did things wrong here on the forums I assumed you had some quibble with the underlying assumptions behind the 4% rule or market projections for future returns or something. Of course I didn’t do your math for you and I expect others won’t either. I don’t expect you to check my math for my own situation either. We are all here to learn enough to manage our own finances. We debate the underlying basics and learn from each other, but unless someone posts a case study, we don’t check each other’s math.

I am glad you guys are on your way to your goals. We are in a HCOL area do a mortgage of $500k feels small to me. As I mentioned before, student loan debt would make me really uncomfortable, especially in large sums, but that is your business.

I did read a little on your blog (I can’t do the video format) and I think we agree on the principle that money should be spent thoughtfully on those things that bring joy.

bacchi

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2018, 03:43:18 PM »
Pro tip: If you won't want to be criticized for a lifestyle blog/vlog, don't start one. Or grow thicker skin.

Rollin

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2018, 04:56:29 PM »
When you put your life on the internet, you are asking for criticism. I actually didn't watch your video (just not interested) and don't really care how you live your life or spend your money, but when you seek attention you can't expect everyone to like you or agree with you.

There are other posts that are in this vein and I don't know how to capture them. However, just because someone puts themselves out into the public realm does not mean that people should be so harsh and offer up so much (often anonymous) criticism. It is sadly the reality that is what happens, but it does not mean that it is right.

I appreciate the responses from you OneBigHappy. Thank you.

So we can throw all the "face punches" we want, but lets try not get to carried away and use that term as an excuse to be rude and disrespectful.

vivophoenix

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2018, 06:43:17 PM »
First of all, @OneBigHappy , your blog and your family are both beautiful.   Congratulations on the successes you have achieved so far.   I wish you and your family nothing but the best.

I do feel, however, that you are perhaps being a little overzealous in your insistence that some of the choices you have made financially are unquestionable and that your life is going to turn out exactly as you have projected.  I mean, it is great that you both got law degrees, yours from Yale.  But was that the only route you could have taken?   Did you ever consider applying for something like the Navy JAG program (http://www.jag.navy.mil/careers_/careers/opportunities_sp.html)?   That could have been an alternative to taking on a big chunk of that debt.   And maybe something worth exploring in more depth for your readers/viewers as you develop your blog.  In your case it may have been the path not taken for legitimate reasons, but in addition to explaining why you didn't go that route, you could seek out others who took that path and do case studies of their experience, etc.

I guess what I am trying to say is I think it is great that you are offering an alternative voice, especially given the challenges you have overcome.  But your readers/viewers will get a lot more out of your bogging/vlogging if you don't just limit it to a focus on your personal path/successes but also look at what the alternatives might have been and admit that maybe some of your choices may have been suboptimal.   $1 million in debt is a lot to dig out of, regardless of income.  The bloggers I admire who have had real staying power --  J.D. Roth is a great example -- are the ones with a unique voice who are also very open about the mistakes they have made and how they learn from them.  I understand the urge to respond vigorously to the criticism, but a bit more openness/vulnerability and exploration of the possible downsides of taking on that level of debt might actually get you more street cred AND a bigger viewership/readership.
or heres a better idea: you start your own blog and you talk about how you would have done things? this woman doesn't have to cater to the views of this blog especially since she never claimed to be a follower.

this thread has gotten grosser and grosser.

facepunches are for people who complain about having no money and then spend it unwisely. this woman is savvy and aware. to me, it just seems like people are here for a takedown, because there is literally no reason for a person with a sound financial plan living on one income should be criticized to this extent

Herbert Derp

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2018, 08:43:59 PM »
It seems like the people in that video are carrying out a well thought out plan. It seems utterly pointless to criticize them just because it doesn't adhere to "Mustachianism" or whatever.

Kudos to OneBigHappy and shame to the ideologues in this thread. Can their plan fail? Sure. Is it for me? Hell no! But it seems to work for them. I'll take a page from their book and let it be known that at some point in my life I plan to buy one of these. Is it frugal? Nope. But I always wanted one ever since I was a young child, and it won't stop me from retiring in my 30s.

bacchi

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2018, 08:59:16 PM »
or heres a better idea: you start your own blog and you talk about how you would have done things?

Or we could talk about it here, on this forum.

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this woman doesn't have to cater to the views of this blog especially since she never claimed to be a follower.

Well, yeah. The MMM forums have no authority over how anyone spends their money. ?? Did you think they did?

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facepunches are for people who complain about having no money and then spend it unwisely.

Sez who? They're also for people who foolishly waste money and try to rationalize their decisions, even if they're making the big bucks.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2018, 08:59:46 PM »
Hey, I've seen these videos before! I thought they were pretty cute and definitely from a household that's still a financial work in progress. I remember thinking that there was a lot that could be cut from their budget and a lot of purchasing decisions that could be better, but everybody who sets out on their financial journey still has things to learn. Documenting it on YouTube is actually quite courageous.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2018, 09:10:52 PM »
Sez who? They're also for people who foolishly waste money and try to rationalize their decisions, even if they're making the big bucks.

Why does it matter? They have a plan and they are following it. They are not complaining or asking for handouts. What's the point in being judgmental of people who are just minding their own business?

I think the only people worth putting down are those who needlessly pass judgment on others, and those who think they are entitled to a piece of someone else's success when they could have helped themselves by making better financial decisions. The key difference here is that such people are not minding their own business.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 09:12:31 PM by Herbert Derp »

bacchi

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2018, 09:22:39 PM »
Sez who? They're also for people who foolishly waste money and try to rationalize their decisions, even if they're making the big bucks.

Why does it matter? They have a plan and they are following it. They are not complaining or asking for handouts. What's the point in being judgmental of people who are just minding their own business?

Because this is the "AntiMustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy"?

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I think the only people worth putting down are those who needlessly pass judgment on others,

Sure, if they're needlessly passing judgement.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #64 on: January 07, 2018, 09:32:56 PM »
Sure, if they're needlessly passing judgement.

Why do OneBigHappy's actions merit judgment? Because their values are different than yours? Because they enjoy living in a big house?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 09:34:38 PM by Herbert Derp »

FINate

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2018, 11:26:08 PM »
Read the beginning of the thread. The initial comments were fairly circumspect, at least by MMM standards. Tongue in cheek statements about HCOL and relocating to Texas. Slight nitpickery about Dave Ramsey not working for them. Concern about student loans. Rather mild.

Then their opening salvo:

It's nice to see that at least a some of you are able to use logic, basic math, and a little real world common sense. First, let's point out that being a regular sheeple is no different than being a mustachian sheeple. Just because you prefer a certain way of life doesn't make it best or right. And further, if you are truly happy with your life decisions then you wouldn't waste your time mocking people with silly Walls of Shame. What is this, high school?

When you put yourself out there as a public figure you are, by definition, inviting public attention including scrutiny of the public eye. You don't get to dictate the opinions people have or choose to voice. This is the deal you make with the devil. Average Joe commenters are different, are not attempting to cash in on their notoriety. OBH's end of year budget video indicates they're bringing in $400/month from YT ads, I expect this will grow as their followers increase. Not a bad side hustle, but at the same time they are now media professionals and need to be less sensitive to criticism.

IMO it's fair game to comment on their content here on MMM, and we shouldn't let aggressive bloggers try to cow dissenting opinions. It's fine if people want to argue, make a case, or even agree to disagree. But yes, this does mean having opinions, making judgements even (gasp!).

Speaking of opinions, I've gone through a fair amount of their site now (never heard of them before this thread). It's very professionally done. They seem like nice people and are clearly bright and ambitious. I'm fairly certain they will do well and succeed, and I'm sure cashing in on web celebrity is part of the plan. That's all well and good, no issue with all that.

However I'm not a fan of their values/philosophy. In their 7 step program for financial freedom the last step is "Financial Abundance" which is "when you have more money than you could spend (within reason)." It should be noted that the preceding step, FI, includes, for them, having a lake house and "regular travel on a generous budget." And elsewhere there are quotes such as "insead of frugality being a choice, it becomes something that you have to do because you new frugal crew will judge you if you buy that new designer bag that you fell in love with a few weeks ago"  and "What’s important is not how much we do or don’t spend, but that whatever we do is intentional and furthers our goal of living our best life on the journey to financial independence" (http://onebighappylife.com/money/why-we-arent-frugal/). It should be noted that they are in the early phases of step 3, so I consider much of their content as aspirational rather than tried and tested advice. Not saying they won't succeed, we just don't know until/unless they do.

Also, I get that an intense focus on frugality for its own sake wears thin rather quickly. But one of the key insights from MMM (and a few others) is the need to radically alter mindset about money and consumption, that money works for you and that your life energy is far more valuable than owning any designer handbag or going on a fancypants vacation that will only bring very brief happiness. Once the basics of food, shelter, and health are covered, then freedom and quality time with loved ones is far more important. Having gone down the road of "financial abundance" myself I know from experience that it did not bring lasting happiness, quite the opposite in fact. It was when we finally took "that luxury vacation that’s on our life bucket list" (same frugality article from above) that I finally started to realize how hollow such things are, and then realized that hedonic adaptation would mean that I would never truly be free as long as my goals were founded on consumerism. This is my main criticism of OBH. It's just my opinion, which I stand behind here on MMM.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 11:57:08 PM by FINate »

runbikerun

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2018, 01:02:53 AM »
Is this Insult Your Potential Audience Day or something?

Herbert Derp

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2018, 01:09:10 AM »
A couple of the first few comments were pretty insulting, IMO. Can't we just agree that different things make different people happy? Personally, I'm part way through step five of the seven steps mentioned previously, and have chosen to dedicate the next few years of my life to reaching step six as soon as possible. In order to do this, I choose to be extremely frugal, but my frugality has always been a means to an end rather than an end in and of itself.

One of the reasons that I do all of this is because I have the desire to live a life of luxury and have the best of everything. However, I judge things by my own personal standards rather than society's, so my definition of what's best and most luxurious tends to be quite alien to consumer culture's definition. It follows that one of my other desires is to have the financial resources to be free of society's expectations and have the opportunity to live a life almost entirely of my own design. I reject consumerism because I see little meaning in it other than a vain attempt to impose someone else's values onto my life, but at the same time I am definitely not a Mustachian.

The point I'm trying to make is that I live my life according to my own terms, and like OneBigHappy, I don't consider myself to be a Mustachian--and that's ok. It's perfectly ok to live your life according to your own personal values. I guess you could say my values are more in line with Steve Jobs, who was also a minimalist who rejected mainstream society. Steve Jobs also had a €100MM yacht.

I mean, you could say "if you were minimalists, you wouldn't care about having a big house." But the whole thing is a moot point because OneBigHappy are not minimalists. Unless you guys share the same values, it's just rude and pointless to pass judgment.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 01:25:59 AM by Herbert Derp »

runbikerun

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2018, 01:32:14 AM »
I've gone through the comments prior to OneBigHappy's appearance, and they're really not very hostile or insulting at all. There's a mention of the living room they never use which is perhaps a little less than charitable, but overall it's pretty mild.

Then OneBigHappy steams in and starts firing insults everywhere and generally doing a pretty on-point Ron Burgundy impression (("the list of my accomplishments is long" - seriously?) On a forum defined by the concept of facepunches, a snarky mention of Dave Ramsey and a pointed comment about a little-used living room barely registers.

Broadway2019

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2018, 10:12:57 AM »
I feel compelled to chime in because I have been reading over the past 2 days. She was not insulting people but trying to get readers to understand her point of view. I will say people on here are not very open minded or friendly towards people living a different lifestyle. I take everything I read on here with a grain of salt. The forum is great for some things, but I do think people take this too far.

Just because someone has a different roadmap doesn't make them bad at finances. Not everyone wants to retire in 10 years. Some people rather have a balance and retire in 15-20 years. Some people don't mind living in a shack and others can't stand the idea. There are different values for different folks. No need to tear down and insult people because it's not 'your' way.

runbikerun

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2018, 10:43:20 AM »
I feel compelled to chime in because I have been reading over the past 2 days. She was not insulting people but trying to get readers to understand her point of view.

"It's nice to see that at least a some of you are able to use logic, basic math, and a little real world common sense."

That's literally the very first sentence OneBigHappy leads with. A good hard insult aimed at people's basic numeracy straight out of the gate, after nothing more confrontational than a joke about a living room and some sass about Dave Ramsey. And neither of those were written as comments to OneBigHappy: they were standard chatty injokes on a forum specifically designed and maintained for frugal people.

It still boggles my mind, to be honest. MMM would be a decent place to start in terms of soliciting feedback and finding some degree of common ground, but instead the writer decided to take umbrage at the lack of politeness and decorum on a forum that refers to facepunches as a positive concept.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2018, 02:19:39 PM »
Is this Insult Your Potential Audience Day or something?

I sincerely doubt that this vlogger considers us a potential audience.

Most of us aren't interested in happy-hippie "Go, you! However you want to live your own life is peachy-keen, so if it feels good, buy it". That's the only kind of response the vlogger is interested in.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2018, 02:42:00 PM »
I appreciate your comment. It's critical but fair. I hear you on the BS headlines and we've gotten a lot better. Though in our defense, the 2017 car one was titled "We bought a new car...battery." Which makes me laugh out loud because it's about how we drove my mom's 2017 Maxima (that we strongly advised her not to buy) to buy a new battery for our car and change our car battery ourselves.

I agree that the video format is much harder to parse than a blog, particularly because videos need to be as close to 10 minutes or less as possible, which we always fail at. We have created a website and will have more comprehensive cross referencing there.

And regarding HCOLAs, I can't wait to move. It makes sense for use to be here for a few more years--at least until our eldest head off to college in two years--but after that I can't wait to move to a LCOLA. I would love to live in biking/walking distance from my job and have a sub-200K house. That's one of our goals.
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I just want to let you know you likely won't have a sub 200k house in a LCOLA, if you are concerned with things like biking to work and school districts.  I've moved to several places where people have commented "Oh you get a mansion for that price," except that mansion ends up being in an area of town you don't want to live-in.  As Dicey mentioned, LCOLA area people don't understand HCOLA areas, but the reverse is true as well.  HCOLA people often underestimate the cost for what they want when moving to a LCOLA area.  Now $250,000-$350,000 is a different story depending.

jinga nation

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2018, 05:36:56 PM »
I've mentioned the following phrase several times on MMMForums:

Jerking off the elephant while standing on your dick.

Thats OBH in a nutshell. Pun intended.

Hey OBH, don't you have real cases to work on and hours to bill instead of vlogging and coming here? I thought y'all billed like 60-70 hours a week and then spent more time in networking, etc. Gotta make junior partner quick.

Forum members here WILL give you a facepunch. Multiples. (Verbal, not literal. Just in case you decide to go all lawyer-liar on us.)

mm1970

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2018, 06:18:52 PM »
Listen to them explain how the Dave Ramsey plan works for other people, but doesn't really work for them.

Hmm, well I watched a bit and it sounded like they at least really thought it through. Not one financial plan works for everybod, I think you always have to analyze and apply to your own situation and see what works best for you. The fact that they thought it through and could explain all of their choices in that video was quite positive for me. (This was the video 'Should we follow Dave Ramsey's babysteps').

I didn't watch the video listed above to the end. It bothered me how they were explaining all their choices. 'Yes we have a new car, but when we looked at the numbers of new vs. used, there wasn't such a big difference, blahblahblah'. I thought this video was just another one of people explaining how their debt is 'justified'. Then I watched some bit and pieces of other videos of them, which I liked better.

At least they have a plan and I hope they can achieve their goals. They seem to have thought it through, hopefully they'll evaluate honestly and achieve their dreams.
I watched part of their first video (not all of it, I'm at work!) and some of a few others and...

Well, I think it's bad, but not that bad.

Sure, they could have made better choices but...they are lawyers.  I am assuming that their incomes, like my husband and I as engineers, are decent.

Decent enough that as long as they are employed, they will be fine.
Yes, their house is expensive.  And big.  And I didn't catch where they live, but as someone who lives in So Cal, I know me some expensive homes.  Our first mortgage on our first and only house was $100k more than their mortgage now.  And my house is a SHACK compared to theirs.  On one hand, you can say "they overbought!" and "they are focused too much on school district!"  But those 2 go hand in hand.  Our shack was bought near the peak (but not at the peak) in the single worst school district in the area covering 4 elementary districts and 30 elementary schools.  When our older kid started elementary?  It scored a 1/10, and it's now up to a 2, whee!  We transferred.  To a "5" school. School districts, they are tricky, don't get me started, as I go tonight to get my kid into junior high.  At the parent info meeting it was me, a few other parents, and a LONG LINE of white parents with their transfer forms going to the rich school across town.

But all that means is yeah, we've paid down our mortgage a lot now.  We have more breathing room.  But our house value has sucked rocks.  Those friends who "stretched" for a bigger house in a better school district, assuming they all stayed employed - have seen their house values go up.  If needed, they can sell and bail.  Ours is STILL at where we paid for it 14 years ago.  (Well, in reality, it went up by $80k to the peak and then down by $300k).  The problem with being a bottom feeder I guess.  (Our house is a 2BR, 1BA, 1100 sf, no garage.  Some houses in the hood are only 900 sf but not many!)

Some of the other videos that I watched bits of were pretty good.  Inexpensive car, don't buy clothes, watch your food costs, no mani/pedi.  For a couple of lawyers this is very important info.  As a woman engineer, yeah the pressure for a mani/pedi is not there.

Finally, the college loans, that's all water under the bridge now.  Ivy League, I assume it's worth it.   Like my friends who are doctors, it's a big number but if you are smart, you can pay it down fast.  My college loans were at 8% and 10%, so it was worth it to me to pay them off early.

One more thing...some of the comments on the marriage vlog were way out of line.  I mean, seriously, who the eff cares if they are married or not??
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 06:22:20 PM by mm1970 »

Zamboni

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2018, 09:09:57 PM »
Finally, the college loans, that's all water under the bridge now.  Ivy League, I assume it's worth it.   Like my friends who are doctors, it's a big number but if you are smart, you can pay it down fast.  My college loans were at 8% and 10%, so it was worth it to me to pay them off early.

One more thing...some of the comments on the marriage vlog were way out of line.  I mean, seriously, who the eff cares if they are married or not??

From what I gathered, they are not planning to pay off the student loans . . . they are planning to just tread water on them and hope they get bailed out by a government loan forgiveness program. Right now 10 years of service in some positions gains eligibility for this, but of course that law could change at any time. A cap on the maximum amount forgiven could be imposed (former President Obama proposed such a cap, so not a novel idea and there could be bipartisan support), or the number of years one has to make payments prior to forgiveness could be greatly extended. In any case, they are assuming that the law will not be changed and therefore planning on other tax payers footing the bill for at least some of what they originally agreed to pay back.

Whether this is smart or unethical depends upon what type of service work one is performing and the moral compass of the person making the judgement. I am personally fine with loan forgiveness for some types of jobs (for example, teachers in public schools in low income neighborhoods), as people in those jobs have a tough time paying back education loans due to relatively low salaries and I believe that was the original intention of these types of programs. But, this couple clearly doesn't want anything to do with low income neighborhood schools . . . perhaps they are routinely doing some other type of public service work, such as serving as public defenders for the indigent?

The persistent underlying tone of "gaming the system" is at least partially also what is leading to some of the disparaging comments on their videos about them not being married. With marriage comes responsibility (such as both parents providing reasonable support for dependents all the way through college) that some folks prefer to avoid so that they can qualify for more government aid.

People can and do game the system by not marrying.
Legal? Technically. Ethical? Not really.

There will always be people who work the system and then declare themselves "smart" when they are really just flouting the intention of the group-benefitting societal obligations codified in the law. YMMV. That may or may not have anything to do with why they didn't marry regardless of what they have to say about it . . . and I'm not planning to watch any more of their videos. Personally I don't care whether people get married or not. But I do understand that marriage is an uber-big deal to many religious people, so having children and living together basically as husband and wife and then making a public statement about not getting married is bound to draw some venomous responses. That is just to be expected in the USA . . . after all, "In God We Trust" is still printed on our money.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 06:31:34 AM by Zamboni »

FINate

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2018, 12:40:56 AM »
Finally, the college loans, that's all water under the bridge now.  Ivy League, I assume it's worth it.   Like my friends who are doctors, it's a big number but if you are smart, you can pay it down fast.  My college loans were at 8% and 10%, so it was worth it to me to pay them off early.

One more thing...some of the comments on the marriage vlog were way out of line.  I mean, seriously, who the eff cares if they are married or not??

From what I gathered, they are not planning pay off the student loans . . . they are planning to just tread water on them and hope they get bailed out by a government loan forgiveness program. Right now 10 years of service in some positions gains eligibility for this, but of course that law could change at any time. A cap on the maximum amount forgiven could be imposed (former President Obama proposed such a cap, so not a novel idea and there could be bipartisan support), or the number of years one has to make payments prior to forgiveness could be greatly extended. In any case, they are assuming that the law will not be changed and therefore planning on other tax payers footing the bill for at least some of what they originally agreed to pay back.

Whether this is smart or unethical depends upon what type of service work one is performing and the moral compass of the person making the judgement. I am personally fine with loan forgiveness for some types of jobs (for example, teachers in public schools in low income neighborhoods), as people in those jobs have a tough time paying back education loans due to relatively low salaries and I believe that was the original intention of these types of programs. But, this couple clearly doesn't want anything to do with low income neighborhood schools . . . perhaps they are routinely doing some other type of public service work, such as serving as public defenders for the indigent?

The persistent underlying tone of "gaming the system" is at least partially also what is leading to some of the disparaging comments on their videos about them not being married. With marriage comes responsibility (such as both parents providing reasonable support for dependents all the way through college) that some folks prefer to avoid so that they can qualify for more government aid.

People can and do game the system by not marrying.
Legal? Technically. Ethical? Not really.

There will always be people who work the system and then declare themselves "smart" when they are really just flouting the intention of the group-benefitting societal obligations codified in the law. YMMV. That may or may not have anything to do with why they didn't marry regardless of what they have to say about it . . . and I'm not planning to watch any more of their videos. Personally I don't care whether people get married or not. But I do understand that marriage is an uber-big deal to many religious people, so having children and living together basically as husband and wife and then making a public statement about not getting married is bound to draw some venomous responses. That is just to be expected in the USA . . . after all, "In God We Trust" is still printed on our money.

Not getting married is curious since in one video she talks about not having regrets about buying her wedding ring? Indefinite engagement maybe? Don't really care, but in the same video they also talk about not having regrets about buying a Dodge Journey, then in a related video about regretting the Fit purchase because it's too small. Huh, so they're on this thread talking about their virtue buying a Fit while failing to disclose that they're telling their audience that they regard this as a mistake. They're also quite ok with having a nanny, upcoming trip to Singapore, and other assorted expenses which is crazy given the amount of debt. Spend, spend, spend. It's so disconnected from their FIRE goals, can only guess they hope for increasing high income and cashing in on internet fame to get there. This may work for them since Americans love to be told what they want to hear -- that you can have it all and still FIRE -- but feel sorry for the folks who buy into it.

My curiosity is satisfied now, really done with their site.

mm1970

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2018, 10:18:00 AM »
Quote
The persistent underlying tone of "gaming the system" is at least partially also what is leading to some of the disparaging comments on their videos about them not being married. With marriage comes responsibility (such as both parents providing reasonable support for dependents all the way through college) that some folks prefer to avoid so that they can qualify for more government aid.

People can and do game the system by not marrying.
Legal? Technically. Ethical? Not really.

Eh, I'm of mixed opinion about this part.  I'm all for marriage.  Been married 21 years.  But.

I think a lot of the encouragement to get married and the benefits (legal and tax wise) to marriage are kind of BS.  So what if you "game the system" if the system is BS?

*Should* it be easier to inherit, pull the plug, manage finances, if you are married vs. in a LTR?  Why or why not?

Should people's benefits be based solely on their own income, why or why not?  In this respect, I am talking about things like
- health insurance, tied to work, and tied to who you are married to
- social security, tied to the spouse. 

I've known people to "game the system" in some respects - coworkers who have children but are not married.  "Should I add my kids to my insurance?"  Because they are not married, mom and kids are eligible for state insurance.  Even though dad's company offers it.  Thing is, dad's company offers it but not for free - in some companies, it's affordable.  In others, it's not.  When it comes down to that, I return to why the eff should it be related to the job anyway?

You can make the same argument for various types of aid, like college aid and such.  Honestly the government could probably regulate their way around it if they wanted.  Look at total income of the parents and total outlay.  If you are cohabiting, then that's a factor.

Social security is another interesting area where we encourage marriage - where a spouse can receive benefits from a working spouse even if they didn't work.  Of course, that didn't apply to gay families who couldn't marry.

Anyway... the system is somewhat weird, in my opinion, and it overly encourages marriage for what I consider to be odd reasons.

wonkette

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2018, 11:56:07 AM »
As a DC resident I have hear this kind of Ivy League know-it-all mentality every day. Thirty seconds of this video reminded me of the tone of so many conversations I've had in my work and personal life. From questions of federal policy to which DC craft brewery is the best. Some of them (not the couple being discussed, clearly) develop some humility, but most of them end up going through the rest of their life with the idea that they are the smartest, deserve to be in charge, and should tell other people what to do. It is really funny when you see their blindness bite them in the ass, if there are enough DC residents, or maybe just enough white shoe lawyers we could start a whole thread on here of Antimustachian Ivy League know-it-alls. 

OneBigHapy, I think you'd find DC Urban Moms and Dads more your speed. There they are constantly justifying $$$$ homes for 'good' schools, comparing top-tier degrees, and lamenting how you can't retire on anything less than $10M.

mm1970

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2018, 01:06:14 PM »
As a DC resident I have hear this kind of Ivy League know-it-all mentality every day. Thirty seconds of this video reminded me of the tone of so many conversations I've had in my work and personal life. From questions of federal policy to which DC craft brewery is the best. Some of them (not the couple being discussed, clearly) develop some humility, but most of them end up going through the rest of their life with the idea that they are the smartest, deserve to be in charge, and should tell other people what to do. It is really funny when you see their blindness bite them in the ass, if there are enough DC residents, or maybe just enough white shoe lawyers we could start a whole thread on here of Antimustachian Ivy League know-it-alls. 

OneBigHapy, I think you'd find DC Urban Moms and Dads more your speed. There they are constantly justifying $$$$ homes for 'good' schools, comparing top-tier degrees, and lamenting how you can't retire on anything less than $10M.
I lived in DC.  I can relate.  But it's not just a DC thing either, it's anywhere that there's a large slug of upper middle class folks and a significant number of poor folk.

There's this urge to stay away from the poor folk, the brown kids, the gang-bangers, the "fill in the undesirable word".

But honestly, that's why some people do what they do.  Some people go to law school to be lawyers, some people go to Ivies for law school because they like what it represents.

My husband and I went to public schools for K-12 and we both did fine.  He went to an Ivy + top 10 engineering school, I went to a top 10 engineering school.  Our kids are very bright.  They are going to average public schools and they will be FINE.  But my experience is why I feel that way.  I can see why families, with "average" kids or "smart" kids who themselves went to the "right" schools might want them to have an extra advantage.  Seriously my older kid wants to go to Cal Tech, and he's got the chops to do it.  But OMG, what if he doesn't get in because he doesn't have the right mix of coding experience and varsity sports, and OMG you let him take shop class instead of music? Because then he's just another UMC white boy.  Eh, he'll be fine.

Zamboni

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2018, 04:48:49 PM »
The marriage tax penalty makes complete sense from a societal viewpoint. A household with 2 adults sharing a bedroom is less expensive for those two adults than it would be for them each to have separate households. Besides housing, there are cheaper "family" rates for all kinds of things from Netflix and phone plans to gym memberships. This becomes dramatically apparent to long-married couples when they divorce . . . suddenly they are paying nearly "double" for everything. So, comparing a married couple with an equivalent income to the same two people living separately, the former is richer than the latter in terms of opportunities for optimizing all sorts of household expenses. Our tax system is clearly set up (well, was intended to be set up) for richer people to contribute a greater percentage of their earnings as taxes because they can afford to do so and society overall benefits when there are basic benefits for the indigent, infirm, disabled, etc.

My guess is that this couple uses family rates for all kind of things whenever it suits them. Going to the swimming pool and it's $5 per adult, $3 per child, but $11 for a family? Oh, you know they are a family that day to save a few bucks! And who are you to say they aren't a family?! But then they turn around and don't want to pay their fair share of taxes based upon all of those combined savings they have by being a family, so they game the tax system and don't really give a shit if there are disabled orphans & sick grannies who could use more tax dollars in the system for basic needs.

They're going to take all that they can take!

Birds gonna sing
Takers gonna take
And the Dude abides

Debonair

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2018, 10:45:05 PM »
Ok so what exactly is the deal with the school districts? How much difference is there between the good and mediocre schools? It almost makes me think we should do something like some Asian nations where you test into your high school, but suspect there is something cultural that would stop that from working.

@OneBigHappy at least has a plan, that is better than a lot of people that have a lot of debts. Not for me, but my priorities are very different. Also, wish my blog got lots of attention. Guess I got to write more controversial things.


mm1970

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2018, 11:14:48 AM »
Ok so what exactly is the deal with the school districts? How much difference is there between the good and mediocre schools? It almost makes me think we should do something like some Asian nations where you test into your high school, but suspect there is something cultural that would stop that from working.

@OneBigHappy at least has a plan, that is better than a lot of people that have a lot of debts. Not for me, but my priorities are very different. Also, wish my blog got lots of attention. Guess I got to write more controversial things.
I think that's going to depend a LOT on where you live.

To some:
Bad schools are anything that scores less than an 8/10
Bad schools are physically dangerous (weapons, gangs)
Bad schools are a euphemism for "poor people" or "brown people" or "English learners"
Bad schools are "disinterested teachers"
Bad schools are "uninterested students"

In some areas, you might have a student body with no hope, and kids who are disruptive and don't want to learn.  That can make it hard for those who do want to learn.
In some areas, you might have a student body that is dangerous.

In my area, the "bad schools" are predominantly poor and filled with English learners. 
The teachers are fabulous.
The kids are great.  They are just poor, and many of them are learning English.  Many of them have parents who don't speak English.  So their parents cannot help them with school work.
Often they live several families to a house, which is distracting.

The "good schools" are predominantly white and wealthy.  I just got done going to the open house for the local junior high.  There are 4 junior highs in our district, with open transfers, depending on space.  But of course, certain elementary schools "feed" into specific junior highs, based on address.  I went to the open house, and at the end walked over to ask some questions about their very highly regarded honors program, while a stream of white upper-middle class families, from the #1 elementary school (where the parents raise an astonishing $600,000 per year for the PTO - in a school with 600 students) - lined up with their transfer forms.  You see, the school 4 miles away, on the other side of town, happens to pull students from mostly upper middle class elementary schools.  So that school is "#1" meaning "filled with white kids".

Now, if you look at the almighty test scores, you'll find that the smaller local school's white kids score AS WELL AS (and in some cases, better than) this other school.  BUT the student body is mostly Hispanic.  Thus, it's a "bad school".  I mean, for crying out loud they are the only junior high to provide free lunch AND dinner (because they have after school programs and tutoring until 7 pm) to all students.

Some people really really want their kids to be surrounded by kids "like them".  They want their kids at that school where they raise $600k because then Johnny and Janie get to go on every field trip, get free t-shirts, go on trips to DC and Europe, all to pad their resumes so they can get into an Ivy League school.

emduck

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Re: Couple is $1M in debt
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2018, 12:33:30 PM »
Ok so what exactly is the deal with the school districts? How much difference is there between the good and mediocre schools? It almost makes me think we should do something like some Asian nations where you test into your high school, but suspect there is something cultural that would stop that from working.

Depends, like @Debonair said.  In my case, within my school district growing up, there were passable, great, and absolutely atrocious schools.

For K-4 I went to the school I was zoned into in my neighborhood (the poor part of town).  Class sizes were huge.  I think my fourth grade class had nearly 40 kids in it.  The teachers couldn't even handle all the kids by themselves, because many had learning disabilities and behavioral issues; the school was critically dependent on parents volunteering to help out in the classroom and with tasks like walking the the kids with issues to the bathroom or to and from special classes, or even doing things like photocopying because we didn't have enough aides. 

In my fourth grade class, we had almost 40 kids.  Over half of them were resource or special ed or some kind, many of whom got pulled out at varying points in the day for things like speech or occupational therapy.  Most of them had disruptive behavioral issues.  I got absolutely no teacher attention whatsoever.  (I went through a phase in second and third grade of being a sarcastic little smartass because I learned that being disruptive was the only way to get anyone to pay attention to you, but I had mostly grown out of it by this point.)  Not only did I basically never get any one-on-one interaction or attention from the teacher when it came to learning, I was so far ahead of the rest of the class that I used to get sent off to do the photocopying or deliver things to the office because there was nothing for me to do and not enough adults to go around.

Toward the end of the year, I was flagged and tested for the gifted program.  I was moved to a different school for the program in the fifth grade, where it turned out not only was I behind for a "gifted" student, but actually whatever we had been doing in fourth grade was not fourth grade math, because I didn't know any fourth grade math.

In grade school the differences between good/bad schools in my district were largely academic.  In high school, while some of the three had better teachers and they had different strengths in terms of extracurriculars, all the schools had AP classes--but at some of them you were more likely to be shot than at others.