Churches and tithing

[davisgang90]

We can disparage all white men safely because no  one will cry "racist" when you disparage the entire white male population of the U.S.  If we did that to any other race...

As to all of Gin's raging about rape, I don't have the answers to the questions asked.  I don't rape, I do speak out against sexism and racism and homophobia, but because I'm a white man, I somehow bear responsibility for all the imagined and real slights ever committed by the white man.  Men (and women) of all colors commit rape, but the only race we can safely objectify and vilify is the white race.  More white privilege I guess.

[GuitarStv]

Race is a silly concept.  It has little to no foundation in biology.  It just serves as a simple way to classify people.  If you're concerned about white folks being objectified and villified because of the way they're grouped. . . well, just read through this thread for many examples of others being attacked for their grouping.

White people were first brought up as a counter to the evil Muslim terrorist stereotype that was thrown into the conversation . . . as part of this stereotype is that the evil Muslim terrorist is also middle eastern.  The discrimination you're complaining about as being the sole province of the white person was actually introduced solely as a counterpoint to discrimination against stereotypically non-white people.

[forummm]

We can disparage all white men safely because no  one will cry "racist" when you disparage the entire white male population of the U.S.  If we did that to any other race...

As to all of Gin's raging about rape, I don't have the answers to the questions asked.  I don't rape, I do speak out against sexism and racism and homophobia, but because I'm a white man, I somehow bear responsibility for all the imagined and real slights ever committed by the white man.  Men (and women) of all colors commit rape, but the only race we can safely objectify and vilify is the white race.  More white privilege I guess.

I'm glad you agree that stereotyping and placing blame on all white men based on the actions of many, many white men doesn't make sense. The point, delivered through sarcasm on my part, is that this doesn't make sense for other races, religions or creeds either. Yet a lot of people in our society don't seem to have gotten that memo.

[Kris]

We can disparage all white men safely because no  one will cry "racist" when you disparage the entire white male population of the U.S.  If we did that to any other race...

As to all of Gin's raging about rape, I don't have the answers to the questions asked.  I don't rape, I do speak out against sexism and racism and homophobia, but because I'm a white man, I somehow bear responsibility for all the imagined and real slights ever committed by the white man.  Men (and women) of all colors commit rape, but the only race we can safely objectify and vilify is the white race.  More white privilege I guess.

I'm glad you agree that stereotyping and placing blame on all white men based on the actions of many, many white men doesn't make sense. The point, delivered through sarcasm on my part, is that this doesn't make sense for other races, religions or creeds either. Yet a lot of people in our society don't seem to have gotten that memo.

I do find it interesting that most of the time I hear/see people making it a point to be very vocally against stereotyping of white men, I generally do not see those same people being as vocally against stereotyping of other groups.  Odd.

[davisgang90]

We can disparage all white men safely because no  one will cry "racist" when you disparage the entire white male population of the U.S.  If we did that to any other race...

As to all of Gin's raging about rape, I don't have the answers to the questions asked.  I don't rape, I do speak out against sexism and racism and homophobia, but because I'm a white man, I somehow bear responsibility for all the imagined and real slights ever committed by the white man.  Men (and women) of all colors commit rape, but the only race we can safely objectify and vilify is the white race.  More white privilege I guess.

I'm glad you agree that stereotyping and placing blame on all white men based on the actions of many, many white men doesn't make sense. The point, delivered through sarcasm on my part, is that this doesn't make sense for other races, religions or creeds either. Yet a lot of people in our society don't seem to have gotten that memo.

I do find it interesting that most of the time I hear/see people making it a point to be very vocally against stereotyping of white men, I generally do not see those same people being as vocally against stereotyping of other groups.  Odd.

I'm against stereotyping in general.  Except people from Minnesota, they are the worst!  Know why Iowa doesn't have a professional football team?  Because then Minnesota would want one too!

[Kris]

We can disparage all white men safely because no  one will cry "racist" when you disparage the entire white male population of the U.S.  If we did that to any other race...

As to all of Gin's raging about rape, I don't have the answers to the questions asked.  I don't rape, I do speak out against sexism and racism and homophobia, but because I'm a white man, I somehow bear responsibility for all the imagined and real slights ever committed by the white man.  Men (and women) of all colors commit rape, but the only race we can safely objectify and vilify is the white race.  More white privilege I guess.

I'm glad you agree that stereotyping and placing blame on all white men based on the actions of many, many white men doesn't make sense. The point, delivered through sarcasm on my part, is that this doesn't make sense for other races, religions or creeds either. Yet a lot of people in our society don't seem to have gotten that memo.

I do find it interesting that most of the time I hear/see people making it a point to be very vocally against stereotyping of white men, I generally do not see those same people being as vocally against stereotyping of other groups.  Odd.

I'm against stereotyping in general.  Except people from Minnesota, they are the worst!  Know why Iowa doesn't have a professional football team?  Because then Minnesota would want one too!

Lol

[davisgang90]

Sorry about that Kris, that is my Dad's go to joke every time I visit him in Iowa.

[Kris]

Sorry about that Kris, that is my Dad's go to joke every time I visit him in Iowa.

No worries, man. I'm from Iowa originally, so I've heard these jokes from both sides for a long time! That's a good one, though!

[Scandium]

Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.

Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!

We really do need to have a conversation about "what's wrong with white men in the US?" So much racism, homophobia, misogyny. And violence. The fact that we need to have that conversation is not disparaging white men, because it is based on real issue that we as a society ignore.

Is it that they see minorities, women, and LGBT folks as whittling away their precious privilege? It is not uncommon to hear the phrases "our women" and "our country." The sense of ownership is probably also not uncommon.

Yes, yes, #NotAllWhiteMen, if that needs to be said.

So since you agree it isn't #AllWhiteMen, what percentage do you think are the issue?  90%? 60%?  Genuinely curious.  Also if you refer to white men condescendingly (as you did) aren't you disparaging them?  I'm a white guy who isn't racist, isn't afraid of homosexuals, treats my spouse (and all females) as equals and hasn't engaged in any violence, I really feel like I'm missing something.

It is a relief to hear that men of other races don't suffer from any of the above mentioned sins.  I really hope we can square away all the white guys.

Please tell me, exactly, what you think is condescending about about what I said.  What is the rate of rapists in this country, do you know?  How many rapists are repeat rapists, any idea?  Have you ever spoken up when you see sexism?  Or racism?  Or homophobia?  Have your male friends?
I have a lot of male friends who would say they are not sexist, yet until the #Yesallwomen, not one had ever thought to speak up when those occurred and yet, those are exactly the people that need to speak up because those are who will be listened to.  Do you know that women are taught to say, I have a boyfriend, or I'm married instead of no, when she is bothered by a guy, regardless if she is, because it is safer and the guy is more likely to go away if he think she "belongs" to man.  This is a culture issue among white males in the US.  You might be the 1:100 of men who has not done any racist, sexist or homophobic things, it possible, but more likely you are not aware of those things because you never had to.  Until recently, have you ever had to defend being a Christian, white male? 
How many of the mass shooting have been done by males, how many have been white males?  And what commonalities do you see in those men and the average white man.  From where I sit, I see quite a few.

I'm confused here, but what exactly is it you want me to do? I happen to have the same skin pigmentation, and chromosome type as this violent and raping group (supposedly). No matter how I read what you wrote it sounds like you think I'm somewhat responsible for the actions of other people in my (arbitrarily defined) group? Because our skin is the same color? Does that give me some unique ability to control the actions of people with the same skin color?

What does "speak out" mean, really? I'd like to think I would stop a rape, but  I haven't seen one. So then what? Should I post on facebook that I think rape is wrong? I'd like to think people already know I think so. Same with violence. I haven't hurt anyone, and don't see any violence in my daily life so not sure what I'm supposed to do about it. Yet due to my lack of tan it's apparently my responsibility?

Forgive my racial ignorance here, but what exactly are the commonalities between mass-shooting white men and myself (the average white man). I'm not christian, but what else?

[nobodyspecial]

I'm confused here, but what exactly is it you want me to do? I happen to have the same skin pigmentation, and chromosome type as this violent and raping group (supposedly).

Next time the white elite call you and say "we are thinking of invading country X or mistreating group Y and we were just calling all the other white guys to make sure they are ok with it - remember to say no"

[Scandium]

I'm confused here, but what exactly is it you want me to do? I happen to have the same skin pigmentation, and chromosome type as this violent and raping group (supposedly).

Next time the white elite call you and say "we are thinking of invading country X or mistreating group Y and we were just calling all the other white guys to make sure they are ok with it - remember to say no"

Right, of course. I'll also remember to vote "don't be homophobes" at the next white dudes annual congress.

[Gin1984]

Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.

Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!

We really do need to have a conversation about "what's wrong with white men in the US?" So much racism, homophobia, misogyny. And violence. The fact that we need to have that conversation is not disparaging white men, because it is based on real issue that we as a society ignore.

Is it that they see minorities, women, and LGBT folks as whittling away their precious privilege? It is not uncommon to hear the phrases "our women" and "our country." The sense of ownership is probably also not uncommon.

Yes, yes, #NotAllWhiteMen, if that needs to be said.

So since you agree it isn't #AllWhiteMen, what percentage do you think are the issue?  90%? 60%?  Genuinely curious.  Also if you refer to white men condescendingly (as you did) aren't you disparaging them?  I'm a white guy who isn't racist, isn't afraid of homosexuals, treats my spouse (and all females) as equals and hasn't engaged in any violence, I really feel like I'm missing something.

It is a relief to hear that men of other races don't suffer from any of the above mentioned sins.  I really hope we can square away all the white guys.

Please tell me, exactly, what you think is condescending about about what I said.  What is the rate of rapists in this country, do you know?  How many rapists are repeat rapists, any idea?  Have you ever spoken up when you see sexism?  Or racism?  Or homophobia?  Have your male friends?
I have a lot of male friends who would say they are not sexist, yet until the #Yesallwomen, not one had ever thought to speak up when those occurred and yet, those are exactly the people that need to speak up because those are who will be listened to.  Do you know that women are taught to say, I have a boyfriend, or I'm married instead of no, when she is bothered by a guy, regardless if she is, because it is safer and the guy is more likely to go away if he think she "belongs" to man.  This is a culture issue among white males in the US.  You might be the 1:100 of men who has not done any racist, sexist or homophobic things, it possible, but more likely you are not aware of those things because you never had to.  Until recently, have you ever had to defend being a Christian, white male? 
How many of the mass shooting have been done by males, how many have been white males?  And what commonalities do you see in those men and the average white man.  From where I sit, I see quite a few.

I'm confused here, but what exactly is it you want me to do? I happen to have the same skin pigmentation, and chromosome type as this violent and raping group (supposedly). No matter how I read what you wrote it sounds like you think I'm somewhat responsible for the actions of other people in my (arbitrarily defined) group? Because our skin is the same color? Does that give me some unique ability to control the actions of people with the same skin color?

What does "speak out" mean, really? I'd like to think I would stop a rape, but  I haven't seen one. So then what? Should I post on facebook that I think rape is wrong? I'd like to think people already know I think so. Same with violence. I haven't hurt anyone, and don't see any violence in my daily life so not sure what I'm supposed to do about it. Yet due to my lack of tan it's apparently my responsibility?

Forgive my racial ignorance here, but what exactly are the commonalities between mass-shooting white men and myself (the average white man). I'm not christian, but what else?

Actually when my male friends speak up about violence against women on Facebook, they do get listened to and responded to a lot more than when women post about it.  Have you never heard about what you can do as an ally?  I find that odd. 
Speak out means that when one makes a racist comment, I say something.  When a coworker called something gay, I spoke out.  Do you never, ever, see people being sexist, racist or homophobic.  I doubt it. 
How about this, go to twitter and check out #yesallwomen and then attempt to look around.  Be aware of what is happening around you.  There is a cultural issue at play here.  The attitude that makes a woman more likely to be left alone when she says "I have a boyfriend vs no I am not interested".  Or why men (and boys) complain about being friend zoned.  That complaint has implicit in it that you (general) are due her being sexual with you.  You see a lot of that, in an extreme way, in Elliot Rogers. 
I'm not saying it is your fault, I'm saying that the culture that we are in is unsafe and instead of pretending it is mental illness, we have a discussion of the culture that is bringing us these violent men.

[MgoSam]

Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.

Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!

We really do need to have a conversation about "what's wrong with white men in the US?" So much racism, homophobia, misogyny. And violence. The fact that we need to have that conversation is not disparaging white men, because it is based on real issue that we as a society ignore.

Is it that they see minorities, women, and LGBT folks as whittling away their precious privilege? It is not uncommon to hear the phrases "our women" and "our country." The sense of ownership is probably also not uncommon.

Yes, yes, #NotAllWhiteMen, if that needs to be said.

So since you agree it isn't #AllWhiteMen, what percentage do you think are the issue?  90%? 60%?  Genuinely curious.  Also if you refer to white men condescendingly (as you did) aren't you disparaging them?  I'm a white guy who isn't racist, isn't afraid of homosexuals, treats my spouse (and all females) as equals and hasn't engaged in any violence, I really feel like I'm missing something.

It is a relief to hear that men of other races don't suffer from any of the above mentioned sins.  I really hope we can square away all the white guys.

Please tell me, exactly, what you think is condescending about about what I said.  What is the rate of rapists in this country, do you know?  How many rapists are repeat rapists, any idea?  Have you ever spoken up when you see sexism?  Or racism?  Or homophobia?  Have your male friends?
I have a lot of male friends who would say they are not sexist, yet until the #Yesallwomen, not one had ever thought to speak up when those occurred and yet, those are exactly the people that need to speak up because those are who will be listened to.  Do you know that women are taught to say, I have a boyfriend, or I'm married instead of no, when she is bothered by a guy, regardless if she is, because it is safer and the guy is more likely to go away if he think she "belongs" to man.  This is a culture issue among white males in the US.  You might be the 1:100 of men who has not done any racist, sexist or homophobic things, it possible, but more likely you are not aware of those things because you never had to.  Until recently, have you ever had to defend being a Christian, white male? 
How many of the mass shooting have been done by males, how many have been white males?  And what commonalities do you see in those men and the average white man.  From where I sit, I see quite a few.

I'm confused here, but what exactly is it you want me to do? I happen to have the same skin pigmentation, and chromosome type as this violent and raping group (supposedly). No matter how I read what you wrote it sounds like you think I'm somewhat responsible for the actions of other people in my (arbitrarily defined) group? Because our skin is the same color? Does that give me some unique ability to control the actions of people with the same skin color?

What does "speak out" mean, really? I'd like to think I would stop a rape, but  I haven't seen one. So then what? Should I post on facebook that I think rape is wrong? I'd like to think people already know I think so. Same with violence. I haven't hurt anyone, and don't see any violence in my daily life so not sure what I'm supposed to do about it. Yet due to my lack of tan it's apparently my responsibility?

Forgive my racial ignorance here, but what exactly are the commonalities between mass-shooting white men and myself (the average white man). I'm not christian, but what else?

Actually when my male friends speak up about violence against women on Facebook, they do get listened to and responded to a lot more than when women post about it.  Have you never heard about what you can do as an ally?  I find that odd. 
Speak out means that when one makes a racist comment, I say something.  When a coworker called something gay, I spoke out.  Do you never, ever, see people being sexist, racist or homophobic.  I doubt it. 
How about this, go to twitter and check out #yesallwomen and then attempt to look around.  Be aware of what is happening around you.  There is a cultural issue at play here.  The attitude that makes a woman more likely to be left alone when she says "I have a boyfriend vs no I am not interested".  Or why men (and boys) complain about being friend zoned.  That complaint has implicit in it that you (general) are due her being sexual with you.  You see a lot of that, in an extreme way, in Elliot Rogers. 
I'm not saying it is your fault, I'm saying that the culture that we are in is unsafe and instead of pretending it is mental illness, we have a discussion of the culture that is bringing us these violent men.

Yeah I agree. I will admit that I have used the term "gay" as an insult many years ago, and it was being called out on it that led to me changing. Many times those around us will make a sexist or racist comment and think little of it, unless they are called out by a friend or someone that they care about. Oftentimes, they won't have seen their comment or action as being wrong, as it is something that they normally do. I try to be the change I want to see in the world, and I would recommend that we all do the same.

[Scandium]

Please tell me, exactly, what you think is condescending about about what I said.  What is the rate of rapists in this country, do you know?  How many rapists are repeat rapists, any idea?  Have you ever spoken up when you see sexism?  Or racism?  Or homophobia?  Have your male friends?
I have a lot of male friends who would say they are not sexist, yet until the #Yesallwomen, not one had ever thought to speak up when those occurred and yet, those are exactly the people that need to speak up because those are who will be listened to.  Do you know that women are taught to say, I have a boyfriend, or I'm married instead of no, when she is bothered by a guy, regardless if she is, because it is safer and the guy is more likely to go away if he think she "belongs" to man.  This is a culture issue among white males in the US.  You might be the 1:100 of men who has not done any racist, sexist or homophobic things, it possible, but more likely you are not aware of those things because you never had to.  Until recently, have you ever had to defend being a Christian, white male? 
How many of the mass shooting have been done by males, how many have been white males?  And what commonalities do you see in those men and the average white man.  From where I sit, I see quite a few.

I'm confused here, but what exactly is it you want me to do? I happen to have the same skin pigmentation, and chromosome type as this violent and raping group (supposedly). No matter how I read what you wrote it sounds like you think I'm somewhat responsible for the actions of other people in my (arbitrarily defined) group? Because our skin is the same color? Does that give me some unique ability to control the actions of people with the same skin color?

What does "speak out" mean, really? I'd like to think I would stop a rape, but  I haven't seen one. So then what? Should I post on facebook that I think rape is wrong? I'd like to think people already know I think so. Same with violence. I haven't hurt anyone, and don't see any violence in my daily life so not sure what I'm supposed to do about it. Yet due to my lack of tan it's apparently my responsibility?

Forgive my racial ignorance here, but what exactly are the commonalities between mass-shooting white men and myself (the average white man). I'm not christian, but what else?

Actually when my male friends speak up about violence against women on Facebook, they do get listened to and responded to a lot more than when women post about it.  Have you never heard about what you can do as an ally?  I find that odd. 
Speak out means that when one makes a racist comment, I say something.  When a coworker called something gay, I spoke out.  Do you never, ever, see people being sexist, racist or homophobic.  I doubt it. 
How about this, go to twitter and check out #yesallwomen and then attempt to look around.  Be aware of what is happening around you.  There is a cultural issue at play here.  The attitude that makes a woman more likely to be left alone when she says "I have a boyfriend vs no I am not interested".  Or why men (and boys) complain about being friend zoned.  That complaint has implicit in it that you (general) are due her being sexual with you.  You see a lot of that, in an extreme way, in Elliot Rogers. 
I'm not saying it is your fault, I'm saying that the culture that we are in is unsafe and instead of pretending it is mental illness, we have a discussion of the culture that is bringing us these violent men.

Even if this is effective, which i doubt (rapist know what they do is wrong already), I reject the notion that I'm somehow am responsible for the actions of others just because our skin pigmentation is similar. If someone is a racist, then they are. I'm not going to change their mind. It's as unlikely as them convince me to become a racist.

I believe in personal responsibility. Despite my (apparent) white man urge to harm women and people in general, I try to resist it and hope to instill the same in my son. That's as far as my responsibility goes. I expect nothing from society, and I owe it nothing. I think the culture sucks (and people in general suck), but it's not of my making. In fact I do as much as I can to avoid participating in "culture", as I think most people here do. This is a minority group after all. The majority shape culture.   

I'm not on twitter so have no idea what this allwomen thing is. Told you I don't follow pop culture.

[Gin1984]

Please tell me, exactly, what you think is condescending about about what I said.  What is the rate of rapists in this country, do you know?  How many rapists are repeat rapists, any idea?  Have you ever spoken up when you see sexism?  Or racism?  Or homophobia?  Have your male friends?
I have a lot of male friends who would say they are not sexist, yet until the #Yesallwomen, not one had ever thought to speak up when those occurred and yet, those are exactly the people that need to speak up because those are who will be listened to.  Do you know that women are taught to say, I have a boyfriend, or I'm married instead of no, when she is bothered by a guy, regardless if she is, because it is safer and the guy is more likely to go away if he think she "belongs" to man.  This is a culture issue among white males in the US.  You might be the 1:100 of men who has not done any racist, sexist or homophobic things, it possible, but more likely you are not aware of those things because you never had to.  Until recently, have you ever had to defend being a Christian, white male? 
How many of the mass shooting have been done by males, how many have been white males?  And what commonalities do you see in those men and the average white man.  From where I sit, I see quite a few.

I'm confused here, but what exactly is it you want me to do? I happen to have the same skin pigmentation, and chromosome type as this violent and raping group (supposedly). No matter how I read what you wrote it sounds like you think I'm somewhat responsible for the actions of other people in my (arbitrarily defined) group? Because our skin is the same color? Does that give me some unique ability to control the actions of people with the same skin color?

What does "speak out" mean, really? I'd like to think I would stop a rape, but  I haven't seen one. So then what? Should I post on facebook that I think rape is wrong? I'd like to think people already know I think so. Same with violence. I haven't hurt anyone, and don't see any violence in my daily life so not sure what I'm supposed to do about it. Yet due to my lack of tan it's apparently my responsibility?

Forgive my racial ignorance here, but what exactly are the commonalities between mass-shooting white men and myself (the average white man). I'm not christian, but what else?

Actually when my male friends speak up about violence against women on Facebook, they do get listened to and responded to a lot more than when women post about it.  Have you never heard about what you can do as an ally?  I find that odd. 
Speak out means that when one makes a racist comment, I say something.  When a coworker called something gay, I spoke out.  Do you never, ever, see people being sexist, racist or homophobic.  I doubt it. 
How about this, go to twitter and check out #yesallwomen and then attempt to look around.  Be aware of what is happening around you.  There is a cultural issue at play here.  The attitude that makes a woman more likely to be left alone when she says "I have a boyfriend vs no I am not interested".  Or why men (and boys) complain about being friend zoned.  That complaint has implicit in it that you (general) are due her being sexual with you.  You see a lot of that, in an extreme way, in Elliot Rogers. 
I'm not saying it is your fault, I'm saying that the culture that we are in is unsafe and instead of pretending it is mental illness, we have a discussion of the culture that is bringing us these violent men.

Even if this is effective, which i doubt (rapist know what they do is wrong already), I reject the notion that I'm somehow am responsible for the actions of others just because our skin pigmentation is similar. I believe in personal responsibility. Despite my (apparent) white man urge to harm women and people in general, I try to resist it and hope to instill the same in my son. That's as far as my responsibility goes. I expect nothing from society, and I owe it nothing. I think the culture sucks, but it's not of my making. In fact I do as much as I can to avoid participating in "culture", as I think most people here do. This is a minority group after all. 

I'm not on twitter so have no idea what this allwomen thing is. Told you I don't follow pop culture.

Actually most rapists don't consider themselves rapists.  When researchers investigated they found that if they asked males if they had raped they got a no, when they asked actions of rape or attempted rape like, have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone even though they did not want to, 6% answered yes.  So no, many don't consider what they are doing as wrong and given that we are all a part of society and are benefiting from it, we do have a responsibility to deal with this.

[MgoSam]

I reject the notion that I'm somehow am responsible for the actions of others just because our skin pigmentation is similar. I believe in personal responsibility.

I agree, wouldn't it suck to be judged on the basis of one's skin? This is why I am against profiling. This is why I hate that someone like Chris Rock gets pulled over multiple times each month for driving a Mercedes, and when he complains, the comment he hears is something along the lines of, "That's what you get for driving a nice guy, why don't you just shut up and buy a Prius."

[vivophoenix]

this whole thread went nuts.

so anyway, tithing is an ancient form of establishing a fund for a community. if you don't agree, don't tithe.

i think people get wrapped up in the idea that only churches tithe.

if you voluntarily give any money to a business or organizing for them to serve a population, you tithe.  I tithe to planned parenthood, my alma mater, and to holiday parties in exchange for booze tickets.

[RetiredAt63]

I used to be so thankful my great-great-great-grandparents left Ireland for Canada.

And we lived through the FLQ.

Every era has terrorists.

but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim.
On behalf of a country where IRA doesn't mean Roth we would like to thank all the Americans in Boston for supporting NORAID

[Wilson Hall]

this whole thread went nuts.

so anyway, tithing is an ancient form of establishing a fund for a community. if you don't agree, don't tithe.

i think people get wrapped up in the idea that only churches tithe.

if you voluntarily give any money to a business or organizing for them to serve a population, you tithe.  I tithe to planned parenthood, my alma mater, and to holiday parties in exchange for booze tickets.

Indeed it did. This is why I recently unfollowed a bunch friends on FB who were posting about politics nonstop. These are folks with whom I mostly agree on the basic principles, but the virtual yelling was too much. Screaming at people don't already share your beliefs won't usually sway them to your point of view, but it will alienate some of us who do.

Vivophoenix, I'm with you on this. I've given to my church, alma mater, and groups under the United Way umbrella, plus volunteered for organizations like Meals on Wheels and Habitat for Humanity. But fundraisers with booze tickets are the best.  ;)

[RetiredAt63]

I like this definition of tithing - I also tithe to a bunch of things, under this outlook.

Wilson Hall, nice fundraiser dinners with silent auctions are good, too. 

this whole thread went nuts.

so anyway, tithing is an ancient form of establishing a fund for a community. if you don't agree, don't tithe.

i think people get wrapped up in the idea that only churches tithe.

if you voluntarily give any money to a business or organizing for them to serve a population, you tithe.  I tithe to planned parenthood, my alma mater, and to holiday parties in exchange for booze tickets.

Vivophoenix, I'm with you on this. I've given to my church, alma mater, and groups under the United Way umbrella, plus volunteered for organizations like Meals on Wheels and Habitat for Humanity. But fundraisers with booze tickets are the best.  ;)

[foobar]

Yes, I also don't like the mortgage interest deduction. I am definitely against it, as opposed to my ambivalent feelings about the charitable contribution deduction. Why should we favor home buyers versus home renters? Or subsidize people to buy more expensive houses? Or subsidize people for holding debt? It is also a deduction that benefits the higher income earners more than the lower income earners.

It should be pointed that renters also get tax deductible interest and property taxes. Without them, the landlord would need to charge more rent. 

Personally I worry more about the deductibiity of state income tax (no point in people in another state subsidizing certain tax payers), the exclusion of health insurance (distorts the market when you are better off paying 2k in insurance premiums than 1500 out of pocket.), 0% LTGC bracket (basically a handout to upper middle class people. Poor people don't have capital gains), and a things like 401(k) (again basically just subsidy for the upper middle class).

[prudent_one]

Our church talks about giving once a year - at a meeting where the budget for the next year is shown line by line and the congregation votes to accept or modify. I've held many offices in the church (elder, deacon, chairman) and never once in any meeting have I heard talk about who gives what.  If there is a special need, the need is made known and some people give, others don't.  This summer we're working to come up with 75 backpacks full of school supplies to give to the school-age children of women living in a shelter.

I love that about our church - let needs be known but do not talk about who gives (and how much). Never any "recognition" for big donors. What people give is what they feel led to give, and not because they are going to get any public kudos.  So tithing to our church resonates with me - I see every budget item, I see that they are not wasteful, and there is no other motivation other than to help meet needs in the community and in the church family.

[Elderwood17]

Our church almost never talks about money.  No basket is passed, just a box on a table in the back. Once in a while a special need is made known fans those that want to help can.  No pressure, but then no fancy building and most things get done on a shoestring budget.  I like it that way.

[Amasa]

We should not be giving because we HAVE to (which is what the Old Testament Law was), but because we WANT to.  Christians should have the attitude that God has blessed us with so much, we want to give as much as we can to help others.

This is the fundamental Christian teaching about giving. 10% is great if you WANT to. Nothing is great if you WANT to. Give out of an honest desire to give.

I like these verses:

2 Corinthians 9:7
Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

and

Psalms 51:16-17
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
    you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit;
    a broken and contrite heart
    you, God, will not despise.

And, as per the article's warning, the above verses are in context here. They hold up their perceived meaning when looked at with their surrounding chapters.

[EricP]

I strongly support nonprofit status for churches and other nonprofits who meet the purpose and intent of the law - to do good for people and not seek power and profit. All others can pay the man.

Nonprofit status for sure. It was just the tax deduction for donations that I'm unsure about--but mostly for giving that's self-interested.

Isn't this the plot of a Friends episode?  That all giving is somewhat self-interested?

[MgoSam]

Our church almost never talks about money.  No basket is passed, just a box on a table in the back. Once in a while a special need is made known fans those that want to help can.  No pressure, but then no fancy building and most things get done on a shoestring budget.  I like it that way.

I like that.

[EricP]

Yes, I also don't like the mortgage interest deduction. I am definitely against it, as opposed to my ambivalent feelings about the charitable contribution deduction. Why should we favor home buyers versus home renters? Or subsidize people to buy more expensive houses? Or subsidize people for holding debt? It is also a deduction that benefits the higher income earners more than the lower income earners.

It should be pointed that renters also get tax deductible interest and property taxes. Without them, the landlord would need to charge more rent. 

Personally I worry more about the deductibiity of state income tax (no point in people in another state subsidizing certain tax payers), the exclusion of health insurance (distorts the market when you are better off paying 2k in insurance premiums than 1500 out of pocket.), 0% LTGC bracket (basically a handout to upper middle class people. Poor people don't have capital gains), and a things like 401(k) (again basically just subsidy for the upper middle class).

What exactly do you consider "upper middle class?"  Because if 0% Long Term Capital Gains benefit them, than it's pretty low.  And, honestly, I doubt many people make use of it.  Very few individuals will invest outside of retirement accounts and their personal houses.

As for 401ks being a subsidy to only "upper middle class," it's a subsidy to anyone who plans ahead, and personally I'm more than okay with that.  It also reduces Medicare/Medicaid costs in the future and makes Social Security being underfunded less of a liability.

If there's one thing that benefits the Upper Middle Class more than anything, it's the Home Mortgage Interest Deduction.  No one needs that to afford a house, for most people who can't afford houses, it's their bad credit or their lack of a down payment that is preventing them, not the monthly payments.  It is a stupid vote-buying deduction that needs to disappear.

Not quite sure what you mean by Exclusion of Health Insurance, so I can't respond.

[zephyr911]

I assume that means deductible health savings plans, or exclusions for premiums that are deducted from pay (I think mine are).

[the_fella]

I just saved a bunch of money on tithing by switching to atheism.

[forummm]

Yes, I also don't like the mortgage interest deduction. I am definitely against it, as opposed to my ambivalent feelings about the charitable contribution deduction. Why should we favor home buyers versus home renters? Or subsidize people to buy more expensive houses? Or subsidize people for holding debt? It is also a deduction that benefits the higher income earners more than the lower income earners.

It should be pointed that renters also get tax deductible interest and property taxes. Without them, the landlord would need to charge more rent. 

Personally I worry more about the deductibiity of state income tax (no point in people in another state subsidizing certain tax payers), the exclusion of health insurance (distorts the market when you are better off paying 2k in insurance premiums than 1500 out of pocket.), 0% LTGC bracket (basically a handout to upper middle class people. Poor people don't have capital gains), and a things like 401(k) (again basically just subsidy for the upper middle class).

What exactly do you consider "upper middle class?"  Because if 0% Long Term Capital Gains benefit them, than it's pretty low.  And, honestly, I doubt many people make use of it.  Very few individuals will invest outside of retirement accounts and their personal houses.

As for 401ks being a subsidy to only "upper middle class," it's a subsidy to anyone who plans ahead, and personally I'm more than okay with that.  It also reduces Medicare/Medicaid costs in the future and makes Social Security being underfunded less of a liability.

If there's one thing that benefits the Upper Middle Class more than anything, it's the Home Mortgage Interest Deduction.  No one needs that to afford a house, for most people who can't afford houses, it's their bad credit or their lack of a down payment that is preventing them, not the monthly payments.  It is a stupid vote-buying deduction that needs to disappear.

Not quite sure what you mean by Exclusion of Health Insurance, so I can't respond.

If someone is retired and living off their dividends and their selectively taken CGs and the non-taxed proceeds of asset sales, and still able to have ~$90k taxable from investments, that person could easily be a multimillionaire.

Due to the progressive tax code, anything that's a deduction from your income (like 401k or mortgage interest) disproportionately benefits the higher earners.

[foobar]

Yes, I also don't like the mortgage interest deduction. I am definitely against it, as opposed to my ambivalent feelings about the charitable contribution deduction. Why should we favor home buyers versus home renters? Or subsidize people to buy more expensive houses? Or subsidize people for holding debt? It is also a deduction that benefits the higher income earners more than the lower income earners.

It should be pointed that renters also get tax deductible interest and property taxes. Without them, the landlord would need to charge more rent. 

Personally I worry more about the deductibiity of state income tax (no point in people in another state subsidizing certain tax payers), the exclusion of health insurance (distorts the market when you are better off paying 2k in insurance premiums than 1500 out of pocket.), 0% LTGC bracket (basically a handout to upper middle class people. Poor people don't have capital gains), and a things like 401(k) (again basically just subsidy for the upper middle class).

What exactly do you consider "upper middle class?"  Because if 0% Long Term Capital Gains benefit them, than it's pretty low.  And, honestly, I doubt many people make use of it.  Very few individuals will invest outside of retirement accounts and their personal houses.

As for 401ks being a subsidy to only "upper middle class," it's a subsidy to anyone who plans ahead, and personally I'm more than okay with that.  It also reduces Medicare/Medicaid costs in the future and makes Social Security being underfunded less of a liability.

If there's one thing that benefits the Upper Middle Class more than anything, it's the Home Mortgage Interest Deduction.  No one needs that to afford a house, for most people who can't afford houses, it's their bad credit or their lack of a down payment that is preventing them, not the monthly payments.  It is a stupid vote-buying deduction that needs to disappear.

Not quite sure what you mean by Exclusion of Health Insurance, so I can't respond.

Exclusion of health insurance from income. You get to have 10k of income and pay 0 dollars in tax.  For middle class people paying 15%, they save 1500. For the upper middle class paying 28%, they save 2800. That continues throughout all of the stuff. Saving 15% on a 401(k) is nice. Saving 28% is much better.  If you look at who pays capital gains, very few working middle class people do. It is upper class people and retirees. It is awesome that you can have an uppder middle class 100k of income  (say something like 30k of SS 70k of LTGC) and pay 0 in taxes.  The middle class couple making 50k and paying 3k more in federal taxes (+ 4k tax in SS) might feel differently though about how the tax burden is distributed.

[projekt]

Word of warning: I and many others on the internet automatically ignore any post full of capitalized phrases on the grounds that it is probably uninteresting ranting. Just a heads up that it's not a good style to follow.

[boarder42]

i'm on the page that churches should no longer be non for profit.  Very few churches use all that money to help the poor like they did in the past.  Most use it to recruit more people.  Its one big giant recruitment ponzi scheme. 

you live
you die
its over.

Dont know how thats so hard to understand

If you want to help people give your time its infinitely more valuable to you and those being helped. 

[forummm]

If you want to help people give your time its infinitely more valuable to you and those being helped. 

Quite often, it's far more beneficial to give your money. You have spent your life maximizing your return on your time, so you're able to maximize your value by earning money doing one particular thing. At the same time, some other person has been maximizing their value in providing XYZ skillset that your intended charitable concern needs. So you can generally get much more "good" done by working and donating your money so the charity can hire some XYZ specialists and make the "good" happen. Volunteering your time directly can feel more fulfilling. But volunteering your time by working at your job and donating the money is generally more effective. YMMV.

[RetiredAt63]

Not sure what you were referring to?  If I am discussing RRSPs I will use caps since they are Registered Retirement Savings Plans (non-Canadian readers may not know what an RRSP is, so I will write it out in full once, for clarity).  I know IRAs are an American retirement plan, but would have to look the term up to know what the letters stand for. At least if it is IRA, not ira, I know it is an acronym and can look it up.  On the other hand, many acronyms have entered common usage, so I doubt anyone types SCUBA anymore, they are more likely to type scuba.

TL:DR - One person's annoyance may be another persons' "good usage".

Word of warning: I and many others on the internet automatically ignore any post full of capitalized phrases on the grounds that it is probably uninteresting ranting. Just a heads up that it's not a good style to follow.

[zephyr911]

Word of warning: I and many others on the internet automatically ignore any post full of capitalized phrases on the grounds that it is probably uninteresting ranting. Just a heads up that it's not a good style to follow.

What are you talking about? If that was a response to a post up-thread, you might want to consider using the "quote" button....

[maco]

The perceived need for exclusive access to space means you get very small congregations (I'm talking about a dozen families or fewer) paying an inordinate amount of money to rent space. It takes up a large portion of their income, and creates a need for constant fundraising. A lot of the time, that turns into pressure on the congregation to donate.

We have two local Quaker Meetings that are that small. One rents a room in a dance studio on Sunday mornings (Charismatics rent the next room over, which can be a little disruptive, but they only overlap by like 15 minutes). The other meets in living rooms.

And pivoting... most Amish churches meet in members' living rooms on a rotating basis. The only ones I've heard of that have meeting houses are the ones in Somerset Co, PA.

[projekt]

Oops, I must have thought that my response was going to end up in proximity to the one I replied to which appears to actually be very far back!

I meant those posts where words are unnecessarily CAPITALIZED as though the READER needs special help to UNDERSTAND the author's HIGHLY URGENT point.

99 times out of 100 such posts are rantings that contribute little to the discussion. I was just trying to helpfully warn that it is not as useful of a style as the author might suppose, because people like me ignore them.

Word of warning: I and many others on the internet automatically ignore any post full of capitalized phrases on the grounds that it is probably uninteresting ranting. Just a heads up that it's not a good style to follow.

What are you talking about? If that was a response to a post up-thread, you might want to consider using the "quote" button....

[DeltaBond]

Alrighty then, I was going to share a little about my recent conversion from Buddhist to Catholic and my take on tithing... now I'm seeing racist issues come up... seems this would be more of a thread for religious jokes.  Anyone know how copper wire was invented?  A Jew and a Swiss person fighting over a penny.

ANYWAY, I don't tithe, just because the Catholic church, mainly my parish, is not hurting for money.  I give a little each week, and by a little, I'm talking $5, $10.  They do have to keep the lights on anyway, and I like that there is AC in there.  If you're really involved in the community and you have seen where the money goes and have felt reassured and assisted during tough times in your life, its natural to want to tithe.  If someone doesn't want to, I wouldn't fault them for it.

[Nangirl17]

My church does so much to help the needy that I have absolutely no qualms about tithing.  The church helped me when I went through hard times and makes me feel good to know that I am paying that forward.

+1 for both statements

[zephyr911]

Oops, I must have thought that my response was going to end up in proximity to the one I replied to which appears to actually be very far back!

I'm assuming by now you've figured out how these threads work. :)

I meant those posts where words are unnecessarily CAPITALIZED as though the READER needs special help to UNDERSTAND the author's HIGHLY URGENT point.

99 times out of 100 such posts are rantings that contribute little to the discussion. I was just trying to helpfully warn that it is not as useful of a style as the author might suppose, because people like me ignore them.

Yep.

[LiveLean]

When we bought our home 16 years ago, it came with the added bonus of being walking distance to what would be our (Catholic) church.

It has been a non-stop shakedown for money. Five capital campaigns. They built a school and remodeled every building on what already was a sprawling campus. We grew up Catholic in parishes that had built churches, but this has been insane and driven us away. The third capital campaign was launched in November 2008. Talk about tone deaf.

At one point, we had an awesome band for the Sunday night mass, mostly adults but a few teenagers. They played contemporary Christian music and rocked -- very progressive for a Catholic Church. But they liked to take summers off since the kids were out of school and attendance was light. The pastor, realizing the mass was so popular and generating $$$, "asked" them to go all year round. So they did, reluctantly. The final straw was when he insisted they not cancel mass for the Super Bowl as they usually did; mass was at 6 p.m. The band quit.

The last straw for us was during the last two capital campaigns when the pastor had flat screen TVs placed on all three sides of the altar so he could play a slick capital campaign video in place of his sermon. Apparently not enough people were attending the informational meetings.

I stayed loyal to the Catholic Church into my 40s despite four years of all-boys Catholic school taught by sadistic priests. But I'm done. If you're going to run your church like a business, then so am I. I'm taking my business elsewhere - or nowhere.

[trailperson]

When I was a college student I went to a church where in the beginning of the service they would bring buckets up to the front so you would have to get out of your seat and walk your offerings up to the front. I felt embarrassed sometimes when I was one of the few people left seated because I didn't have anything to give. That same church also taught that the more money you give to the church, the more God would reward you with financial success in your life. This church owned a cafe that employed some of the church members. As an example of how God rewards those who tithe, a church member who worked at the cafe was brought forward to share her testimony of how since she started tithing God had rewarded her by giving her a promotion at her work.

[MgoSam]

When I was a college student I went to a church where in the beginning of the service they would bring buckets up to the front so you would have to get out of your seat and walk your offerings up to the front. I felt embarrassed sometimes when I was one of the few people left seated because I didn't have anything to give. That same church also taught that the more money you give to the church, the more God would reward you with financial success in your life. This church owned a cafe that employed some of the church members. As an example of how God rewards those who tithe, a church member who worked at the cafe was brought forward to share her testimony of how since she started tithing God had rewarded her by giving her a promotion at her work.

'Run, don't walk,' was the thought that first crossed my mind. I understand why churches need to raise money, but this goes beyond that in my opinion and I would not stay.

[EricP]

The only time any of the churches I have gone to have discussed giving was at the Semiannual Business meeting where they would state how much we gave and if it's enough to pay the bills and such.  There would occasionally be sermons about tithing and giving, but I've never felt as though it was drumming up business, just talking about what the bible actually has to say about it and the spiritual meaning of it.

I guess one time our minister had a "Save Dimes for the orphanage in Sri Lanka" sermon, but I see that as much different as 100% of those donations were going straight to the charity not to pay for his salary or keep the lights on.

[trailperson]

When I was a college student I went to a church where in the beginning of the service they would bring buckets up to the front so you would have to get out of your seat and walk your offerings up to the front. I felt embarrassed sometimes when I was one of the few people left seated because I didn't have anything to give. That same church also taught that the more money you give to the church, the more God would reward you with financial success in your life. This church owned a cafe that employed some of the church members. As an example of how God rewards those who tithe, a church member who worked at the cafe was brought forward to share her testimony of how since she started tithing God had rewarded her by giving her a promotion at her work.

'Run, don't walk,' was the thought that first crossed my mind. I understand why churches need to raise money, but this goes beyond that in my opinion and I would not stay.

I didn't like a lot of their practices and I stopped going around the time they started asking people to pledge money to buy a building.

[MgoSam]

When I was a college student I went to a church where in the beginning of the service they would bring buckets up to the front so you would have to get out of your seat and walk your offerings up to the front. I felt embarrassed sometimes when I was one of the few people left seated because I didn't have anything to give. That same church also taught that the more money you give to the church, the more God would reward you with financial success in your life. This church owned a cafe that employed some of the church members. As an example of how God rewards those who tithe, a church member who worked at the cafe was brought forward to share her testimony of how since she started tithing God had rewarded her by giving her a promotion at her work.

'Run, don't walk,' was the thought that first crossed my mind. I understand why churches need to raise money, but this goes beyond that in my opinion and I would not stay.

I didn't like a lot of their practices and I stopped going around the time they started asking people to pledge money to buy a building.

Yeah, my church has bought a building and is in the process of renovating it. I have mixed feelings about it. I can understand that it can cost a lot to have everything being mobile (rent especially), but I am personally not a big fan. They've had multiple 'offerings,' where they've made announcements weeks in advance to ask for us to "Pray and ask God how much He wants you to give," that I'm not a huge fan of.

I stay because I love the church's sermons, and I'm happy to volunteer on the coffee ministry and value the fellowship of the members. I also appreciate the church's motto is, "Church doesn't begin until the service ends," and they stick to it. I'm part of a Bible study and various other groups and most of my friends come from it.

[Chris22]

this whole thread went nuts.

so anyway, tithing is an ancient form of establishing a fund for a community. if you don't agree, don't tithe.

i think people get wrapped up in the idea that only churches tithe.

if you voluntarily give any money to a business or organizing for them to serve a population, you tithe.  I tithe to planned parenthood, my alma mater, and to holiday parties in exchange for booze tickets.

Disagree, tithing, at least in my experience, has a very specific connotation that you OWE an organization a regular, fixed amount of money.  When I write an occasional $50 or $100 check to a charity in response to a pledge drive or whatever, that's a donation.  I don't OWE them anything, I'm just giving them money because I think they will do good with it.  Tithing, on the other hand, tells me it's my responsibility as a member of a specific community to give them a regular, fixed percentage of my earnings. 

Frankly, I usually am fairly free to give relatively small amounts of money on occasion (my $50 or $100 example above), but certain groups who play the "you gave $XXX last month, you should get $XXX+YYY this time" game piss me off, or groups that solicit very quickly after I just gave.  My alma mater actually pisses me off the most, with their suggestion I should give $100 for every year I've been out of school.  If they sent me a mailer and said "could you spare some money" or "could you send $50 or $100" I probably would, but for them to tell me I SHOULD be giving upwards of $1000, they can go piss up a rope.  And my alma mater is very, very wealthy.  They don't need the money. 

[Silverado]

I don't do church, but have allowed myself a few times to go with catholic family on the big catholic holidays (though not any more). It baffles me to see anyone, especially parents, give support to an organization that based on my small amount of research threw the cloak of "sorry god working in here no authorities are allowed" when it became clear their management was involved in decades of child abuse and rape. What if those crimes happened at any place that was more open, like a fortune 500 company? Would parents buy pampers if PG had such a scandal and thumbed their noses when it came out?

That church management was basically all white as well, so there, I mixed both topics in a single post.

[winterbike]

I don't do church, but have allowed myself a few times to go with catholic family on the big catholic holidays (though not any more). It baffles me to see anyone, especially parents, give support to an organization that based on my small amount of research threw the cloak of "sorry god working in here no authorities are allowed" when it became clear their management was involved in decades of child abuse and rape. What if those crimes happened at any place that was more open, like a fortune 500 company? Would parents buy pampers if PG had such a scandal and thumbed their noses when it came out?

That church management was basically all white as well, so there, I mixed both topics in a single post.

You there, stop it with the critical thinking. We're talking about religion here!

Seriously though, people still go to church? I go for Christmas because it makes my grandmother happy, but that's it. Every year there's less people too, I can't wait until they repurpose the place into something useful like a climbing centre.