Author Topic: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys  (Read 5348 times)

Livinginthemountains

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We got company the other day. They expressed to us they bought a used camper for $23,000. My reaction was "OH WOW! We always camp old school with a tent in the middle of wilderness and when we are done we pack it up throw it in the trunk and drive home. We dont have to clean it out when we get back or pay taxes and insurance on it." I mean I don't know how working people can spend this kind of cash on their toys that they only have time to use them on the weekends. It seems that everyone I know has a boat, camper trailer, side by side or some expensive toy or maybe even one of each that they have to pay taxes and insurance on and have a way to haul it and a place to store it in winter time. For the amount these things cost I would feel like I had to use it all the time to justify buying it. Plus as working person I don't know how they keep up with all their regular things meaning yard work, house work, relationships, and all the other things we have to do in everyday life. I wouldn't want to spend my week working to pay for all these things and then have all of them to clean and maintain on the weekends. 

Dusty Dog Ranch

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2017, 09:01:39 PM »
Yep. We have friends who just bought a new truck, a new UTV, and to top it off, a new 5th wheel. Oh, and a horse. They've got to have debt out the wazoo.

On the flip side, we really need to get something to reliably get us up our driveway in the winter and a UTV with tracks is looking like the best option. I check craigslist daily. Gives me heartburn thinking about dropping several thousand, but better that than five figures on a new one.

FINate

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 09:58:40 PM »
Are expensive toys bad? I think it depends.

For the 99% (or whatever the percentage is) of people financing purchases, yeah they are unequivocally bad. And they are expensive to maintain, which usually puts people further into the hole.

But it's not totally cut and dry. We recently sold our modest travel trailer - not as necessary now that the kids are older and we wanted to do a different style of camping. However, there's no way we (well, DW at least) would have taken our kids camping when they were infants/toddlers w/o the RV.  Insurance, maintenance, storage, depreciation penciled out to about $2000/year. Not cheap, but lots of great memories with the family that we wouldn't otherwise have and my kids have developed a taste for the outdoors and now love tent camping. We paid cash for the RV so no finance charges and were well on our way to FIRE at the time so we could afford it. And it's pretty common for people to spend more than $2k just on flights to destination vacations.

IMO it boils down to a two fold question:
  • Can you afford it? In other words, you can pay cash for it and the amount is noise as a percentage of your overall net worth, as in the value of your investments are likely to move by that much as the result of market gyrations over the course of a few months.
  • Will you get your money's worth? You're really going to use it a lot and enjoy it. About every 10 years I buy a new mountain bike...they are expensive, but I use it 3-4 times a week putting about 1500 miles/year on it, so for me spending $5k on a bike (incidentally, my portfolio goes up/down by this amount on an almost weekly basis) is worth it.

This applies to all non-essential purchases not just expensive toys. Vacations of all stripes. Vehicle purchases. Kitchen remodels...

The big irony for me, especially regarding mountain bikes, is knowing that the industry behind this hobby I love likely wouldn't exist and many of the wonderful technological innovations wouldn't have happened if most people had the same spending behavior.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 10:06:42 PM by FINate »

ixtap

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2017, 10:03:30 PM »
I bet some people thought that about us when we bought our  first boat. But then, we did use it just about every weekend and it helped us gain skills that we will need for our retirement plan.

The question is never whether or not someone else's choices are inline with your priorities, but whether or not their actions are inline with their own priorities.

Sailor Sam

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 10:35:34 PM »
I bet some people thought that about us when we bought our  first boat. But then, we did use it just about every weekend and it helped us gain skills that we will need for our retirement plan.

The question is never whether or not someone else's choices are inline with your priorities, but whether or not their actions are inline with their own priorities.

Dang, ixtap, that was really well stated. I wrote it down in my little booklet of quotes.

ixtap

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 10:56:18 PM »
I bet some people thought that about us when we bought our  first boat. But then, we did use it just about every weekend and it helped us gain skills that we will need for our retirement plan.

The question is never whether or not someone else's choices are inline with your priorities, but whether or not their actions are inline with their own priorities.

Dang, ixtap, that was really well stated. I wrote it down in my little booklet of quotes.

<blushes>

honeybbq

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2017, 09:57:28 AM »
I usually raise my eyebrow when there are multiples of toys. My SIL has nultiple boats (his and hers) and a trailer, and an endless pool, and home equity loans on a house they've lived in for more than 30 years.

I think *a* toy that reflects your passion is reasonable (RV, camper, motorcycle, boat) but when you start having ALL The toys... I start to wonder. Especially when the price of the toys start exceeding a cheap house...

thesvenster

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2017, 10:59:40 AM »
Here in Alaska it's not uncommon to see a 65k$ diesel truck hauling a $5k 2 axle trailer loaded with side by sides and ATVs (side by sides are 20k$ each). Wintertime, these guys have their very expensive snow machines loaded up. Seriously, I don't know how they afford that.

Me, I would like to save up for a good used ATV for fishing and hunting.

MgoSam

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2017, 11:54:29 AM »
Seriously, I don't know how they afford that.

I feel like the vast majority of the time the answer is THEY CANNOT AFFORD THAT.

I have a friend who lives pretty extravagantly and a few years ago when we were closer I asked her about it because I had a rough idea what she was paying (I have a couple friends that work with her who are the type that share their income) and her answer essentially was that she knew that she is hot and that she would marry well. She just got married a few months ago to a guy that I believe makes a decent income*, so I guess she won?

*I should add that the guy is a great guy

FINate

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2017, 12:06:11 PM »
Seriously, I don't know how they afford that.

I feel like the vast majority of the time the answer is THEY CANNOT AFFORD THAT.

I have a friend who lives pretty extravagantly and a few years ago when we were closer I asked her about it because I had a rough idea what she was paying (I have a couple friends that work with her who are the type that share their income) and her answer essentially was that she knew that she is hot and that she would marry well. She just got married a few months ago to a guy that I believe makes a decent income*, so I guess she won?

*I should add that the guy is a great guy

Poor guy :(

"Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting"

gardeningandgreen

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2017, 12:09:23 PM »
My family owns an RV business and a campground and has for 30+ years. Around 85% of the RVs are purchased with a loan. Some people use them all the time others spend $35000+ plus have a seasonal spot that they spend $3000+ on rent a year and they are there a couple weekends a year. I live in northern Minnesota so buying a camper and renting a spot on a lake is still much cheaper than buying a lake home. However, if you don't use it whats the point!

MgoSam

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2017, 12:40:44 PM »
Seriously, I don't know how they afford that.

I feel like the vast majority of the time the answer is THEY CANNOT AFFORD THAT.

I have a friend who lives pretty extravagantly and a few years ago when we were closer I asked her about it because I had a rough idea what she was paying (I have a couple friends that work with her who are the type that share their income) and her answer essentially was that she knew that she is hot and that she would marry well. She just got married a few months ago to a guy that I believe makes a decent income*, so I guess she won?

*I should add that the guy is a great guy

Poor guy :(

"Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting"

Rereading my comment I realize I made my friend out to be a shallow money-chaser. She's not, she's just got a more practical view of marriage after marrying a guy she fell in love with in high school and then later divorcing after reality set in that he's a manipulative and emotionally abusive a-hole a few years later. While she hoped to find someone that was affluent, I believe that wasn't a deal-breaker. I know that she dated someone that wasn't making a ton of money and it ended with both of them still being good friends.

The point I was trying to make is that I asked her about how she pays for all her expenses as on FB I'll see her post about going to concerts, vacations, daily coffee fits, frequent spa and other things. I was hoping to hear, "I budget for them," as I know some people that do extravagant things, but then eat at home every day to keep their spending under control.

mm1970

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2017, 01:08:09 PM »
We got company the other day. They expressed to us they bought a used camper for $23,000. My reaction was "OH WOW! We always camp old school with a tent in the middle of wilderness and when we are done we pack it up throw it in the trunk and drive home. We dont have to clean it out when we get back or pay taxes and insurance on it." I mean I don't know how working people can spend this kind of cash on their toys that they only have time to use them on the weekends. It seems that everyone I know has a boat, camper trailer, side by side or some expensive toy or maybe even one of each that they have to pay taxes and insurance on and have a way to haul it and a place to store it in winter time. For the amount these things cost I would feel like I had to use it all the time to justify buying it. Plus as working person I don't know how they keep up with all their regular things meaning yard work, house work, relationships, and all the other things we have to do in everyday life. I wouldn't want to spend my week working to pay for all these things and then have all of them to clean and maintain on the weekends.
I think it depends.

I like camping.  I like the idea of camping. We've taken the kids tent camping, even with the little one, when we set up the pack and play for him to sleep in.
But man, I'm old.  We've now graduated to cots for the adults.  Our backs cannot take hard ground or even air mattresses.

I would love something like a real bed in a camper or an RV.  I don't have any place to park an RV.  I do not have a car big enough to tow anything.  Should I buy an RV or car + camper?

Well, frankly, I don't have enough vacation time to make it worthwhile.  To camp around here, you need to book in advance, at least 6 months.  What a pain.

So for friends of mine, who have more flexible schedules - it may work.  They book ahead of time.  They go for 3-4 weeks every summer.  They take multiple long weekends during the year.

That's just not my life.

zoltani

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2017, 01:34:21 PM »
We got company the other day. They expressed to us they bought a used camper for $23,000. My reaction was "OH WOW! We always camp old school with a tent in the middle of wilderness and when we are done we pack it up throw it in the trunk and drive home. We dont have to clean it out when we get back or pay taxes and insurance on it." I mean I don't know how working people can spend this kind of cash on their toys that they only have time to use them on the weekends. It seems that everyone I know has a boat, camper trailer, side by side or some expensive toy or maybe even one of each that they have to pay taxes and insurance on and have a way to haul it and a place to store it in winter time. For the amount these things cost I would feel like I had to use it all the time to justify buying it. Plus as working person I don't know how they keep up with all their regular things meaning yard work, house work, relationships, and all the other things we have to do in everyday life. I wouldn't want to spend my week working to pay for all these things and then have all of them to clean and maintain on the weekends.
I think it depends.

I like camping.  I like the idea of camping. We've taken the kids tent camping, even with the little one, when we set up the pack and play for him to sleep in.
But man, I'm old.  We've now graduated to cots for the adults.  Our backs cannot take hard ground or even air mattresses.

I would love something like a real bed in a camper or an RV.  I don't have any place to park an RV.  I do not have a car big enough to tow anything.  Should I buy an RV or car + camper?

Well, frankly, I don't have enough vacation time to make it worthwhile.  To camp around here, you need to book in advance, at least 6 months.  What a pain.

So for friends of mine, who have more flexible schedules - it may work.  They book ahead of time.  They go for 3-4 weeks every summer.  They take multiple long weekends during the year.

That's just not my life.

Is there forest service or BLM land around you? If so you can disperse camp anywhere for up to 14 days. It can be more enjoyable depending on your tolerance for people and crowds. Personally I like to get away from people while camping and you can't do that in established campgrounds, so I prefer dispersed camping, plus no reservations required.
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MgoSam

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2017, 01:52:11 PM »
We got company the other day. They expressed to us they bought a used camper for $23,000. My reaction was "OH WOW! We always camp old school with a tent in the middle of wilderness and when we are done we pack it up throw it in the trunk and drive home. We dont have to clean it out when we get back or pay taxes and insurance on it." I mean I don't know how working people can spend this kind of cash on their toys that they only have time to use them on the weekends. It seems that everyone I know has a boat, camper trailer, side by side or some expensive toy or maybe even one of each that they have to pay taxes and insurance on and have a way to haul it and a place to store it in winter time. For the amount these things cost I would feel like I had to use it all the time to justify buying it. Plus as working person I don't know how they keep up with all their regular things meaning yard work, house work, relationships, and all the other things we have to do in everyday life. I wouldn't want to spend my week working to pay for all these things and then have all of them to clean and maintain on the weekends.
I think it depends.

I like camping.  I like the idea of camping. We've taken the kids tent camping, even with the little one, when we set up the pack and play for him to sleep in.
But man, I'm old.  We've now graduated to cots for the adults.  Our backs cannot take hard ground or even air mattresses.

I would love something like a real bed in a camper or an RV.  I don't have any place to park an RV.  I do not have a car big enough to tow anything.  Should I buy an RV or car + camper?

Well, frankly, I don't have enough vacation time to make it worthwhile.  To camp around here, you need to book in advance, at least 6 months.  What a pain.

So for friends of mine, who have more flexible schedules - it may work.  They book ahead of time.  They go for 3-4 weeks every summer.  They take multiple long weekends during the year.

That's just not my life.

Is there forest service or BLM land around you? If so you can disperse camp anywhere for up to 14 days. It can be more enjoyable depending on your tolerance for people and crowds. Personally I like to get away from people while camping and you can't do that in established campgrounds, so I prefer dispersed camping, plus no reservations required.

Assuming you aren't going on a major weekend, I would be shocked that you couldn't find a spot. The last several times I've gone tent camping our group went to a campsite that had spots that were first-come first serve and we never had any issues. Of course we got there before evening. It seems each night there was at least one car driving around in circles at like 11 pm trying to find an empty lot.

paddedhat

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2017, 03:42:11 PM »
My family owns an RV business and a campground and has for 30+ years. Around 85% of the RVs are purchased with a loan. Some people use them all the time others spend $35000+ plus have a seasonal spot that they spend $3000+ on rent a year and they are there a couple weekends a year. I live in northern Minnesota so buying a camper and renting a spot on a lake is still much cheaper than buying a lake home. However, if you don't use it whats the point!

We have been into RVing for almost two decades now. I never borrowed a dime for one and never will. Our latest rig is eleven years old. we bought it at seven, and paid about 30% of the cost of a similar new one. Since then I flipped the interior for about $2K and had the exterior repainted. All in, still a tiny fraction of new, and it's looks and runs new. The most mind blowing part of the whole game are the fools who borrow big bucks for RVs and a take a TWENTY year mortgage on a vehicle that is essentially worthless in twenty years, and end up with a loan that is upside down for a significant portion of the payment cycle. While shopping for a well priced, nice used motorhome, I continually had conversations with owners that went like this. "well, your motorhome is really nice, and just what we want, however, you are about ten grand over book value, so how much are you willing to come down?" The reply was typically, "Well that's what we owe at the moment, so I can't really take less". Now this is mind blowing for many reasons, like they have been paying for the stupid thing for 10-12 years and are STILL ten grand upside down! Next, they are on such shaky financial ground that they can't dig themselves out by filling the gap from savings. Third, they truly believe that a buyer will inexplicably pay 20-30% more than the thing is worth, since that's the loan balance. Many of these are older folks followed the whole mess down the rabbit hole. They couldn't or wouldn't sell for lower that the loan balance. They are paying $5-8K a year in payments, and once a year the "book value " drops by another $4-6K.  At that point it is often a big hulk of money sucking waste, sitting in the yard, until something happens. Maybe a small inheritance arrives, your kids bail you out, you die, who knows? Totally a  bizarre, but common situation. Sadder than this, was the few widows we ran into who had a husband drop dead, and leave them with an upside down motorhome mortgage, a rig that the wife new nothing about, couldn't drive for a block, and still had a $6-800/ month payment. I had a neighbor who suffered this fate, but was smart enough to call the lender and tell then to come pick it up.

I believe that it's pretty easy to destroy your financial future with one loan on a medium to high priced RV, and that there are probably tens of thousands of Americans going down in flames, every year because the stupid RV mortgage finished them off.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 03:51:32 PM by paddedhat »

Cassie

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2017, 03:50:47 PM »
WE bought an old Motorhome with very low miles in great shape 10 years ago because at 53 with back problems we were done with tent camping.  WE store it in our driveway and in the winter when not in use we take the insurance off of it and return the plates. I just found liability only for 9/month so won't have to do that anymore.  You can do it for a reasonable price if you are smart.

russianswinga

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2017, 04:32:48 PM »
My family owns an RV business and a campground and has for 30+ years. Around 85% of the RVs are purchased with a loan. Some people use them all the time others spend $35000+ plus have a seasonal spot that they spend $3000+ on rent a year and they are there a couple weekends a year. I live in northern Minnesota so buying a camper and renting a spot on a lake is still much cheaper than buying a lake home. However, if you don't use it whats the point!

Just spent $3000 on an all-inclusive resort for the family for a week, plus air fare, to Puerto Vallarta for this October. But it could have been any other destination vacation, cruise, Caribbean - or even Europe with new low-cost routes for that money. Why anyone would pay $3K to be on a lake in Minnesota is simply beyond me.
(Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a beautiful lake, I just don't believe that price justifies a couple of weekends of a lakefront camping spot with no amenities / food included)

FINate

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2017, 04:35:51 PM »
My family owns an RV business and a campground and has for 30+ years. Around 85% of the RVs are purchased with a loan. Some people use them all the time others spend $35000+ plus have a seasonal spot that they spend $3000+ on rent a year and they are there a couple weekends a year. I live in northern Minnesota so buying a camper and renting a spot on a lake is still much cheaper than buying a lake home. However, if you don't use it whats the point!

Just spent $3000 on an all-inclusive resort for the family for a week, plus air fare, to Puerto Vallarta for this October. But it could have been any other destination vacation, cruise, Caribbean - or even Europe with new low-cost routes for that money. Why anyone would pay $3K to be on a lake in Minnesota is simply beyond me.
(Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a beautiful lake, I just don't believe that price justifies a couple of weekends of a lakefront camping spot with no amenities / food included)

Depends what you like. All-inclusive resorts? Been there, done that. Absolutely hated it. I'd much rather be camping or, even better, backpacking in the wilderness.

daverobev

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2017, 04:37:16 PM »
Reading this thread makes me want to buy an RV..
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moof

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2017, 04:43:43 PM »
...
Depends what you like. All-inclusive resorts? Been there, done that. Absolutely hated it. I'd much rather be camping or, even better, backpacking in the wilderness.
As my old bumper stciker used to say "My best vacation in your worst nightmare".  Somehow some folks like being on cruise ships and at resorts.  I'd rather they be there than clogging my trails.

FINate

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2017, 04:51:50 PM »
...
Depends what you like. All-inclusive resorts? Been there, done that. Absolutely hated it. I'd much rather be camping or, even better, backpacking in the wilderness.
As my old bumper stciker used to say "My best vacation in your worst nightmare".  Somehow some folks like being on cruise ships and at resorts.  I'd rather they be there than clogging my trails.

Hear! Hear!

zoltani

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2017, 09:39:19 AM »
I've been wanting a camper van for quite some time. I think a pretty nice used one can be had for around $10k. It is hard to justify for just weekend trips, but if I were to travel for an extended time I would go that route. It also might be easier to justify for a family with small kids.

OP is stuck in an Identity Trap, as defined in How I found Freedom in an Unfree World.
“The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life. It’s so easy to make it complex. What’s important is leading an examined life.”

Yvon Chouinard

Cassie

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2017, 02:39:51 PM »
We actually like both cheap camping trips and cruises.  2 entirely different experiences that are fun.  In order to cruise cheap you have to look for the deals. I never understood people paying a fortune for fancy RV, etc that is just going to depreciate like a car.  The nice thing about the RV is that we can bring the doggies with us and they love to go.

mm1970

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2017, 04:04:19 PM »
We got company the other day. They expressed to us they bought a used camper for $23,000. My reaction was "OH WOW! We always camp old school with a tent in the middle of wilderness and when we are done we pack it up throw it in the trunk and drive home. We dont have to clean it out when we get back or pay taxes and insurance on it." I mean I don't know how working people can spend this kind of cash on their toys that they only have time to use them on the weekends. It seems that everyone I know has a boat, camper trailer, side by side or some expensive toy or maybe even one of each that they have to pay taxes and insurance on and have a way to haul it and a place to store it in winter time. For the amount these things cost I would feel like I had to use it all the time to justify buying it. Plus as working person I don't know how they keep up with all their regular things meaning yard work, house work, relationships, and all the other things we have to do in everyday life. I wouldn't want to spend my week working to pay for all these things and then have all of them to clean and maintain on the weekends.
I think it depends.

I like camping.  I like the idea of camping. We've taken the kids tent camping, even with the little one, when we set up the pack and play for him to sleep in.
But man, I'm old.  We've now graduated to cots for the adults.  Our backs cannot take hard ground or even air mattresses.

I would love something like a real bed in a camper or an RV.  I don't have any place to park an RV.  I do not have a car big enough to tow anything.  Should I buy an RV or car + camper?

Well, frankly, I don't have enough vacation time to make it worthwhile.  To camp around here, you need to book in advance, at least 6 months.  What a pain.

So for friends of mine, who have more flexible schedules - it may work.  They book ahead of time.  They go for 3-4 weeks every summer.  They take multiple long weekends during the year.

That's just not my life.

Is there forest service or BLM land around you? If so you can disperse camp anywhere for up to 14 days. It can be more enjoyable depending on your tolerance for people and crowds. Personally I like to get away from people while camping and you can't do that in established campgrounds, so I prefer dispersed camping, plus no reservations required.

Assuming you aren't going on a major weekend, I would be shocked that you couldn't find a spot. The last several times I've gone tent camping our group went to a campsite that had spots that were first-come first serve and we never had any issues. Of course we got there before evening. It seems each night there was at least one car driving around in circles at like 11 pm trying to find an empty lot.
It's hard.  I live in So Cal.  There are *some* dispersed campsites in the Los Padres National Forest.  It can be quite a long drive to get to them.  It's not free to use them either, there is an entry fee into the forest.  And they are pretty busy.  Generally you have to either there early or be willing to "hike in" to find a spot, and I've got 2 children, one of them small.

The paid campgrounds (state parks, etc) are booked solid, and it's rare to just  "drive up" and find a spot.  Which I'm not even going to try to do if I have to pack the car.

In order to find campgrounds that are less "busy", it's a few hours drive from here.  A singular exception being a Lake about an hour's drive, but summers there are effing hot.

Also, I kind of want a bathroom.  So my friends with a campervan, again, have more flexibility.  They have a sink and generator and a porta potty.

JLee

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2017, 04:12:45 PM »
...
Depends what you like. All-inclusive resorts? Been there, done that. Absolutely hated it. I'd much rather be camping or, even better, backpacking in the wilderness.
As my old bumper stciker used to say "My best vacation in your worst nightmare".  Somehow some folks like being on cruise ships and at resorts.  I'd rather they be there than clogging my trails.

Hear! Hear!
Hear! Hear! Hear! Im not a resort/cruise/spa person myself and for what most people spend on a one week resort or cruise vacation will give me 2 months of full time camping road trips in some very cool and interesting places. And no fancy RV needed. Or almost zero $$'s if backpacking or self-contained bike touring. Or I could rent a very nice vacation house for a month, maybe longer, and live the high life.

As for the OP I really have no issue with people buying whatever makes them happy. However if its bought by carrying large debt or are very financially strapped, not saving, trapped by your belongings, etc..then maybe its time to rethink how and why you are buying things.

Right!? I could spend 2-3 months in Baja with that. It would be glorious.

honeybbq

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2017, 11:49:28 AM »
My family owns an RV business and a campground and has for 30+ years. Around 85% of the RVs are purchased with a loan. Some people use them all the time others spend $35000+ plus have a seasonal spot that they spend $3000+ on rent a year and they are there a couple weekends a year. I live in northern Minnesota so buying a camper and renting a spot on a lake is still much cheaper than buying a lake home. However, if you don't use it whats the point!

Just spent $3000 on an all-inclusive resort for the family for a week, plus air fare, to Puerto Vallarta for this October. But it could have been any other destination vacation, cruise, Caribbean - or even Europe with new low-cost routes for that money. Why anyone would pay $3K to be on a lake in Minnesota is simply beyond me.
(Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a beautiful lake, I just don't believe that price justifies a couple of weekends of a lakefront camping spot with no amenities / food included)

Depends what you like. All-inclusive resorts? Been there, done that. Absolutely hated it. I'd much rather be camping or, even better, backpacking in the wilderness.
Ditto.

gardeningandgreen

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2017, 11:56:43 AM »
My family owns an RV business and a campground and has for 30+ years. Around 85% of the RVs are purchased with a loan. Some people use them all the time others spend $35000+ plus have a seasonal spot that they spend $3000+ on rent a year and they are there a couple weekends a year. I live in northern Minnesota so buying a camper and renting a spot on a lake is still much cheaper than buying a lake home. However, if you don't use it whats the point!

Just spent $3000 on an all-inclusive resort for the family for a week, plus air fare, to Puerto Vallarta for this October. But it could have been any other destination vacation, cruise, Caribbean - or even Europe with new low-cost routes for that money. Why anyone would pay $3K to be on a lake in Minnesota is simply beyond me.
(Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a beautiful lake, I just don't believe that price justifies a couple of weekends of a lakefront camping spot with no amenities / food included)

Depends what you like. All-inclusive resorts? Been there, done that. Absolutely hated it. I'd much rather be camping or, even better, backpacking in the wilderness.
Ditto.

I honestly love my families campground. All of my childhood was spent there(we lived in our camper for 3 months out of the year), I got married there and all my favorite people are there in the summer. But it is expensive. My family still thinks I'm crazy because I love sleeping in our tent and we haven't bought a camper. We might one day when we have kids but I will get a great deal with not paying for a spot to park it and paying cost for the actual camper. Oh also paying cash for it!

boarder42

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2017, 01:24:03 PM »
My family owns an RV business and a campground and has for 30+ years. Around 85% of the RVs are purchased with a loan. Some people use them all the time others spend $35000+ plus have a seasonal spot that they spend $3000+ on rent a year and they are there a couple weekends a year. I live in northern Minnesota so buying a camper and renting a spot on a lake is still much cheaper than buying a lake home. However, if you don't use it whats the point!

Just spent $3000 on an all-inclusive resort for the family for a week, plus air fare, to Puerto Vallarta for this October. But it could have been any other destination vacation, cruise, Caribbean - or even Europe with new low-cost routes for that money. Why anyone would pay $3K to be on a lake in Minnesota is simply beyond me.
(Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's a beautiful lake, I just don't believe that price justifies a couple of weekends of a lakefront camping spot with no amenities / food included)

Depends what you like. All-inclusive resorts? Been there, done that. Absolutely hated it. I'd much rather be camping or, even better, backpacking in the wilderness.
Ditto.

why are you spending 3k you should be travel hacking for that trip. 

Camping is one of the hardest things to travel hack.... but AI in Mexico... travel hack that in your sleep.

on the OP i own a boat its almost 20 years old and i use it 2-3 times a week at the lake i live on full time.  taxes on it are actually higher than our cars b/c its an inboard tow boat and holds value insanely well. my 99 boat is still worth 6-8k more than the 14k i paid for it.  so there are affordable ways to do any hobby you enjoy.  now power boating can't really ever be mustachian i dont think do to missing the envrionmental impact side of the equation.  but it can be done cost effectively.
PM me about how to save 6% on your annual grocery Bill!

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wauske

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2017, 02:10:34 PM »
Reading this thread makes me want to buy an RV..
Same here, but to see if its anything we'd like we'll rent one first. Mainly because of the cost of buying (even second hand) and also because one of our kids is likely to balk at some point. Renting is actually cheaper when we only go for a few weeks but the goal is naturally to go out with the RV at every opportunity, which is often since I only work monday-thursday.

But, until that time, I've got plans to go out with my oldest on our boat and camp out in the wildreness (if you can call it that). Our boat's an 11ft inflatable with an electric motor though, easy to store and use when the weather permits - takes a while to inflate though with a manual pump :D
Everything I say is my personal opinion which is based on my subjective experience.

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2017, 03:32:40 PM »
Here in Alaska it's not uncommon to see a 65k$ diesel truck hauling a $5k 2 axle trailer loaded with side by sides and ATVs (side by sides are 20k$ each). Wintertime, these guys have their very expensive snow machines loaded up. Seriously, I don't know how they afford that.

Me, I would like to save up for a good used ATV for fishing and hunting.

You need all that gear to fill your subsistence moose/caribou tags and subsistence dip-netted salmon, or so I've been told by several people.

Melody

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2017, 06:33:24 AM »
I always wanted to like camping but never could... i always slept terribly in tents  ... cold at night, hot and bright in the morning. I ended up (on a friends suggestion) buying a canvas swag with a foam mattress inside. I sleep almost as good inside that as in my bed at home. It cost $180 used (about $450 new). Not for everyone... but a good choice for me (i was considering a mitsubishi delica campervan for offroad travel and camping.) I have camped the last 3 weekends and would still struggle to justify the cost of a delica (they are pretty inexpensive to buy, but heavy on fuel and expensive on parts).

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human

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2017, 07:16:47 AM »
I call shenanigans on the op. I like to get on the trail fast and hike 15-20 miles a day so sometimes the tent gets packed up wet.
With no ground cloth I can get a big mess on the last day if it's raining so I have to hang it up in the shower at home. Still much lower maintenance than rv though. I still haven't had to patch anything yet.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 06:08:03 PM by human »

TartanTallulah

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2017, 11:37:57 AM »
Someone I know bought a new motorhome recently. I looked it up online cos I'm nosy like that. Even if there was a 10% discount on the list price, it must have cost them the equivalent of more than a year's take-home pay, from a job they'd like to be able to retire from. And then there are the adaptations to the yard to make room to park it at home, and the running costs.

They're loving it, and I love that they're loving it. And maybe OMY (or more) at the coal face is, for them, a worthwhile sacrifice for being able to get into the van and go road tripping on weekends and vacations. We all make those trade-offs, don't we? I'm doing it myself, for I could call myself FI now if it wasn't for a couple of spendy hobbies that I'm not prepared to give up.

I can totally see the appeal of owning a motorhome, but DH and I did the math and worked out that we could have B&B or motel accommodation for as many trips within driving distance as home as we're likely to take in our lifetimes for less than the cost of a new motorhome, and if we're going off the beaten track we don't mind hauling and sleeping in a tiny tent. The only way we're ever likely to own a van is if we take the plunge, sell the house, and live in one full time.



JLee

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2017, 01:07:27 PM »
Someone I know bought a new motorhome recently. I looked it up online cos I'm nosy like that. Even if there was a 10% discount on the list price, it must have cost them the equivalent of more than a year's take-home pay, from a job they'd like to be able to retire from. And then there are the adaptations to the yard to make room to park it at home, and the running costs.

They're loving it, and I love that they're loving it. And maybe OMY (or more) at the coal face is, for them, a worthwhile sacrifice for being able to get into the van and go road tripping on weekends and vacations. We all make those trade-offs, don't we? I'm doing it myself, for I could call myself FI now if it wasn't for a couple of spendy hobbies that I'm not prepared to give up.

I can totally see the appeal of owning a motorhome, but DH and I did the math and worked out that we could have B&B or motel accommodation for as many trips within driving distance as home as we're likely to take in our lifetimes for less than the cost of a new motorhome, and if we're going off the beaten track we don't mind hauling and sleeping in a tiny tent. The only way we're ever likely to own a van is if we take the plunge, sell the house, and live in one full time.

They're SO MUCH CHEAPER used vs new -- depreciation hits motor homes ridiculously hard.  I am not sure why people buy new ones.

Cassie

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2017, 02:02:07 PM »
Last time we camped we were parked next to a couple that had spent 200k on a motorhome. We were in our 24 yo motorhome. Then they started to tell us that they sold the old one because they were sick of having issues but were still having issues with the new one and getting the dealer to make it right. I could never imagine spending that kind of $ on something that loses $ quick. Ugh!

paddedhat

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2017, 02:13:18 PM »
Someone I know bought a new motorhome recently. I looked it up online cos I'm nosy like that. Even if there was a 10% discount on the list price, it must have cost them the equivalent of more than a year's take-home pay, from a job they'd like to be able to retire from. And then there are the adaptations to the yard to make room to park it at home, and the running costs.

Typically the new stuff can be had for 25-30% off list. But, they are still an extremely stupid way to waste money, or get saddled with an actual mortgage for 15-20 years.  They also depreciate at a sickening rate, especially when new.  About five years ago my buddy bought a new one. MSRP was in the mid-$140K range, he paid $106K. He kept the thing in showroom condition, and put maybe 15-20k miles on, in three years. He tries to trade in for another one, and several dealers offer him right around $60K , which is  $15,000 per YEAR in depreciation. He gets pissed at the dealer who sold it to him, and accused the salesman of low balling the trade in. They sit down with the dealers buyer, who shows him that  similar units are bringing a bit less at the auctions, but they can pay a bit more since they don't have to arrange for transportation, and it wouldn't need any reconditioning. My buddy can't do the deal, since not only did he lose $45K in depreciation, his loan balance is higher than that, and he put $18,000 down.

I wasn't kidding when I said that these things can wipe out somebody's finances. IMHO, there is absolutely no acceptable reason for borrowing money to buy one, and as  another poster pointed out, most of them are sold with a loan.  Counting the down payment, depreciation, insurance, licensing, repairs, maintenance, etc.... If my buddy had to sell, three years in, his cost per month, over his ownership tenure would of been roughly two grand a month. More actually, since he would of had to add another $6K to bridge the gap on his loan payoff figure. That's insane, but oddly normal in the world of RV finance.

MgoSam

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2017, 03:31:53 PM »
How much of the 'depreciation,' comes from the fact that most motorhomes are sold on a loan and so a lot of people realize how expensive they are after a few years and realize that they barely use it and so sell it thus lowering costs?

paddedhat

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2017, 04:43:50 AM »
Depreciation tends to be severe enough that, absent a significant down payment, many (most?) of these loans are upside down for a significant time, so selling after a few years is not an option for many. I mentioned it in an earlier post, that while shopping for severely depreciated used rigs, I found it common to find FSBO units, anywhere from 8-12 years old, that were still considerably underwater, and owner's hoping that some magic fairy was going to seriously overpay for the motorhome, and magically get them out of the mess they are in.

There seems to be a bit of a demographic split between trailer and motorhome owners. I have seen many trailer owners who only use them three or four times a year.  Used motorhomes rarely show less that 3-4K miles per year on the odometer, so most are getting somewhat regular use, even if it's only a round trip to a snowbird resort in Fl or TX. every year.

Stachetastic

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2017, 05:10:52 AM »
We bought a used pop up camper a few years back for the princely sum of $900. I can't even remember the year it was made--in the 90's sometime. It's old enough to drink by now. We wanted to test the waters fairly inexpensively in case we didn't use it much. We had a toddler at the time, so we wanted to be conservative with our estimated usage. We were right, we really don't use it much, but have no regrets. We are hoping to use it more now that the kids are a bit older. In fact, we're taking it out this weekend. We tent camped for a few years, but sleeping on the ground got old for me. We felt $900 was a decent investment in getting us up off the ground. Also, my 6'4" husband appreciates something he can stand upright in. Our intent was to wade into trailer camping cheaply and then upgrade if we felt our usage was adequate. We're sticking with our vintage pop up for now.

paddedhat

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2017, 07:53:21 AM »
We bought a used pop up camper a few years back for the princely sum of $900. I can't even remember the year it was made--in the 90's sometime. .

Wow, that brings memories back. My dad did the same thing. He found an old, but solid,  true "tent camper," the predecessor of the crank up style "pop-up". It was from the late fifties, early sixties. The top opened like a pair of french doors. As you flipped them backwards, they would become the "wing" beds, and a limp canvas army looking tent would be waiting for the kids to climb in, and push the poles up under. The family used it for a good ten years of vacations. He sold it to a buddy for $200 less than he paid. While our own kids were still in elementary school, we did the same thing with a ten year old Starcraft pop-up. A few years later,, I found another Starcraft. The first one sold for $400 less than I paid, the second was a bit of a rehab project, with a slightly rotten corner. A bit of carpentry work, with little in actual cost, and that one brought exactly what I originally spent. Lots of great trips, and years of use, for very little money.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 08:07:32 AM by paddedhat »

MoMan

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2017, 01:36:32 PM »
Owning a boat helped me avoid a much larger mistake.

Truth be told, until this spring, I owned 4 boats, but please hold the face punches for a moment. I bought my first boat, a 15 foot day sailor from my father. I still own it but plan to sell it. My second boat was a 18’ "bow rider" for water-skiing/ wake-boarding.

The wife and I bought it together to use at the lake house we rent a couple of times a year. At the time (early fall, 2007) we were planning on eventually buying a lakefront vacation house and reasoned that getting a boat before the house would let us partake in those on water activities without waiting. We paid $5,300 (negotiated down from $6k) for a 1994 fiberglass ski boat. The first few outings we discovered a few mechanical problems which were easily fixed (starter rebuilt, new impeller, etc.). We used it quite often (a couple times a month) the first couple of summers, making the 90 mile trek each way to the lake where we kept it in a self-storage unit for $100/ month (My HOA does not allow boats/RVs to be visible in your yard or driveway). And of course we always had it out for the rented house weekends.

We all learned to wake board (nieces, nephews, siblings and friends) and had a good time. As we got more skilled, we preferred the best conditions: glass smooth water. But glass conditions are hit or miss, so when conditions got choppy, it was no longer much fun bouncing around on the waves. Plus, I was usually the default driver which meant no drinking when I would prefer to be bobbing in the water with a cold beer. In addition, life has a way of offering up other activities each weekend that are more appealing than a 3 hour round trip drive to the lake to spend 2 hours on the water. So we used it less and less.

But it still needed annual maintenance, which all fell to me: drive up, change oil, filters, belts, spark plugs, take out of storage and drive 5 more miles to lake to start engine so you can “fog” the cylinders to store it for winter, drive back to storage, then drive 90 miles home. Ugh.

Plus, we were still paying $100/month for storage. By 2015, we were using it once or twice a year. By this time we had paid more in storage fees than the original boat. I wanted to sell. That was also the year I discovered MMM. After a few days of teary discussions, the wife came around and agreed that we weren’t using it and that it wasn’t worth owning.

I spoke w/ a dealer who politely avoided laughing in my face when I asked about consignment. He showed me the “blue book” of boats quote and suggested I list it on Craigslist, which I did. I gratefully sold it about 2 months ago for $1,000. Good riddance and I am pleased it went to someone who is planning to use it.

This whole experience made me realize how much I do NOT want to own lakefront (or any other) vacation property. I now know myself and would end up resenting all the required maintenance on property that is an hour and a half drive away. And we simply wouldn’t end up using it like we fantasize; at least not after the initial novelty has worn off. I could still see us relocating to some lake property as our permanent residence after we both retire.

So what about the other remaining boats? One is a cedar strip canoe that I built over the course of 14 months. It hangs inexpensively from the rafters in the garage and mostly collects dust but is super pretty. The other is a 17 foot wooden sailboat that I built over the course of 2.5 years. It resides in the back yard, hidden from the HOA’s offended eyes. It’s also super pretty. It’s also much roomier and more stable than the little racing boat I bought from my dad, which is why I will soon sell that. But none of them are costing me storage fees, so no real rush.
"He is richest who is contented, for content is the wealth of nature."

FINate

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2017, 02:29:25 PM »
We also almost made the mistake of buying a vacation property. During the depths of the financial crisis we were actively looking at properties in a mountain resort area. At the time there were some very good deals on distressed properties and we had the funds to buy. Almost pulled the trigger multiple times, but never did because we were worried about the issues MoMan outlined.

In our case it would have been a 4-5 hour trip each way, which makes weekend trips kinda pointless. We realized that we would only be using it a handful of times a year, while still having to do all the maintenance and pay insurance and taxes. Renting it out would have covered some of the costs, but of course this means we have to plan around this and have strangers staying in the place. Cheaper, easier, and more flexible to just rent a VRBO when we want to go.

Prices in that area have since increased so we wouldn't have lost much (if anything) in the deal. Still glad we didn't buy, would not have liked feeling the need to use the vacation home to get our money's worth instead of going to different places.

thesvenster

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2017, 03:31:39 PM »
Here in Alaska it's not uncommon to see a 65k$ diesel truck hauling a $5k 2 axle trailer loaded with side by sides and ATVs (side by sides are 20k$ each). Wintertime, these guys have their very expensive snow machines loaded up. Seriously, I don't know how they afford that.

Me, I would like to save up for a good used ATV for fishing and hunting.

You need all that gear to fill your subsistence moose/caribou tags and subsistence dip-netted salmon, or so I've been told by several people.

Oh yes. It's hilarious to see people subsistence dipnetting in $50k boats. I've somehow managed to catch plenty of fish and fill moose tags without anything more than my feet.

paddedhat

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2017, 05:39:01 PM »
Here in Alaska it's not uncommon to see a 65k$ diesel truck hauling a $5k 2 axle trailer loaded with side by sides and ATVs (side by sides are 20k$ each). Wintertime, these guys have their very expensive snow machines loaded up. Seriously, I don't know how they afford that.

Me, I would like to save up for a good used ATV for fishing and hunting.

You need all that gear to fill your subsistence moose/caribou tags and subsistence dip-netted salmon, or so I've been told by several people.

Oh yes. It's hilarious to see people subsistence dipnetting in $50k boats. I've somehow managed to catch plenty of fish and fill moose tags without anything more than my feet.

So you're saying, pretty much "Same as it always was" for the last ten thousand years, or so, in your neighborhood?

Blindsquirrel

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2017, 06:46:50 PM »
    If you have the means and will use it, buy a boat or RV or whatever. I have two boats, a 17 foot tiller bass boat and a 21 foot center console for the Great Lakes. I really enjoy pestering fish and pester them a bunch. Life is short. 
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Capt j-rod

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2017, 07:27:03 PM »
I use a very different angle for my toys. I true mustache form, I fix anything that moves. I am on my 8th boat. Buy, fix, clean, detail use and sell... Repeat. I have flipped boat after boat. My current boat is amazing and would have cost $60k new. I am into it for basically $5k and a ton of work over the years on other boats to get here. If I sold it I would get a nice check for $25k. My camper? Bought it with a leak in the roof. Completely rebuilt it with about $1000 in materials. Total investment? $3k and more work. If I sold it I could easily get $5k. The magic of these super fast depreciating items is when they break, the people are so broke they can't fix them.

thesvenster

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2017, 03:15:07 PM »
I use a very different angle for my toys. I true mustache form, I fix anything that moves. I am on my 8th boat. Buy, fix, clean, detail use and sell... Repeat. I have flipped boat after boat. My current boat is amazing and would have cost $60k new. I am into it for basically $5k and a ton of work over the years on other boats to get here. If I sold it I would get a nice check for $25k. My camper? Bought it with a leak in the roof. Completely rebuilt it with about $1000 in materials. Total investment? $3k and more work. If I sold it I could easily get $5k. The magic of these super fast depreciating items is when they break, the people are so broke they can't fix them.

Hey well that's what Mustachianism is all about right? Living a better lifestyle for less money. If you can make that work, that's awesome.

boarder42

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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2017, 03:53:38 AM »
I use a very different angle for my toys. I true mustache form, I fix anything that moves. I am on my 8th boat. Buy, fix, clean, detail use and sell... Repeat. I have flipped boat after boat. My current boat is amazing and would have cost $60k new. I am into it for basically $5k and a ton of work over the years on other boats to get here. If I sold it I would get a nice check for $25k. My camper? Bought it with a leak in the roof. Completely rebuilt it with about $1000 in materials. Total investment? $3k and more work. If I sold it I could easily get $5k. The magic of these super fast depreciating items is when they break, the people are so broke they can't fix them.

Hey well that's what Mustachianism is all about right? Living a better lifestyle for less money. If you can make that work, that's awesome.

That's what being frugal and opportunistic is all about. Mustachians has an environmental component as I mentioned above that would make boating on anything other than sail boat un mustachian.
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Re: Camper trailors, boats, side by sides, and other expensive toys
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2017, 07:53:31 AM »
I use a very different angle for my toys. I true mustache form, I fix anything that moves. I am on my 8th boat. Buy, fix, clean, detail use and sell... Repeat. I have flipped boat after boat. My current boat is amazing and would have cost $60k new. I am into it for basically $5k and a ton of work over the years on other boats to get here. If I sold it I would get a nice check for $25k. My camper? Bought it with a leak in the roof. Completely rebuilt it with about $1000 in materials. Total investment? $3k and more work. If I sold it I could easily get $5k. The magic of these super fast depreciating items is when they break, the people are so broke they can't fix them.

Hey well that's what Mustachianism is all about right? Living a better lifestyle for less money. If you can make that work, that's awesome.

That's what being frugal and opportunistic is all about. Mustachians has an environmental component as I mentioned above that would make boating on anything other than sail boat un mustachian.

But oh, that sailboat! We have used about 20 gallons of diesel in three years. Our billing fees are usually more than the consumption on our electric bill. We don't have any place to put frivolous stuff (also a good excuse at Christmas).

Plus, thanks to our DIY skills, we often end up with extra cash from helping out other boaters. Yesterday, I would have been happy to have someone pay for materials and just keep the leftovers, but they pressed extra cash on DH. They still paid less than half what a handy man would have charged them and we got free materials plus band tip money next time we go out dancing. Tomorrow I am going to see what another boater wants. He has already paid for half of my sewing machine, although making my own cushions more than paid for it, as well. It is our half arsed side hustle; we usually have plenty of work on our own boat.