Brutal article on truck culture - it's like dressing in drag

[GuitarStv]

So easy rule of thumb: if the truck isn't white, it's not really a truck, it's truck cosplay.

-W

White vans too.  I've found it is easier to park illegally/in unauthorized locations if you have a white truck or van.   People think you are there doing a job.   

Also great for indicating your altruistic desire to distribute candy . . .

[ChpBstrd]

Still, with all the things to worry about or strive for in life, I cannot imagine "the ability to haul shit around at a moment's notice" being important enough to sacrifice so much of one's financial well being on a mobile money incinerator.

What big truck owner with a massive loan payment, thousands in annual insurance costs, thousands in annual fuel costs, minimal retirement prospects, and needing to spend $2500 this year on tires is actually more resilient to chaos than me with my old econobox hitched to a 4x8 trailer and five figures per year in dividend and interest income? Seems like the prioritization of "haul shit at a moment's notice" involves an incredible amount of focus on a very specific scenario, which doesn't even happen all that often for most people.

Why aren't they more worried about financial resilience instead of how to transport the couch they'll buy 3 years from now? IDK, but I do know the US lets people die if they can't afford housing or six-figure medical treatments, and there are lots of ways to get bulky objects moved around. DW and I just bought a queen sized mattress from Dillard's and delivery was free. If it wasn't free, I had my trailer, the truck rental option from at least 5-6 different local places, and as a last resort the friends who spend $125 per fill-up so they can be ready for me to call them with a favor, lol! I never had a bit of anxiety about how we'd get the thing home, so I have plenty of headroom despite not owning a truck.

You probably don't have to move multiple times per year.

This financial stability you're talking about isn't something they have ever experienced. I'd venture to say that a truck (and usually they do choose the cheaper ones) with a payment and insurance is probably something that creates chaos and contributes to financial instability, however when you're treading water in the ocean one more bucket of water doesn't really make a difference. Plus, if there's a bed cover, you can live in the truck more comfortably than in a car, should your housing situation go bad suddenly.

The "favors" you ask of your friends: I hope you provide similar on-demand value to them. Some people do, and some don't.

Correct. I don't move often, but when we bought our current house I moved all our family's possessions with compact cars and the 4x8 trailer I originally bought for $400. Didn't even splurge on a moving truck. I hauled home a washer and dryer shortly thereafter.

Interesting point about how people might instigate one form of instability/chaos (the financial type) by buying their way out of another type of instability (having one's belongings tossed on the curb during eviction, with no way to immediately relocate them). By solving the stuff relocation problem with an expensive vehicle, they would be putting themselves in a position to suffer the stuff relocation problem more frequently.

As a more financially minded person, I cannot imagine buying a large SUV or truck with camper on the rationale that I could sleep in it if I became homeless. The difference of two fill-ups would pay for a cheap hotel room. More importantly, saving a few thousand per year would all but foreclose on the possibility of ever being evicted in my LCOL town.

I get the point about treading water, and I understand the challenge of financial illiteracy, but have a hard time comprehending how treading water and living in chaos is something one thinks they can adapt to by buying a truck? It's like expecting to use a brick as a paddle to help you swim. Just get in the boat of financial strength instead!

[sonofsven]

My brother is a GC and his rule of thumb is that the only trucks that are ever getting used for truck stuff are the white ones. If you're a contractor, gov't agency, municipal employee, you probably drive a white truck full of tools around. And if you're just a rando civilian who wants to haul shit around, you buy a used one of those white trucks (they get maintained on a schedule!)

So easy rule of thumb: if the truck isn't white, it's not really a truck, it's truck cosplay.

-W

Why white?  Just curious  White shows dirt like crazy.

White actually looks presentable while dirty better than colors, especially black. Sometimes I'm amazed how filthy my truck really is. I think  that the paint lasts longer, too. I know on houses dark colors, especially on the south side, sustain more damage over time
Yes, I only drive white trucks or vans filled with tools, lol.

[Laura33]

I get the point about treading water, and I understand the challenge of financial illiteracy, but have a hard time comprehending how treading water and living in chaos is something one thinks they can adapt to by buying a truck? It's like expecting to use a brick as a paddle to help you swim. Just get in the boat of financial strength instead!

It is poverty mentality.  Say you're in the ocean, treading water.  You spend all your energy keeping your head above water, waiting for a rescue ship to come by.  You might be better off if you took off swimming in the direction of the closest island you remember passing.  But you don't have any more energy to spare.  If you try to make the swim, you fear you'll drown before you get anywhere, so the safest choice seems to just tread water for as long as you can and hope someone comes by.

The thing to realize about the poverty mindset is that the idea of ever achieving financial security is literally inconceivable.  You try to save money, the bank takes half of it with fees.  You stick money under your mattress, you get robbed, or you get hit with a medical bill that sucks it all away anyway.  You get a full-time job, but it involves working split shifts across town, and the bus isn't particularly reliable -- and then they cut your hours.  And there is no one in your whole acquaintance who has ever managed to work and save and escape to actual security (well, except the dealers, but they get shot and/or go to jail).  And even when good things happen, your confirmation bias keeps you from seeing them for what they are; the guy down the block who worked his way through college and now lives in the suburbs was "lucky," and nothing like that would ever happen to you.  Life is something that happens to you; the deck is stacked against you, and the best you can hope for is to tread water as long as you can.  [Meanwhile, the constant treading water means you're in constant fight-or-flight mode, which turns off the logical part of the brain, and makes good decisions even harder to make]

If you want to understand how poor people think, the first thing you have to do is take the idea of long-term financial security off the table.  When you start from that assumption, the logical response is to spend whatever money you make on things that improve your life now.  No, that guy can't afford a big fancy shiny new truck with a giant payment.  But he can afford a used one, which means he can help his sister when she gets evicted, help his buddy carry around junk he found to resell at a flea market, tote some bags of cement to help his mom fix the dangerous porch steps that the landlord has ignored, and generally help take care of the people he cares about and build his social capital.  And in return, his buddy will help him fix the truck when it breaks, or hook him up with a guy who sells cheap tires; his mom will feed him when he comes by; he can crash on his sister's couch when he loses his own apartment; and generally, everybody manages to get by somehow.

[Dicey]

My brother is a GC and his rule of thumb is that the only trucks that are ever getting used for truck stuff are the white ones. If you're a contractor, gov't agency, municipal employee, you probably drive a white truck full of tools around. And if you're just a rando civilian who wants to haul shit around, you buy a used one of those white trucks (they get maintained on a schedule!)

So easy rule of thumb: if the truck isn't white, it's not really a truck, it's truck cosplay.

-W

It actually isn't all that bad. DH was a painting contractor.  Most of them drive white trucks. It always cracks me up when I go to pick up building materials in his truck. It's like I have instant cred because I'm in a white truck.

Why white?  Just curious  White shows dirt like crazy.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

As a more financially minded person, I cannot imagine buying a large SUV or truck with camper on the rationale that I could sleep in it if I became homeless. The difference of two fill-ups would pay for a cheap hotel room. More importantly, saving a few thousand per year would all but foreclose on the possibility of ever being evicted in my LCOL town.

I get the point about treading water, and I understand the challenge of financial illiteracy, but have a hard time comprehending how treading water and living in chaos is something one thinks they can adapt to by buying a truck? It's like expecting to use a brick as a paddle to help you swim. Just get in the boat of financial strength instead!

Whether or not you become homeless is something that is, and has generally always been, mostly within your control. In many families, it's not.

The guy I was talking to had what can only be described as a very chaotic family: the sort where someone's always dying unexpectedly, having an overdose, getting pregnant and unilaterally deciding to not only carry the baby to term but raise it, dropping out of school, having a major disability or special need, or going to prison. At the time we spoke, his marriage had just broken up and he'd moved out, but he also had a heavy dose of what my family and I call OPD (Other People's Drama). So when he talked about the option of sleeping in his truck, I don't think it was just theory. I think it was something he'd actually done, and recently.

It got me to thinking about whether, if someone took a giant eraser and got rid of his truck and all the associated expenses, and replaced it with a more practical mode of transportation, (former) Truck Guy would enjoy financial stability. I eventually concluded that, in his particular case, his OPD was too high. Too many people around him, whom he loved, had problems big enough to suck down all available resources even if he landed an extremely secure, high-paying job and was the next incarnation of Benjamin Graham.

[Samuel]

So easy rule of thumb: if the truck isn't white, it's not really a truck, it's truck cosplay.

-W

White vans too.  I've found it is easier to park illegally/in unauthorized locations if you have a white truck or van.   People think you are there doing a job.

And throw a boxy metal clipboard and a hi-viz yellow vest on the dashboard for extra effect. A friend of mine carries both in his nondescript white van (that is actually a stealthy camper van).

[Morning Glory]

As a more financially minded person, I cannot imagine buying a large SUV or truck with camper on the rationale that I could sleep in it if I became homeless. The difference of two fill-ups would pay for a cheap hotel room. More importantly, saving a few thousand per year would all but foreclose on the possibility of ever being evicted in my LCOL town.

I get the point about treading water, and I understand the challenge of financial illiteracy, but have a hard time comprehending how treading water and living in chaos is something one thinks they can adapt to by buying a truck? It's like expecting to use a brick as a paddle to help you swim. Just get in the boat of financial strength instead!

Whether or not you become homeless is something that is, and has generally always been, mostly within your control. In many families, it's not.

The guy I was talking to had what can only be described as a very chaotic family: the sort where someone's always dying unexpectedly, having an overdose, getting pregnant and unilaterally deciding to not only carry the baby to term but raise it, dropping out of school, having a major disability or special need, or going to prison. At the time we spoke, his marriage had just broken up and he'd moved out, but he also had a heavy dose of what my family and I call OPD (Other People's Drama). So when he talked about the option of sleeping in his truck, I don't think it was just theory. I think it was something he'd actually done, and recently.

It got me to thinking about whether, if someone took a giant eraser and got rid of his truck and all the associated expenses, and replaced it with a more practical mode of transportation, (former) Truck Guy would enjoy financial stability. I eventually concluded that, in his particular case, his OPD was too high. Too many people around him, whom he loved, had problems big enough to suck down all available resources even if he landed an extremely secure, high-paying job and was the next incarnation of Benjamin Graham.

I get that it's also difficult to rent a vehicle without access to credit. 
Wouldn't a mini van or station wagon be just as good for all of this though? The comforts described up thread could also be satisfied with a minivan for that matter, plus it's a lot easier to pick grandma up from the hospital (and load just about anything)in a shorter vehicle.

[ChpBstrd]

As a more financially minded person, I cannot imagine buying a large SUV or truck with camper on the rationale that I could sleep in it if I became homeless. The difference of two fill-ups would pay for a cheap hotel room. More importantly, saving a few thousand per year would all but foreclose on the possibility of ever being evicted in my LCOL town.

I get the point about treading water, and I understand the challenge of financial illiteracy, but have a hard time comprehending how treading water and living in chaos is something one thinks they can adapt to by buying a truck? It's like expecting to use a brick as a paddle to help you swim. Just get in the boat of financial strength instead!

Whether or not you become homeless is something that is, and has generally always been, mostly within your control. In many families, it's not.

The guy I was talking to had what can only be described as a very chaotic family: the sort where someone's always dying unexpectedly, having an overdose, getting pregnant and unilaterally deciding to not only carry the baby to term but raise it, dropping out of school, having a major disability or special need, or going to prison. At the time we spoke, his marriage had just broken up and he'd moved out, but he also had a heavy dose of what my family and I call OPD (Other People's Drama). So when he talked about the option of sleeping in his truck, I don't think it was just theory. I think it was something he'd actually done, and recently.

It got me to thinking about whether, if someone took a giant eraser and got rid of his truck and all the associated expenses, and replaced it with a more practical mode of transportation, (former) Truck Guy would enjoy financial stability. I eventually concluded that, in his particular case, his OPD was too high. Too many people around him, whom he loved, had problems big enough to suck down all available resources even if he landed an extremely secure, high-paying job and was the next incarnation of Benjamin Graham.

I get that it's also difficult to rent a vehicle without access to credit. 
Wouldn't a mini van or station wagon be just as good for all of this though? The comforts described up thread could also be satisfied with a minivan for that matter, plus it's a lot easier to pick grandma up from the hospital (and load just about anything)in a shorter vehicle.

Both form factors are only sold as essentially luxury vehicles in the US, for about the same price as a base model truck.

[RetiredAt63]

Thanks everyone for explaining the generic white truck/van.  I've never owned either (closest I came was a mini-van) but the reasons all make lots of sense.

If I ever buy one it will be white.    ;-)

Back to the discussion - a small van (not mini-van) seems more sensible than a truck.  It can carry a lot, it can be rigged out for all sorts of uses (the builders here have a van outfitted to be a complete workshop, and yes it is white), and you don't have to buy a cover to protect stuff.  The only thing it doesn't have is high clearance.

For clearance - I used to go to dog shows/agility trials and my Subaru (not a Forester) had high enough clearance that it could manage any rough fields that the shows were being held in.  It easily held me and another person, the dog, her crate, my chair and cooler, and miscellaneous implement.  I like my Mazda but I miss my Subaru.

[blue_green_sparks]

We share a 2010 Honda Ridgeway. A car-type unibody with a shorter bed.....but it can do most truck things that we need in maintaining our 3 acres and gardens. It's white, LOL.

[spartana]

As a more financially minded person, I cannot imagine buying a large SUV or truck with camper on the rationale that I could sleep in it if I became homeless. The difference of two fill-ups would pay for a cheap hotel room. More importantly, saving a few thousand per year would all but foreclose on the possibility of ever being evicted in my LCOL town.

I get the point about treading water, and I understand the challenge of financial illiteracy, but have a hard time comprehending how treading water and living in chaos is something one thinks they can adapt to by buying a truck? It's like expecting to use a brick as a paddle to help you swim. Just get in the boat of financial strength instead!

Whether or not you become homeless is something that is, and has generally always been, mostly within your control. In many families, it's not.

The guy I was talking to had what can only be described as a very chaotic family: the sort where someone's always dying unexpectedly, having an overdose, getting pregnant and unilaterally deciding to not only carry the baby to term but raise it, dropping out of school, having a major disability or special need, or going to prison. At the time we spoke, his marriage had just broken up and he'd moved out, but he also had a heavy dose of what my family and I call OPD (Other People's Drama). So when he talked about the option of sleeping in his truck, I don't think it was just theory. I think it was something he'd actually done, and recently.

It got me to thinking about whether, if someone took a giant eraser and got rid of his truck and all the associated expenses, and replaced it with a more practical mode of transportation, (former) Truck Guy would enjoy financial stability. I eventually concluded that, in his particular case, his OPD was too high. Too many people around him, whom he loved, had problems big enough to suck down all available resources even if he landed an extremely secure, high-paying job and was the next incarnation of Benjamin Graham.

I get that it's also difficult to rent a vehicle without access to credit. 
Wouldn't a mini van or station wagon be just as good for all of this though? The comforts described up thread could also be satisfied with a minivan for that matter, plus it's a lot easier to pick grandma up from the hospital (and load just about anything)in a shorter vehicle.

Both form factors are only sold as essentially luxury vehicles in the US, for about the same price as a base model truck.

Actually new and used mini vans are more expensive then most "normal" new and used trucks. I've been looking at both - and especially at small cargo vans which are outrageously expensive - for a long time now. This new Colorado has both a smaller engine (2.5L 4 cylinder) and it about $10k less than a new mini van - which come with larger V-6 engines and poor fuel economy.  https://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/colorado/2024/vin/1GCGSBEC6R1216322/?radius=10

Plus, unless you are Driving around a bunch of people or using it to haul clean cargo or sleep in, a mid sized truck might be a better option for hauling your things. In my case, I'm sure not putting mud encrusted bikes,  wet sandy dive gear and surfboards and kayaks and bags of horse manure in the rear of my $40k mini van!

ETA: I had a govt job and had a white truck. Big 4×4 because I had to go off road a lot. As well as drive on sandy beaches for miles. I think it had a V6 but was pretty big. Lots of former fleet trucks go to public action and you can bid of them fairly cheaply. The problem is that even if fairly low mikes and maintained well, they are often driven very hard in rough conditions and often lots of stop and go driving everyday so buyer beware!

[neo von retorch]

Vaguely off topic ;)  but the 2023+ Colorado only has one engine option, a 2.7L turbo. They stopped offering the 2.5L with the generation change.

They do offer slight variations that affect overall power and fuel efficiency.

[spartana]

Vaguely off topic ;)  but the 2023+ Colorado only has one engine option, a 2.7L turbo. They stopped offering the 2.5L with the generation change.

They do offer slight variations that affect overall power and fuel efficiency.

Oops You're right. Not that it's too much of a difference but it's not a enormous 5.something L V8 most huge trucks have and still smaller than a mini van. Other then the Pacifica hybrid (over $50k - $60k new) most have V6s and cost much much more than a smaller truck like the new Colorado or Tacoma and, for many people, be much less functional. Even old vans are more expensive gas guzzlers compared to some old trucks. And don't get me started on the giant Suvs! Escalates and Suburbans and Denalis oh my!

[neo von retorch]

Still it's a bit misleading.

Chevy 2.7LT - 310 hp (19/23 city/highway)
Honda V6 - 280hp (19/28 city/highway)
Silverado 5.3L V8 - 355hp (16 city/20 highway)

(As pointed out earlier, that 3 mpg may be more significant than is obvious, going from consumption of 6.25 gallons / 100 miles in the city to 5.26 gallons, about 16% better. But... still only 16% better.)

[sonofsven]

I think another reason for the Ubiquitous Whiteness Of Work Trucks is that advertising and logos stand out against the white background.
The issue I had with big work vans is  the drivibility (they suck!) and the lack of 4WD (it is available on very few models).
Also, it gets annoying driving around with all yours tools banging around in the van, or sawdust, or stinky whatever. Once I had a kid and did a lot of kid pickups I didn't have the option to drive home and switch vehicles so I went back to the small pickup (new with modern safety) and a contractor cap on the back:  clear separation between the occupants and the "things that could impale you in a collision".
And the problem (to me) with most good mini vans like Honda And Toyota as work vans is that they rear door lifts up, which would get in the way of any material on the roof rack; you need barn doors on the back, IMO.

[RWD]

(As pointed out earlier, that 3 mpg may be more significant than is obvious, going from consumption of 6.25 gallons / 100 miles in the city to 5.26 gallons, about 16% better. But... still only 16% better.)

Going from 16 to 19 mpg saves as much fuel as going from 40 to 66 mpg.

[GilesMM]

I think another reason for the Ubiquitous Whiteness Of Work Trucks is that advertising and logos stand out against the white background.
The issue I had with big work vans is  the drivibility (they suck!) and the lack of 4WD (it is available on very few models).
Also, it gets annoying driving around with all yours tools banging around in the van, or sawdust, or stinky whatever. Once I had a kid and did a lot of kid pickups I didn't have the option to drive home and switch vehicles so I went back to the small pickup (new with modern safety) and a contractor cap on the back:  clear separation between the occupants and the "things that could impale you in a collision".
And the problem (to me) with most good mini vans like Honda And Toyota as work vans is that they rear door lifts up, which would get in the way of any material on the roof rack; you need barn doors on the back, IMO.

I've noticed some of the better managed service companies switching over from full size trucks and vans to Ford Transit Connect mini-vans (with rear symmetrical doors).  29 mpg hwy.  The tradesmen driving these cute little trucks look a bit sheepish about it, but they are very practical vehicles.

[markbike528CBX]

Just did a trip in a 5.4L jacked up truck.
It had transmission and electrical issues at 120,000 miles.
We had it because our son wanted a reliable vehicle to get his son’s 260miles round trip done, and borrowed our 2011 HHR.

I was mostly amazed at how rough the ride was on a smooth highway.
Every seam in the concrete was transmitted to my body.
My little sports car doesn’t feel those things.

[twinstudy]

I get the point about treading water, and I understand the challenge of financial illiteracy, but have a hard time comprehending how treading water and living in chaos is something one thinks they can adapt to by buying a truck? It's like expecting to use a brick as a paddle to help you swim. Just get in the boat of financial strength instead!

It is poverty mentality.  Say you're in the ocean, treading water.  You spend all your energy keeping your head above water, waiting for a rescue ship to come by.  You might be better off if you took off swimming in the direction of the closest island you remember passing.  But you don't have any more energy to spare.  If you try to make the swim, you fear you'll drown before you get anywhere, so the safest choice seems to just tread water for as long as you can and hope someone comes by.

The thing to realize about the poverty mindset is that the idea of ever achieving financial security is literally inconceivable.  You try to save money, the bank takes half of it with fees.  You stick money under your mattress, you get robbed, or you get hit with a medical bill that sucks it all away anyway.  You get a full-time job, but it involves working split shifts across town, and the bus isn't particularly reliable -- and then they cut your hours.  And there is no one in your whole acquaintance who has ever managed to work and save and escape to actual security (well, except the dealers, but they get shot and/or go to jail).  And even when good things happen, your confirmation bias keeps you from seeing them for what they are; the guy down the block who worked his way through college and now lives in the suburbs was "lucky," and nothing like that would ever happen to you.  Life is something that happens to you; the deck is stacked against you, and the best you can hope for is to tread water as long as you can.  [Meanwhile, the constant treading water means you're in constant fight-or-flight mode, which turns off the logical part of the brain, and makes good decisions even harder to make]

If you want to understand how poor people think, the first thing you have to do is take the idea of long-term financial security off the table.  When you start from that assumption, the logical response is to spend whatever money you make on things that improve your life now.  No, that guy can't afford a big fancy shiny new truck with a giant payment.  But he can afford a used one, which means he can help his sister when she gets evicted, help his buddy carry around junk he found to resell at a flea market, tote some bags of cement to help his mom fix the dangerous porch steps that the landlord has ignored, and generally help take care of the people he cares about and build his social capital.  And in return, his buddy will help him fix the truck when it breaks, or hook him up with a guy who sells cheap tires; his mom will feed him when he comes by; he can crash on his sister's couch when he loses his own apartment; and generally, everybody manages to get by somehow.

Your concept of 'poverty mentality' is rather self-reflexive though. By definition, someone with this mentality will always stay in poverty. But it is notable that many people who start life poor do just fine and have the resources or ability to get out of their poor state. My parents and my partner's parents, for example, each of whom came to a foreign country with no money, no language skills and no social capital (let alone actual capital).

So I don't accept that your post is the only descriptor of how poor people think. It describes how people who stay poor think.

[Sibley]

Your concept of 'poverty mentality' is rather self-reflexive though. By definition, someone with this mentality will always stay in poverty. But it is notable that many people who start life poor do just fine and have the resources or ability to get out of their poor state. My parents and my partner's parents, for example, each of whom came to a foreign country with no money, no language skills and no social capital (let alone actual capital).

So I don't accept that your post is the only descriptor of how poor people think. It describes how people who stay poor think.

A few minutes of googling indicate that perhaps your experience is limited. Lots of people do indeed stay poor.

https://webarchive.urban.org/publications/901356.html#:~:text=Abstract,%22persistently%22%20poor%20as%20children.
https://www.nccp.org/publication/child-poverty-and-intergenerational-mobility/
https://opportunityinsights.org/paper/race/
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/the-long-shadow-poverty-baltimore-poor-children/

[JLee]

Your concept of 'poverty mentality' is rather self-reflexive though. By definition, someone with this mentality will always stay in poverty. But it is notable that many people who start life poor do just fine and have the resources or ability to get out of their poor state. My parents and my partner's parents, for example, each of whom came to a foreign country with no money, no language skills and no social capital (let alone actual capital).

So I don't accept that your post is the only descriptor of how poor people think. It describes how people who stay poor think.

A few minutes of googling indicate that perhaps your experience is limited. Lots of people do indeed stay poor.

https://webarchive.urban.org/publications/901356.html#:~:text=Abstract,%22persistently%22%20poor%20as%20children.
https://www.nccp.org/publication/child-poverty-and-intergenerational-mobility/
https://opportunityinsights.org/paper/race/
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/the-long-shadow-poverty-baltimore-poor-children/

I think it's relevant to note that 'the poverty mentality' and 'being in poverty' are more of a venn diagram situation than they are different descriptors of the same thing.  Take an example of a motivated / hard working / financially responsible poor person who climbs out of it and gains financial independence vs someone who always feels like they're going to be stuck in poverty no matter what, so why not just treat themselves when they happen to have the money for it.

[twinstudy]

I never said poor people necessarily become not-poor, only that poor people do not necessarily stay poor.  (EDIT - in response to Sibley.)

I agree with JLee.

[FINate]

DD and I went fly fishing in the mountains yesterday, lots of Forest Service roads, needed 4WD in a few spots get to/from the river. The scenery was fantastic whereas the fishing was mediocre, probably because I spent way too much time getting DD untangled.

Anyway, as we were going through the city we saw a lifted 4x4 diesel pickup with modified exhaust. The young man driving apparently didn't know how to modulate the accelerator, which was either completely on or off. Here's the part I really don't understand... this lifted 4x4 had large low-profile tires making it pretty useless off road.

[Glenstache]

... and a lot of people with good incomes are living on the edge financially. Financial illiteracy and structural poverty issues are parallel and additive. If you have both, you are hosed. A lot of times people are also just buying the cheapest vehicle that they can get within their reasonable travel radius while in a tight logistical spot. Being poor can expensive because it can be difficult to leverage efficiencies when there just isnt the time and resource freeboard to make it happen. 

[TheGrimSqueaker]

I think it's relevant to note that 'the poverty mentality' and 'being in poverty' are more of a venn diagram situation than they are different descriptors of the same thing.  Take an example of a motivated / hard working / financially responsible poor person who climbs out of it and gains financial independence vs someone who always feels like they're going to be stuck in poverty no matter what, so why not just treat themselves when they happen to have the money for it.

You are right, they are overlapping things that are different. To break out of the poverty mentality requires insight and education. To break out of the poverty situation requires action.

We all know what happens when a person with a poverty mentality comes into sudden wealth but does not break free of the poverty mentality. He or she loses that windfall and ends up right back where he or she started.

Breaking out of the poverty mentality is relatively easy; all it requires is exposure and insight. As Milton said in "Paradise Lost," the mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a heaven of Hell; a hell of Heaven. Changing our mentality is a purely internal process, but the situation we have involves the behaviors of not just us, but the people around us to whom we are connected. They can pull us up, or allow us to lean against them for a while as equals, or pull us down. "Up" and "down", by the way, are relative terms. Each group has its baseline, which is a function of the group's values and behaviors. People within the group tend to be pulled toward wherever that bell curve is centered. The behaviors of people with a poverty mentality pull down a normal and functional person who operates at the mainstream middle-class level; the behaviors of normal middle-class debt slave people pull down a person committed to FIRE. Trying to rise to a higher level, when the people around you are not also committed to doing so, feels like being a crab in the proverbial barrel.

The means by which another person's emergency creates an emergency for us is the strength of the tie that binds us to that individual. When an individual is attached to someone who is self-destructive (and the reason for self-destructive behavior varies) the behavior of that attached individual can create an indirect financial emergency for an otherwise functional achiever. Anyone married to a compulsive gambler or serious practicing addict can explain just how easily it is for the responsible partner to be held legally and financially accountable for the self-destructive partner's binge behavior. If an otherwise functional person is emotionally enmeshed with a self-destructive person, then the emergencies generated by that individual's self-destructive ways are so troubling that the pain caused by sacrificing one's savings, or by going into serious debt, is less painful than watching the self-destructive individual experience the predictable consequences of his or her behavior. The only way to not get pulled down is to cut yourself free.

I hope none of us really expect the values and behavior of other people around us to change just because the contents of our own minds and pocketbooks do. That's not how human minds or values work.

Those of us who escape poverty and achieve functional adult independence, or who move beyond functional independence and achieve FIRE, are either surrounded by people with similar values and goals to start with, or else we achieve the minimum necessary level of physical, legal, financial, and emotional separation from people whose needy and chaotic behavior would otherwise drag us back down. Hence my scythe.

Separation is easier said than done because humans are social animals who start out dependent on other humans. It's not always easy or even possible to walk away from dependent minor children, a spouse you love, or a parent who is in need. If you have resources, or the ability to borrow, the desire to help a sibling or relative in need is often overwhelming. Make enough decisions like that, and take the hit for enough non-functioning adults, and it becomes impossible to save enough to invest. When someone close to you creates a crisis, sacrificing your savings and investments or taking on debt are painful, but the emotional consequences of *not* taking doing so are worse. I don't claim to have always been immune to this myself.

TL; DR version: if you're enmeshed with an adult who isn't functioning, it's often impossible to accumulate wealth. But it's sometimes possible to buy a truck.

[clarkfan1979]

I agree that a common explanation from people's trucks is that they "haul stuff". Why not just say, "I like it." I have 3 rentals and I don't own a truck. I haul stuff all the time in my 2007 Pontiac Vibe and 2003 Honda Odyssey. I just picked up a refrigerator in June from Home Depot with my Odyssey.

[LD_TAndK]

No one is taking a Camry hunting in the mountains in October

Driving unmaintained logging tracks hunting in the fall, I see all sorts of cars way out in the sticks far from the end of any pavement.  Grandma's old Buick Century and mom's Pontiac Grand Prix have hauled a whole lot of game home.

Most of the ways people use pickups hunting that demand four wheel drive aren't legal on public land anyway, at least outside of designated 4x4 playgrounds.

Two months ago I was meeting a group at a trailhead a ways down a forest road. I got my small cheap hybrid sedan with 5.2" ground clearance all the way to the end. A fellow with a fancy newish 4x4 f-150 parked a quarter mile from the end because the trail was getting too narrow with overgrowth and he didn't want to scratch up the truck.

[Glenstache]

Seen at trail head today. JDM FTW.

[JLee]

Seen at trail head today. JDM FTW.

Those are super cool, and it really sucks that some states are starting to ban them.

[ducky19]

I agree that a common explanation from people's trucks is that they "haul stuff". Why not just say, "I like it." I have 3 rentals and I don't own a truck. I haul stuff all the time in my 2007 Pontiac Vibe and 2003 Honda Odyssey. I just picked up a refrigerator in June from Home Depot with my Odyssey.

Also have 3 rentals and an 07 Vibe! It has hauled 95% of what I have needed to haul, the other 5% of the time I rent or borrow a truck.

[waltworks]

Unimog or nothing, yo.

-W

[Fru-Gal]

Sometimes I fantasize about getting a Kei truck.

[roomtempmayo]

@Fru-Gal There's currently an electric one on state surplus auction in Minnesota.  Current bid is $610, but sounds like it needs new batteries: mnbid.mn.gov/productView/2186

[RWD]

@Fru-Gal There's currently an electric one on state surplus auction in Minnesota.  Current bid is $610, but sounds like it needs new batteries: mnbid.mn.gov/productView/2186

It may look similar, but that one is 21 inches longer (+15%!) and 3 inches wider than a Kei truck.

[Dave1442397]

Sometimes I fantasize about getting a Kei truck.

They frequently pop up on Cars & Bids - https://carsandbids.com/auctions/rGlxb8e2/1995-subaru-sambar-4wd

[rothwem]

Sometimes I fantasize about getting a Kei truck.

Yeah, me too.  They're definitely neat, I've got a friend that had one.  Its sort of like a John Deere Gator that can do highway speeds with a roof.  I didn't fit in it easily at 6'2", but he's not that tall and he didn't have an issue.  The real problem is that they're priced similarly to an older Ford Ranger ($3-6000 range), which is about 1000% better at navigating American roads.  Payloads are similar, but the bed is a lot bigger on a ~1998 Ford Ranger and I'd bet that the Ranger would be cheaper to maintain than the Kei truck due to the fact that Kei trucks aren't really sold here. 

[LD_TAndK]

Pop quiz, which of my neighbors uses their truck for actual truck stuff (pic attached)

[RWD]

Pop quiz, which of my neighbors uses their truck for actual truck stuff (pic attached)

The one with the tool box in the bed, I'm sure.

[GuitarStv]

Pop quiz, which of my neighbors uses their truck for actual truck stuff (pic attached)

Trick question, it's actually the guy who owns the sedan in the background.

[ChpBstrd]

Pop quiz, which of my neighbors uses their truck for actual truck stuff (pic attached)

Trick question, it's actually the guy who owns the sedan in the background.

{blushes... next to 4x8 trailer pulled by Corolla, loaded with cinder blocks and lumber}

[spartana]

Pop quiz, which of my neighbors uses their truck for actual truck stuff (pic attached)

Trick question, it's actually the guy who owns the sedan in the background.

{blushes... next to 4x8 trailer pulled by Corolla, loaded with cinder blocks and lumber}

next to the woman on her human-powered bike hauling a trailer loaded with 8 foot long 4 x 4s and 60 lb cement bags so she can build a DIY fence. She passed you all already because she's not stuck in traffic and doesn't need to stop for gas or to recharge ;-).

[GuitarStv]

Pop quiz, which of my neighbors uses their truck for actual truck stuff (pic attached)

Trick question, it's actually the guy who owns the sedan in the background.

{blushes... next to 4x8 trailer pulled by Corolla, loaded with cinder blocks and lumber}

next to the woman on her human-powered bike hauling a trailer loaded with 8 foot long 4 x 4s and 60 lb cement bags so she can build a DIY fence. She passed you all already because she's not stuck in traffic and doesn't need to stop for gas or to recharge ;-).

Bikes . . . because sometimes you need to haul stuff around to get things done.

[sonofsven]

Pop quiz, which of my neighbors uses their truck for actual truck stuff (pic attached)

Trick question, it's actually the guy who owns the sedan in the background.

{blushes... next to 4x8 trailer pulled by Corolla, loaded with cinder blocks and lumber}

next to the woman on her human-powered bike hauling a trailer loaded with 8 foot long 4 x 4s and 60 lb cement bags so she can build a DIY fence. She passed you all already because she's not stuck in traffic and doesn't need to stop for gas or to recharge ;-).

Bikes . . . because sometimes you need to haul stuff around to get things done.

That top pic reminds me of a dog I had that tried to carry a big stick through a narrow gate.

[spartana]

^^^If you attach spears and pointy things to the end of the lumber you can build a Mad Max zombie apocalypse bicycle! Does that make it a dual sport bicycle? Sigh...this is making me miss my old beater truck.

[GuitarStv]

Pop quiz, which of my neighbors uses their truck for actual truck stuff (pic attached)

Trick question, it's actually the guy who owns the sedan in the background.

{blushes... next to 4x8 trailer pulled by Corolla, loaded with cinder blocks and lumber}

next to the woman on her human-powered bike hauling a trailer loaded with 8 foot long 4 x 4s and 60 lb cement bags so she can build a DIY fence. She passed you all already because she's not stuck in traffic and doesn't need to stop for gas or to recharge ;-).

Bikes . . . because sometimes you need to haul stuff around to get things done.

That top pic reminds me of a dog I had that tried to carry a big stick through a narrow gate.

I say attach pointy spikes to the ends of the pieces of wood and finally get the 3 ft of room that cars and trucks are supposed to give you when passing.  :P

[J.P. MoreGains]

Same thing with off road vehicles like jeeps... 99% of the use is to commute and 1% is on 4wd roads to get to a remote trailhead.

I really would like to be able to drive to a bunch of trailheads that I can't now but it's just not worth the extra cost.

When I do reach FI I would like to have a 4wd Toyota 4Runner to full time overland and live out of and wander to all the remote locations I would want to visit now but I cant.

At that point it would be worth it becuase basically all I would be doing would be overlanding full time and getting the value out of the 4wd expensive vehicle.

My city is full of tricked out jeeps with a lot of expensive off road extras that never get used.

[ChpBstrd]

Same thing with off road vehicles like jeeps... 99% of the use is to commute and 1% is on 4wd roads to get to a remote trailhead.

I really would like to be able to drive to a bunch of trailheads that I can't now but it's just not worth the extra cost.

When I do reach FI I would like to have a 4wd Toyota 4Runner to full time overland and live out of and wander to all the remote locations I would want to visit now but I cant.

At that point it would be worth it becuase basically all I would be doing would be overlanding full time and getting the value out of the 4wd expensive vehicle.

My city is full of tricked out jeeps with a lot of expensive off road extras that never get used.

In addition to 90+% of Jeeps never leaving the road, it seems to me like the sort of 4WD trails featured on commercials are getting increasingly rare. I say this as someone living in a predominantly rural state. Roads requiring 4WD are constantly being graded and graveled, and any sedan can handle a gravel road. It's fair to ask where exactly one plans to go in their 4WD vehicle that couldn't be reached in a car or minivan?

I can think of no mountain biking trails near me that require an off-road vehicle to access. My favorite rivers to canoe have drop-off and pickup points that are paved now. My family's rural property abuts national forest land, and their former fire roads are now 25 feet wide and smooth. Another rural property I visit has a well-maintained gravel road leading right to it. From hiking trails to camping sites to hunting clubs, there's very little open to the public with giant wash-outs in the road, fist-sized rocks all over the trail, or water crossings (low water bridges everywhere are being eradicated and replaced by overpasses). Road contractors have snatched up all these opportunities to pull in state or federal infrastructure funds.

If you're driving up an actually sketchy logging trail blazed by a skidder and requiring 4WD, you are probably trespassing. That's the impression in my rural state.

[Wintergreen78]

Same thing with off road vehicles like jeeps... 99% of the use is to commute and 1% is on 4wd roads to get to a remote trailhead.

I really would like to be able to drive to a bunch of trailheads that I can't now but it's just not worth the extra cost.

When I do reach FI I would like to have a 4wd Toyota 4Runner to full time overland and live out of and wander to all the remote locations I would want to visit now but I cant.

At that point it would be worth it becuase basically all I would be doing would be overlanding full time and getting the value out of the 4wd expensive vehicle.

My city is full of tricked out jeeps with a lot of expensive off road extras that never get used.

In addition to 90+% of Jeeps never leaving the road, it seems to me like the sort of 4WD trails featured on commercials are getting increasingly rare. I say this as someone living in a predominantly rural state. Roads requiring 4WD are constantly being graded and graveled, and any sedan can handle a gravel road. It's fair to ask where exactly one plans to go in their 4WD vehicle that couldn't be reached in a car or minivan?

I can think of no mountain biking trails near me that require an off-road vehicle to access. My favorite rivers to canoe have drop-off and pickup points that are paved now. My family's rural property abuts national forest land, and their former fire roads are now 25 feet wide and smooth. Another rural property I visit has a well-maintained gravel road leading right to it. From hiking trails to camping sites to hunting clubs, there's very little open to the public with giant wash-outs in the road, fist-sized rocks all over the trail, or water crossings (low water bridges everywhere are being eradicated and replaced by overpasses). Road contractors have snatched up all these opportunities to pull in state or federal infrastructure funds.

If you're driving up an actually sketchy logging trail blazed by a skidder and requiring 4WD, you are probably trespassing. That's the impression in my rural state.

That’s my experience too. I always figure I can park a mile or two short of where I want to go and hike/bike the last bit if needed. But, in practice I’m almost always able to drive right up to my destination in my hatchback.

Now, I have driven down a few roads while thinking that I am in the middle of a bad decision, but I haven’t got stuck yet!

[spartana]

Same thing with off road vehicles like jeeps... 99% of the use is to commute and 1% is on 4wd roads to get to a remote trailhead.

I really would like to be able to drive to a bunch of trailheads that I can't now but it's just not worth the extra cost.

When I do reach FI I would like to have a 4wd Toyota 4Runner to full time overland and live out of and wander to all the remote locations I would want to visit now but I cant.

At that point it would be worth it becuase basically all I would be doing would be overlanding full time and getting the value out of the 4wd expensive vehicle.

My city is full of tricked out jeeps with a lot of expensive off road extras that never get used.

In addition to 90+% of Jeeps never leaving the road, it seems to me like the sort of 4WD trails featured on commercials are getting increasingly rare. I say this as someone living in a predominantly rural state. Roads requiring 4WD are constantly being graded and graveled, and any sedan can handle a gravel road. It's fair to ask where exactly one plans to go in their 4WD vehicle that couldn't be reached in a car or minivan?

I can think of no mountain biking trails near me that require an off-road vehicle to access. My favorite rivers to canoe have drop-off and pickup points that are paved now. My family's rural property abuts national forest land, and their former fire roads are now 25 feet wide and smooth. Another rural property I visit has a well-maintained gravel road leading right to it. From hiking trails to camping sites to hunting clubs, there's very little open to the public with giant wash-outs in the road, fist-sized rocks all over the trail, or water crossings (low water bridges everywhere are being eradicated and replaced by overpasses). Road contractors have snatched up all these opportunities to pull in state or federal infrastructure funds.

If you're driving up an actually sketchy logging trail blazed by a skidder and requiring 4WD, you are probably trespassing. That's the impression in my rural state.

I had a Suzuki Samari 4 x 4 with a soft top when I lived in Alaska in the 90s. Cheap to buy. Cheap to run at around 28 - 30 mpg and went everywhere. I just left it in 4 x 4 mode thru out the winter as I often needed it to get out of my gravel driveway over the giant snow plow berm and drive thru snow evej around town. Not bad on the road either. Drove it from SoCal to Key West to Boston to Anchorage and back to SoCal over a span of several years - much of it in winter and spring on the Alcan. Very fun on deep rutted mud or snow choked roads but not meant for big hills. The short time I owned an old jeep CJ it was mostly broken down the whole time.