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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: FireLane on January 21, 2018, 12:14:34 PM

Title: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: FireLane on January 21, 2018, 12:14:34 PM
If this article is true, I may have bought my last American-made car. It says that the big Detroit automakers are planning to stop manufacturing almost all their small and mid-size passenger cars, ceding that market to Japanese and Korean companies like Toyota, and switching exclusively to trucks and SUVs which make them more money. Chrysler has already done this and GM and Ford are likely to follow suit:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-01-16/why-the-american-sedan-is-marked-for-death

Quote
Chief Executive Officer Sergio Marchionne started it off by killing the Dodge Dart and Chrysler 200 to reorient Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV around Jeep SUVs and Ram pickups. The profit boom that’s followed has emboldened Detroit’s other CEOs to consider snuffing out sedans such as the Ford Fusion and Chevrolet Impala.

“The industry thought Sergio was a mad man when he did that, and now he looks like a genius,” said Jeff Schuster, an analyst with LMC Automotive. “He paved the way for everyone. Now, with the Detroit brands, virtually every car is under review.”

It quotes some corporate suits who insist that environmentally minded types don't need to worry, because SUVs' fuel mileage isn't quite as bad as it used to be. But that misses the point. The reason Detroit likes these cars is because they're more profitable to the auto makers, i.e., they cost more!

This strategy is in direct opposition to the Mustachian mindset of buying the least amount of car you need, rather than tooling around town in a big, ugly, hard-to-maneuver SUV clown car whose extra storage space is unnecessary for 99% of the times you need to use it.

I have a Ford Fusion hybrid that's been economical and reliable, and I plan to drive it into the ground. But when the day comes that I need to replace it, I guess this means I'm getting a Prius. (Or a Tesla, if there are some good used ones on the market by then.)
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Sibley on January 21, 2018, 01:05:25 PM
Companies are free to make marketing decisions. They will have to accept the consequences of those decisions. Considering the globalization of the auto industry in all respects, I don't think it really matters what the brand is anymore.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: ohsnap on January 21, 2018, 04:37:49 PM
The authors acknowledge the cyclical nature of the US car & truck market which is influenced by gas prices & governmental policy.  Yet the entire article is premised on quotes like this one: "This market is going SUV and not looking back."  I'm old enough to remember several swings from gas-guzzlers to gas-sippers, including the one from just a few years ago.  I'm skeptical. 

Here's an article from last year that discusses the largest states accelerating increased CAFE standards despite the current administration's attempt to decrease them.  Ford has to sell Fusions in CA and NY to sell F150s there.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/24/business/energy-environment/california-upholds-emissions-standards-setting-up-face-off-with-trump.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/24/business/energy-environment/california-upholds-emissions-standards-setting-up-face-off-with-trump.html)
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: bacchi on January 21, 2018, 05:20:07 PM
Won't this mean that the fuel efficient cars they do sell will be cheap in order to meet CAFE?
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: facepalm on January 21, 2018, 09:19:17 PM
Won't this mean that the fuel efficient cars they do sell will be cheap in order to meet CAFE?
Yeah, no mention on how they will meet CAFE standards. Good luck with that.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: The Guru on January 22, 2018, 07:44:51 AM
This might not be as troubling as it seems on the surface, as I assume that smaller car-based crossovers are included under the SUV heading. OTOH, since it seems that Size= Price= Profit, those might be next on the chopping block. Time will tell.

Regardless, it typifies the short-sightedness of (what's left of) the domestic auto industry. I started driving around  the time of the Arab oil embargo and remember well how the US manufacturers- especially FiatChrysler's parent company- were caught flat-footed by the shift in demand. They rushed subcompacts to market; reengineered existing models with too-small engines and too-tall axle ratios and introduced "badge-engineered" imports, all while Toyota, Datsun (Nissan), Volkswagen and fledgling Honda ate their lunch. Car buyers were no wiser then than now, caught in a cycle of:

- Scramble to unload the old gas hog
- Substitute something smaller and more fuel-efficient until ...
- Fuel prices came down (but rarely back to what they had been when the crisis began) or until they got used to the higher prices, then
- "Upgrade" to something bigger and repeat

It's been forty plus years now, and neither car builders nor car buyers have apparently wised up. The fact that there's nothing on the horizon that suggests fuel prices are likely to rise anytime soon is immaterial; rise they will, and an embarrassing number of drivers and businesses will be astonished at the fact.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: NoVa on January 22, 2018, 08:51:10 AM
Won't this mean that the fuel efficient cars they do sell will be cheap in order to meet CAFE?
Yeah, no mention on how they will meet CAFE standards. Good luck with that.

Perhaps they have some assurance from the current administration that CAFE will be loosened or eliminated? That would seem to be the direction they are headed.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Cowardly Toaster on January 22, 2018, 11:16:51 AM
Incredible. We really do live in the United States of Amnesia. Does anyone not remember higher gas prices just 2.5 years ago!!!??????

Does anyone think that gas prices won't rise to 4$ or even 5$ and stay there for quite a while?
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Cranky on January 22, 2018, 12:55:34 PM
Well, I think they are counting on a sharp increase in the percentage of electric cars, and expect the price of gas to become increasingly irrelevant.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: daverobev on January 22, 2018, 02:04:55 PM
Incredible. We really do live in the United States of Amnesia. Does anyone not remember higher gas prices just 2.5 years ago!!!??????

Does anyone think that gas prices won't rise to 4$ or even 5$ and stay there for quite a while?

I think you overestimate the amount people care :P

Here, petrol is $1.14 Canadian a litre... err... so $3.44 a US gallon. In the UK it is more than $5 a US gallon already. People still drive. In Canada (again: much higher prices than the US), small car sales are falling and 'light truck' (not sure if that includes things like minivans - I know my van says Dodge light truck so...) sales are *booming*.

I mean - people will bitch and moan (about the government taxing them), but behaviour change? Meeeeh.

Well, until electric gets sexy. Hopefully Tesla can bring out an electric pickup truck sharpish, and have the gearheads go... wow, that is actually better than a V8.

Hopefully.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Purple Economist on January 22, 2018, 02:39:17 PM
Incredible. We really do live in the United States of Amnesia. Does anyone not remember higher gas prices just 2.5 years ago!!!??????

Does anyone think that gas prices won't rise to 4$ or even 5$ and stay there for quite a while?

I don't remember higher gas prices from 2.5 years ago.  I mean it peaked at like $2.50 here, which was not a big deal to me and not much higher than the $2.31 it is now.

I don't think gas prices will rise to $4 or $5 and stay there for quite a while.  If anything, I think it is more likely we have already hit peak oil prices and future prices are likely to be lower.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: daverobev on January 22, 2018, 02:53:31 PM
I mean - people will bitch and moan (about the government taxing them), but behaviour change? Meeeeh.
Except that when gas prices were over $4/gallon in the United States there was a drop-off in driving and people did start to shift over to more fuel efficient vehicles. Over in Europe most vehicles already take into account fuel prices (ex., engines turn off when stopped, engines tend to be smaller as well) and people are more likely to use public transit than the United States as well. Not exactly an even comparison.

https://www.motorists.org/blog/how-do-gasoline-prices-affect-driving-behavior/

A drop, yes, but not much of one, really.

Europe is much better for public transport because there are towns and cities all close by each other. The US and Canada are built, pretty much, around the car.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Travis on January 22, 2018, 03:41:54 PM
Incredible. We really do live in the United States of Amnesia. Does anyone not remember higher gas prices just 2.5 years ago!!!??????

Does anyone think that gas prices won't rise to 4$ or even 5$ and stay there for quite a while?

I think you overestimate the amount people care :P

Here, petrol is $1.14 Canadian a litre... err... so $3.44 a US gallon. In the UK it is more than $5 a US gallon already. People still drive. In Canada (again: much higher prices than the US), small car sales are falling and 'light truck' (not sure if that includes things like minivans - I know my van says Dodge light truck so...) sales are *booming*.

I mean - people will bitch and moan (about the government taxing them), but behaviour change? Meeeeh.

Well, until electric gets sexy. Hopefully Tesla can bring out an electric pickup truck sharpish, and have the gearheads go... wow, that is actually better than a V8.

Hopefully.

The Ford F-150 is one of the most popular vehicles in the US.  In my many trips to Europe I struggled to find one that wasn't owned by the local government or an American.  I think cheap oil and our shitty advertising are rubbing off on you guys up north.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: rosarugosa on January 22, 2018, 04:18:18 PM
 I came of age during the fuel lines of the seventies and I guess it made an impression on me.  No matter how cheap or plentiful gas might be at any given time, I can't imagine why I would want to spend any more on it than I need to spend.  Even if gas were $1.00/gallon, the less gallons I need to buy, the more dollars I get to keep.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: jinga nation on January 23, 2018, 06:41:20 AM
Incredible. We really do live in the United States of Amnesia. Does anyone not remember higher gas prices just 2.5 years ago!!!??????

Does anyone think that gas prices won't rise to 4$ or even 5$ and stay there for quite a while?

I think you overestimate the amount people care :P

Here, petrol is $1.14 Canadian a litre... err... so $3.44 a US gallon. In the UK it is more than $5 a US gallon already. People still drive. In Canada (again: much higher prices than the US), small car sales are falling and 'light truck' (not sure if that includes things like minivans - I know my van says Dodge light truck so...) sales are *booming*.

I mean - people will bitch and moan (about the government taxing them), but behaviour change? Meeeeh.

Well, until electric gets sexy. Hopefully Tesla can bring out an electric pickup truck sharpish, and have the gearheads go... wow, that is actually better than a V8.

Hopefully.

The Ford F-150 is one of the most popular vehicles in the US.  In my many trips to Europe I struggled to find one that wasn't owned by the local government or an American.  I think cheap oil and our shitty advertising are rubbing off on you guys up north.
Recently found out, via Pistonheads' Gassing Forums, that there's a whole sub-industry devoted to converting muscle cars to right-hand drive for UK use. Plus for the last couple of years the Wheeler Dealers show has gone from purchasing and fixing reliable cars to buying "Yank tanks" and American muscle and importing to UK.

Meanwhile, my in-laws purchased two gently used SUVs in the UK and had them exported to East Africa.

I have been informed this helps keep the total vehicle ground weight constant in the UK and prevents the Isles from sinking.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: fattest_foot on January 23, 2018, 03:34:15 PM
I don't remember higher gas prices from 2.5 years ago.  I mean it peaked at like $2.50 here, which was not a big deal to me and not much higher than the $2.31 it is now.

I don't think gas prices will rise to $4 or $5 and stay there for quite a while.  If anything, I think it is more likely we have already hit peak oil prices and future prices are likely to be lower.

Weird, because here in California we were up around $4 for a while just a few years ago. It's back down in the upper $2 range now.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: ohsnap on January 23, 2018, 03:38:20 PM
Won't this mean that the fuel efficient cars they do sell will be cheap in order to meet CAFE?
Yeah, no mention on how they will meet CAFE standards. Good luck with that.

Perhaps they have some assurance from the current administration that CAFE will be loosened or eliminated? That would seem to be the direction they are headed.

But the biggest states will keep or accelerate the goals - I posted a link upthread.  I'm not sure if this is something the feds can/will override.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on January 24, 2018, 07:56:36 AM
Hopefully the next time gas prices leap - and they will eventually - American car companies will be able to certify existing models being sold overseas by them quickly enough to be useful.

This similar sequence of events has happened so many times before. Eggs all in one basket.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Purple Economist on January 24, 2018, 09:15:11 PM
I don't remember higher gas prices from 2.5 years ago.  I mean it peaked at like $2.50 here, which was not a big deal to me and not much higher than the $2.31 it is now.

I don't think gas prices will rise to $4 or $5 and stay there for quite a while.  If anything, I think it is more likely we have already hit peak oil prices and future prices are likely to be lower.

Weird, because here in California we were up around $4 for a while just a few years ago. It's back down in the upper $2 range now.

I don't think it's weird that California and Kansas have different gas prices.  At one point a couple years ago gas was below $1.50 here.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: aasdfadsf on January 24, 2018, 09:59:10 PM
Ah, come on. It's been years since the US auto industry brought itself to the verge of bankruptcy because it failed to prepare for a high oil price and low demand environment. Almost a whole decade! You can't expect them to remember back that far.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: jinga nation on January 25, 2018, 06:57:06 AM
Ah, come on. It's been years since the US auto industry brought itself to the verge of bankruptcy because it failed to prepare for a high oil price and low demand environment. Almost a whole decade! You can't expect them to remember back that far.
Seems they have incorporated bankruptcies into their business cycle. Maybe they want to try that #TooBigToFail stunt again.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on January 25, 2018, 05:47:52 PM
Ford would be incredibly stupid to axe the Ford Fusion, since they sell 300,000 of them per year. That's a lot of cars. The people buying Ford Fusion aren't suddenly going to buy a Ford Escape. No, they are going to buy a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. Ford is run by idiots.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: The_Dude on January 25, 2018, 06:01:36 PM
I feel like either the article or the OP trolled the forum with this one. 

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see the article credibility explain that American Car companies are dropping everything for SUV's.  Dropping a single passenger car type does not equal dropping all passenger cars.  What a bunch of nonsense.

As a counter point here is an October 2017 article about GM planning to go all electric in the future.  Including plans to have 18 different electric cars by 2023. 
https://www.wired.com/story/general-motors-electric-cars-plan-gm/
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: facepalm on January 25, 2018, 07:50:19 PM
Well, I think they are counting on a sharp increase in the percentage of electric cars, and expect the price of gas to become increasingly irrelevant.
That scenario does make sense. EVs can achieve well over 100 MPG (equivalent), so if CAFE categorizes EV or hybrid vehicles similar to ICE, that may solve their problem.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Racer X on January 26, 2018, 07:51:48 AM
Ford would be incredibly stupid to axe the Ford Fusion, since they sell 300,000 of them per year. That's a lot of cars. The people buying Ford Fusion aren't suddenly going to buy a Ford Escape. No, they are going to buy a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. Ford is run by idiots.

It’s not the volume, it’s the profit margin per vehicle.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: dycker1978 on January 26, 2018, 07:54:40 AM
This doesn't surprise me, with people on the fourm recommending a pathfinder for a family with three kids.

Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: RWD on January 26, 2018, 08:07:09 AM
I wouldn't say American companies are abandoning efficient cars...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/10/gm-plans-add-20-new-electric-fuel-cell-cars-lineup-2023/
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Pizzabrewer on January 26, 2018, 08:11:06 AM
I always shake my head when those huge pickups race away at a green light or pull a power acceleration to pass me on the highway (yes, I'm one of those "slow" drivers who only do 5 over the limit). Those drivers obviously don't care about the price of gas.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: RFAAOATB on January 26, 2018, 11:25:35 AM
I always shake my head when those huge pickups race away at a green light or pull a power acceleration to pass me on the highway (yes, I'm one of those "slow" drivers who only do 5 over the limit). Those drivers obviously don't care about the price of gas.

One of the signs that I maybe had enough money in my life was when I stopped caring about the price of gas.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: MgoSam on January 26, 2018, 11:38:03 AM
If this is true, I'm going to be more outraged when auto companies ask for a bailout in 10-15 years.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on January 26, 2018, 12:55:14 PM
I wouldn't say American companies are abandoning efficient cars...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/10/gm-plans-add-20-new-electric-fuel-cell-cars-lineup-2023/

I thought fuel cell cars still were not very durable with the expensive fuel cell itself needing replacement often.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: RWD on January 26, 2018, 12:59:19 PM
I wouldn't say American companies are abandoning efficient cars...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/10/gm-plans-add-20-new-electric-fuel-cell-cars-lineup-2023/

I thought fuel cell cars still were not very durable with the expensive fuel cell itself needing replacement often.

There's still a lot of work to be done to make them even remotely close to economically viable. I personally wouldn't want a hydrogen powered car. I'm hoping most their research goes towards just normal electric cars.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: boarder42 on February 01, 2018, 05:41:09 AM
Incredible. We really do live in the United States of Amnesia. Does anyone not remember higher gas prices just 2.5 years ago!!!??????

Does anyone think that gas prices won't rise to 4$ or even 5$ and stay there for quite a while?

1. people dont care
2. i dont think we'll see gas that high again any time soon - electrification is coming - oil is being over produced still - 100 dollar barrel and oil MAY exist again once everything is electrified and production is throttled to control price to that level.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: jinga nation on February 01, 2018, 07:57:37 AM
Incredible. We really do live in the United States of Amnesia. Does anyone not remember higher gas prices just 2.5 years ago!!!??????

Does anyone think that gas prices won't rise to 4$ or even 5$ and stay there for quite a while?

1. people dont care
2. i dont think we'll see gas that high again any time soon - electrification is coming - oil is being over produced still - 100 dollar barrel and oil MAY exist again once everything is electrified and production is throttled to control price to that level.
Gas prices for regular jumped by 12 cents/gal this week. All of a sudden local media reporting on gas prices, public freaking out (probably those with less than $400 saved). Stop interviewing the posers with leased trucks at the gas stations with aftermarkets rims that can be rented. This happens every few months, the last big freakout was in Sept/Oct 2017.

Florida is number one state in the United States of Amnesia. So much winning that we're tired of it.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: zoltani on February 01, 2018, 01:55:18 PM
I feel like either the article or the OP trolled the forum with this one. 

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see the article credibility explain that American Car companies are dropping everything for SUV's.  Dropping a single passenger car type does not equal dropping all passenger cars.  What a bunch of nonsense.

As a counter point here is an October 2017 article about GM planning to go all electric in the future.  Including plans to have 18 different electric cars by 2023. 
https://www.wired.com/story/general-motors-electric-cars-plan-gm/

Yep! Ford is investing heavily in EV as well. The OP is manufacturing outrage.

"The carmaker (Ford) will shell out $11 billion bringing 40 electrified vehicles to market by 2022, Jim Farley, president of global markets, said during a presentation at the Detroit auto show. That’s up from the $4.5 billion that Ford said in late 2015 it would invest through the end of the decade."

Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on February 01, 2018, 02:23:03 PM
I have to wonder if car makers are going TOO deep on EVs. Some folks are still going to want a gasoline powered vehicle - either for trips or just because.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: boarder42 on February 01, 2018, 02:36:27 PM
I have to wonder if car makers are going TOO deep on EVs. Some folks are still going to want a gasoline powered vehicle - either for trips or just because.

just b/c you want it doesnt mean you will get it - or it will cost you a very high price to obtain and you wont have anywere to put your fuel in it.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: penguintroopers on February 02, 2018, 12:08:47 PM
I have to wonder if car makers are going TOO deep on EVs. Some folks are still going to want a gasoline powered vehicle - either for trips or just because.

just b/c you want it doesnt mean you will get it - or it will cost you a very high price to obtain and you wont have anywere to put your fuel in it.

Sounds like we have the opposite issue facing EV's right now, at least for my husband and I. More than we're willing to pay for a car at the moment, and we have no place to plug it in thanks to being renters.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: BDWW on February 02, 2018, 04:17:01 PM
Ford would be incredibly stupid to axe the Ford Fusion, since they sell 300,000 of them per year. That's a lot of cars. The people buying Ford Fusion aren't suddenly going to buy a Ford Escape. No, they are going to buy a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. Ford is run by idiots.

It’s not the volume, it’s the profit margin per vehicle.

I think you guys are reading way too much into a completely speculative article. I'd bet money the fusion isn't going anywhere.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Kashmani on February 04, 2018, 05:27:40 PM
The article should be read in context. I think there are three factors at play,

1) CAFE standards are more lenient for light trucks than for cars. That gives manufacturers an incentive to "truckify" ordinary family cars. Two early prime examples are the original Dodge Caravan and the PT Cruiser. Both were "trucks", invented primarily to get around CAFE standards.

2) Profit margin. 20 years ago you could buy a Taurus sedan or, for around $1,000 or $2,000 more, a Taurus wagon. Now, you can buy a Taurus sedan or, for $10,000 more, an Explorer. Same bloody car, but the "truckification" adds enough perceived value that people a much higher price difference than was common 20 years ago for the bigger trunk.

3) Comfort with debt. Nobody buys a car based on total price anymore. With people being comfortable with a monthly payment approach, nobody is balking at the extra cost of a crossover, so why offer a cheap wagon when you can offer an expensive crossover?

It also doesn't help that any hatchback or wagon now offered is made "sporty", i.e. impractical. These days, the choices pretty much are sedans or cross-overs, and people buy what is advertised. Sedans are largely money-losers, and the profit margin is in crossovers that have the price difference. So commercially, I can see how abandoning cars could work. More so if your cars are duds like the Chrysler 200 or 300 that are basically fleet staples with few consumer sales.

That said, Chrysler tried the same strategy 10 years ago and it backfired royally. If there is a gas price spike, an all-SUV lineup is very risky. I certainly would not be inclined to buy Fiat-Chryster stock right now. But what choice does Sergio Marchionne have? He tried to shop around for a buyer on multiple occasions but never found any takers. So maximizing current profits based on a "truckification" strategy is probably the least bad decision he could have made.

I have personally given up on cheap wagons ever making a comeback and paid the premium for a crossover a few years ago.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on February 05, 2018, 08:28:45 AM
We have an older sedan and a newer crossover that get almost the same fuel economy. If I was entering a sedan/wagon and generally driving a 100+ miles I'd think it was grand. Because most of our trips are short (around town) - we surely prefer the crossover for entering and exiting. Parking is not an issue here - not like I've seen in famous cities I've visited.

I'd rate both our vehicles similar for difficulty to park.

The right answer for an around town as DW and I age would be a small crossover like the HRV/Juke/CH-R/Trax/Encore or the older, smaller CRV.

When we were younger, more flexible and really skinny us climbing into a tiny car was not a problem. Now we are middle aged and our backseat is carries almost an adult and a teen going through a growth spurt. 

A tiny compact car no longer gets the job done comfortably. Our teen has a car like that and its a trick to fit us all inside. The backseat is not fun for me. Roof is low, door opening is smallish, legroom is smallish.

Further clouding the issue is that some of the mid-sized crossovers are approaching early 2000s car like fuel economy. 

I get the idea of buying the most efficient, tiniest car to speed FIRE along but I think we can accomplish the same by buying very used vehicles and keeping it forever.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: boarder42 on February 05, 2018, 10:51:56 AM
I have to wonder if car makers are going TOO deep on EVs. Some folks are still going to want a gasoline powered vehicle - either for trips or just because.

just b/c you want it doesnt mean you will get it - or it will cost you a very high price to obtain and you wont have anywere to put your fuel in it.

Sounds like we have the opposite issue facing EV's right now, at least for my husband and I. More than we're willing to pay for a car at the moment, and we have no place to plug it in thanks to being renters.

correct we're talking about a dynamic shift infrastructure up to and including owning a car at all.  and its not nearly as far away as people think.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: coldestcat on February 05, 2018, 11:55:33 AM
I have to wonder if car makers are going TOO deep on EVs. Some folks are still going to want a gasoline powered vehicle - either for trips or just because.

just b/c you want it doesnt mean you will get it - or it will cost you a very high price to obtain and you wont have anywere to put your fuel in it.

Sounds like we have the opposite issue facing EV's right now, at least for my husband and I. More than we're willing to pay for a car at the moment, and we have no place to plug it in thanks to being renters.

Im with boarder. I also rent and my wife and I bought a chevy Spark. It works great for our circumstances being able to charge it at work some times (If the port is available), and I understand not everyone has that. However I think it is so much better driving not to mention all the reason why we NEED to shift to electric. My father in law also just bought a gas car, not even a hybrid, because I dont know..old dog trick reasons I guess...
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 13, 2018, 08:29:21 AM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on February 13, 2018, 08:46:34 AM
Not always. One side of the family buys GM, the other side Fords/Chrysler/Dodge. The GM cars were always good to about 200K miles with a few repairs.

The other side replaces cars far sooner so I don't know how long those might last. ;) Ooops - getting close to 100K miles, time to replace (in a time where most cars will go 250K miles with some TLC).

We have an older GM sedan purchased cheap and used. Its required a few repairs but it is reliable and VERY cheap to own. Sort of bland but I like it for the work it gets done for us on the cheap.

Imports: Asian brands have been good to us. European imports have been more maintenance/repair intensive than even the American domestics. Not a big deal if you can DIY the repairs on the cheap.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Clean Shaven on February 13, 2018, 08:52:07 AM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it
In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: zoltani on February 13, 2018, 10:03:42 AM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 13, 2018, 10:22:19 AM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: jinga nation on February 13, 2018, 11:45:02 AM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Bet you haven't owned a Crown Vic, easy to fix. Get a used one with P71. That thing will keep on rolling.

What British marques? There's ain't none unless it's a McLaren. JLR is owned by the Indians, Mini by ze Germans, same goes for RR and Bentley, Rover's owned by China. Vauxhall was owned by Americans, now it's French.

BTW, my 2006 Honda Accord and Civic were built in USA, with over 70% of content domestic. So is my car American or Japanese? Same for the US-designed and built VW Passat, which is different from the German/International model.

In an era of globalization, is calling a vehicle American, Asian, or European an exercise in futility?

In East Africa, sales of new/used small & large SUVs are increasing while sedan sales are in reverse. So it isn't an American thing only.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on February 13, 2018, 11:49:58 AM
I know for a fact that some of the VWs are very different critters from their European built cousins. Different designs, different price points, different parts suppliers, different factories (Mexico). And VWs are better now than they were in the late 90s and early 2000s quality wise.

Years ago when I lived in Europe I was impressed with some of the cars that Ford and GM were building for European markets. What they sold here in the USA was either entirely a different product or watered down.

Just companies chasing profits. Can't blame them for that. They put the effort where the profits are here in the USA which as we all know are in trucks and SUVs.

As much as I've enjoyed my Hondas - they were durable/reliable but not always as refined as they could have been. Put a sixth gear and some sound deadening in already! Honda has gotten better in that regard too.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Clean Shaven on February 13, 2018, 11:54:13 AM
Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Just curious:  what do you drive?

As to German "quality engineering" and the like -- I give you this article from Jalopnik today, regarding the VW Toureg V10 TDI. 
https://jalopnik.com/the-volkswagen-touareg-v10-tdi-was-more-of-a-nightmare-1822934503
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 13, 2018, 11:57:35 AM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Bet you haven't owned a Crown Vic, easy to fix. Get a used one with P71. That thing will keep on rolling.

What British marques? There's ain't none unless it's a McLaren. JLR is owned by the Indians, Mini by ze Germans, same goes for RR and Bentley, Rover's owned by China. Vauxhall was owned by Americans, now it's French.

BTW, my 2006 Honda Accord and Civic were built in USA, with over 70% of content domestic. So is my car American or Japanese? Same for the US-designed and built VW Passat, which is different from the German/International model.

In an era of globalization, is calling a vehicle American, Asian, or European an exercise in futility?

In East Africa, sales of new/used small & large SUVs are increasing while sedan sales are in reverse. So it isn't an American thing only.

By "American" I mean the Detroit companies. It's not so much about factory location, but about company focus and priorities. Asian companies prioritized reliability and price, German's focused on precise engineering, and US manufacturers on ... huge cars? Ads with horses in them?

Same with british ones. Yes they're owned by foreign firms now, but the culture remains. Volvo is owned by chineese firm, but still focus on safety.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 13, 2018, 12:05:07 PM
Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Just curious:  what do you drive?

As to German "quality engineering" and the like -- I give you this article from Jalopnik today, regarding the VW Toureg V10 TDI. 
https://jalopnik.com/the-volkswagen-touareg-v10-tdi-was-more-of-a-nightmare-1822934503

We have a Prius and Subaru. 5/9 years old. They're ok. Been some repairs on the subaru, but usually cheap. Had a VW golf, was a repair PIA. Same with a volvo. Going all asian car from now on.

Didn't mean that I'm particularly fond of German cars. My parents had Audis for a while and were quite the hassle, and very expensive to fix. I'd never pay that kind of money for one. German engineering is good, but often too finicky for its own good. Stuff can break quite easily and is a pain to repair. Probably more reliable than US cars (not saying much), but more complex so cost more to fix. Like choosing plague or cholera IMO.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 13, 2018, 12:24:09 PM
Ford Fiesta and Focus (sedans and hatchbacks). Chevy Spark, Sonic (sedan and hatchback),  Cruze, Volt. Dodge Dar. Buick Veranzo. Etc...  There ate small american cars that are hugely popular. I've had a couple of Fords (Focus and Rangers) all did well with no problems even when around 150k plus miles. I doubt american manufactures will drop their small cars which are popular in places like Calif which has high gas prices (currently around $3.50 for reg and close to $4 for premium).

Well, it's only slightly below average, not bad for detroit..
http://dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Ford_Focus.html

Ford in general not looking so hot at 39 out of 100.
http://dashboard-light.com/reports/Ford.html
Chevy is a 46, right behind Saab

And yes I know they made small cars, but their bread and butter was always massive boats. And that seemed to be the thing they could offer; more opulent and ridiculous cars than the others. I did drive a 1985 chevy van a short while, with giant cushy upholstered sofas for seats. Was hilarious.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Prairie Stash on February 13, 2018, 12:26:34 PM
"Cars that probably won’t survive are large sedans like Ford’s Taurus and its competitors,"
"GM is weighing the fate of increasingly irrelevant Buicks, Chevys and Cadillac cars,"
"Fiat Chrysler may not be done, with models like the big Chrysler 300 sedan—once the preferred ride of rap stars—now looking vulnerable."

It looks like they're killing off large sedans with poor gas mileage, to be replaced by mid sized cars.

lan Batey, president of GM’s North American business.
“You’ve got to look at compact cars and mid-size cars still being very large volume,” Batey said in an interview.

But what will Rap stars drive? That's the real question here.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: zoltani on February 13, 2018, 01:04:53 PM
"Cars that probably won’t survive are large sedans like Ford’s Taurus and its competitors,"
"GM is weighing the fate of increasingly irrelevant Buicks, Chevys and Cadillac cars,"
"Fiat Chrysler may not be done, with models like the big Chrysler 300 sedan—once the preferred ride of rap stars—now looking vulnerable."

It looks like they're killing off large sedans with poor gas mileage, to be replaced by mid sized cars.

lan Batey, president of GM’s North American business.
“You’ve got to look at compact cars and mid-size cars still being very large volume,” Batey said in an interview.

But what will Rap stars drive? That's the real question here.

A rarri of course
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: GuitarStv on February 13, 2018, 01:11:28 PM
I'm hoping that blingin road bikes will be adopted as the new status symbols.  The world needs more Pinarello Dogma F10s on the used market.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Clean Shaven on February 13, 2018, 01:14:24 PM

We have a Prius and Subaru. 5/9 years old. They're ok. Been some repairs on the subaru, but usually cheap. Had a VW golf, was a repair PIA. Same with a volvo. Going all asian car from now on.

I'm with you on the Japanese/Korean cars for my own personal choices.  From a reliability standpoint, can't beat them.  OTOH, I don't think American brands are that much behind in passenger car reliability.  While I would not pick a new Malibu over an Accord, I don't think it would be a bad choice at all as a 3 year old used option, and cheaper (more heavily depreciated) than the Japanese competitors.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: GuitarStv on February 13, 2018, 01:20:05 PM
I don't think American brands are that much behind in passenger car reliability.

Eh . . .

(https://article.images.consumerreports.org/prod/content/dam/cro/news_articles/cars/CR-Cars-II-Brand-Comparison-Chart-10-15)


It seems that American cars when they're bad, are pretty bad.  When they're good, they're about on par with the bad Japanese cars.

Except Buicks . . . which apparently rock.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Clean Shaven on February 13, 2018, 01:28:53 PM
What's that chart actually rating?  Why are brands that are basically the same so far apart?  Audi/VW, Nissan/Infiniti, Buick/GM/Chevrolet, Honda/Acura? 

From my own personal biases, any kind of quality ranking that lists Audi as near the top is automatically highly suspect. 
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: RWD on February 13, 2018, 01:43:07 PM
Except Buicks . . . which apparently rock.

Aren't Buicks mostly rebadged Opels these days?
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 13, 2018, 01:44:32 PM
What's that chart actually rating?  Why are brands that are basically the same so far apart?  Audi/VW, Nissan/Infiniti, Buick/GM/Chevrolet, Honda/Acura? 

From my own personal biases, any kind of quality ranking that lists Audi as near the top is automatically highly suspect.

that's why I use long term quality index.
http://www.dashboard-light.com/
Still puts US brands around average or below.
(http://dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Resources/Images/QIRAlpha.png)
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: GuitarStv on February 13, 2018, 01:46:43 PM
What's that chart actually rating?

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-how-car-brands-compare-for-reliability/ (https://www.consumerreports.org/cars-how-car-brands-compare-for-reliability/)
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: ketchup on February 13, 2018, 01:51:43 PM
Except Buicks . . . which apparently rock.
Had a 1992 Buick that died in 2016 at 200,775.  Giant old thing with shitty gas mileage but it was reliable as hell and very cheap to maintain apart from all the gas.  I'll vouch for Buick.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: TheWifeHalf on February 13, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
If this kind of question is not alowed here, just ignore but:

My Dad's been dead 19 years now, so when TheHusbandHalf and I went to the local car show last weekend, he actually made a point to look at the Honda Pilot. (Dad was a Ford guy, since his Crown Vic days - 1956!) Our son has had Hondas for 15 years with out any problems, so we looked.
Does anyone here have experience owning one, good or bad? I was just so shocked he wanted to look at them.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: jinga nation on February 13, 2018, 02:40:49 PM
I'm hoping that blingin road bikes will be adopted as the new status symbols.  The world needs more Pinarello Dogma F10s on the used market.
Oh git off yer saddle mate!
Rather a Bianchi modelo Jan Ullrich. Juiced and ready to go!

How about something more "American" like Trek or Specialized? Or Cervelo and Cannondale for you Canadians?

But +1 to pimp your bicicleta!
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on February 13, 2018, 03:19:19 PM
If this kind of question is not alowed here, just ignore but:

My Dad's been dead 19 years now, so when TheHusbandHalf and I went to the local car show last weekend, he actually made a point to look at the Honda Pilot. (Dad was a Ford guy, since his Crown Vic days - 1956!) Our son has had Hondas for 15 years with out any problems, so we looked.
Does anyone here have experience owning one, good or bad? I was just so shocked he wanted to look at them.

I'll let you know what I think in another 50K miles. Like the Pilot? Look at a used Acura MDX too. Same beast of burden with some polish. I've owned alot of Hondas - cars, SUVs, motorcycles, generators, and lawnmowers. Mostly have only needed maintenance.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: JLee on February 13, 2018, 05:32:37 PM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Have you driven an American car in the last 10 years?
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 13, 2018, 05:47:17 PM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Have you driven an American car in the last 10 years?
Couple rentals. But that's irrelevant. I'm not taking about anecdotal stories of how great /terrible one person's car is. I'm looking at statistic on reliability and repairs. And as shown above it still doesn't look good for US brands
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: JLee on February 13, 2018, 06:03:40 PM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Have you driven an American car in the last 10 years?
Couple rentals. But that's irrelevant. I'm not taking about anecdotal stories of how great /terrible one person's car is. I'm looking at statistic on reliability and repairs. And as shown above it still doesn't look good for US brands

I was more referring to the "size of a small apartment" comment.  You appear to be stuck in the 70's.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 13, 2018, 10:33:50 PM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Have you driven an American car in the last 10 years?
Couple rentals. But that's irrelevant. I'm not taking about anecdotal stories of how great /terrible one person's car is. I'm looking at statistic on reliability and repairs. And as shown above it still doesn't look good for US brands

I was more referring to the "size of a small apartment" comment.  You appear to be stuck in the 70's.
Well yeah, that used to be their one selling point. Now they (also) make small cars like the Asian companies. Except way shittier.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: alsoknownasDean on February 13, 2018, 11:52:00 PM
It's not just American brands...or in the US.

Here Nissan don't sell anything (aside from the 370Z and GT-R) that isn't an SUV or a pickup truck. Mitsubishi only sell the Mirage and the decade-old Lancer in a sea of SUVs. An awful lot of the car marketing is for SUVs and 'Super Size Me' pickup trucks.

I suspect that the car makers are focusing all of their marketing efforts on the more profitable vehicles, and letting their smaller car lineup to wither on the vine.

FWIW, I rented a Chevy Sonic in the US a couple of years ago and it was fine. I doubt that all American cars are that bad.

Recently found out, via Pistonheads' Gassing Forums, that there's a whole sub-industry devoted to converting muscle cars to right-hand drive for UK use. Plus for the last couple of years the Wheeler Dealers show has gone from purchasing and fixing reliable cars to buying "Yank tanks" and American muscle and importing to UK.

Meanwhile, my in-laws purchased two gently used SUVs in the UK and had them exported to East Africa.

I have been informed this helps keep the total vehicle ground weight constant in the UK and prevents the Isles from sinking.

There's been a big market here in Aus for years to import and convert American cars and trucks. There's a few here that are prepared to pay twice the price of a Hilux or Ranger for an imported/converted F series or RAM.

Also, the article talks about GM/Ford/Chrysler killing all of their passenger cars. Maybe in the US, but I doubt it'll happen in all markets. They'll still keep cars like the Focus around for Europe.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: libertarian4321 on February 14, 2018, 02:49:12 AM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Did you write this in 1987 (when it was actually true)?

When we were going to make a TX to NY trip last fall, my wife insisted that we take her BMW (50k miles on it), because it's "reliable" rather than my old Chevy truck.

Of course, the BMW conked out just outside Louisville, KY.  A complete fail on it's first long distance trip.  Fast forward a couple of days and a $4,000 in repair costs (plus hotel costs) and we were merrily on our way. 

That darned BMW is so over engineered/overly complex/sensitive that it's almost as if it's designed to fail in anything more rugged than a daily commute to work.

I've made that same trip at least a dozen times in my 2002 Chevy Silverado.  I'm 99.9% sure I could hop in it right now and drive straight through, stopping for nothing but gas, food, and restrooms, and it would run like a champ.  I'd bet my next paycheck on it.

BTW, my wife's previous car, an Acura, wasn't all that reliable either (though not as expensive to repair).

She also, of course, believes the "American vehicles suck" myth.  But I think she believes it a bit less every time she has to shell out big money to fix her fancy German and Japanese luxury vehicles, while my ugly old Chevy truck keeps on truckin'.


Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 14, 2018, 04:50:01 AM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Did you write this in 1987 (when it was actually true)?

When we were going to make a TX to NY trip last fall, my wife insisted that we take her BMW (50k miles on it), because it's "reliable" rather than my old Chevy truck.

Of course, the BMW conked out just outside Louisville, KY.  A complete fail on it's first long distance trip.  Fast forward a couple of days and a $4,000 in repair costs (plus hotel costs) and we were merrily on our way. 

That darned BMW is so over engineered/overly complex/sensitive that it's almost as if it's designed to fail in anything more rugged than a daily commute to work.

I've made that same trip at least a dozen times in my 2002 Chevy Silverado.  I'm 99.9% sure I could hop in it right now and drive straight through, stopping for nothing but gas, food, and restrooms, and it would run like a champ.  I'd bet my next paycheck on it.

BTW, my wife's previous car, an Acura, wasn't all that reliable either (though not as expensive to repair).

She also, of course, believes the "American vehicles suck" myth.  But I think she believes it a bit less every time she has to shell out big money to fix her fancy German and Japanese luxury vehicles, while my ugly old Chevy truck keeps on truckin'.
Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. This isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I have no emotional investment in the brand of my car, or against others. Cars these days all get you from A to B the same way. I don't give a crap about what I drive, I don't care about horse power or features (beyond a certain point), I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American. (unless they made something nobody else made i guess)
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Clean Shaven on February 14, 2018, 06:55:06 AM


Quote

Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. This isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American.

Re: statistics - the two charts posted above actually contradict each other. One has Kia and Mazda at the top of the ratings, the other is opposite.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: RWD on February 14, 2018, 07:41:48 AM
Quote

Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. This isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American.

Re: statistics - the two charts posted above actually contradict each other. One has Kia and Mazda at the top of the ratings, the other is opposite.

They don't contradict each other because they are measuring different things and the data sets are different.

The Consumer Reports chart is predicted reliability based on customer surveys on vehicles that are less than three years old (https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/consumer-reports-car-reliability-faq/). It also includes non-critical problems like squeaks/rattles, failing accessories, poorly working infotainment systems, etc. which can partly explain why luxury brands (e.g. Acura/Infiniti) are often worse than their normal (e.g. Honda/Nissan) counterparts (more features that can fail/break).

The Dashboard Light (http://www.dashboard-light.com/how-we-figure-out-the-score/) scores come from a much larger range of model years (over two decades) and I believe focuses primarily (or maybe exclusively) on powertrain issues.

If you want yet another data point you can look at TrueDelta (https://www.truedelta.com/) which is entirely user reported.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on February 14, 2018, 09:56:49 AM
Quote
Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. But this isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I have no emotional investment in the brand of my car, or against others. Cars these days all get you from A to B the same way. I don't give a crap about what I drive, I don't care about horse power or features (beyond a certain point), I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American. (unless they made something nobody else made i guess)

So how are these stats collected? Customers range from hyper-sensitive to oblivious. That might even come with a sense or lack of expectations based on the purchase price of the vehicle.

Same for the dealers that might be reporting some of these stats. Some are honest and some are not. They both exist in great quantity.

And then I have my own variable to add to the equation: 40 yrs of DIY repairs and a career as an engineer.

My point is that a great number of people I know own and operate American vehicles without any drama for very long periods of time. I can't accept those stats blindly.

Edit: fixed the quoting. And it still looks broken.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 14, 2018, 10:40:52 AM
Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. This isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I have no emotional investment in the brand of my car, or against others. Cars these days all get you from A to B the same way. I don't give a crap about what I drive, I don't care about horse power or features (beyond a certain point), I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American. (unless they made something nobody else made i guess)
Quote

So how are these stats collected? Customers range from hyper-sensitive to oblivious. That might even come with a sense or lack of expectations based on the purchase price of the vehicle.

Same for the dealers that might be reporting some of these stats. Some are honest and some are not. They both exist in great quantity.

And then I have my own variable to add to the equation: 40 yrs of DIY repairs and a career as an engineer.

My point is that a great number of people I know own and operate American vehicles without any drama for very long periods of time. I can't accept those stats blindly.

So in summary; you don't accept statistics "blindly" (whatever that means?). Stats from 500,000 or more car repairs gathered over decades. You lean more towards data from the cars you've come in contact with, and can remember. Accounting for recency bias, belief reinforcement etc? And stories from "great number of people"?
You do that, I'll stick with the stats.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on February 14, 2018, 12:37:13 PM
I know, I know. If stats show ACME motors to be a piece of crap but then I've owned one and it was good to me, so I'm gonna argue.

I'm only spending MY money so I guess it hurts nobody.

The stats don't usually call out what went wrong - just that SOMETHING went wrong. Was it the a/c ($1000) or the alternator ($100)? Was it a complete engine failure or the rear window wiper? Some of that stuff is easy to DIY on the cheap - even if a guy like me buys the OEM part from an online dealer. Some fo that stuff could be ignored forever too. Oh - a rear speaker went out? Is that a crisis? (I would just fix it).

I have owned one of the late 90s VWs which the stats and the internet says are absolute crap. If I relied solely on dealer service it would cost me a blooming fortune to operate. In reality I know that if the ignition switch goes out again - a known weak spot - that I can repair it in 30 minutes with a $12 part from NAPA. The stats won't detail that though. I had a cracked coil which took 10 minutes to repair and $30 for the part. A wheel bearing failed and cost $35 for the part I think and an hour to install it in the driveway. What never broke was the driveline, the chassis, the suspension, the windows, the heater, etc. It was all dinky shit that VW should have made a better effort on.

My eldest teenager has a dinky Asian car that supposedly ought to go straight to the crusher at the five year mark and its approaching 18 years old and still delivering reliable miles. We might spend $100 a year on it plus oil changes. It scored low on the long term quality stats too back then.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: WhiteTrashCash on February 14, 2018, 02:58:19 PM
If you own an American car from 2005 or later, then don't worry about it. The difference in reliability between American and Japanese makes has become negligible. Now you basically buy the Japanese makes for better resale because American makes sell more to fleets. But the upside of that is the fact that you can usually buy a used American car for much less. If you want a reliable car that you plan to keep forever until the wheels fall off -- as Mustachians tend to do -- then a recent American make is a good idea so you can save some cash. The exception to this rule is anything ever made by Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep. Their vehicles have always been and continue to be absolute trash.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: jinga nation on February 14, 2018, 03:52:38 PM
If you own an American car from 2005 or later, then don't worry about it. The difference in reliability between American and Japanese makes has become negligible. Now you basically buy the Japanese makes for better resale because American makes sell more to fleets. But the upside of that is the fact that you can usually buy a used American car for much less. If you want a reliable car that you plan to keep forever until the wheels fall off -- as Mustachians tend to do -- then a recent American make is a good idea so you can save some cash. The exception to this rule is anything ever made by Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep. Their vehicles have always been and continue to be absolute trash.
Good points.
But just an anecdotal point: went to Northern Virginia for a work trip last 2 days. All the cars at Hertz at IAD for mid-size were Hyundai Sonata and Nissan Altima. A lot of Nissan Rogue and Sentra, Hyundai SUVs and Elantra too. So you can say that rental fleets are becoming more Asian vehicles, at least at Hertz. I think I saw only one Chevy Impala, a couple of Kia Optima, one Mazda 3 sedan, and the luxury collection was mainly Infiniti with a couple of MB.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: RWD on February 14, 2018, 05:29:22 PM
If you own an American car from 2005 or later, then don't worry about it. The difference in reliability between American and Japanese makes has become negligible. Now you basically buy the Japanese makes for better resale because American makes sell more to fleets. But the upside of that is the fact that you can usually buy a used American car for much less. If you want a reliable car that you plan to keep forever until the wheels fall off -- as Mustachians tend to do -- then a recent American make is a good idea so you can save some cash. The exception to this rule is anything ever made by Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep. Their vehicles have always been and continue to be absolute trash.
Good points.
But just an anecdotal point: went to Northern Virginia for a work trip last 2 days. All the cars at Hertz at IAD for mid-size were Hyundai Sonata and Nissan Altima. A lot of Nissan Rogue and Sentra, Hyundai SUVs and Elantra too. So you can say that rental fleets are becoming more Asian vehicles, at least at Hertz. I think I saw only one Chevy Impala, a couple of Kia Optima, one Mazda 3 sedan, and the luxury collection was mainly Infiniti with a couple of MB.

Nissans were the most common rental cars in 2017:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/12/dont-gentle-rental-nissan-boosts-u-s-sales-numbers-flooding-americas-fleets/
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: aboatguy on February 15, 2018, 07:12:31 AM
I have to wonder if car makers are going TOO deep on EVs. Some folks are still going to want a gasoline powered vehicle - either for trips or just because.

just b/c you want it doesnt mean you will get it - or it will cost you a very high price to obtain and you wont have anywere to put your fuel in it.

There will always be fuel for internal combustion engines.   During WWII  folks in occupied europe built gassifiers to run their vehicles with wood.


Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: JLee on February 15, 2018, 07:37:21 AM
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Did you write this in 1987 (when it was actually true)?

When we were going to make a TX to NY trip last fall, my wife insisted that we take her BMW (50k miles on it), because it's "reliable" rather than my old Chevy truck.

Of course, the BMW conked out just outside Louisville, KY.  A complete fail on it's first long distance trip.  Fast forward a couple of days and a $4,000 in repair costs (plus hotel costs) and we were merrily on our way. 

That darned BMW is so over engineered/overly complex/sensitive that it's almost as if it's designed to fail in anything more rugged than a daily commute to work.

I've made that same trip at least a dozen times in my 2002 Chevy Silverado.  I'm 99.9% sure I could hop in it right now and drive straight through, stopping for nothing but gas, food, and restrooms, and it would run like a champ.  I'd bet my next paycheck on it.

BTW, my wife's previous car, an Acura, wasn't all that reliable either (though not as expensive to repair).

She also, of course, believes the "American vehicles suck" myth.  But I think she believes it a bit less every time she has to shell out big money to fix her fancy German and Japanese luxury vehicles, while my ugly old Chevy truck keeps on truckin'.
Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. This isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I have no emotional investment in the brand of my car, or against others. Cars these days all get you from A to B the same way. I don't give a crap about what I drive, I don't care about horse power or features (beyond a certain point), I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American. (unless they made something nobody else made i guess)

"Reliability" is tricky to measure.  A "problem" could be "my electric seat motor didn't work so I had it repaired under warranty", and a "problem" could also be "my car died on the highway."  The charts won't tell you this.

Edit: I see many others have already talked about this in more detail. Oops!
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on February 15, 2018, 07:48:47 AM
I ran across a fellow recently on the web that was complaining about a clicking noise coming from the front end of his expensive car. Turned it in for a warranty repair.

It was the brake pads clicking when he was maneuvering back and forth around a parking lot. The pads were just shifting in the calipers.

I knew exactly what it was when I read the story. To him this is unacceptable in his $60K lux-whatever.

To the rest of us it is just a normal noise that many cars make in the course of daily driving. I wonder if that was counted against that brand as quality failure?

Might be entertaining to cruise the luxury brand car forums and see if buyers are complaining about thins like this.   

Saw this last night: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/02/2018-vehicle-dependability-survey/

"Issues pertaining to audio, communications, navigation, or entertainment systems continued to yield the highest number of complaints from consumers in 2018."

This is an initial quality survey naturally which makes it more useful to the advertising department but much less so to buyers.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Scandium on February 15, 2018, 07:52:27 AM
I know, I know. If stats show ACME motors to be a piece of crap but then I've owned one and it was good to me, so I'm gonna argue.

I'm only spending MY money so I guess it hurts nobody.

The stats don't usually call out what went wrong - just that SOMETHING went wrong. Was it the a/c ($1000) or the alternator ($100)? Was it a complete engine failure or the rear window wiper? Some of that stuff is easy to DIY on the cheap - even if a guy like me buys the OEM part from an online dealer. Some fo that stuff could be ignored forever too. Oh - a rear speaker went out? Is that a crisis? (I would just fix it).

I have owned one of the late 90s VWs which the stats and the internet says are absolute crap. If I relied solely on dealer service it would cost me a blooming fortune to operate. In reality I know that if the ignition switch goes out again - a known weak spot - that I can repair it in 30 minutes with a $12 part from NAPA. The stats won't detail that though. I had a cracked coil which took 10 minutes to repair and $30 for the part. A wheel bearing failed and cost $35 for the part I think and an hour to install it in the driveway. What never broke was the driveline, the chassis, the suspension, the windows, the heater, etc. It was all dinky shit that VW should have made a better effort on.

My eldest teenager has a dinky Asian car that supposedly ought to go straight to the crusher at the five year mark and its approaching 18 years old and still delivering reliable miles. We might spend $100 a year on it plus oil changes. It scored low on the long term quality stats too back then.


You're in luck, as dashboard-light is just based on powertrain issues, not broken wipers! So you can all stop yammering on about this.
http://www.dashboard-light.com/faq.html#qir
"The Quality Index Rating(QIR) offers an overall score based on the frequency of powertrain issues, the mileage distribution of when those issues take place, and vehicle age at the time of trade-in. "
"Powertrain issues are defects that exist with either the engine or transmission. These defects are severe enough to impact the operation of the vehicle."

So when they say a vehicle has high rate of failure, it's really quite severe issues, not the minor things you mention. And even so, if the choice is between having a car that has lots of issues (even if I can fix them cheaply) or not as many, I'll take the latter! It's annoying and a waste of my time to deal with even minor stuff on a car. That's not stuff I want in my life. Especially now that US cars aren't really that much cheaper than Asian ones.

They even break out percentage of issues with power train, transmission, and engines
(http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Resources/Images/Ford/Focus/Layout.png?v=4)
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on February 15, 2018, 07:54:22 AM
Thank you for that. I'll start digging my way through the data later.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: jinga nation on February 15, 2018, 11:17:57 AM
http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_RAV4.html

Insufficient data for the 2013-2019 RAV4. Does that mean a very small number dash lights reported, less than some threshold number?

Or are RAV4 just so reliable?
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: RWD on February 15, 2018, 11:30:57 AM
http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_RAV4.html

Insufficient data for the 2013-2019 RAV4. Does that mean a very small number dash lights reported, less than some threshold number?

Or are RAV4 just so reliable?

Not enough newer ones traded in yet.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: ketchup on February 15, 2018, 11:54:52 AM
Well, this is fun:

http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Volvo_V70.html

My 2001 scores me a 0.3 (out of 100) for reliability. :D

There is a well-documented widely-frustrating powertrain issue with that year/generation: the TPS in the electronic throttle module wears out sometime between 100,000 and 150,000 leading to all kinds of buffoonery (uneven idle, loss of power, stalling, etc.).  Volvo will replace it with a new one for $1000 that will just wear out again in the same way.  Luckily aftermarket ones with the problem fixed are also available (and cheaper).  I replaced mine at 146,xxx and it was kind of a pain in the ass, but it's also the only major issue I've ever had with the car, and it was at least kind of enough to be symptomatic before it was undrivable.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: JLee on February 15, 2018, 02:19:46 PM
I know, I know. If stats show ACME motors to be a piece of crap but then I've owned one and it was good to me, so I'm gonna argue.

I'm only spending MY money so I guess it hurts nobody.

The stats don't usually call out what went wrong - just that SOMETHING went wrong. Was it the a/c ($1000) or the alternator ($100)? Was it a complete engine failure or the rear window wiper? Some of that stuff is easy to DIY on the cheap - even if a guy like me buys the OEM part from an online dealer. Some fo that stuff could be ignored forever too. Oh - a rear speaker went out? Is that a crisis? (I would just fix it).

I have owned one of the late 90s VWs which the stats and the internet says are absolute crap. If I relied solely on dealer service it would cost me a blooming fortune to operate. In reality I know that if the ignition switch goes out again - a known weak spot - that I can repair it in 30 minutes with a $12 part from NAPA. The stats won't detail that though. I had a cracked coil which took 10 minutes to repair and $30 for the part. A wheel bearing failed and cost $35 for the part I think and an hour to install it in the driveway. What never broke was the driveline, the chassis, the suspension, the windows, the heater, etc. It was all dinky shit that VW should have made a better effort on.

My eldest teenager has a dinky Asian car that supposedly ought to go straight to the crusher at the five year mark and its approaching 18 years old and still delivering reliable miles. We might spend $100 a year on it plus oil changes. It scored low on the long term quality stats too back then.


You're in luck, as dashboard-light is just based on powertrain issues, not broken wipers! So you can all stop yammering on about this.
http://www.dashboard-light.com/faq.html#qir
"The Quality Index Rating(QIR) offers an overall score based on the frequency of powertrain issues, the mileage distribution of when those issues take place, and vehicle age at the time of trade-in. "
"Powertrain issues are defects that exist with either the engine or transmission. These defects are severe enough to impact the operation of the vehicle."

So when they say a vehicle has high rate of failure, it's really quite severe issues, not the minor things you mention. And even so, if the choice is between having a car that has lots of issues (even if I can fix them cheaply) or not as many, I'll take the latter! It's annoying and a waste of my time to deal with even minor stuff on a car. That's not stuff I want in my life. Especially now that US cars aren't really that much cheaper than Asian ones.

They even break out percentage of issues with power train, transmission, and engines
(http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Resources/Images/Ford/Focus/Layout.png?v=4)

Ah nice, I didn't know that their LQTI was just powertrain.   My vehicle scores a flat 100.  Good choice, past JLee!
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: a1pharm on February 15, 2018, 04:02:14 PM
The fact that there's nothing on the horizon that suggests fuel prices are likely to rise anytime soon is immaterial; rise they will, and an embarrassing number of drivers and businesses will be astonished at the fact.

This is false: OPEC and Russia have been limiting production for some time now, and they have agreed to maintain these production cuts through the end of 2018.  They had massive surpluses that have been hard to get rid of (these surpluses came into existence when the US was fracking in earnest, and the domestic demand for foreign oil dropped precipitiously). 

We have already seen a bit of what's to come soon: gas prices usually trend down after labor day - but they didn't (they went up slightly).

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-opec-meeting/opec-russia-agree-oil-cut-extension-to-end-of-2018-idUSKBN1DU0WW

Come summer 2018, we'll begin to see some sharp increases in gas prices.

Geez, didn't this happen 10 years ago?  I forgot what happened immediately after...

Investors looking for some risk may want to either buy up some oil stocks or energy ETFs.  If you are looking for less risk, rebalancing your 401k to include more bonds may be useful (so you can rebalance again after the market crash to get some sweet sales on stocks).

Or I might be completely wrong: maybe a drastic cut in production and supply WON'T lead to price increases.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: GuitarStv on February 15, 2018, 05:56:14 PM
Weird that Putin did all that work to get Trump elected only to cause a spike in gas prices that will probably cause his political capital and popularity to drop even more significantly.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Purple Economist on February 15, 2018, 09:00:58 PM
The fact that there's nothing on the horizon that suggests fuel prices are likely to rise anytime soon is immaterial; rise they will, and an embarrassing number of drivers and businesses will be astonished at the fact.

This is false: OPEC and Russia have been limiting production for some time now, and they have agreed to maintain these production cuts through the end of 2018.  They had massive surpluses that have been hard to get rid of (these surpluses came into existence when the US was fracking in earnest, and the domestic demand for foreign oil dropped precipitiously). 

We have already seen a bit of what's to come soon: gas prices usually trend down after labor day - but they didn't (they went up slightly).

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-opec-meeting/opec-russia-agree-oil-cut-extension-to-end-of-2018-idUSKBN1DU0WW

Come summer 2018, we'll begin to see some sharp increases in gas prices.

Geez, didn't this happen 10 years ago?  I forgot what happened immediately after...

Investors looking for some risk may want to either buy up some oil stocks or energy ETFs.  If you are looking for less risk, rebalancing your 401k to include more bonds may be useful (so you can rebalance again after the market crash to get some sweet sales on stocks).

Or I might be completely wrong: maybe a drastic cut in production and supply WON'T lead to price increases.

Those cuts are already factored into oil prices.  Plus, the US and other countries will respond to the higher prices by increasing production and moderating any further price increases.  OPEC controls a much smaller share of the market than they used to.

Or I might be completely wrong: maybe a drastic increase in production and supply WON'T lead to price decreases.

Source (from two days ago, not three months ago): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iea-oil/surge-in-global-oil-supply-may-overtake-demand-in-2018-iea-idUSKBN1FX0VQ (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iea-oil/surge-in-global-oil-supply-may-overtake-demand-in-2018-iea-idUSKBN1FX0VQ)
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: a1pharm on February 16, 2018, 06:22:18 AM
The fact that there's nothing on the horizon that suggests fuel prices are likely to rise anytime soon is immaterial; rise they will, and an embarrassing number of drivers and businesses will be astonished at the fact.

This is false: OPEC and Russia have been limiting production for some time now, and they have agreed to maintain these production cuts through the end of 2018.  They had massive surpluses that have been hard to get rid of (these surpluses came into existence when the US was fracking in earnest, and the domestic demand for foreign oil dropped precipitiously). 

We have already seen a bit of what's to come soon: gas prices usually trend down after labor day - but they didn't (they went up slightly).

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-opec-meeting/opec-russia-agree-oil-cut-extension-to-end-of-2018-idUSKBN1DU0WW

Come summer 2018, we'll begin to see some sharp increases in gas prices.

Geez, didn't this happen 10 years ago?  I forgot what happened immediately after...

Investors looking for some risk may want to either buy up some oil stocks or energy ETFs.  If you are looking for less risk, rebalancing your 401k to include more bonds may be useful (so you can rebalance again after the market crash to get some sweet sales on stocks).

Or I might be completely wrong: maybe a drastic cut in production and supply WON'T lead to price increases.

Those cuts are already factored into oil prices.  Plus, the US and other countries will respond to the higher prices by increasing production and moderating any further price increases.  OPEC controls a much smaller share of the market than they used to.

Or I might be completely wrong: maybe a drastic increase in production and supply WON'T lead to price decreases.

Source (from two days ago, not three months ago): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iea-oil/surge-in-global-oil-supply-may-overtake-demand-in-2018-iea-idUSKBN1FX0VQ (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iea-oil/surge-in-global-oil-supply-may-overtake-demand-in-2018-iea-idUSKBN1FX0VQ)

Wow, so per that article, only the US is increasing production and ALL OTHER COUNTRIES are reducing production.  Looks like overall supply is going down, despite one producer increasing production.  It's easy to forget that other countries exist in the equation.
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: SciLearner357 on February 16, 2018, 06:39:50 AM
Buyers are choosing luxury trucks instead of cars.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/automobiles/wheels/luxury-trucks-suv.html
Title: Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
Post by: Just Joe on February 16, 2018, 09:38:42 AM
Here we go again... (economic rollercoaster)