Author Topic: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs  (Read 5746 times)

Clean Shaven

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2018, 11:54:13 AM »
Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Just curious:  what do you drive?

As to German "quality engineering" and the like -- I give you this article from Jalopnik today, regarding the VW Toureg V10 TDI. 
https://jalopnik.com/the-volkswagen-touareg-v10-tdi-was-more-of-a-nightmare-1822934503

Scandium

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2018, 11:57:35 AM »
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Bet you haven't owned a Crown Vic, easy to fix. Get a used one with P71. That thing will keep on rolling.

What British marques? There's ain't none unless it's a McLaren. JLR is owned by the Indians, Mini by ze Germans, same goes for RR and Bentley, Rover's owned by China. Vauxhall was owned by Americans, now it's French.

BTW, my 2006 Honda Accord and Civic were built in USA, with over 70% of content domestic. So is my car American or Japanese? Same for the US-designed and built VW Passat, which is different from the German/International model.

In an era of globalization, is calling a vehicle American, Asian, or European an exercise in futility?

In East Africa, sales of new/used small & large SUVs are increasing while sedan sales are in reverse. So it isn't an American thing only.

By "American" I mean the Detroit companies. It's not so much about factory location, but about company focus and priorities. Asian companies prioritized reliability and price, German's focused on precise engineering, and US manufacturers on ... huge cars? Ads with horses in them?

Same with british ones. Yes they're owned by foreign firms now, but the culture remains. Volvo is owned by chineese firm, but still focus on safety.

Scandium

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2018, 12:05:07 PM »
Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Just curious:  what do you drive?

As to German "quality engineering" and the like -- I give you this article from Jalopnik today, regarding the VW Toureg V10 TDI. 
https://jalopnik.com/the-volkswagen-touareg-v10-tdi-was-more-of-a-nightmare-1822934503

We have a Prius and Subaru. 5/9 years old. They're ok. Been some repairs on the subaru, but usually cheap. Had a VW golf, was a repair PIA. Same with a volvo. Going all asian car from now on.

Didn't mean that I'm particularly fond of German cars. My parents had Audis for a while and were quite the hassle, and very expensive to fix. I'd never pay that kind of money for one. German engineering is good, but often too finicky for its own good. Stuff can break quite easily and is a pain to repair. Probably more reliable than US cars (not saying much), but more complex so cost more to fix. Like choosing plague or cholera IMO.

spartana

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2018, 12:15:48 PM »
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Bet you haven't owned a Crown Vic, easy to fix. Get a used one with P71. That thing will keep on rolling.

What British marques? There's ain't none unless it's a McLaren. JLR is owned by the Indians, Mini by ze Germans, same goes for RR and Bentley, Rover's owned by China. Vauxhall was owned by Americans, now it's French.

BTW, my 2006 Honda Accord and Civic were built in USA, with over 70% of content domestic. So is my car American or Japanese? Same for the US-designed and built VW Passat, which is different from the German/International model.

In an era of globalization, is calling a vehicle American, Asian, or European an exercise in futility?

In East Africa, sales of new/used small & large SUVs are increasing while sedan sales are in reverse. So it isn't an American thing only.

By "American" I mean the Detroit companies. It's not so much about factory location, but about company focus and priorities. Asian companies prioritized reliability and price, German's focused on precise engineering, and US manufacturers on ... huge cars? Ads with horses in them?

Same with british ones. Yes they're owned by foreign firms now, but the culture remains. Volvo is owned by chineese firm, but still focus on safety.
Ford Fiesta and Focus (sedans and hatchbacks). Chevy Spark, Sonic (sedan and hatchback),  Cruze, Volt. Dodge Dar. Buick Veranzo. Etc...  There ate small american cars that are hugely popular. I've had a couple of Fords (Focus and Rangers) all did well with no problems even when around 150k plus miles. I doubt american manufactures will drop their small cars which are popular in places like Calif which has high gas prices (currently around $3.50 for reg and close to $4 for premium).
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 12:17:42 PM by spartana »
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Scandium

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2018, 12:24:09 PM »
Ford Fiesta and Focus (sedans and hatchbacks). Chevy Spark, Sonic (sedan and hatchback),  Cruze, Volt. Dodge Dar. Buick Veranzo. Etc...  There ate small american cars that are hugely popular. I've had a couple of Fords (Focus and Rangers) all did well with no problems even when around 150k plus miles. I doubt american manufactures will drop their small cars which are popular in places like Calif which has high gas prices (currently around $3.50 for reg and close to $4 for premium).

Well, it's only slightly below average, not bad for detroit..
http://dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Ford_Focus.html

Ford in general not looking so hot at 39 out of 100.
http://dashboard-light.com/reports/Ford.html
Chevy is a 46, right behind Saab

And yes I know they made small cars, but their bread and butter was always massive boats. And that seemed to be the thing they could offer; more opulent and ridiculous cars than the others. I did drive a 1985 chevy van a short while, with giant cushy upholstered sofas for seats. Was hilarious.

Prairie Stash

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2018, 12:26:34 PM »
"Cars that probably won’t survive are large sedans like Ford’s Taurus and its competitors,"
"GM is weighing the fate of increasingly irrelevant Buicks, Chevys and Cadillac cars,"
"Fiat Chrysler may not be done, with models like the big Chrysler 300 sedan—once the preferred ride of rap stars—now looking vulnerable."

It looks like they're killing off large sedans with poor gas mileage, to be replaced by mid sized cars.

lan Batey, president of GM’s North American business.
“You’ve got to look at compact cars and mid-size cars still being very large volume,” Batey said in an interview.

But what will Rap stars drive? That's the real question here.

zoltani

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2018, 01:04:53 PM »
"Cars that probably won’t survive are large sedans like Ford’s Taurus and its competitors,"
"GM is weighing the fate of increasingly irrelevant Buicks, Chevys and Cadillac cars,"
"Fiat Chrysler may not be done, with models like the big Chrysler 300 sedan—once the preferred ride of rap stars—now looking vulnerable."

It looks like they're killing off large sedans with poor gas mileage, to be replaced by mid sized cars.

lan Batey, president of GM’s North American business.
“You’ve got to look at compact cars and mid-size cars still being very large volume,” Batey said in an interview.

But what will Rap stars drive? That's the real question here.

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GuitarStv

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2018, 01:11:28 PM »
I'm hoping that blingin road bikes will be adopted as the new status symbols.  The world needs more Pinarello Dogma F10s on the used market.

Clean Shaven

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2018, 01:14:24 PM »

We have a Prius and Subaru. 5/9 years old. They're ok. Been some repairs on the subaru, but usually cheap. Had a VW golf, was a repair PIA. Same with a volvo. Going all asian car from now on.

I'm with you on the Japanese/Korean cars for my own personal choices.  From a reliability standpoint, can't beat them.  OTOH, I don't think American brands are that much behind in passenger car reliability.  While I would not pick a new Malibu over an Accord, I don't think it would be a bad choice at all as a 3 year old used option, and cheaper (more heavily depreciated) than the Japanese competitors.

GuitarStv

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2018, 01:20:05 PM »
I don't think American brands are that much behind in passenger car reliability.

Eh . . .




It seems that American cars when they're bad, are pretty bad.  When they're good, they're about on par with the bad Japanese cars.

Except Buicks . . . which apparently rock.

Clean Shaven

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2018, 01:28:53 PM »
What's that chart actually rating?  Why are brands that are basically the same so far apart?  Audi/VW, Nissan/Infiniti, Buick/GM/Chevrolet, Honda/Acura? 

From my own personal biases, any kind of quality ranking that lists Audi as near the top is automatically highly suspect. 

RWD

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2018, 01:43:07 PM »
Except Buicks . . . which apparently rock.

Aren't Buicks mostly rebadged Opels these days?

Scandium

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2018, 01:44:32 PM »
What's that chart actually rating?  Why are brands that are basically the same so far apart?  Audi/VW, Nissan/Infiniti, Buick/GM/Chevrolet, Honda/Acura? 

From my own personal biases, any kind of quality ranking that lists Audi as near the top is automatically highly suspect.

that's why I use long term quality index.
http://www.dashboard-light.com/
Still puts US brands around average or below.

GuitarStv

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ketchup

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2018, 01:51:43 PM »
Except Buicks . . . which apparently rock.
Had a 1992 Buick that died in 2016 at 200,775.  Giant old thing with shitty gas mileage but it was reliable as hell and very cheap to maintain apart from all the gas.  I'll vouch for Buick.

TheWifeHalf

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2018, 02:29:31 PM »
If this kind of question is not alowed here, just ignore but:

My Dad's been dead 19 years now, so when TheHusbandHalf and I went to the local car show last weekend, he actually made a point to look at the Honda Pilot. (Dad was a Ford guy, since his Crown Vic days - 1956!) Our son has had Hondas for 15 years with out any problems, so we looked.
Does anyone here have experience owning one, good or bad? I was just so shocked he wanted to look at them.

jinga nation

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2018, 02:40:49 PM »
I'm hoping that blingin road bikes will be adopted as the new status symbols.  The world needs more Pinarello Dogma F10s on the used market.
Oh git off yer saddle mate!
Rather a Bianchi modelo Jan Ullrich. Juiced and ready to go!

How about something more "American" like Trek or Specialized? Or Cervelo and Cannondale for you Canadians?

But +1 to pimp your bicicleta!
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Just Joe

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2018, 03:19:19 PM »
If this kind of question is not alowed here, just ignore but:

My Dad's been dead 19 years now, so when TheHusbandHalf and I went to the local car show last weekend, he actually made a point to look at the Honda Pilot. (Dad was a Ford guy, since his Crown Vic days - 1956!) Our son has had Hondas for 15 years with out any problems, so we looked.
Does anyone here have experience owning one, good or bad? I was just so shocked he wanted to look at them.

I'll let you know what I think in another 50K miles. Like the Pilot? Look at a used Acura MDX too. Same beast of burden with some polish. I've owned alot of Hondas - cars, SUVs, motorcycles, generators, and lawnmowers. Mostly have only needed maintenance.

JLee

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2018, 05:32:37 PM »
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Have you driven an American car in the last 10 years?

Scandium

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2018, 05:47:17 PM »
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Have you driven an American car in the last 10 years?
Couple rentals. But that's irrelevant. I'm not taking about anecdotal stories of how great /terrible one person's car is. I'm looking at statistic on reliability and repairs. And as shown above it still doesn't look good for US brands

JLee

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2018, 06:03:40 PM »
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Have you driven an American car in the last 10 years?
Couple rentals. But that's irrelevant. I'm not taking about anecdotal stories of how great /terrible one person's car is. I'm looking at statistic on reliability and repairs. And as shown above it still doesn't look good for US brands

I was more referring to the "size of a small apartment" comment.  You appear to be stuck in the 70's.

Scandium

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2018, 10:33:50 PM »
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Have you driven an American car in the last 10 years?
Couple rentals. But that's irrelevant. I'm not taking about anecdotal stories of how great /terrible one person's car is. I'm looking at statistic on reliability and repairs. And as shown above it still doesn't look good for US brands

I was more referring to the "size of a small apartment" comment.  You appear to be stuck in the 70's.
Well yeah, that used to be their one selling point. Now they (also) make small cars like the Asian companies. Except way shittier.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2018, 11:52:00 PM »
It's not just American brands...or in the US.

Here Nissan don't sell anything (aside from the 370Z and GT-R) that isn't an SUV or a pickup truck. Mitsubishi only sell the Mirage and the decade-old Lancer in a sea of SUVs. An awful lot of the car marketing is for SUVs and 'Super Size Me' pickup trucks.

I suspect that the car makers are focusing all of their marketing efforts on the more profitable vehicles, and letting their smaller car lineup to wither on the vine.

FWIW, I rented a Chevy Sonic in the US a couple of years ago and it was fine. I doubt that all American cars are that bad.

Recently found out, via Pistonheads' Gassing Forums, that there's a whole sub-industry devoted to converting muscle cars to right-hand drive for UK use. Plus for the last couple of years the Wheeler Dealers show has gone from purchasing and fixing reliable cars to buying "Yank tanks" and American muscle and importing to UK.

Meanwhile, my in-laws purchased two gently used SUVs in the UK and had them exported to East Africa.

I have been informed this helps keep the total vehicle ground weight constant in the UK and prevents the Isles from sinking.

There's been a big market here in Aus for years to import and convert American cars and trucks. There's a few here that are prepared to pay twice the price of a Hilux or Ranger for an imported/converted F series or RAM.

Also, the article talks about GM/Ford/Chrysler killing all of their passenger cars. Maybe in the US, but I doubt it'll happen in all markets. They'll still keep cars like the Focus around for Europe.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 11:54:00 PM by alsoknownasDean »

libertarian4321

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2018, 02:49:12 AM »
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Did you write this in 1987 (when it was actually true)?

When we were going to make a TX to NY trip last fall, my wife insisted that we take her BMW (50k miles on it), because it's "reliable" rather than my old Chevy truck.

Of course, the BMW conked out just outside Louisville, KY.  A complete fail on it's first long distance trip.  Fast forward a couple of days and a $4,000 in repair costs (plus hotel costs) and we were merrily on our way. 

That darned BMW is so over engineered/overly complex/sensitive that it's almost as if it's designed to fail in anything more rugged than a daily commute to work.

I've made that same trip at least a dozen times in my 2002 Chevy Silverado.  I'm 99.9% sure I could hop in it right now and drive straight through, stopping for nothing but gas, food, and restrooms, and it would run like a champ.  I'd bet my next paycheck on it.

BTW, my wife's previous car, an Acura, wasn't all that reliable either (though not as expensive to repair).

She also, of course, believes the "American vehicles suck" myth.  But I think she believes it a bit less every time she has to shell out big money to fix her fancy German and Japanese luxury vehicles, while my ugly old Chevy truck keeps on truckin'.



Scandium

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2018, 04:50:01 AM »
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Did you write this in 1987 (when it was actually true)?

When we were going to make a TX to NY trip last fall, my wife insisted that we take her BMW (50k miles on it), because it's "reliable" rather than my old Chevy truck.

Of course, the BMW conked out just outside Louisville, KY.  A complete fail on it's first long distance trip.  Fast forward a couple of days and a $4,000 in repair costs (plus hotel costs) and we were merrily on our way. 

That darned BMW is so over engineered/overly complex/sensitive that it's almost as if it's designed to fail in anything more rugged than a daily commute to work.

I've made that same trip at least a dozen times in my 2002 Chevy Silverado.  I'm 99.9% sure I could hop in it right now and drive straight through, stopping for nothing but gas, food, and restrooms, and it would run like a champ.  I'd bet my next paycheck on it.

BTW, my wife's previous car, an Acura, wasn't all that reliable either (though not as expensive to repair).

She also, of course, believes the "American vehicles suck" myth.  But I think she believes it a bit less every time she has to shell out big money to fix her fancy German and Japanese luxury vehicles, while my ugly old Chevy truck keeps on truckin'.
Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. This isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I have no emotional investment in the brand of my car, or against others. Cars these days all get you from A to B the same way. I don't give a crap about what I drive, I don't care about horse power or features (beyond a certain point), I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American. (unless they made something nobody else made i guess)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 04:51:49 AM by Scandium »

Clean Shaven

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2018, 06:55:06 AM »


Quote

Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. This isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American.

Re: statistics - the two charts posted above actually contradict each other. One has Kia and Mazda at the top of the ratings, the other is opposite.

RWD

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2018, 07:41:48 AM »
Quote

Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. This isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American.

Re: statistics - the two charts posted above actually contradict each other. One has Kia and Mazda at the top of the ratings, the other is opposite.

They don't contradict each other because they are measuring different things and the data sets are different.

The Consumer Reports chart is predicted reliability based on customer surveys on vehicles that are less than three years old. It also includes non-critical problems like squeaks/rattles, failing accessories, poorly working infotainment systems, etc. which can partly explain why luxury brands (e.g. Acura/Infiniti) are often worse than their normal (e.g. Honda/Nissan) counterparts (more features that can fail/break).

The Dashboard Light scores come from a much larger range of model years (over two decades) and I believe focuses primarily (or maybe exclusively) on powertrain issues.

If you want yet another data point you can look at TrueDelta which is entirely user reported.

Just Joe

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2018, 09:56:49 AM »
Quote
Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. But this isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I have no emotional investment in the brand of my car, or against others. Cars these days all get you from A to B the same way. I don't give a crap about what I drive, I don't care about horse power or features (beyond a certain point), I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American. (unless they made something nobody else made i guess)

So how are these stats collected? Customers range from hyper-sensitive to oblivious. That might even come with a sense or lack of expectations based on the purchase price of the vehicle.

Same for the dealers that might be reporting some of these stats. Some are honest and some are not. They both exist in great quantity.

And then I have my own variable to add to the equation: 40 yrs of DIY repairs and a career as an engineer.

My point is that a great number of people I know own and operate American vehicles without any drama for very long periods of time. I can't accept those stats blindly.

Edit: fixed the quoting. And it still looks broken.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 12:23:22 PM by Just Joe »

Scandium

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2018, 10:40:52 AM »
Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. This isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I have no emotional investment in the brand of my car, or against others. Cars these days all get you from A to B the same way. I don't give a crap about what I drive, I don't care about horse power or features (beyond a certain point), I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American. (unless they made something nobody else made i guess)
Quote

So how are these stats collected? Customers range from hyper-sensitive to oblivious. That might even come with a sense or lack of expectations based on the purchase price of the vehicle.

Same for the dealers that might be reporting some of these stats. Some are honest and some are not. They both exist in great quantity.

And then I have my own variable to add to the equation: 40 yrs of DIY repairs and a career as an engineer.

My point is that a great number of people I know own and operate American vehicles without any drama for very long periods of time. I can't accept those stats blindly.

So in summary; you don't accept statistics "blindly" (whatever that means?). Stats from 500,000 or more car repairs gathered over decades. You lean more towards data from the cars you've come in contact with, and can remember. Accounting for recency bias, belief reinforcement etc? And stories from "great number of people"?
You do that, I'll stick with the stats.

Just Joe

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2018, 12:37:13 PM »
I know, I know. If stats show ACME motors to be a piece of crap but then I've owned one and it was good to me, so I'm gonna argue.

I'm only spending MY money so I guess it hurts nobody.

The stats don't usually call out what went wrong - just that SOMETHING went wrong. Was it the a/c ($1000) or the alternator ($100)? Was it a complete engine failure or the rear window wiper? Some of that stuff is easy to DIY on the cheap - even if a guy like me buys the OEM part from an online dealer. Some fo that stuff could be ignored forever too. Oh - a rear speaker went out? Is that a crisis? (I would just fix it).

I have owned one of the late 90s VWs which the stats and the internet says are absolute crap. If I relied solely on dealer service it would cost me a blooming fortune to operate. In reality I know that if the ignition switch goes out again - a known weak spot - that I can repair it in 30 minutes with a $12 part from NAPA. The stats won't detail that though. I had a cracked coil which took 10 minutes to repair and $30 for the part. A wheel bearing failed and cost $35 for the part I think and an hour to install it in the driveway. What never broke was the driveline, the chassis, the suspension, the windows, the heater, etc. It was all dinky shit that VW should have made a better effort on.

My eldest teenager has a dinky Asian car that supposedly ought to go straight to the crusher at the five year mark and its approaching 18 years old and still delivering reliable miles. We might spend $100 a year on it plus oil changes. It scored low on the long term quality stats too back then.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2018, 02:58:19 PM »
If you own an American car from 2005 or later, then don't worry about it. The difference in reliability between American and Japanese makes has become negligible. Now you basically buy the Japanese makes for better resale because American makes sell more to fleets. But the upside of that is the fact that you can usually buy a used American car for much less. If you want a reliable car that you plan to keep forever until the wheels fall off -- as Mustachians tend to do -- then a recent American make is a good idea so you can save some cash. The exception to this rule is anything ever made by Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep. Their vehicles have always been and continue to be absolute trash.

jinga nation

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2018, 03:52:38 PM »
If you own an American car from 2005 or later, then don't worry about it. The difference in reliability between American and Japanese makes has become negligible. Now you basically buy the Japanese makes for better resale because American makes sell more to fleets. But the upside of that is the fact that you can usually buy a used American car for much less. If you want a reliable car that you plan to keep forever until the wheels fall off -- as Mustachians tend to do -- then a recent American make is a good idea so you can save some cash. The exception to this rule is anything ever made by Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep. Their vehicles have always been and continue to be absolute trash.
Good points.
But just an anecdotal point: went to Northern Virginia for a work trip last 2 days. All the cars at Hertz at IAD for mid-size were Hyundai Sonata and Nissan Altima. A lot of Nissan Rogue and Sentra, Hyundai SUVs and Elantra too. So you can say that rental fleets are becoming more Asian vehicles, at least at Hertz. I think I saw only one Chevy Impala, a couple of Kia Optima, one Mazda 3 sedan, and the luxury collection was mainly Infiniti with a couple of MB.
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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2018, 05:29:22 PM »
If you own an American car from 2005 or later, then don't worry about it. The difference in reliability between American and Japanese makes has become negligible. Now you basically buy the Japanese makes for better resale because American makes sell more to fleets. But the upside of that is the fact that you can usually buy a used American car for much less. If you want a reliable car that you plan to keep forever until the wheels fall off -- as Mustachians tend to do -- then a recent American make is a good idea so you can save some cash. The exception to this rule is anything ever made by Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep. Their vehicles have always been and continue to be absolute trash.
Good points.
But just an anecdotal point: went to Northern Virginia for a work trip last 2 days. All the cars at Hertz at IAD for mid-size were Hyundai Sonata and Nissan Altima. A lot of Nissan Rogue and Sentra, Hyundai SUVs and Elantra too. So you can say that rental fleets are becoming more Asian vehicles, at least at Hertz. I think I saw only one Chevy Impala, a couple of Kia Optima, one Mazda 3 sedan, and the luxury collection was mainly Infiniti with a couple of MB.

Nissans were the most common rental cars in 2017:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/12/dont-gentle-rental-nissan-boosts-u-s-sales-numbers-flooding-americas-fleets/

aboatguy

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2018, 07:12:31 AM »
I have to wonder if car makers are going TOO deep on EVs. Some folks are still going to want a gasoline powered vehicle - either for trips or just because.

just b/c you want it doesnt mean you will get it - or it will cost you a very high price to obtain and you wont have anywere to put your fuel in it.

There will always be fuel for internal combustion engines.   During WWII  folks in occupied europe built gassifiers to run their vehicles with wood.



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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2018, 07:37:21 AM »
Why would anyone buy American cars anyway? Outside the US, for as longs as I can remember "american cars" was a joke and just synonymous with poorly engineered, janky and horrendously unreliable pieces of junk. Also comically huge and drive like a boats. When Asian cars are cheaper and more reliable I don't see any reason to buy american, I don't understand it

American cars in europe come in different smaller models, typically. Ford is actually the #2 brand in europe..

In Europe, apparently VW is considered quite reliable. In the US, it's the opposite. (Your opinion may vary.)

Some of it is familiarity with the cars or parts. Anywhere you go in the US, you'll find somebody who can fix a Chevy. If you drive a Saab or something even less common, good luck.

Except VW was using cheat devices in their cars in europe as well as the US. Other european car manufacturers were also using cheat devices for their diesels. That's why americans scratched their heads for so long wondering how diesel in europe was "cleaner" than the US. If you've spent any time in large cities in europe you will smell the diesel and if you bike around a lot it will affect your lungs. They say approximately 5000 people a year die prematurely from diesel related pollution in europe. I think those european manufacturers have lost the trust of the public.

Yes, Euopean cars are well-engineered, reasonably reliable, but expensive to buy and repair. Well, really German cars. French cars are cheap junk, as are italian ones. And British ones have always been known the be expensive, and reliability nightmares.

This doesn't change the fact that American cars are just crap. Barely cheaper than Asian ones, but terrible reliability, and shoddily engineered. Yes you can find someone to fix it, which is good I guess since you'll have to go there all the time.. I'd rather just not have to fix my car. You get none of the tight tolerance engineering of European cars, but the same bad reliability and repair issues, yey? Why? Just because they're cheap I guess? But these days that isn't even true anymore. Unless I really needed a car the size of a small apartment I wouldn't drive a Detroit car if I got it for free.

Did you write this in 1987 (when it was actually true)?

When we were going to make a TX to NY trip last fall, my wife insisted that we take her BMW (50k miles on it), because it's "reliable" rather than my old Chevy truck.

Of course, the BMW conked out just outside Louisville, KY.  A complete fail on it's first long distance trip.  Fast forward a couple of days and a $4,000 in repair costs (plus hotel costs) and we were merrily on our way. 

That darned BMW is so over engineered/overly complex/sensitive that it's almost as if it's designed to fail in anything more rugged than a daily commute to work.

I've made that same trip at least a dozen times in my 2002 Chevy Silverado.  I'm 99.9% sure I could hop in it right now and drive straight through, stopping for nothing but gas, food, and restrooms, and it would run like a champ.  I'd bet my next paycheck on it.

BTW, my wife's previous car, an Acura, wasn't all that reliable either (though not as expensive to repair).

She also, of course, believes the "American vehicles suck" myth.  But I think she believes it a bit less every time she has to shell out big money to fix her fancy German and Japanese luxury vehicles, while my ugly old Chevy truck keeps on truckin'.
Believe anecdotes all you want, but there are several links posted above showing the poor reliability of American cars. BMW is pretty bad too by the way, the mini Cooper is one of the worst one is I remember correctly. This isn't really a point of argument, it's just statistics. Data from 100,000+ cars, not two cars on one drive to Texas, lol.

I have no emotional investment in the brand of my car, or against others. Cars these days all get you from A to B the same way. I don't give a crap about what I drive, I don't care about horse power or features (beyond a certain point), I just want a reliable car for decent money. And I look at the statistics and draw conclusions, and see zero reason to buy anything American. (unless they made something nobody else made i guess)

"Reliability" is tricky to measure.  A "problem" could be "my electric seat motor didn't work so I had it repaired under warranty", and a "problem" could also be "my car died on the highway."  The charts won't tell you this.

Edit: I see many others have already talked about this in more detail. Oops!

Just Joe

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2018, 07:48:47 AM »
I ran across a fellow recently on the web that was complaining about a clicking noise coming from the front end of his expensive car. Turned it in for a warranty repair.

It was the brake pads clicking when he was maneuvering back and forth around a parking lot. The pads were just shifting in the calipers.

I knew exactly what it was when I read the story. To him this is unacceptable in his $60K lux-whatever.

To the rest of us it is just a normal noise that many cars make in the course of daily driving. I wonder if that was counted against that brand as quality failure?

Might be entertaining to cruise the luxury brand car forums and see if buyers are complaining about thins like this.   

Saw this last night: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/02/2018-vehicle-dependability-survey/

"Issues pertaining to audio, communications, navigation, or entertainment systems continued to yield the highest number of complaints from consumers in 2018."

This is an initial quality survey naturally which makes it more useful to the advertising department but much less so to buyers.

Scandium

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2018, 07:52:27 AM »
I know, I know. If stats show ACME motors to be a piece of crap but then I've owned one and it was good to me, so I'm gonna argue.

I'm only spending MY money so I guess it hurts nobody.

The stats don't usually call out what went wrong - just that SOMETHING went wrong. Was it the a/c ($1000) or the alternator ($100)? Was it a complete engine failure or the rear window wiper? Some of that stuff is easy to DIY on the cheap - even if a guy like me buys the OEM part from an online dealer. Some fo that stuff could be ignored forever too. Oh - a rear speaker went out? Is that a crisis? (I would just fix it).

I have owned one of the late 90s VWs which the stats and the internet says are absolute crap. If I relied solely on dealer service it would cost me a blooming fortune to operate. In reality I know that if the ignition switch goes out again - a known weak spot - that I can repair it in 30 minutes with a $12 part from NAPA. The stats won't detail that though. I had a cracked coil which took 10 minutes to repair and $30 for the part. A wheel bearing failed and cost $35 for the part I think and an hour to install it in the driveway. What never broke was the driveline, the chassis, the suspension, the windows, the heater, etc. It was all dinky shit that VW should have made a better effort on.

My eldest teenager has a dinky Asian car that supposedly ought to go straight to the crusher at the five year mark and its approaching 18 years old and still delivering reliable miles. We might spend $100 a year on it plus oil changes. It scored low on the long term quality stats too back then.


You're in luck, as dashboard-light is just based on powertrain issues, not broken wipers! So you can all stop yammering on about this.
http://www.dashboard-light.com/faq.html#qir
"The Quality Index Rating(QIR) offers an overall score based on the frequency of powertrain issues, the mileage distribution of when those issues take place, and vehicle age at the time of trade-in. "
"Powertrain issues are defects that exist with either the engine or transmission. These defects are severe enough to impact the operation of the vehicle."

So when they say a vehicle has high rate of failure, it's really quite severe issues, not the minor things you mention. And even so, if the choice is between having a car that has lots of issues (even if I can fix them cheaply) or not as many, I'll take the latter! It's annoying and a waste of my time to deal with even minor stuff on a car. That's not stuff I want in my life. Especially now that US cars aren't really that much cheaper than Asian ones.

They even break out percentage of issues with power train, transmission, and engines
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 07:54:18 AM by Scandium »

Just Joe

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2018, 07:54:22 AM »
Thank you for that. I'll start digging my way through the data later.

jinga nation

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2018, 11:17:57 AM »
http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_RAV4.html

Insufficient data for the 2013-2019 RAV4. Does that mean a very small number dash lights reported, less than some threshold number?

Or are RAV4 just so reliable?
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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2018, 11:30:57 AM »
http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_RAV4.html

Insufficient data for the 2013-2019 RAV4. Does that mean a very small number dash lights reported, less than some threshold number?

Or are RAV4 just so reliable?

Not enough newer ones traded in yet.

ketchup

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2018, 11:54:52 AM »
Well, this is fun:

http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Volvo_V70.html

My 2001 scores me a 0.3 (out of 100) for reliability. :D

There is a well-documented widely-frustrating powertrain issue with that year/generation: the TPS in the electronic throttle module wears out sometime between 100,000 and 150,000 leading to all kinds of buffoonery (uneven idle, loss of power, stalling, etc.).  Volvo will replace it with a new one for $1000 that will just wear out again in the same way.  Luckily aftermarket ones with the problem fixed are also available (and cheaper).  I replaced mine at 146,xxx and it was kind of a pain in the ass, but it's also the only major issue I've ever had with the car, and it was at least kind of enough to be symptomatic before it was undrivable.

JLee

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2018, 02:19:46 PM »
I know, I know. If stats show ACME motors to be a piece of crap but then I've owned one and it was good to me, so I'm gonna argue.

I'm only spending MY money so I guess it hurts nobody.

The stats don't usually call out what went wrong - just that SOMETHING went wrong. Was it the a/c ($1000) or the alternator ($100)? Was it a complete engine failure or the rear window wiper? Some of that stuff is easy to DIY on the cheap - even if a guy like me buys the OEM part from an online dealer. Some fo that stuff could be ignored forever too. Oh - a rear speaker went out? Is that a crisis? (I would just fix it).

I have owned one of the late 90s VWs which the stats and the internet says are absolute crap. If I relied solely on dealer service it would cost me a blooming fortune to operate. In reality I know that if the ignition switch goes out again - a known weak spot - that I can repair it in 30 minutes with a $12 part from NAPA. The stats won't detail that though. I had a cracked coil which took 10 minutes to repair and $30 for the part. A wheel bearing failed and cost $35 for the part I think and an hour to install it in the driveway. What never broke was the driveline, the chassis, the suspension, the windows, the heater, etc. It was all dinky shit that VW should have made a better effort on.

My eldest teenager has a dinky Asian car that supposedly ought to go straight to the crusher at the five year mark and its approaching 18 years old and still delivering reliable miles. We might spend $100 a year on it plus oil changes. It scored low on the long term quality stats too back then.


You're in luck, as dashboard-light is just based on powertrain issues, not broken wipers! So you can all stop yammering on about this.
http://www.dashboard-light.com/faq.html#qir
"The Quality Index Rating(QIR) offers an overall score based on the frequency of powertrain issues, the mileage distribution of when those issues take place, and vehicle age at the time of trade-in. "
"Powertrain issues are defects that exist with either the engine or transmission. These defects are severe enough to impact the operation of the vehicle."

So when they say a vehicle has high rate of failure, it's really quite severe issues, not the minor things you mention. And even so, if the choice is between having a car that has lots of issues (even if I can fix them cheaply) or not as many, I'll take the latter! It's annoying and a waste of my time to deal with even minor stuff on a car. That's not stuff I want in my life. Especially now that US cars aren't really that much cheaper than Asian ones.

They even break out percentage of issues with power train, transmission, and engines


Ah nice, I didn't know that their LQTI was just powertrain.   My vehicle scores a flat 100.  Good choice, past JLee!

a1pharm

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2018, 04:02:14 PM »
The fact that there's nothing on the horizon that suggests fuel prices are likely to rise anytime soon is immaterial; rise they will, and an embarrassing number of drivers and businesses will be astonished at the fact.

This is false: OPEC and Russia have been limiting production for some time now, and they have agreed to maintain these production cuts through the end of 2018.  They had massive surpluses that have been hard to get rid of (these surpluses came into existence when the US was fracking in earnest, and the domestic demand for foreign oil dropped precipitiously). 

We have already seen a bit of what's to come soon: gas prices usually trend down after labor day - but they didn't (they went up slightly).

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-opec-meeting/opec-russia-agree-oil-cut-extension-to-end-of-2018-idUSKBN1DU0WW

Come summer 2018, we'll begin to see some sharp increases in gas prices.

Geez, didn't this happen 10 years ago?  I forgot what happened immediately after...

Investors looking for some risk may want to either buy up some oil stocks or energy ETFs.  If you are looking for less risk, rebalancing your 401k to include more bonds may be useful (so you can rebalance again after the market crash to get some sweet sales on stocks).

Or I might be completely wrong: maybe a drastic cut in production and supply WON'T lead to price increases.

GuitarStv

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2018, 05:56:14 PM »
Weird that Putin did all that work to get Trump elected only to cause a spike in gas prices that will probably cause his political capital and popularity to drop even more significantly.

Purple Economist

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2018, 09:00:58 PM »
The fact that there's nothing on the horizon that suggests fuel prices are likely to rise anytime soon is immaterial; rise they will, and an embarrassing number of drivers and businesses will be astonished at the fact.

This is false: OPEC and Russia have been limiting production for some time now, and they have agreed to maintain these production cuts through the end of 2018.  They had massive surpluses that have been hard to get rid of (these surpluses came into existence when the US was fracking in earnest, and the domestic demand for foreign oil dropped precipitiously). 

We have already seen a bit of what's to come soon: gas prices usually trend down after labor day - but they didn't (they went up slightly).

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-opec-meeting/opec-russia-agree-oil-cut-extension-to-end-of-2018-idUSKBN1DU0WW

Come summer 2018, we'll begin to see some sharp increases in gas prices.

Geez, didn't this happen 10 years ago?  I forgot what happened immediately after...

Investors looking for some risk may want to either buy up some oil stocks or energy ETFs.  If you are looking for less risk, rebalancing your 401k to include more bonds may be useful (so you can rebalance again after the market crash to get some sweet sales on stocks).

Or I might be completely wrong: maybe a drastic cut in production and supply WON'T lead to price increases.

Those cuts are already factored into oil prices.  Plus, the US and other countries will respond to the higher prices by increasing production and moderating any further price increases.  OPEC controls a much smaller share of the market than they used to.

Or I might be completely wrong: maybe a drastic increase in production and supply WON'T lead to price decreases.

Source (from two days ago, not three months ago): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iea-oil/surge-in-global-oil-supply-may-overtake-demand-in-2018-iea-idUSKBN1FX0VQ

a1pharm

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2018, 06:22:18 AM »
The fact that there's nothing on the horizon that suggests fuel prices are likely to rise anytime soon is immaterial; rise they will, and an embarrassing number of drivers and businesses will be astonished at the fact.

This is false: OPEC and Russia have been limiting production for some time now, and they have agreed to maintain these production cuts through the end of 2018.  They had massive surpluses that have been hard to get rid of (these surpluses came into existence when the US was fracking in earnest, and the domestic demand for foreign oil dropped precipitiously). 

We have already seen a bit of what's to come soon: gas prices usually trend down after labor day - but they didn't (they went up slightly).

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-opec-meeting/opec-russia-agree-oil-cut-extension-to-end-of-2018-idUSKBN1DU0WW

Come summer 2018, we'll begin to see some sharp increases in gas prices.

Geez, didn't this happen 10 years ago?  I forgot what happened immediately after...

Investors looking for some risk may want to either buy up some oil stocks or energy ETFs.  If you are looking for less risk, rebalancing your 401k to include more bonds may be useful (so you can rebalance again after the market crash to get some sweet sales on stocks).

Or I might be completely wrong: maybe a drastic cut in production and supply WON'T lead to price increases.

Those cuts are already factored into oil prices.  Plus, the US and other countries will respond to the higher prices by increasing production and moderating any further price increases.  OPEC controls a much smaller share of the market than they used to.

Or I might be completely wrong: maybe a drastic increase in production and supply WON'T lead to price decreases.

Source (from two days ago, not three months ago): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iea-oil/surge-in-global-oil-supply-may-overtake-demand-in-2018-iea-idUSKBN1FX0VQ

Wow, so per that article, only the US is increasing production and ALL OTHER COUNTRIES are reducing production.  Looks like overall supply is going down, despite one producer increasing production.  It's easy to forget that other countries exist in the equation.

SciLearner357

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2018, 06:39:50 AM »
Buyers are choosing luxury trucks instead of cars.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/automobiles/wheels/luxury-trucks-suv.html

Just Joe

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Re: American car companies are dropping everything except SUVs
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2018, 09:38:42 AM »
Here we go again... (economic rollercoaster)