Author Topic: America's Junk Epidemic  (Read 6176 times)

Just Joe

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America's Junk Epidemic
« on: March 13, 2018, 12:48:55 PM »
http://theweek.com/articles/759271/americas-junk-epidemic

Perhaps it is the first step in collectively recognizing that America has a shopping problem?

I don't know that the article is pointing out anything unique or new.

Haven't we always had dime stores and drug stores to sell us a little something new for cheap?

Its interesting that the author brags about the clarity of a landline like nobody has used one for so long that they would need to be reminded.

Sibley

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2018, 01:23:00 PM »
Considering that if you're 25 or younger, there's a decent chance you've never spoken on a old style corded phone... yes, I'd say we could use a reminder.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2018, 01:25:51 PM »
Yes and no.

I mean, I've spent (or been gifted) a total of like $50 on coffee brewing devices in the last seven years or so. All three of them work perfectly, and will continue to do so in perpetuity unless I drop them. I mean, none of them use electricity, but that's really unnecessary anyway (Hairo cold brew and V60, Farberware Yosemite percolator). A $170 Bunn is total overkill unless you're caffeinating large groups of people (but I have my grandmother's electric percolator for that).

I don't think Apple is really as much of a problem as the author seems to think. In my experience, their products are robust, durable and mostly easy to use. They generally work well for years. They won't last 20 years, but that has as much to do with current battery technology as it does the rest of it.

Jeans, yes. I find that I can get a pair of Levi's to last five years at most (worn 2-5x per week, washed sparingly).

Shoes are another pet peeve of mine. Especially with my kid. I'm not super hard on my own shoes, so they last a long time. My five-year-old likes to drag his toes when he rides his bike. He wore holes in the tops of his $25 Sketchers in one week. My wife found an online shoe company called Plae that's like double the price, but he's going to outgrow these shoes and they still look new.

ketchup

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2018, 02:38:30 PM »
Quote
Most $30 pairs [of jeans] will last six months ó less if they are worn a few times a week, the way jeans should be.
I don't know where this person gets their jeans, but this can't be right.  My jeans are typically $4.99 from Goodwill (though typically fairly close to new when I buy them) and last at least two years while wearing the same single pair at least 300 of 365 days each year (far more than "a few times a week").
I don't think Apple is really as much of a problem as the author seems to think. In my experience, their products are robust, durable and mostly easy to use. They generally work well for years. They won't last 20 years, but that has as much to do with current battery technology as it does the rest of it.
Yeah, shockingly I've found Apple to be the least-bad in terms of planned smartphone obsolescence.  Current iOS supports devices going back 4-5 years; good luck finding that elsewhere.

mm1970

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2018, 03:03:31 PM »
Quote
Most $30 pairs [of jeans] will last six months ó less if they are worn a few times a week, the way jeans should be.
I don't know where this person gets their jeans, but this can't be right.  My jeans are typically $4.99 from Goodwill (though typically fairly close to new when I buy them) and last at least two years while wearing the same single pair at least 300 of 365 days each year (far more than "a few times a week").
I don't think Apple is really as much of a problem as the author seems to think. In my experience, their products are robust, durable and mostly easy to use. They generally work well for years. They won't last 20 years, but that has as much to do with current battery technology as it does the rest of it.
Yeah, shockingly I've found Apple to be the least-bad in terms of planned smartphone obsolescence.  Current iOS supports devices going back 4-5 years; good luck finding that elsewhere.

This is funny because of a convo I had at work this week.

A coworker said "nice sweater, is it new?"  I said "no, it was a gift from my mother.  I love it.  She died in 2011."

He honestly could not believe, for a minute, that I'm wearing a sweater that is more than 7 years old.  I mean, it's held up very well.  Not all sweaters do.

But he loves shopping and clothing and started offering me clothes (for myself and my husband) because he has a lot, plus a lot of his kids' clothing, because he likes to shop.  My officemate made a joke "can you see her working at a makeup counter?"  Ha.  I mean, I had a few years in my 20s where I bought fashionable clothing, then eventually returned to my cheap country girl roots.  No makeup, jeans, sweaters or T-shirts.

I pointed out that I don't need new clothing.  We replace our clothing when it wears out.  I do have 2 pairs of jeans that I should probably not wear anymore.  They are >10 years old, and are wearing out on the inner thighs.  I still occasionally wear them.  So on one hand, I don't understand wearing out jeans in 6 months.  On the other, my husband's jeans - he has two pairs, and they wear out in 12 months (get holes in the knees, usually).

It seemed sad and strange to him, but I find it wasteful.  Plus I hate shopping.  I have a favorite pair of $15 jeans from Costco.  Every time I go there, I look for another pair.  They are not fashionable, but comfy.  No luck.

fattest_foot

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2018, 03:19:19 PM »
Jeans, yes. I find that I can get a pair of Levi's to last five years at most (worn 2-5x per week, washed sparingly).

Weird. I've been buying Levi's and only wear them to work. Generally wear a pair twice a week and within about a year they'll start wearing out in the crotch.

I've tried doing sewing repairs but that only gives them about another month of wear. And I wash them once every 4-6 weeks and air dry them, too.

ChickenStash

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2018, 03:56:21 PM »
I don't think Apple is really as much of a problem as the author seems to think. In my experience, their products are robust, durable and mostly easy to use. They generally work well for years. They won't last 20 years, but that has as much to do with current battery technology as it does the rest of it.
Yeah, shockingly I've found Apple to be the least-bad in terms of planned smartphone obsolescence.  Current iOS supports devices going back 4-5 years; good luck finding that elsewhere.

Agreed about Apple devices. On the Android side, going with a "pure" Android phone is similar in that they'll support a few major updates before they finally obsolete the device. My previous phone was a Nexus 5X (mid-range model) and it shipped with 6 but I was able to take upgrades to 7 then 8 during the time I used it. It was getting a little slow on 8 so that would probably be the last major OS upgrade, though.
 

Just Joe

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2018, 05:35:40 PM »
I don't remember the details but I read there is a new Android update system being worked out that should bypass the carriers so your device gets updates sooner and longer.

cantgrowone

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2018, 06:34:46 PM »
I agree America has a junk epidemic, many parts of the world do. There are 9 self storage places within 5 miles of my home. The people in my neighborhood park their cars on the street because their garage is overflowing with junk.

This epidemic will probably be addressed the same way as the obesity epidemic.

I found this video that reflects the junk epidemic, Mann by Steve Cutts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGMYdalClU

Off topic...this is a good watch too, Happiness by Steve Cutts: https://youtu.be/e9dZQelULDk

golden1

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2018, 07:13:09 PM »
I was with him until he started talking about Apple.  Apple products are some of the better made technology products out there, and arenít junk.  They are some of the few computers that hold their value.  Just donít update the operating system if you want to keep using them. 

He was right on the money in terms of clothes.  I am in my mid 40ís, and generally speaking clothes prices have remained the same or even decreased since I was a young adult.  There has been a big move towards disposable fashion. A year ago they opened a Primark store in my town.  I am honestly flabbergasted that they can sell clothing so cheap and still make money.  $15 jeans, $6 T-shirtís etc.... but the stuff shrinks and falls apart after a few washes.  I prefer more timeless casual styles that last.  Eddie Bauer, L.L. Bean, Duluth trading. 

NoStacheOhio

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2018, 06:57:58 AM »
Jeans, yes. I find that I can get a pair of Levi's to last five years at most (worn 2-5x per week, washed sparingly).

Weird. I've been buying Levi's and only wear them to work. Generally wear a pair twice a week and within about a year they'll start wearing out in the crotch.

I've tried doing sewing repairs but that only gives them about another month of wear. And I wash them once every 4-6 weeks and air dry them, too.

Wearing out in the crotch? That's weird. Knees are always the first thing to go for me. I do have a small child though.

ketchup

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2018, 07:48:25 AM »
I was with him until he started talking about Apple.  Apple products are some of the better made technology products out there, and arenít junk.  They are some of the few computers that hold their value.  Just donít update the operating system if you want to keep using them.
I defended Apple upthread, but running out-of-support operating systems is a Bad Idea(tm).  I assume you're talking about Apple desktops/laptops - those have to be supported a lot longer than iOS devices, right (I have no idea)?  If your stuff is truly that old, update your stuff if you do anything important on that device or log in to anything.

GuitarStv

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2018, 08:04:25 AM »
iOS devices are designed to be junk.  Apple purposely cripples them with updates when they release new shit.  This is why we will never again own an Apple product.  I don't expect a product to be the fastest out there five years from now.  I do expect a product to operate at the same speeds it started out at.  Apple products will not do this, by design.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2018, 08:28:34 AM »
I was with him until he started talking about Apple.  Apple products are some of the better made technology products out there, and arenít junk.  They are some of the few computers that hold their value.  Just donít update the operating system if you want to keep using them.
I defended Apple upthread, but running out-of-support operating systems is a Bad Idea(tm).  I assume you're talking about Apple desktops/laptops - those have to be supported a lot longer than iOS devices, right (I have no idea)?  If your stuff is truly that old, update your stuff if you do anything important on that device or log in to anything.

Yes and no. Apple often releases security updates for two or three OS versions back.

ketchup

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2018, 08:48:22 AM »
I was with him until he started talking about Apple.  Apple products are some of the better made technology products out there, and arenít junk.  They are some of the few computers that hold their value.  Just donít update the operating system if you want to keep using them.
I defended Apple upthread, but running out-of-support operating systems is a Bad Idea(tm).  I assume you're talking about Apple desktops/laptops - those have to be supported a lot longer than iOS devices, right (I have no idea)?  If your stuff is truly that old, update your stuff if you do anything important on that device or log in to anything.

Yes and no. Apple often releases security updates for two or three OS versions back.
I guess what I'm really asking is how far back hardware-wise can you run a supported version of the OS (including those two or three versions back)?  For iPhones that's circa 2013 (iPhone 5S).

NoStacheOhio

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2018, 09:02:05 AM »
I guess what I'm really asking is how far back hardware-wise can you run a supported version of the OS (including those two or three versions back)?  For iPhones that's circa 2013 (iPhone 5S).

For computer systems is a lot farther back. We just replaced my ~2011 Mac Pro at work, and honestly it was fine. Aside from not having Thunderbolt and the newer iterations of USB, it was a beast.

mm1970

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2018, 10:09:44 AM »
Jeans, yes. I find that I can get a pair of Levi's to last five years at most (worn 2-5x per week, washed sparingly).

Weird. I've been buying Levi's and only wear them to work. Generally wear a pair twice a week and within about a year they'll start wearing out in the crotch.

I've tried doing sewing repairs but that only gives them about another month of wear. And I wash them once every 4-6 weeks and air dry them, too.

Wearing out in the crotch? That's weird. Knees are always the first thing to go for me. I do have a small child though.
I wonder how much this depends on style of jean, and -ahem- build of the person wearing them.  And also: job.

I sit at my desk a lot, but I do try to walk a couple of times a week.  I have big thighs.  No thigh gap here.  So, that's where they wear out.  Someone with thinner thighs who doesn't walk in their jeans a couple of hours a week might find they last longer.

My husbands' jeans wear out in the knees too.  He's tall and skinny.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2018, 10:15:59 AM »
My husbands' jeans wear out in the knees too.  He's tall and skinny.

6'0" and 150# here, so ... cosign, lol.

Sibley

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2018, 10:17:44 AM »
...
Shoes are another pet peeve of mine. Especially with my kid. I'm not super hard on my own shoes, so they last a long time. My five-year-old likes to drag his toes when he rides his bike. He wore holes in the tops of his $25 Sketchers in one week. My wife found an online shoe company called Plae that's like double the price, but he's going to outgrow these shoes and they still look new.

There's another solution there: teach the kid not to drag his toes. And if he does, he can wear shoes with holes in them for a while. There are consequences to actions, and it won't hurt him to learn that in such a low-risk way. In fact, it'll probably help him a lot.

Prairie Stash

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2018, 10:25:16 AM »
Jeans, yes. I find that I can get a pair of Levi's to last five years at most (worn 2-5x per week, washed sparingly).

Weird. I've been buying Levi's and only wear them to work. Generally wear a pair twice a week and within about a year they'll start wearing out in the crotch.

I've tried doing sewing repairs but that only gives them about another month of wear. And I wash them once every 4-6 weeks and air dry them, too.

Wearing out in the crotch? That's weird. Knees are always the first thing to go for me. I do have a small child though.
Tight pants that rub in the crotch area will wear out. Its not a quality issue so much as a design issue. Some people have gaits where the interior of the thighs rub as they walk. Some people buy pants that are tight
or they may have put on a couple pounds but don't adjust their clothing. Unlike most clothing wear, its not primarily caused by over washing.

The solution is often that the individual needs a larger pant size to prevent fabric from stretching and rubbing. I hope this helps prevent premature crotch holes, good luck!

Further reading:
https://www.reddit.com/r/malefashionadvice/comments/25ycpy/why_do_all_my_jeans_get_holes_in_the_crotch_in_1/

NoStacheOhio

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2018, 10:46:24 AM »
There's another solution there: teach the kid not to drag his toes. And if he does, he can wear shoes with holes in them for a while. There are consequences to actions, and it won't hurt him to learn that in such a low-risk way. In fact, it'll probably help him a lot.

Wow. I never would have thought of that. It's not like we told him not to drag his toes every time he went outside. /s

We took money out of his allowance to pay for new shoes. Because things cost money and shoes aren't optional.

I'm a red panda

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2018, 11:00:02 AM »
Jeans, yes. I find that I can get a pair of Levi's to last five years at most (worn 2-5x per week, washed sparingly).

Weird. I've been buying Levi's and only wear them to work. Generally wear a pair twice a week and within about a year they'll start wearing out in the crotch.

I've tried doing sewing repairs but that only gives them about another month of wear. And I wash them once every 4-6 weeks and air dry them, too.

I buy my jeans from Target. I wear them 7 days a week, and have two pairs.  The inner thigh wears out in about a year (I am not overweight, but have no thigh gap), and I patch them, that wears out, and I patch them.  My current pairs are about 5 years old.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 12:08:55 PM by iowajes »

EricEng

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2018, 11:55:14 AM »
iOS devices are designed to be junk.  Apple purposely cripples them with updates when they release new shit.  This is why we will never again own an Apple product.  I don't expect a product to be the fastest out there five years from now.  I do expect a product to operate at the same speeds it started out at.  Apple products will not do this, by design.
Quite the opposite. Apple is actually doing you a favor downclocking the cpu some so your phone stays usable longer.  As the battery ages it is unable to support the cpu at full throttle.  If the cpu tries to draw more than the battery supplies, the phone/tablet will just crash and restart.  I've seen this problem on 6 android phone/tablets that I've personally fixed by replacing the battery.  The alternative to a new battery would be to downclock the processor to avoid overstressing the battery. 

I know Apple is getting crucified over this and am a huge Android fan myself, but Apple was correct in this.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2018, 12:10:15 PM »
I know Apple is getting crucified over this and am a huge Android fan myself, but Apple was correct in this.

This is where transparency is your friend.

ketchup

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2018, 12:33:08 PM »
I guess what I'm really asking is how far back hardware-wise can you run a supported version of the OS (including those two or three versions back)?  For iPhones that's circa 2013 (iPhone 5S).

For computer systems is a lot farther back. We just replaced my ~2011 Mac Pro at work, and honestly it was fine. Aside from not having Thunderbolt and the newer iterations of USB, it was a beast.
Yeah, I just looked it up and it looks like the current version of the OS is supported back to ~2010 models, and has another ~2.5 years of support left.  That's pretty good. 

I looked up Windows 10 by comparison and it looks like it's supported on basically anything you're willing to run it on going back to about 2005 or so, with support until 2025.

So MS definitely still wins on that front, but Apple still supports their computers longer than their smartphones, which would be madness any other way.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2018, 12:39:40 PM »
I guess what I'm really asking is how far back hardware-wise can you run a supported version of the OS (including those two or three versions back)?  For iPhones that's circa 2013 (iPhone 5S).

For computer systems is a lot farther back. We just replaced my ~2011 Mac Pro at work, and honestly it was fine. Aside from not having Thunderbolt and the newer iterations of USB, it was a beast.
Yeah, I just looked it up and it looks like the current version of the OS is supported back to ~2010 models, and has another ~2.5 years of support left.  That's pretty good. 

I looked up Windows 10 by comparison and it looks like it's supported on basically anything you're willing to run it on going back to about 2005 or so, with support until 2025.

So MS definitely still wins on that front, but Apple still supports their computers longer than their smartphones, which would be madness any other way.

The shorter timeframe is probably a function of the switch in chip architectures around that time. They went from PowerPC to Intel, so that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the same going forward.

ketchup

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2018, 12:50:17 PM »
I guess what I'm really asking is how far back hardware-wise can you run a supported version of the OS (including those two or three versions back)?  For iPhones that's circa 2013 (iPhone 5S).

For computer systems is a lot farther back. We just replaced my ~2011 Mac Pro at work, and honestly it was fine. Aside from not having Thunderbolt and the newer iterations of USB, it was a beast.
Yeah, I just looked it up and it looks like the current version of the OS is supported back to ~2010 models, and has another ~2.5 years of support left.  That's pretty good. 

I looked up Windows 10 by comparison and it looks like it's supported on basically anything you're willing to run it on going back to about 2005 or so, with support until 2025.

So MS definitely still wins on that front, but Apple still supports their computers longer than their smartphones, which would be madness any other way.

The shorter timeframe is probably a function of the switch in chip architectures around that time. They went from PowerPC to Intel, so that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the same going forward.
The switch to Intel was 2006, so nothing that uses the Core microarchitecture (Core 2 Duo and the like circa 2006-2009) is still supported.

GuitarStv

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2018, 01:13:33 PM »
iOS devices are designed to be junk.  Apple purposely cripples them with updates when they release new shit.  This is why we will never again own an Apple product.  I don't expect a product to be the fastest out there five years from now.  I do expect a product to operate at the same speeds it started out at.  Apple products will not do this, by design.
Quite the opposite. Apple is actually doing you a favor downclocking the cpu some so your phone stays usable longer.  As the battery ages it is unable to support the cpu at full throttle.  If the cpu tries to draw more than the battery supplies, the phone/tablet will just crash and restart.  I've seen this problem on 6 android phone/tablets that I've personally fixed by replacing the battery.  The alternative to a new battery would be to downclock the processor to avoid overstressing the battery. 

I know Apple is getting crucified over this and am a huge Android fan myself, but Apple was correct in this.

I wasn't talking about them getting caught while doing this recently with the iphones (although quietly hiding a battery problem by downgrading your phone is far from 'correct').  My annoyance stems from well before this.

MilesTeg

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2018, 02:55:09 PM »
iOS devices are designed to be junk.  Apple purposely cripples them with updates when they release new shit.  This is why we will never again own an Apple product.  I don't expect a product to be the fastest out there five years from now.  I do expect a product to operate at the same speeds it started out at.  Apple products will not do this, by design.
Quite the opposite. Apple is actually doing you a favor downclocking the cpu some so your phone stays usable longer.  As the battery ages it is unable to support the cpu at full throttle.  If the cpu tries to draw more than the battery supplies, the phone/tablet will just crash and restart.  I've seen this problem on 6 android phone/tablets that I've personally fixed by replacing the battery.  The alternative to a new battery would be to downclock the processor to avoid overstressing the battery. 

I know Apple is getting crucified over this and am a huge Android fan myself, but Apple was correct in this.

Naw, the core problem is a non user replaceable battery, which is absolutely done as part of a planned obsolescence strategy. Apple is not alone in this (and more and more manufacturers are doing this), but that other's are also in the wrong does not excuse Apple.

Also include in this list things like no SD card slot, proprietary interfaces (lightning head phones and/or adapters), flimsy design, etc.

ketchup

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2018, 03:38:47 PM »
iOS devices are designed to be junk.  Apple purposely cripples them with updates when they release new shit.  This is why we will never again own an Apple product.  I don't expect a product to be the fastest out there five years from now.  I do expect a product to operate at the same speeds it started out at.  Apple products will not do this, by design.
Quite the opposite. Apple is actually doing you a favor downclocking the cpu some so your phone stays usable longer.  As the battery ages it is unable to support the cpu at full throttle.  If the cpu tries to draw more than the battery supplies, the phone/tablet will just crash and restart.  I've seen this problem on 6 android phone/tablets that I've personally fixed by replacing the battery.  The alternative to a new battery would be to downclock the processor to avoid overstressing the battery. 

I know Apple is getting crucified over this and am a huge Android fan myself, but Apple was correct in this.

Naw, the core problem is a non user replaceable battery, which is absolutely done as part of a planned obsolescence strategy. Apple is not alone in this (and more and more manufacturers are doing this), but that other's are also in the wrong does not excuse Apple.

Also include in this list things like no SD card slot, proprietary interfaces (lightning head phones and/or adapters), flimsy design, etc.
I was the one originally defending Apple and iOS products in relation to planned obsolescence.  You may notice I called them the "least bad" option, not "great" by any means.  They do plenty of stupid stuff.

Non-user-replaceable battery is absolutely the most outrageous deliberate design flaw of iPhones.  Unfortunately, most of the rest of smartphone manufacturers do it too.

No expandable storage is pretty dumb, but my experience with Android devices and microSD cards was a colossal pain in the ass too.

No 3.5mm headphone jack is the most day-to-day frustrating limitation (I have an iPhone 7).  I don't use headphones often, but I plug it into my car almost every day and needing an adapter is just ridiculous.  And on long drives not being able to charge at the same time is just stupid.

Really though, the fact that my phone will be supported by the then-current OS until about 2021 is what overall tilts me in Apple's favor.  Even flagship Android phones are supported (from release, not when you happen to buy it) for two years tops.

EricEng

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2018, 08:20:40 AM »
Naw, the core problem is a non user replaceable battery, which is absolutely done as part of a planned obsolescence strategy. Apple is not alone in this (and more and more manufacturers are doing this), but that other's are also in the wrong does not excuse Apple.
I wouldn't say this is part of planned obsolescence.  Rather, they are giving customers and reviewers what they ask for which means sacrifices for things more tech DIY folks like.

-People keep asking for thinner, smaller phones.  Hence batteries become hardwired.
-People criticized Samsung Galaxy phones for years for their "cheap" removeable plastic backs that were needed for easy battery replacement.  So now we have glued on glass backs (that get covered by cases).
-People drop phones in water/toilets and want waterproofing.  That rules out easy open backs and requires sealed compartments for batteries and less IO ports. 
-Many people are still on plans where they trade in every 6-18 months, not because there phone is bad, but because they want the latest and greatest.  This is more telecom company fault than phone manufacturing and design fault.

So while I'm annoyed about these changes as a techy DIY guy who is value oriented, I totally understand why it has happened and don't totally blame the manufacter/designers for giving what some (majority?) want at the expense of the minority users.

Just Joe

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2018, 08:37:15 AM »
I've never found the microSD cards to be a PITA. Its a big factor when I am device shopping. No card slot, no buy. Gives me the ability to have a phone with 256GB of storage for maybe half the cost of an iPhone and I'm not paying the Samsung "tax". There are other brands besides.

ketchup

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2018, 08:50:14 AM »
I've never found the microSD cards to be a PITA. Its a big factor when I am device shopping. No card slot, no buy. Gives me the ability to have a phone with 256GB of storage for maybe half the cost of an iPhone and I'm not paying the Samsung "tax". There are other brands besides.
I tried to use microSD cards with two of my three previous Android smartphones (Samsung Galaxy S and HTC 626s), and on both, the ability to use it was very half-baked.  The Galaxy S in particular had such a hilariously low amount of onboard storage space so that after some OS updates I literally could install like 4-5 apps (INCLUDING the normal Google apps) before it started freezing up and almost no apps I cared about could be installed on the SD card.  It was basically only good for storing music or photos.  The 626s was (a lot) better about it, but still had lots of stuff I couldn't actually move onto the SD card in a useful way.

I'm not saying I prefer not having the option (it is quite silly), but chucking an SD card in a phone is hardly equivalent to more native storage.

MilesTeg

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2018, 09:59:11 AM »
Naw, the core problem is a non user replaceable battery, which is absolutely done as part of a planned obsolescence strategy. Apple is not alone in this (and more and more manufacturers are doing this), but that other's are also in the wrong does not excuse Apple.
I wouldn't say this is part of planned obsolescence.  Rather, they are giving customers and reviewers what they ask for which means sacrifices for things more tech DIY folks like.

-People keep asking for thinner, smaller phones.  Hence batteries become hardwired.
-People criticized Samsung Galaxy phones for years for their "cheap" removeable plastic backs that were needed for easy battery replacement.  So now we have glued on glass backs (that get covered by cases).
-People drop phones in water/toilets and want waterproofing.  That rules out easy open backs and requires sealed compartments for batteries and less IO ports. 
-Many people are still on plans where they trade in every 6-18 months, not because there phone is bad, but because they want the latest and greatest.  This is more telecom company fault than phone manufacturing and design fault.

So while I'm annoyed about these changes as a techy DIY guy who is value oriented, I totally understand why it has happened and don't totally blame the manufacter/designers for giving what some (majority?) want at the expense of the minority users.

* The iPhone battery has been not user replacable since day 1. It's absolutely a planned obsolescence feature.
* Waterproofing does not require non-openable backs or less I/O ports (see Galaxy S5 and some other phones ). My S5 is still going strong after 2 battery changes and several water incidents.
* Some people replacing phones on silly schedules is irrelevant. Apple (et al.) is happy they do and tries to get everyone to do that.

EricEng

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2018, 01:05:12 PM »
* The iPhone battery has been not user replacable since day 1. It's absolutely a planned obsolescence feature.
* Waterproofing does not require non-openable backs or less I/O ports (see Galaxy S5 and some other phones ). My S5 is still going strong after 2 battery changes and several water incidents.
* Some people replacing phones on silly schedules is irrelevant. Apple (et al.) is happy they do and tries to get everyone to do that.
I love my s4, s5, and s7 which the family still uses.  That said, the s5 usb hatch door was a PIA and didn't last long with me.  I'm not sure how they made the S5 as water resistant as it was with all the hatches and removable back.  Modern design is definitely sealed tighter.
https://androidforums.com/threads/galaxy-s5-is-not-waterproof.867969/

That does still ignore the huge flak every review site kept giving the S5 for the cheap plastic back (which I loved btw).  Most consumers demanded metal and glass backs for some asinine reason, which means not removable.  Trust me, I agree with you, but I understand why they did it too.

Apple does a lot of hard sacrifices for the name of art and progress, but I don't see it as intentional sabotage.  I see it more as trying to force the industry forward from legacy compatability that can hold us back.  IE: I still see motherboards and video cards with DVI and VGA connectors.  Apple trying to move us into a wireless earbud future is neat.

ketchup

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2018, 01:37:36 PM »
Apple does a lot of hard sacrifices for the name of art and progress, but I don't see it as intentional sabotage.  I see it more as trying to force the industry forward from legacy compatability that can hold us back.  IE: I still see motherboards and video cards with DVI and VGA connectors.  Apple trying to move us into a wireless earbud future is neat.
Well, that's one thing to call it.

"Courageously" removing the 3.5mm headphone jack, breaking compatibility with every pair of wired headphones ever made by anyone that isn't Apple unless you use an adapter seems just silly.

If 75% of wired headphones had moved on from the 3.5mm headphone jack to something else, fine, that's "moving forward"; this was not that at all.

What do you propose in lieu of DVI and VGA?  VGA fine, let it die slowly, but I work in IT, and every monitor we have in our building supports VGA (and none of these are more than a few years old).  Maybe 85% of them do DVI, and 10% probably have HDMI and 0% DisplayPort.  DVI is still the real standard.  And HDMI is a distant second, but it's the same signal as DVI anyway.  DisplayPort is the way of the future for sure, but it's not really here yet for non-4K monitors, so forcing it just turns my IT department into adapter city.  The video card I bought last year had some silly amount of ports on it, I think 1x DVI, 3x DP, and 1x HDMI.  At work, I have bought an insane amount of DisplayPort-DVI or DisplayPort-VGA adapters for some of our newer PCs, and it's incredibly obnoxious. 

Let the standards be the standards. 3.5mm audio. DVI.  What the hell is wrong with either of them until other things naturally displace them over time?  Keep them around as a backup at the very least.  Apple also decided MacBook Pros don't need type-A USB ports on them.  On something marketed to creative professionals.  I'd need an adapter to plug in a CF card to dump it.  Seriously.

MilesTeg

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2018, 01:54:34 PM »

Apple does a lot of hard sacrifices for the name of art and progress, but I don't see it as intentional sabotage.

It absolutely is intentional sabotage. In addition to no swappable batteries, they engage in many other anti-consumer behavior/design decisions:

* current laptops that have obsolete hardware yet still priced at a premium
* soldered on RAM and storage
* no expandable storage on phones (and outrageous prices for internal storage)
* extremely limited I/O ports (#)
* moving to a proprietary headphone solution
* forcing recyclers to scrap perfectly good hardware instead of reselling
* fight against 3rd party repair shops (imagine only being able to take your car to the original manufacturer for a repair job!)

It's so bad some states are even looking to legally force Apple (et al.) to stop being anti consumer by bringing changes like "right to repair" legislation. Apple has done a great job cultivating a positive image -- but if you pay attention to what's behind the marketing you see a pretty terrible company that does whatever it can to make people buy new things constantly. Much like many other companies, except they charge a premium price for these designed to be disposable products.

And it's not that other companies are super great, but Apple is among the worst for designing products this way.

Quote
I see it more as trying to force the industry forward from legacy compatability that can hold us back.  IE: I still see motherboards and video cards with DVI and VGA connectors.  Apple trying to move us into a wireless earbud future is neat.

How does retaining compatibility with old hardware "hold us back"? What is having both an HDMI/DP AND a DVI port preventing you from doing? How is retaining an audio connector with compatibility (sans grossly overpriced and inconvenient adapters) with BILLIONS of already made and long lasting devices holding us back? How is forcing consumers to buy crappy wireless/bluetooth earbuds that sound worse than $5 marshmellow wired buds an improvement?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 02:02:51 PM by MilesTeg »

mm1970

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2018, 11:04:37 AM »

Apple does a lot of hard sacrifices for the name of art and progress, but I don't see it as intentional sabotage.

It absolutely is intentional sabotage. In addition to no swappable batteries, they engage in many other anti-consumer behavior/design decisions:

* current laptops that have obsolete hardware yet still priced at a premium
* soldered on RAM and storage
* no expandable storage on phones (and outrageous prices for internal storage)
* extremely limited I/O ports (#)
* moving to a proprietary headphone solution
* forcing recyclers to scrap perfectly good hardware instead of reselling
* fight against 3rd party repair shops (imagine only being able to take your car to the original manufacturer for a repair job!)

It's so bad some states are even looking to legally force Apple (et al.) to stop being anti consumer by bringing changes like "right to repair" legislation. Apple has done a great job cultivating a positive image -- but if you pay attention to what's behind the marketing you see a pretty terrible company that does whatever it can to make people buy new things constantly. Much like many other companies, except they charge a premium price for these designed to be disposable products.

And it's not that other companies are super great, but Apple is among the worst for designing products this way.

Quote
I see it more as trying to force the industry forward from legacy compatability that can hold us back.  IE: I still see motherboards and video cards with DVI and VGA connectors.  Apple trying to move us into a wireless earbud future is neat.

How does retaining compatibility with old hardware "hold us back"? What is having both an HDMI/DP AND a DVI port preventing you from doing? How is retaining an audio connector with compatibility (sans grossly overpriced and inconvenient adapters) with BILLIONS of already made and long lasting devices holding us back? How is forcing consumers to buy crappy wireless/bluetooth earbuds that sound worse than $5 marshmellow wired buds an improvement?
I'm not a fan of Apple products.  Have an old iPad and iPod, used sparingly.  I hate iTunes though.  Phones are not Apple.

It's funny though because back in the dark ages (late 1980s), one of my required freshman engineering classes talked about such things as "planned obsolescence" and intentionally selling folks on "repair" contracts.

It's pretty classic.

GuitarStv

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2018, 11:28:31 AM »

Apple does a lot of hard sacrifices for the name of art and progress, but I don't see it as intentional sabotage.

It absolutely is intentional sabotage. In addition to no swappable batteries, they engage in many other anti-consumer behavior/design decisions:

* current laptops that have obsolete hardware yet still priced at a premium
* soldered on RAM and storage
* no expandable storage on phones (and outrageous prices for internal storage)
* extremely limited I/O ports (#)
* moving to a proprietary headphone solution
* forcing recyclers to scrap perfectly good hardware instead of reselling
* fight against 3rd party repair shops (imagine only being able to take your car to the original manufacturer for a repair job!)

It's so bad some states are even looking to legally force Apple (et al.) to stop being anti consumer by bringing changes like "right to repair" legislation. Apple has done a great job cultivating a positive image -- but if you pay attention to what's behind the marketing you see a pretty terrible company that does whatever it can to make people buy new things constantly. Much like many other companies, except they charge a premium price for these designed to be disposable products.

And it's not that other companies are super great, but Apple is among the worst for designing products this way.

Quote
I see it more as trying to force the industry forward from legacy compatability that can hold us back.  IE: I still see motherboards and video cards with DVI and VGA connectors.  Apple trying to move us into a wireless earbud future is neat.

How does retaining compatibility with old hardware "hold us back"? What is having both an HDMI/DP AND a DVI port preventing you from doing? How is retaining an audio connector with compatibility (sans grossly overpriced and inconvenient adapters) with BILLIONS of already made and long lasting devices holding us back? How is forcing consumers to buy crappy wireless/bluetooth earbuds that sound worse than $5 marshmellow wired buds an improvement?
I'm not a fan of Apple products.  Have an old iPad and iPod, used sparingly.  I hate iTunes though.  Phones are not Apple.

It's funny though because back in the dark ages (late 1980s), one of my required freshman engineering classes talked about such things as "planned obsolescence" and intentionally selling folks on "repair" contracts.

It's pretty classic.

That's classic . . . but what seems to be more modern is the cult-like following that has developed around particular products.  These people appear to see legitimate criticism of their preferred brand as an attack on them, their lifestyle, and everything they love.  This kind of love for an uncaring corporate entity is disturbing.

EricEng

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2018, 12:37:53 PM »
What do you propose in lieu of DVI and VGA?  VGA fine, let it die slowly, but I work in IT, and every monitor we have in our building supports VGA (and none of these are more than a few years old).  Maybe 85% of them do DVI, and 10% probably have HDMI and 0% DisplayPort.  DVI is still the real standard.  And HDMI is a distant second, but it's the same signal as DVI anyway.  DisplayPort is the way of the future for sure, but it's not really here yet for non-4K monitors, so forcing it just turns my IT department into adapter city.  The video card I bought last year had some silly amount of ports on it, I think 1x DVI, 3x DP, and 1x HDMI.  At work, I have bought an insane amount of DisplayPort-DVI or DisplayPort-VGA adapters for some of our newer PCs, and it's incredibly obnoxious. 
Your work is really outdated then.  We haven't utilized VGA outside legacy simulators for 5+ years.  Analog is just such a pain to work with and poor image quality.  95% of our tvs and monitors (somewhere around 400-500) are either HDMI or DP.  About half have a DVI-D.  Then again, most of our stuff is 4k, so dvi isn't even an option.  Even our 1080p monitors all support either hdmi or dp with the exception of those more than ~7 years old.
Quote
How does retaining compatibility with old hardware "hold us back"? What is having both an HDMI/DP AND a DVI port preventing you from doing? How is retaining an audio connector with compatibility (sans grossly overpriced and inconvenient adapters) with BILLIONS of already made and long lasting devices holding us back?
In multiple ways.  Keeping those legacy ports on their adds cost to every purchase.  It also forces engineers and designers to ensure their device is still compatible with those old standards from 20-30 years ago.  IE: Monitor manufacturer working on 4k monitor including compatibility for lower resolutions via analog VGA or DVI.  Those legacy ports are not compatible with new technology like Gsync and Freesync either.  By removing those ports you can, ever so slowly, move people to new standards and eventually drop the legacy support. How many pcs do you see with parallel, serial, or floppy drives anymore?  How long did we spend including those after they were relics?
Quote
It absolutely is intentional sabotage. In addition to no swappable batteries, they engage in many other anti-consumer behavior/design decisions:

* current laptops that have obsolete hardware yet still priced at a premium
* soldered on RAM and storage
* no expandable storage on phones (and outrageous prices for internal storage)
* extremely limited I/O ports (#)
* moving to a proprietary headphone solution
* forcing recyclers to scrap perfectly good hardware instead of reselling
* fight against 3rd party repair shops (imagine only being able to take your car to the original manufacturer for a repair job!)
Obsolete Hardware: If you think Apple is bad about this, you should see the 10+ year obsolete hardware sold to the military and govt for new contracts, all because it takes that long to get from design to delivery that the new gear is out of production by the time it is rolling out.  I bring that up because Apple is doing a similar, albiet faster approach.  They are trying to do heavy design and control with heavy quality testing which means some of the hardware is a generation or two old by the time the product is finished.  This is why I personally don't buy Apple products as I like the fastest and greatest, but if you want realiability and quality, then it's a compromise.

Soldered Ram/storage: Multiple reasons.  One, smaller/slimmer packaging.  Two, Less issue of cords shaking loss for quality assurance improvement.  Three, lower cost (maybe?) than swapable ports.

No expandable storage: This is annoying, but they do this because they can't control the quality of the micro SD you put in.  I've seen many people trash a phone that just had a bad sd card (they fail often and early).  They don't want their quality reputation tarnished because someone stuck a $10 special sd card in that fails.

Limited IO: Minimalist Art choice that's been Apple's philsophy for ages.  Power users hate like us hate it obviously, but I see why.

Propietary headphone: They wanted to force a change to bluetooth headphones, but still needed some fallback option via the only port left on the phone.  Again, I see why, even if I don't like it.

no recycled: Uhm, I have family who have purchased refurbished Iphones. 

Repair shops: Again, Apple wants to control the quality and ensure you don't get a poorly done repair.  The reason Apple has such a reputation for quality (and thus can charge the premium) is because they protect that quality like their life depends on it, because it does.  Obviously us power users dislike that, but there is a reason to it beyond just profit/obsolescence.

That said, I have never bought any Apple except their stock, so don't try to classify me as a fanboy.  As a power DIY user, I prefer the ability to modify and better specs.  My extended family mostly uses Apple which saves me from having to provide much support.  I respect their design choices for art and progress with the knowledge that it comes with compromise and friction that won't be a match for everyone (such as myself).

ketchup

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2018, 01:20:46 PM »
What do you propose in lieu of DVI and VGA?  VGA fine, let it die slowly, but I work in IT, and every monitor we have in our building supports VGA (and none of these are more than a few years old).  Maybe 85% of them do DVI, and 10% probably have HDMI and 0% DisplayPort.  DVI is still the real standard.  And HDMI is a distant second, but it's the same signal as DVI anyway.  DisplayPort is the way of the future for sure, but it's not really here yet for non-4K monitors, so forcing it just turns my IT department into adapter city.  The video card I bought last year had some silly amount of ports on it, I think 1x DVI, 3x DP, and 1x HDMI.  At work, I have bought an insane amount of DisplayPort-DVI or DisplayPort-VGA adapters for some of our newer PCs, and it's incredibly obnoxious. 
Your work is really outdated then.  We haven't utilized VGA outside legacy simulators for 5+ years.  Analog is just such a pain to work with and poor image quality.  95% of our tvs and monitors (somewhere around 400-500) are either HDMI or DP.  About half have a DVI-D.  Then again, most of our stuff is 4k, so dvi isn't even an option.  Even our 1080p monitors all support either hdmi or dp with the exception of those more than ~7 years old.
I hooked up a new monitor yesterday at work that was literally purchased the previous day.  It has VGA and HDMI.  The PC I hooked it up to had onboard VGA and DP.  The monitor came with a VGA cable.  Guess what? I used VGA.  No, it's not perfect, but it's the most compatible.  I'm not going to go buy a bunch of separate cables and adapters every time we set up a new PC/monitor if I don't have to.  That's the part that's a pain.  If we were a graphics shop, sure fine, but we're not.  Our displays are almost entirely 1920x1080; I understand that DP becomes needed at higher resolutions, but we simply haven't reached the point where that affects the masses yet.

Of course, at home, we have a 4K monitor connected via DisplayPort.  My girlfriend is a pro photographer and yes, cares about image quality/color/reproducibility.  And even at work, I'm a geek about it, so my own personal workstation monitors are both connected digitally (via HDMI-DVI and DP-DVI adapters) even though it's a pain (and makes using a KVM switch much more work than it should be).
Quote
Quote
How does retaining compatibility with old hardware "hold us back"? What is having both an HDMI/DP AND a DVI port preventing you from doing? How is retaining an audio connector with compatibility (sans grossly overpriced and inconvenient adapters) with BILLIONS of already made and long lasting devices holding us back?
In multiple ways.  Keeping those legacy ports on their adds cost to every purchase.  It also forces engineers and designers to ensure their device is still compatible with those old standards from 20-30 years ago.  IE: Monitor manufacturer working on 4k monitor including compatibility for lower resolutions via analog VGA or DVI.  Those legacy ports are not compatible with new technology like Gsync and Freesync either.  By removing those ports you can, ever so slowly, move people to new standards and eventually drop the legacy support. How many pcs do you see with parallel, serial, or floppy drives anymore?  How long did we spend including those after they were relics?
Parallel, serial, and floppy drives disappeared much more organically than this mess of display connectors.  They only left the scene on most systems once people had 95% stopped using them.  There needs to be overlap between new standards becoming available (USB in the case of parallel/serial) and the old stuff hanging around for compatibility/sanity's sake.  Everyone won't magically switch over as soon as the new standard is out there.  Adapters can be a stopgap solution, but those are a pain, an added expense, and an additional point of failure.  I've dealt with enough USB-Serial adapters (for laboratory equipment) to know that even that doesn't always go as planned.

But the 3.5mm headphone jack going away is so much worse.  There's not even a standard to replace it with, it's just gone.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 01:26:25 PM by ketchup »

MilesTeg

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2018, 01:42:27 PM »
In multiple ways.  Keeping those legacy ports on their adds cost to every purchase.  It also forces engineers and designers to ensure their device is still compatible with those old standards from 20-30 years ago.  IE: Monitor manufacturer working on 4k monitor including compatibility for lower resolutions via analog VGA or DVI.  Those legacy ports are not compatible with new technology like Gsync and Freesync either.  By removing those ports you can, ever so slowly, move people to new standards and eventually drop the legacy support. How many pcs do you see with parallel, serial, or floppy drives anymore?  How long did we spend including those after they were relics?

Retaining compatibility with old connectors adds no substantial cost. DVI, HDMI and DP are all the same, the only difference is the physical arrangement of the connector (and DVI lacks the audio parts). Retaining compatibility with VGA is a few cents of hardware that can literally be "bolted" on to an otherwise finished product. Just like a $30 adapter, except for pennies.

The reason all these things are kept around is because the value of having them outweighs the value of removing them. Providing separate designs is a lot more expensive than a single design that has some things that will be used by only a minuscule fraction of users. My brand new "gaming" focused motherboard still has a parallel port, a serial port, and a floppy port. I guarantee only about 0.0001% of the installs of this motherboard use any other those. Why do them have them? Because some people still need them, and it's cheaper (for everyone) to use the same core design for all motherboards rather than have more designs.

The only reason to remove them is to drive sales of adapters and replacement monitors/etc.

There's no good reason to force people to move to new standards for the sake of moving them to new standards. I have very nice monitor that has only DVI and VGA, but otherwise perfectly fits my needs. It would cost me at least $10 to get an adapter (if I scrounged the bottom of the barrel, chinese junk that may or may not work well). It probably cost 1/100 of that for a video card that included both a DP and a DVI connector. Probabl 1/1000 of a new monitor.

Even as a "power user" I couldn't care less about 4k (just makes the text too small without fugly scaling) or Gsync or any other minor feature improvement of a new monitor.

Or better yet, should we spend money to remove serial ports so that all the various industrial equipment (which in some cases are 7-9 figure investments) are no longer usable?

Quote
Obsolete Hardware: If you think Apple is bad about this, you should see the 10+ year obsolete hardware sold to the military and govt for new contracts, all because it takes that long to get from design to delivery that the new gear is out of production by the time it is rolling out.  I bring that up because Apple is doing a similar, albiet faster approach.  They are trying to do heavy design and control with heavy quality testing which means some of the hardware is a generation or two old by the time the product is finished.  This is why I personally don't buy Apple products as I like the fastest and greatest, but if you want realiability and quality, then it's a compromise.

Soldered Ram/storage: Multiple reasons.  One, smaller/slimmer packaging.  Two, Less issue of cords shaking loss for quality assurance improvement.  Three, lower cost (maybe?) than swapable ports.

No expandable storage: This is annoying, but they do this because they can't control the quality of the micro SD you put in.  I've seen many people trash a phone that just had a bad sd card (they fail often and early).  They don't want their quality reputation tarnished because someone stuck a $10 special sd card in that fails.

Limited IO: Minimalist Art choice that's been Apple's philsophy for ages.  Power users hate like us hate it obviously, but I see why.

Propietary headphone: They wanted to force a change to bluetooth headphones, but still needed some fallback option via the only port left on the phone.  Again, I see why, even if I don't like it.

no recycled: Uhm, I have family who have purchased refurbished Iphones. 

Repair shops: Again, Apple wants to control the quality and ensure you don't get a poorly done repair.  The reason Apple has such a reputation for quality (and thus can charge the premium) is because they protect that quality like their life depends on it, because it does.  Obviously us power users dislike that, but there is a reason to it beyond just profit/obsolescence.

That said, I have never bought any Apple except their stock, so don't try to classify me as a fanboy.  As a power DIY user, I prefer the ability to modify and better specs.  My extended family mostly uses Apple which saves me from having to provide much support.  I respect their design choices for art and progress with the knowledge that it comes with compromise and friction that won't be a match for everyone (such as myself).

Whether or not you are an Apple customer is irrelevant, you've clearly bought into the marketing. Especially with attempts to defend Apple working against 3rd party repair shops. Would you accept a world where you could only take your Toyota to a Toyota dealer to get repaired? Would you apply the same "Apple wants to maintain quality" argument to that?

« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 01:46:04 PM by MilesTeg »

EricEng

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2018, 03:30:05 PM »
Quote
I hooked up a new monitor yesterday at work that was literally purchased the previous day.  It has VGA and HDMI.  The PC I hooked it up to had onboard VGA and DP.  The monitor came with a VGA cable.  Guess what? I used VGA.  No, it's not perfect, but it's the most compatible.
Ugh, why would you do that?  DP and HDMI cables are cheap and most monitors come with one now.  Analog video is very blurry and bad for your eyes when reading text.  People like you are the reason we have to take legacy products away to force the upgrade when it is past due.  VGA is over 30 years old, DVI is 19 years old.  HDMI is 16 years old.  DP is 10 years old.  There is no reason to still be using VGA and DVI when you have had over a decade to transition.

VGA is not the most compatible.  You can't get audio through it.  You can't get the monitors edid info through it, forcing monitor makers to support the old VGA monitor info method (again, adding effort and backwords compatibility has a cost during design and manufacturing).  The signal degrades quickly as you go more than a few feet unless you use a super heavy duty cable.

Use digital KVMs instead of Avocents old analog VGA junk.  Upgrading the whole facility was my project a few years back and everyone is much happier with the quality.
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Whether or not you are an Apple customer is irrelevant, you've clearly bought into the marketing. Especially with attempts to defend Apple working against 3rd party repair shops. Would you accept a world where you could only take your Toyota to a Toyota dealer to get repaired? Would you apply the same "Apple wants to maintain quality" argument to that?
I clearly haven't bought into it, hence why I have never bought their products.  I can understand their reasoning without accepting their compromises that come with it.  Seeing valid reasoning for something doesn't mean it is optimal for 100% of people, it never is.  There is plenty you can fault Apple and anyone company for.  For instance, I find the profit margin Apple charges compared to their actual cost to be abusive and manipulating on that image of quality.
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Retaining compatibility with VGA is a few cents of hardware that can literally be "bolted" on to an otherwise finished product
Uh, nope.  You need an entire extra system to deal with the analog video signal instead of the modern digital format.  The design and manufacturing inclusion of that is more than a few cents for no benefit.
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DVI, HDMI and DP are all the same, the only difference is the physical arrangement of the connector (and DVI lacks the audio parts).
Also nope.  Try pushing 4k through even a short DVI cable.  Try converting hdmi to or from DP at 4k without a powered converter.  Converting DP to HDMI or DVI via a passive adapter requires it to enter a compatibility mode and downgraded capability for instance.  They use different data transmission methods and formats.  You should read up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort
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My brand new "gaming" focused motherboard still has a parallel port, a serial port, and a floppy port.
What model?  Where did you find one with a parallel port or floppy? I see none on Newegg, especially not modern gaming systems. Are you sure it has a serial port and not a legacy VGA port?  I buy lots of gaming motherboards for work and never see these anymore.  I will admit serial still has a lot of use in the industry side for easy communication, but good luck finding laptops with it anymore.

ketchup

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2018, 03:55:10 PM »
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I hooked up a new monitor yesterday at work that was literally purchased the previous day.  It has VGA and HDMI.  The PC I hooked it up to had onboard VGA and DP.  The monitor came with a VGA cable.  Guess what? I used VGA.  No, it's not perfect, but it's the most compatible.
Ugh, why would you do that?  DP and HDMI cables are cheap and most monitors come with one now.  Analog video is very blurry and bad for your eyes when reading text.  People like you are the reason we have to take legacy products away to force the upgrade when it is past due.  VGA is over 30 years old, DVI is 19 years old.  HDMI is 16 years old.  DP is 10 years old.  There is no reason to still be using VGA and DVI when you have had over a decade to transition.

VGA is not the most compatible.  You can't get audio through it.  You can't get the monitors edid info through it, forcing monitor makers to support the old VGA monitor info method (again, adding effort and backwords compatibility has a cost during design and manufacturing).  The signal degrades quickly as you go more than a few feet unless you use a super heavy duty cable.

Use digital KVMs instead of Avocents old analog VGA junk.  Upgrading the whole facility was my project a few years back and everyone is much happier with the quality.
Did you read what I said? The monitor did not come with one, and I would have required an adapter to go DP-HDMI (which exists but is a less common conversion vs DP-VGA or DP-DVI).  I'm not spending $25 on cables and adapters just to plug in an $80 monitor (and getting the user their system a day later).  For some oddball reason, they all still come with VGA cables.  I've only once had a monitor come with DVI or HDMI cables (and I think our 4K monitor at home came with a mini-DP cable).

"Most compatible" in this context does not mean "does the most".  I mean most compatible in that you are most likely to be able to plug one end into a monitor, and the other end into a PC, with no BS conversion headaches needed.  DVI used to be like this, but now it's all DP/HDMI on PCs.  In our environment, we do not care about sound.  Most PCs are on mute, or people plug in headphones (there's that 3.5mm jack again).  And if we did care about sound, I certainly wouldn't want to use shitty speakers in a monitor.

I don't need the signal to go more than a few feet, so we get no appreciable degradation.  Barely anyone has complained about blurry text.  I had that issue once that I can think of, and replacing an old junk cable fixed the problem.

I do have a digital KVM at work.  I'm on my second DVI one, since the first made my dual monitor setup flip out.  It switches DVI, but none of the recent PCs I've messed with actually have DVI, they're all HDMI or DP.  And with scrounging leftover adapters, I have a HDMI-DVI adapter, and a DP-HDMI adapter.  If I have a PC with only HDMI, I connect the HDMI-DVI adapter.  If I have a PC with DP, I connect the HDMI-DVI adapter and then the DP-HDMI adapter in-line with it.  It's stupid.

Skylake and later PCs are dropping VGA support, so I do concede that it's on the way out, but that doesn't mean it needs to vanish from existence before that organically happens.  DVI/HDMI/DP are demonstrably superior tech too, I'm certainly not still hooking stuff up with VGA because I like it more.

MilesTeg

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2018, 03:56:55 PM »
I clearly haven't bought into it, hence why I have never bought their products.  I can understand their reasoning without accepting their compromises that come with it.  Seeing valid reasoning for something doesn't mean it is optimal for 100% of people, it never is.  There is plenty you can fault Apple and anyone company for.  For instance, I find the profit margin Apple charges compared to their actual cost to be abusive and manipulating on that image of quality.

Sure you have, your providing excuses for Apple's bad behavior.

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Retaining compatibility with VGA is a few cents of hardware that can literally be "bolted" on to an otherwise finished product
Uh, nope.  You need an entire extra system to deal with the analog video signal instead of the modern digital format.  The design and manufacturing inclusion of that is more than a few cents for no benefit.

Wrong. It's extremely cheap to build the silicon to convert. It's why you can buy cable converters for a few bucks (including markup)...

For example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016HL4CAY/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B016HL4CAY&pd_rd_wg=JfTzd&pd_rd_r=4JYJ7BQBW2PENP8QDDJ1&pd_rd_w=EtUvL

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DVI, HDMI and DP are all the same, the only difference is the physical arrangement of the connector (and DVI lacks the audio parts).
Also nope.  Try pushing 4k through even a short DVI cable.  Try converting hdmi to or from DP at 4k without a powered converter.  Converting DP to HDMI or DVI via a passive adapter requires it to enter a compatibility mode and downgraded capability for instance.  They use different data transmission methods and formats.  You should read up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort

Displayport is backwards compatible with HDMI, which is backwards compatible with DVI. Yes, DP has more bandwidth than HDMI which has more bandwidth than DVI, but putting connecting and DVI port to a DP bus is trivial, and take a few pennies.

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My brand new "gaming" focused motherboard still has a parallel port, a serial port, and a floppy port.
What model?  Where did you find one with a parallel port or floppy? I see none on Newegg, especially not modern gaming systems. Are you sure it has a serial port and not a legacy VGA port?  I buy lots of gaming motherboards for work and never see these anymore.  I will admit serial still has a lot of use in the industry side for easy communication, but good luck finding laptops with it anymore.
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Many motherboards I look at on newegg still has parallel and serial support.

ex: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA85V5AP2448 (serial and parallel)
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132935 (com/serial port header)

In newlook, look at the "specification" page and then go to "Internal I/O > Other Connectors and look for "serial port header" and "parallel port header".

When you drop away from the Z series (enthusiast/gaming oriented) they becoming even more common. And again, these manufacturers know that they will only be used by a tiny, tiny fractions of users but it's effectively no cost to add them so they do to avoid having even more designs to deal with.

TomTX

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2018, 07:33:53 AM »
What do you propose in lieu of DVI and VGA?  VGA fine, let it die slowly, but I work in IT, and every monitor we have in our building supports VGA (and none of these are more than a few years old).  Maybe 85% of them do DVI, and 10% probably have HDMI and 0% DisplayPort.  DVI is still the real standard.  And HDMI is a distant second, but it's the same signal as DVI anyway.  DisplayPort is the way of the future for sure, but it's not really here yet for non-4K monitors, so forcing it just turns my IT department into adapter city.  The video card I bought last year had some silly amount of ports on it, I think 1x DVI, 3x DP, and 1x HDMI.  At work, I have bought an insane amount of DisplayPort-DVI or DisplayPort-VGA adapters for some of our newer PCs, and it's incredibly obnoxious. 
Your work is really outdated then.  We haven't utilized VGA outside legacy simulators for 5+ years.  Analog is just such a pain to work with and poor image quality.  95% of our tvs and monitors (somewhere around 400-500) are either HDMI or DP.  About half have a DVI-D.  Then again, most of our stuff is 4k, so dvi isn't even an option.  Even our 1080p monitors all support either hdmi or dp with the exception of those more than ~7 years old.
I hooked up a new monitor yesterday at work that was literally purchased the previous day.  It has VGA and HDMI.  The PC I hooked it up to had onboard VGA and DP.  The monitor came with a VGA cable.  Guess what? I used VGA.  No, it's not perfect, but it's the most compatible.  I'm not going to go buy a bunch of separate cables and adapters every time we set up a new PC/monitor if I don't have to.  That's the part that's a pain.  If we were a graphics shop, sure fine, but we're not.  Our displays are almost entirely 1920x1080; I understand that DP becomes needed at higher resolutions, but we simply haven't reached the point where that affects the masses yet.

Don't buy monitors that are such utter crap. My cheap 24" monitors both have DP. Trust me, the State of Texas ain't buying me high-end monitors. Not checking for proper ports before purchase is lazy IT.

And forcing "the masses" to use VGA when both the computer and monitor have digital compatibility is another example of lazy IT. There is a difference in output quality, and you are causing more eyestrain and lower productivity.

You're supposed to be supporting the workers. Do it right.

If you don't like adapters, and can't get monitors that actually have DP for some reason - just spend the $12* for a DVI-DP cable.

*Highly rated, Amazon Prime, 2-day delivery - you can get them far cheaper in bulk, which you should get.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: America's Junk Epidemic
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2018, 10:29:31 AM »
...
Shoes are another pet peeve of mine. Especially with my kid. I'm not super hard on my own shoes, so they last a long time. My five-year-old likes to drag his toes when he rides his bike. He wore holes in the tops of his $25 Sketchers in one week. My wife found an online shoe company called Plae that's like double the price, but he's going to outgrow these shoes and they still look new.

There's another solution there: teach the kid not to drag his toes. And if he does, he can wear shoes with holes in them for a while. There are consequences to actions, and it won't hurt him to learn that in such a low-risk way. In fact, it'll probably help him a lot.

Plae are excellent and totally worth the money! Our kid has the big feet. We buy them new (because we haven't found them used)... but then resell them to another friend who puts them through her two children's feet, and then on they go to a third family through one or both of their kids.

Ours is less about dragging his toes and more about being a very active and outdoors child. Shoes get crammed in rocks and trees to climb, go through mud, etc. Most cheap kid's shoes won't put up with that rigorous use.