Author Topic: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough  (Read 4921 times)

boridi

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 14
$55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« on: September 18, 2018, 04:59:13 AM »
http://time.com/longform/teaching-in-america/

Other highlights: Teacher makes $69,000/year, can't afford visits to a doctor's office, and wants a "livable wage"

Mesmoiselle

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 323
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2018, 05:40:21 AM »
I live in Louisville; before I switched to contract work, I earned 48k gross working part time. Husband was grossing 20k as a TA. When we were still spendy pants, we'd blow husband entire net salary on food. We still saved a bit, guess cuz we had roommates?

It's plenty. She and her husband obviously got a spending problem worse than even we had

I showed this article to husband who has lived in KY all his life:

"It sounds like people who grew up in the upper-middle class who can't fathom not living in a wealthy neighborhood."

There are some.overpriced houses in Louisville but they are in specific neighborhoods, easy to avoid

Edit add: and as a person who grew up in Oklahoma and still has family there, 69k gross is also plenty. These people need a budget.

I think TIME magazine just wanted some sound bites to make the teaching situation sound worse than it is.Teachers should be paid more but not because they can't pay their bills
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 05:58:08 AM by Mesmoiselle »

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2018, 07:56:30 AM »
off topic: https://www.forbes.com/sites/maddieberg/2018/09/16/salesforce-billionaire-marc-benioff-to-buy-time-magazine/#6bcfa4be6efe

KY - depends on which part of KY that teacher lives in. Lexington vs eastern rural KY (coal country) - very different places. I think teacher and husband could live on $55K if they took a frugal approach. Older cars, smallish house, cooking at home. We know the drill here at the MM forums.

I figure they fell into the trap of too much house and too much shopping for their modest income. Sometimes it is easy to do when everyone around you is spending alot. Must have a home as seen in the decorator magazines.

If her husband could match her income with his own they'd have lots of spare cash each month but alas the article simply focused on the teacher's income. The article could have been more useful if they had focused as much on the importance of spending carefully as how much the teachers though they should be paid. Should have been more strategies discussed.

ysette9

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3177
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2018, 11:10:20 AM »
I think the issue of people not being able to love within their means is always there at many income levels. I’d hate for that to have that overshadow the real challenge discussed in the article of low/stagnant pay. Personally I see teaching as something very important (I really hope my kids get great teachers once they start school!). It is also a profession that I would never consider.
I can get paid tons more in industry and have better autonomy and respect, perks, benefits, and deal with less bullshit. So that leaves me wondering: who does go into teaching? I suspect it is the people who are drawn to it as a passion and then the, sorry to be mean, second-tier workers. Everyone needs a job and not everyone can or should go to Ivys and study engineering, do my intent isn’t to disparage people. We do need to ask ourselves as a society though what slice of college graduates we hope to entice into teaching. Things aren’t structured now to attract the top 10 or even 50% of graduating classes into the profession.

honeybbq

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1023
  • Location: Seattle
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2018, 12:29:46 PM »
Brown often works from 5 a.m. to 4 p.m. at her school in Versailles, Ky.


While I think teachers are underpaid, this is not normal.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2008
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2018, 12:49:33 PM »
I think the issue of people not being able to love within their means is always there at many income levels. Iíd hate for that to have that overshadow the real challenge discussed in the article of low/stagnant pay. Personally I see teaching as something very important (I really hope my kids get great teachers once they start school!). It is also a profession that I would never consider.
I can get paid tons more in industry and have better autonomy and respect, perks, benefits, and deal with less bullshit. So that leaves me wondering: who does go into teaching? I suspect it is the people who are drawn to it as a passion and then the, sorry to be mean, second-tier workers. Everyone needs a job and not everyone can or should go to Ivys and study engineering, do my intent isnít to disparage people. We do need to ask ourselves as a society though what slice of college graduates we hope to entice into teaching. Things arenít structured now to attract the top 10 or even 50% of graduating classes into the profession.

I'm sure this was a typo but it's still a profound statement. Not just in a romantic sense: as a species, we humans aspire a lot, don't we? Whether it's an over-the-top wedding, a boat, a fancy vehicle, the kind of job that doesn't generate much income, travel, or a family member... so many of us fall in love with something-- or someone-- that really isn't affordable.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1165
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2018, 01:27:11 PM »
I think the issue of people not being able to love within their means is always there at many income levels. Iíd hate for that to have that overshadow the real challenge discussed in the article of low/stagnant pay. Personally I see teaching as something very important (I really hope my kids get great teachers once they start school!). It is also a profession that I would never consider.
I can get paid tons more in industry and have better autonomy and respect, perks, benefits, and deal with less bullshit. So that leaves me wondering: who does go into teaching? I suspect it is the people who are drawn to it as a passion and then the, sorry to be mean, second-tier workers. Everyone needs a job and not everyone can or should go to Ivys and study engineering, do my intent isnít to disparage people. We do need to ask ourselves as a society though what slice of college graduates we hope to entice into teaching. Things arenít structured now to attract the top 10 or even 50% of graduating classes into the profession.

I'm sure this was a typo but it's still a profound statement. Not just in a romantic sense: as a species, we humans aspire a lot, don't we? Whether it's an over-the-top wedding, a boat, a fancy vehicle, the kind of job that doesn't generate much income, travel, or a family member... so many of us fall in love with something-- or someone-- that really isn't affordable.

Ha, was thinking the same.

And don't you dare suggest someone not do what they "love" because of something silly like lack of money. That makes you the evil dream squasher. /s

ysette9

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3177
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2018, 01:28:21 PM »
I’m pleased you could find something meaningful in my fat-fingered typo. :)

Louisville

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2018, 01:33:57 PM »
I'm in Louisville, KY. I am Louisville. If you're not getting by in Versailles, KY on a $69k salary, you're doing something way wrong.

dcheesi

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 695
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2018, 01:51:38 PM »
Brown often works from 5 a.m. to 4 p.m. at her school in Versailles, Ky.


While I think teachers are underpaid, this is not normal.
It would be if she's including time spent on grading, lesson planning, etc. The hours spent in class are just one part of a teacher's workday; there's lots more work that needs to be done.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2008
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2018, 04:42:08 PM »
Brown often works from 5 a.m. to 4 p.m. at her school in Versailles, Ky.


While I think teachers are underpaid, this is not normal.
It would be if she's including time spent on grading, lesson planning, etc. The hours spent in class are just one part of a teacher's workday; there's lots more work that needs to be done.

I don't think this is an example of grading or lesson planning. I think it's an example of OVUM (Officially Voluntary; Unofficially Mandatory) sports coaching or activities supervision requirements for teachers.

Most activities that require rehearsal (band, drama, cheer, etc.) require far more group practice than is available during the regular classes. Most high school teams also field both varsity and junior varsity teams in a wide variety of sports. The only solution is to make before and after school practice or rehearsal mandatory for the students in those activities. But someone has to organize and coach. While the band, choir, and drama teachers know that after-hours practice is part of the routine, teachers from other subjects get roped in for sports, especially at the junior varsity level. Coaches are very seldom paid for their time.

Timing-wise, if school starts at 7:30 AM, a 5 AM start time is not unreasonable for, say, a marching band rehearsal or varsity sports practice especially if students need to shower before class. A school that starts at 7:30 AM generally wraps things up by 2:30 PM, but then an after-school practice for the concert band or junior varsity team will run another hour and a half, hence the 4 PM finish time.

aceyou

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1472
  • Age: 35
    • Life is Good - Aceyou's Journal
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2018, 05:18:55 PM »
I think the issue of people not being able to love within their means is always there at many income levels. Iíd hate for that to have that overshadow the real challenge discussed in the article of low/stagnant pay. Personally I see teaching as something very important (I really hope my kids get great teachers once they start school!). It is also a profession that I would never consider.
I can get paid tons more in industry and have better autonomy and respect, perks, benefits, and deal with less bullshit. So that leaves me wondering: who does go into teaching? I suspect it is the people who are drawn to it as a passion and then the, sorry to be mean, second-tier workers. Everyone needs a job and not everyone can or should go to Ivys and study engineering, do my intent isnít to disparage people. We do need to ask ourselves as a society though what slice of college graduates we hope to entice into teaching. Things arenít structured now to attract the top 10 or even 50% of graduating classes into the profession.

Teacher here. 

Agree with your basic premise.  I have a difficult time advocating teaching to kids because...

...If you are the type of person who'd be an amazing teacher, you could currently be making a multiple of a teacher's salary in other professions.  Thus I feel bad recommending teaching.

...if you are the type of person who would not be a great teacher, then I'd prefer not steer them towards education:)

So, for different reasons, I end up thinking most people shouldn't be teachers under the current setup:) 

But I'm a hypocrite.  I graduated top 10 out of 400 math majors at my university.  My friends were mostly those other 9 kids...we did research together.  They are making way more than I am now, but I chose to teach and wouldn't trade it for anything.  I just love it, and since I'm solid at math and frugal, my wife and I are easily able to maintain a 50% saving rate.  We'll definitely be retired before 50.

What I'd like to see is the pay go up simply to attract more top talent to the field.  Having strong educators is very important. 

ysette9

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3177
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2018, 10:21:13 AM »
So you fit into the category of “passion”. I suspect your school and students are lucky to have you.

Spud

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 62
  • Location: Southwest England, UK.
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2018, 11:14:12 PM »
I strongly dislike this type of article. It's not really about teachers. It's about a bunch of people moaning about being hard up when there is no mention of how much they spend relative to what they earn, how much credit card debt they may have, what level of car payment they face each month, how much of a consumer driven, must-keep-up-with-the-joneses numskull they are. Sure, the people in this particular article are teachers, but you could write the same article about surgeons, doctors, architects, bus drivers, construction workers etc. There are so many questions about teir spending that come into my head as I read it. Then I have to grab a hold of myself and remember that this article isn't trying to get to the heart of the matter. It's trying to do something all the more ridiculous. Actually what is the point of the article? I'm not sure that I could put it into words. Is it some kind of weird pity party? Is it trying to convince people how tough modern life is? Is it trying to make people feel better/worse?

aceyou

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1472
  • Age: 35
    • Life is Good - Aceyou's Journal
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2018, 07:05:10 PM »
So you fit into the category of ďpassionĒ. I suspect your school and students are lucky to have you.

It really is fun to see the kids each day and watch them grow. 

Knapptyme

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 207
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Florida
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2018, 07:42:05 PM »

...If you are the type of person who'd be an amazing teacher, you could currently be making a multiple of a teacher's salary in other professions.  Thus I feel bad recommending teaching.

...if you are the type of person who would not be a great teacher, then I'd prefer not steer them towards education:)

Former teacher here (private schools). I agree with the second sentiment as I wouldn't wish those kids becoming teachers on the next set of kids. However, I would often talk to my best and brightest students openly and frankly about the reality of the working world as I knew it. As a teacher, my hours were never bad like the article mentions, and I was able to plan lessons and grade papers mostly during my time at school. I bragged to my students that I never worked a holiday, weekend, or summer I didn't want to as a teacher. (Evenings were mostly off save for parent nights and such.) And I enjoyed my job. Good luck finding that elsewhere in the mainstream world. Possible yes, but not as guaranteed almost anywhere.

I will add that it doesn't help when we recognize the pay disparity as a sort of status symbol. Some parents have let it be known explicitly or implicitly that they were above me simply because I was only a teacher and not something better. The kids are likewise told they can be anything, but being a teacher isn't good enough. So doctor, lawyer, or engineer are the options.

Notes:
My wife still teaches, and she doesn't quite bring home a $55k salary yet. We're doing just fine.

The only reason I'm not officially teaching anymore (nope not FIREd yet) is to stay at home with my kids. I have full confidence I can obtain another teaching job when/if I need it even with a ten-year gap on my resume.

libertarian4321

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1319
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2018, 06:58:21 AM »
When teachers are in college, are they taught to ALWAYS whine about being underpaid?  Or is it something the union trains them to do on their first day on the job?

They claim to be woefully underpaid, despite the fact that they are actually quite well paid.  Not lifestyles of the rich and famous pay, but teachers, who make a national average of $59K per year (above the average national household income) are NOT POORLY PAID!

The first woman whines that she can't make it in Versailles, KY on $55,000 a year, plus what her husband brings in, plus 2 other jobs, plus "donating plasma." 

Seriously?  The average household income in Versailles, KY is $35k per year, and this clown can't make ends meet on a household income that has to be well north of $60k?  Unless she's got a $100 a day crack habit, there is no reason she should need to "donate plasma" just to keep the lights on.

Articles like this are so irresponsible they are simply infuriating.  Plenty of people are getting by in her town on a fraction of her income, so spare me the crocodile tears...

And the other one, making nearly $70,000/year can't afford to keep her car running?  Are you kidding me?

If they mismanage money this badly, I have to wonder if these folks are really bright enough to teach anything more complex than finger painting.




dmac680chi

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 61
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2018, 11:27:42 AM »
About Me for context: I was a History Major, Education minor in college and graduated in 2017 with my teaching license.

So I've done a mix of teaching, substitute teaching, and now being a Special Education Aid. I've also read off and on about the supposed teacher pay crisis and I've come to some conclusions...

1) People often don't take cost of living into account. The following article brings this to attention and provides a better playing field when factoring that in https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/03/16/592221378/the-fight-over-teacher-salaries-a-look-at-the-numbers

2) Teacher pay can vary greatly even within states or districts. For instance I'm in downtown Chicago. In the city we have a salary schedule according to our union. Starting pay is around $49 or $50k. Based on years you teach and your education level you can get paid between $84-$95k or so. Here is the link to the recent pay contract https://www.ctunet.com/blog/text/teacher208.pdf. In the suburbs it can be $90-$120k maxed out as a teacher while downstate though cost of living is cheaper they max out at $60k at the very most.

3) The difference in private vs public school salaries: When I applied for my job last school year (I worked a temporary position for the semester), I looked up what my private high school paid it's teachers. Though that information wasn't publicly displayed, it was available through the archdiocese website. The teachers at my high school start at $28k and even with a PhD and tons of years only get to $60k at most.  That's in Chicago which has a pretty high cost of living.

4) Living On One Income and Saving the Other: If a teacher is married, even to another teacher they should be able to save a decent amount. Say two teachers are married and make $45k each. That's $90k a year. Toss in a kid or two and they'll be fine. Budget minded at times but fine. Sure they won't be able to max out their 403bs and 457's but life will go on. That's one of the problems though, when spouses have a combined salary they think they're entitled to jumping up income levels or living a "higher" or more "bourgeois" lifestyle. It's people like this that might be living paycheck to paycheck but also don't realize they're spending all their hard earned money.

5) Being A Martyr: Let's say someone works a 40 hour work week and takes home $1,800 each biweekly paycheck. Then they have a colleague that decides to work 60-80 hour weeks for the same amount of money. They are being paid the same but one works 20+ hours less. That's the problem, many teachers work tirelessly though since they can't get overtime they aren't compensated for it. If I was offered overtime heck yeah I'd work 60-80 hour weeks for 9 months out of the year. Though the kids need great teachers the lack of compensation to me makes it seem like my time isn't valued and is being given away. Granted this is a hot debate topic amongst educators.

6) Budgeting: As we know especially in the case studies and Anti-Mustacianism Around The Web threads, some people are just awful about money. I'm certainly getting better though far from it as well. That said as we saw in the article I'd love for a breakdown of how they spend their money. I'm sure the Case Study people would be happy to hit that budget and find many ways to cut spending.

7) Student Loans: I graduated without any loans thanks to my parents and some scholarships. That said I'd be drowning if I had to make student loan payments. I won't harp on it but for some who take out significant loans a $50k salary won't cut it or enable them to have the lifestyle they envisioned.   

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3523
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2018, 06:03:27 PM »
Brown often works from 5 a.m. to 4 p.m. at her school in Versailles, Ky.


While I think teachers are underpaid, this is not normal.
Well, a teacher who has it all together won't need to do this everyday, but all teachers do it occasionally.  I did it yesterday (okay, not 5 am, but I was in at 6:30 yesterday and didn't leave 'til about 5:00 -- remember, we don't get a lunch hour).  I know I'm doing it again on Friday.  Two days a week is probably average for my mega-days; in contrast, today I left right after the last bell, and tomorrow'll be moderate -- I'll probably leave about 4:00.   

I strongly dislike this type of article. It's not really about teachers. It's about a bunch of people moaning about being hard up when there is no mention of how much they spend relative to what they earn, how much credit card debt they may have, what level of car payment they face each month, how much of a consumer driven, must-keep-up-with-the-joneses numskull they are. Sure, the people in this particular article are teachers, but you could write the same article about surgeons, doctors, architects, bus drivers, construction workers etc. There are so many questions about teir spending that come into my head as I read it. Then I have to grab a hold of myself and remember that this article isn't trying to get to the heart of the matter. It's trying to do something all the more ridiculous. Actually what is the point of the article? I'm not sure that I could put it into words. Is it some kind of weird pity party? Is it trying to convince people how tough modern life is? Is it trying to make people feel better/worse?
I kinda agree: 

No, I don't think we teachers are paid enough.  Our job has changed SIGNIFICANTLY since I started teaching in the 90s, and more is added to our plate every year.  In all honesty, it's really not the same job it was when I started -- and the new teachers are leaving in droves; literally every young teacher I know has an "escape plan".  Last June I saw more teachers leave than I've ever seen in a single year, and I expect it'll continue.  I don't blame them; if I weren't so near my final career goals, I would leave too.  Take my word for it:  Within a decade these young teachers will have entered other careers, and teachers my age will have retired.  We are headed for a teacher crisis the likes of which we've not seen before.  Whatever you think about teachers and pay, this seems to me to be true:  When a job is fairly compensated, people want to work in that job. People enter teaching, but they don't stay. 

On the other hand, these people in the article are the extreme cases; you know that journalists can always sniff them out.  I suspect these people have debt or horrible spending habits.  The vast majority of the teachers I know are comfortable enough by today's American standards -- whether they're saving or not.

As for me, I'll offer this as a counterpoint to the article: 
I am the only wage-earner in my household.  Last year I supported three adults.  We have no income except my 10 paychecks/year ... I paid for all housing costs, all food costs, support of three cars, and community college tuition /books for one person.  Even in the summer, when no paycheck was coming into our house, we did not touch our savings.  I maxed out my 401K and put $900/month into savings every month.  I paid just over 15% of my gross pay for insurance for the three of us, which I resent -- it's too much.  Yes, I spend too much for my classroom -- probably $200/year, but I also take advantage of every teacher discount available to me. 

This year our youngest child has transferred to a university, and we did dip into savings to pay tuition and dorm costs.  We are continuing to save at the same rate, but with another tuition /dorm payment due in January, we will "lose" savings over the course of the year.  That's okay:  We've known for 18 years that she'd go to college, and we saved for it.  (I know, crazy, isn't it?)
 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 06:05:29 PM by MrsPete »

mizzourah2006

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 406
  • Location: NWA
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2018, 06:53:05 PM »
Maybe this is naive, but arenít teachers working on a 9-month work year? After time off around Christmas and spring break, etc. they compare the pay to nurses and 73k/yr. if you take 75% of that you are at around $54k, so the difference between the two isnít as large as it looks at first glance.

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4320
  • Age: 10
  • Location: USA
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2018, 10:07:20 PM »
This woman is an idiot with numbers. She probably spent her entire shift's money searching handbag at Rupp Arena just driving between Versailles and Lexington. Lexington is an incredibly affordable city, the area around even more so.

ysette9

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3177
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2018, 10:13:27 PM »
@MrsPete: can you talk to us more about why teachers are leaving? What has changed so dramatically from the 90s?

MrUpwardlyMobile

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
    • The Upwardly Mobile Life
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2018, 10:15:59 PM »
Teaching is one of those jobs that seems to recruit people incapable of realizing that high paying jobs tend to have way more work requirements than them. 

An entry level lawyer at a small firm in New York is making between $50k-$65k and working 7 am to  9 pm 6-7 days per week and not taking days off if they want their income to increase quickly.  Donít want to put in that kind of work? Youíll realistically top out around $110k per year salary many years later unless youíre a savant in some enumerated area.

Doctors in residency making similar amounts and work crazy hours. Seriously, 2-3 24 hours shifts in a week some alongside normal work days seems mentally taxing. Doctor salaries arenít that impressive in many specialties and regions when you consider the workload and the cost of education.

Teaching is a pretty relaxed job.  Grading isnít complex in most cases. In most curricula, lesson plans require minor tweaking from year to year.  You have lots of days off, summers off, and when they arenít off, they have fairly normal hours for jobs that require a degree. 




StacheDash

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2018, 08:23:55 AM »
DW is in her 8th year of teaching full time and makes less than $40k a year in a LCOL area. We donít struggle to get by because we have found this website and I also make a higher wage. She works in a very demanding classroom with loads of stress. The Time article may have chosen bad examples, but letís not assume all teachers are spoiled brats who canít manage a budget.

A near by school system was short over 40 teachers at the beginning of the school year. A real lack of educators seems to be developing in my state. Teacher pay and how society views the profession may be major contributing factors.

MgoSam

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3631
  • Location: Minnesota
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2018, 10:49:18 AM »
Teaching is a pretty relaxed job.  Grading isnít complex in most cases. In most curricula, lesson plans require minor tweaking from year to year.  You have lots of days off, summers off, and when they arenít off, they have fairly normal hours for jobs that require a degree.

As someone with about a dozen friends that are teachers, I strongly disagree. I too used to think that teachers had a sweet gig, they worked 9 months a year and could recite the same lesson plan. Fast forward to actually knowing teachers well and seeing how hard they work and how little support they are given (many of my friends buy equipment out of their own pocket for their students) I take back much of what I had said about teachers.

It is a profession I know that I would not be suited for but I am certainly glad for the many wonderful teachers I had.

Slee_stack

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 817
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2018, 04:00:29 PM »
Do most professional salaried jobs truly have 40 hour work weeks?

Since one argument says teachers put in unpaid hours, my own experience has been that 40 hours is a very soft starting point for most professionals.  Honestly, 50 hours seems to be a more realistic standard average.  I've witnessed it throughout my whole career.

I do know a very few fortunate salaried people that do get paid straight time OT, but they are a very rare bird.  The extra 10 hours is almost always 'on the house' .

I don't personally know any professionals (outside gov't) that could ever get a pension....regardless of how many years they might work for a company.

I also have a family member who is a teacher that admits she hated alot of the admin and parent bs...but otherwise the compensation was fairly amazing considering.

If teachers have it hard, every profession also has it hard in its own way.  I really believe overall compensation is fair on the whole.

If there is a teacher shortage, salaries will absolutely have to go up to attract new ones.  I guess the market will eventually tell us if they are under-compensated or not.

Mesmoiselle

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 323
  • Location: Kentucky
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2018, 10:22:01 PM »
I hadn't thought they were under compensated as such, just that there isn't a number you can really put on dealing with other's annoying children and their overbearing parents. And administration. That certainly keeps me from ever considering it.

I think there are plenty? of Mustachians who get paid more to deal with zero of this and they still hate their job because of the admin and bad coworkers.

You can hack it or you can't but the money is okay?

But we're getting off the OP kinda? 55k in Kentucky and 69k in Oklahoma is above livable.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3523
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2018, 09:08:28 PM »
Maybe this is naive, but arenít teachers working on a 9-month work year? After time off around Christmas and spring break, etc. they compare the pay to nurses and 73k/yr. if you take 75% of that you are at around $54k, so the difference between the two isnít as large as it looks at first glance.
10 months.  Thing is, if you're earning $54K, it still spends like $54K ... not a comparably larger number. 

@MrsPete: can you talk to us more about why teachers are leaving? What has changed so dramatically from the 90s?
Money is definitely one of the reasons -- a big reason.  I have the impression (but no facts to prove) that my state is one of the worst.  We were under a pay-freeze for 6-7 years, and we still are "behind", whereas other state employees have been "made whole".  The state legislature is telling the public that they're giving teachers big raises, but the truth is that they keep raising starting teacher pay, and they're doing nothing for those of us at the top of the pay scale.  Until two years ago -- because of cancellation of bonuses and increase in benefit costs -- I was actually making fewer dollars than I was 10-12 years ago. 

Benefits are another reason.  When I started teaching in the 90s, "the deal" was that teachers would never get a big paycheck, but we could count on good benefits and a pension.  Well, the benefits have been cut and cut and cut -- and what we pay for them has gone up and up and up.  That "deal" is gone, yet politicians still "sell it" to the public:  Teachers are whining!  Look at their benefits! 

Reasons exist beyond compensation ...

Behavior and grades in schools are insane.  I mean, we all hear about school shootings, but things are going downhill in other ways too.  I've been punched -- and after a ten-day suspension, the student was sent right back to my classroom.  Disrespect for teachers is rampant; I mean, kids'll simply refuse to complete assignments ... walk out of class without permission ... and the things they say:  Get away from me ... stop talking ... you ain't my mama ... you want me to ___? Nope, you're not getting what you want ... ##%#$%#$.  Ask a student to put away his phone, and the answer'll be, "Bitch, this is my mama!  I'll put the phone away when I'm good and fucking ready."  Ask a student to put away the breakfast biscuit he's eating, and he'll say, "No.  I'm hungry.  Fuck off."  Write him up, send that file to the office -- the kid gets a 10 minute conference with an administrator.  Kids destroy things in the classroom, and I am held responsible for it; for example, I turned around one day recently and saw that a kid had pulled out a drawer and was sitting it -- yeah, as if it were a chair.  Grades are not a motivator because essentially every student is promoted to the next grade, even if he or she has missed 40+ days of school /has an average of 40-something.  We have actually "dropped" passing from 70 to 60 ... we are required to allow "test corrections" ... we are not allowed to give zeros.  Essentially we have NO authority any more. In an average week, I have 2-4 BAD interactions with students. 

Note that MOST of our students do not behave like this.  MOST of our students are nice kids -- but lazy.  About 50% of our students come from "the projects" and are on free lunch.  Those things are often correlated with such behaviors.  I am in a school that's in decline, and it gets worse every year.  Most of the schools surrounding us are not as severe. 

Meetings, Professional Development workshops, and various other duties (for example, lunch duty and afternoon parking lot duty) take up much of our time.  I'm putting in MANY, MANY, MANY more hours than I did when I started teaching, and it's not anything that helps in my classroom.  I keep thinking, I've been in this job for years, and if I can't keep up comfortably, what are the new teachers doing? 

Classroom sizes continue to increase.  When I started teaching, my classes were 20-25ish ... now my smallest class is 31.  Doesn't sound like a big deal?  Extra desks mean students are crammed together -- more talking, more cheating, more hiding phones and food, less space for bookbags.  Extra students mean more special needs, more grading.

About 15 years ago a study showed that for every five new teachers, three would leave within the first five years.  The number is higher now, though it seems that the new teachers are dropping during student teaching ... they aren't making it to actual classrooms of their own.  The university near us is requiring more observation hours early in the educational program, and that's a good thing -- for the people not cut out for teaching, it's good to find that out sooner rather than later.  Some are going to other educational options, but more seem to be leaving the profession altogether. 

It's just a mess. 

Teaching is a pretty relaxed job.  Grading isnít complex in most cases. In most curricula, lesson plans require minor tweaking from year to year.  You have lots of days off, summers off, and when they arenít off, they have fairly normal hours for jobs that require a degree.
Teaching has its benefits:  yes, predictable hours, holidays off -- and snow days!  Teachers don't need summer care for their kids.  I'm not at all unappreciative of these perks. 

But you're wrong about it being a relaxed job.  You're wrong about grading; kids (and parents) frequently demand an explanation about why this paper is a B instead of an A.  You're wrong about lesson plans too; the state frequently changes curriculum expectations /requirements -- and, even if they didn't, students are different from year to year. 

If teachers have it hard, every profession also has it hard in its own way ... If there is a teacher shortage, salaries will absolutely have to go up to attract new ones.  I guess the market will eventually tell us if they are under-compensated or not.
Oh, I totally agree that every profession has its pros and cons. 

We are in the first stages of a BIG teacher shortage here.  We don't have subs anymore -- all the teachers who want to work full time ARE working full time.  What do we do when someone's out?  Other teachers tag-team it to cover their classes ... as a result, we all try really, really hard NOT to be out because we know it punishes our co-workers.  On the other hand, if you look at the Northeastern US, where wages are pretty high, they have loads of applicants for every job. Two differences exist between us:  The Northeast has teacher unions -- most states don't.  The Northeast has high salaries -- most states don't. 

« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 09:12:34 PM by MrsPete »

MrUpwardlyMobile

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
    • The Upwardly Mobile Life
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2018, 09:17:34 PM »
It sounds like regions matter a lot.  My view is the northeast, where there are loads of people that would kill for teaching jobs precisely because theyíre so cushy. 

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3523
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2018, 04:08:52 PM »
It sounds like regions matter a lot.  My view is the northeast, where there are loads of people that would kill for teaching jobs precisely because theyíre so cushy.
I doubt they're any better respected or have it more "cushy" than we do in my area; rather, because they're better-compensated, I think people are more willing to put up with the crap that comes with teaching. 

And the positives of teaching really are positive, especially when your children are small. 

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4320
  • Age: 10
  • Location: USA
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2018, 04:15:37 PM »
Behavior and grades in schools are insane.  I mean, we all hear about school shootings, but things are going downhill in other ways too.  I've been punched -- and after a ten-day suspension, the student was sent right back to my classroom.  Disrespect for teachers is rampant; I mean, kids'll simply refuse to complete assignments ... walk out of class without permission ... and the things they say:  Get away from me ... stop talking ... you ain't my mama ... you want me to ___? Nope, you're not getting what you want ... ##%#$%#$.  Ask a student to put away his phone, and the answer'll be, "Bitch, this is my mama!  I'll put the phone away when I'm good and fucking ready."  Ask a student to put away the breakfast biscuit he's eating, and he'll say, "No.  I'm hungry.  Fuck off."  Write him up, send that file to the office -- the kid gets a 10 minute conference with an administrator.  Kids destroy things in the classroom, and I am held responsible for it; for example, I turned around one day recently and saw that a kid had pulled out a drawer and was sitting it -- yeah, as if it were a chair.  Grades are not a motivator because essentially every student is promoted to the next grade, even if he or she has missed 40+ days of school /has an average of 40-something.  We have actually "dropped" passing from 70 to 60 ... we are required to allow "test corrections" ... we are not allowed to give zeros.  Essentially we have NO authority any more. In an average week, I have 2-4 BAD interactions with students. 

Note that MOST of our students do not behave like this.  MOST of our students are nice kids -- but lazy.  About 50% of our students come from "the projects" and are on free lunch.  Those things are often correlated with such behaviors.  I am in a school that's in decline, and it gets worse every year.  Most of the schools surrounding us are not as severe. 
Yeah that sounds fucking terrible. When I was a kid, if I ever got in trouble at school my mom would take whatever punishment was handed by the teacher and triple it. So if I was assigned 50 lines of "I will not engage in such and such behavior", I would be doing the 50 plus an additional 150.

How much of your degraded environment do you think is attributable to fluctuations in affluence of the school district, vs fluctuation in policy?

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3523
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2018, 04:48:45 PM »
Yeah that sounds fucking terrible. When I was a kid, if I ever got in trouble at school my mom would take whatever punishment was handed by the teacher and triple it. So if I was assigned 50 lines of "I will not engage in such and such behavior", I would be doing the 50 plus an additional 150.

How much of your degraded environment do you think is attributable to fluctuations in affluence of the school district, vs fluctuation in policy?
Yeah, today was terrible, but -- so what?  It's done, and I'm down to a year and a half more before my pension's maxed out.  I'm young to be this close to a max pension, so leaving early really isn't a choice -- if I don't "max out", my age will really reduce my pension ... whereas, if I "max out", my age doesn't matter. 

Yeah, the rule in my childhood home was, Whatever you get at school, you get two at home.  Rewarded at school?  You're getting double at home.  Punished at school?  You're getting double at home. 

I think a great deal of it has to do with our large group of low-income /low-ability /low-support at home kids.  When you get so many of them in one school, they play off one another, and it's just insane.  However, policy isn't helping either.  Our mid-to-upper kids care about their grades, so the no-zeros, etc. doesn't affect them -- they aren't earning zeros anyway.  And with more and more options for high school, our mid-to-upper kids are decreasing in number. 

The bottom line is that we get no back up from home and no backup from the office. 

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1930
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2018, 07:18:53 AM »
Doctors in residency making similar amounts and work crazy hours. Seriously, 2-3 24 hours shifts in a week some alongside normal work days seems mentally taxing. Doctor salaries arenít that impressive in many specialties and regions when you consider the workload and the cost of education.

Doctors might spend 3 years in residency making subsistence wages while working crazy hours, but they it's pretty easy for them to get up into the $300,000+ range after that. Most normal people would be shocked at how lucrative medicine is. In order to make that kind of money, however, doctors do work crazy hours. It's not really appropriate to compare the MA/Teacher's certificate to the four years of medical school, either.

I cannot imagine anything a teacher could do career-wise to bring about a year in which $300,000 is within reach.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2008
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2018, 12:06:00 AM »
Doctors in residency making similar amounts and work crazy hours. Seriously, 2-3 24 hours shifts in a week some alongside normal work days seems mentally taxing. Doctor salaries arenít that impressive in many specialties and regions when you consider the workload and the cost of education.

Doctors might spend 3 years in residency making subsistence wages while working crazy hours, but they it's pretty easy for them to get up into the $300,000+ range after that. Most normal people would be shocked at how lucrative medicine is. In order to make that kind of money, however, doctors do work crazy hours. It's not really appropriate to compare the MA/Teacher's certificate to the four years of medical school, either.

I cannot imagine anything a teacher could do career-wise to bring about a year in which $300,000 is within reach.

So far as I know, Walter White was the only one to manage it.

MrUpwardlyMobile

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
    • The Upwardly Mobile Life
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2018, 06:39:28 AM »
Doctors in residency making similar amounts and work crazy hours. Seriously, 2-3 24 hours shifts in a week some alongside normal work days seems mentally taxing. Doctor salaries arenít that impressive in many specialties and regions when you consider the workload and the cost of education.

Doctors might spend 3 years in residency making subsistence wages while working crazy hours, but they it's pretty easy for them to get up into the $300,000+ range after that. Most normal people would be shocked at how lucrative medicine is. In order to make that kind of money, however, doctors do work crazy hours. It's not really appropriate to compare the MA/Teacher's certificate to the four years of medical school, either.

I cannot imagine anything a teacher could do career-wise to bring about a year in which $300,000 is within reach.
do you include professors as teachers? If you do, $300k is pretty plausible.

MrUpwardlyMobile

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
    • The Upwardly Mobile Life
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2018, 06:47:27 AM »
It sounds like regions matter a lot.  My view is the northeast, where there are loads of people that would kill for teaching jobs precisely because theyíre so cushy.
I doubt they're any better respected or have it more "cushy" than we do in my area; rather, because they're better-compensated, I think people are more willing to put up with the crap that comes with teaching. 

And the positives of teaching really are positive, especially when your children are small.

Cushy is pretty accurate.  High pay, spectacular benefits, your job can be kept for 2 years following a pregnancy without returning to work.

EDIT: I was writing a big anecdotal post when I realize that would have no credibility on an internet message board. Here is something objective for your consideration. Itís a listing of teacher salaries in New York as public information.. https://projects.newsday.com/databases/long-island/teacher-administrator-salaries-2016-2017/


And average salaries of all employees by district from several districts on Long Island in New York.  These are actually dragged down by full time salaries employees that do relatively menial work for the districts.
https://patch.com/new-york/southampton/these-12-long-island-school-districts-have-the-highest-average-salaries



talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1930
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2018, 07:36:34 AM »
Doctors in residency making similar amounts and work crazy hours. Seriously, 2-3 24 hours shifts in a week some alongside normal work days seems mentally taxing. Doctor salaries arenít that impressive in many specialties and regions when you consider the workload and the cost of education.

Doctors might spend 3 years in residency making subsistence wages while working crazy hours, but they it's pretty easy for them to get up into the $300,000+ range after that. Most normal people would be shocked at how lucrative medicine is. In order to make that kind of money, however, doctors do work crazy hours. It's not really appropriate to compare the MA/Teacher's certificate to the four years of medical school, either.

I cannot imagine anything a teacher could do career-wise to bring about a year in which $300,000 is within reach.
do you include professors as teachers? If you do, $300k is pretty plausible.

(disclosure: son of two professors, former economics professor)
$300,000 is within reach for serious, mega-rock stars, there are whispers of Nobel Prize-winners receiving that kind of money. Many of the leading researchers in business or economics can get above $200,000. If you go into college administration, it's possible to get into the neighborhood of $300,000. The Dean of a major college at a top school might earn that kind of money for managing an entity that serves 12,000 students and has an annual budget of $150,000,000.

I have no idea what I would do to find a college professor in the Liberal Arts who earns that kind of money. If you write a well-selling book while you're a college professor, the university actually captures 50%-ish of the upside, calling it "sponsored research". This is not a reliable path to riches.

andy85

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Louisville, KY
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2018, 07:52:12 AM »
I live in Louisville, KY, and can confirm that $55k gross is plenty. The same amount of money can stretch a little further in Versailles. I agree with the fellow Kentuckians who have chimed in on this thread. 

I am single, own my house ($615 PITI), paid off car, no other debt.
2016 - Gross 51k. Take home pay 37k
2017 - Gross 55k. Take home pay 34k
2018 YTD - Gross 48k. Take home pay 29k

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3523
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2018, 06:21:55 AM »
I cannot imagine anything a teacher could do career-wise to bring about a year in which $300,000 is within reach.
Perhaps a teacher who left the classroom and authored a book that was then adopted by the school system would make that much, but that person would be the one in a million, certainly not something accessible to the majority.  And that person wouldn't be earning money as a teacher. 

Oh, and let's not forget Sting.  He was an English teacher before he became an internationally recognized musician -- but, again, he didn't earn his money teaching. 

Realistically, 300,000 is out of the reach of the vast majority of Americans -- teachers or not.

Cushy is pretty accurate.  High pay, spectacular benefits, your job can be kept for 2 years following a pregnancy without returning to work.
Were you reading anything I said above?  Only a few states have high pay, and they're the ones up north where they're unionized.  You've shared one of the highest-paid group of teachers in the country.  My own state tops out at 52K for classroom teachers.  Spectacular benefits are a thing of the past.  Wrong about the two years; like all Americans, we are able to use the Family Leave Act, which is federal -- and I think that requires that your job is "held" for one year, but it doesn't mean you can come back into the same school, teaching the same things you were teaching. 

Incidentally, I was hit again at school yesterday -- I don't even know the student; I am filing charges.  Cushy?  Hardly.  That's why we can't fill the jobs here in the South.   

talltexan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1930
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2018, 09:01:29 AM »
I cannot imagine anything a teacher could do career-wise to bring about a year in which $300,000 is within reach.
Perhaps a teacher who left the classroom and authored a book that was then adopted by the school system would make that much, but that person would be the one in a million, certainly not something accessible to the majority.  And that person wouldn't be earning money as a teacher. 

Oh, and let's not forget Sting.  He was an English teacher before he became an internationally recognized musician -- but, again, he didn't earn his money teaching. 

Realistically, 300,000 is out of the reach of the vast majority of Americans -- teachers or not.

Cushy is pretty accurate.  High pay, spectacular benefits, your job can be kept for 2 years following a pregnancy without returning to work.
Were you reading anything I said above?  Only a few states have high pay, and they're the ones up north where they're unionized.  You've shared one of the highest-paid group of teachers in the country.  My own state tops out at 52K for classroom teachers.  Spectacular benefits are a thing of the past.  Wrong about the two years; like all Americans, we are able to use the Family Leave Act, which is federal -- and I think that requires that your job is "held" for one year, but it doesn't mean you can come back into the same school, teaching the same things you were teaching. 

Incidentally, I was hit again at school yesterday -- I don't even know the student; I am filing charges.  Cushy?  Hardly.  That's why we can't fill the jobs here in the South.   

I did not know that about Sting. I will have to start paying more attention to those lyrics.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11852
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2018, 11:30:08 AM »
I think that most people massively underestimate the work that it takes to teach well.

My mother was an elementary school teacher (mostly grades 2,3,4 and she also taught special ed reading programs) for thirty eight years.  She arrived every morning to her class at 8:15 am to do prep-work and setup.  She taught students from 9am - 3:30pm.  She typically had to stay until 4:30 each night to handle detention, after school activities, meetings with parents, meetings with the principal, etc.  When she got home she would do an extra three hours of planning and marking each night.  My father taught highschool (biology, physics, math, computers) for thirty two years, and followed a similar schedule (less prep-time in the morning . . . more time spent after school for athletics coaching).  Both of them many times spent personal money to ensure that their classes had proper materials during budget cutbacks.

Yes, teachers get two months off during the summer.  There are few jobs where this kind of large block of time is regularly given.  They work extremely hard during the rest of the year.  I'm an engineer and would say that I work pretty hard . . . but wouldn't do the job that they did.  Even for the summers off.

It's possible to go into teaching and give the bare minimum of effort.  I'm not sure that these are the teachers that we want to have, shaping the minds of future generations.  Paying teachers more makes the job more competitive and helps to ensure that the best candidates are selected for the position.

MrUpwardlyMobile

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
    • The Upwardly Mobile Life
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2018, 04:40:14 PM »
I cannot imagine anything a teacher could do career-wise to bring about a year in which $300,000 is within reach.
Perhaps a teacher who left the classroom and authored a book that was then adopted by the school system would make that much, but that person would be the one in a million, certainly not something accessible to the majority.  And that person wouldn't be earning money as a teacher. 

Oh, and let's not forget Sting.  He was an English teacher before he became an internationally recognized musician -- but, again, he didn't earn his money teaching. 

Realistically, 300,000 is out of the reach of the vast majority of Americans -- teachers or not.

Cushy is pretty accurate.  High pay, spectacular benefits, your job can be kept for 2 years following a pregnancy without returning to work.
Were you reading anything I said above?  Only a few states have high pay, and they're the ones up north where they're unionized.  You've shared one of the highest-paid group of teachers in the country.  My own state tops out at 52K for classroom teachers.  Spectacular benefits are a thing of the past.  Wrong about the two years; like all Americans, we are able to use the Family Leave Act, which is federal -- and I think that requires that your job is "held" for one year, but it doesn't mean you can come back into the same school, teaching the same things you were teaching. 

Incidentally, I was hit again at school yesterday -- I don't even know the student; I am filing charges.  Cushy?  Hardly.  That's why we can't fill the jobs here in the South.   

MrsPete, I literally said this was the perception in the north east because itís the reality here,  youíre trying to argue I didnít just say that this was the world view in the north east.

Just Joe

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2018, 07:38:26 AM »
I cannot imagine anything a teacher could do career-wise to bring about a year in which $300,000 is within reach.
Perhaps a teacher who left the classroom and authored a book that was then adopted by the school system would make that much, but that person would be the one in a million, certainly not something accessible to the majority.  And that person wouldn't be earning money as a teacher. 

Oh, and let's not forget Sting.  He was an English teacher before he became an internationally recognized musician -- but, again, he didn't earn his money teaching. 

Realistically, 300,000 is out of the reach of the vast majority of Americans -- teachers or not.

Cushy is pretty accurate.  High pay, spectacular benefits, your job can be kept for 2 years following a pregnancy without returning to work.
Were you reading anything I said above?  Only a few states have high pay, and they're the ones up north where they're unionized.  You've shared one of the highest-paid group of teachers in the country.  My own state tops out at 52K for classroom teachers.  Spectacular benefits are a thing of the past.  Wrong about the two years; like all Americans, we are able to use the Family Leave Act, which is federal -- and I think that requires that your job is "held" for one year, but it doesn't mean you can come back into the same school, teaching the same things you were teaching. 

Incidentally, I was hit again at school yesterday -- I don't even know the student; I am filing charges.  Cushy?  Hardly.  That's why we can't fill the jobs here in the South.   

I friend who is a teacher in a tiny town in TN. Reports the very same stories as Mrs Pete.

So a Long Island, NY teacher makes big bucks - what does it cost to live there? We had an interesting conversation with friends who live there. The answer is everything costs multiples of what it costs here in flyover country. Would a Long Island teacher have any more discretionary spending money than our teachers?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 07:51:45 AM by Just Joe »

MrUpwardlyMobile

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
    • The Upwardly Mobile Life
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2018, 07:56:43 AM »
I cannot imagine anything a teacher could do career-wise to bring about a year in which $300,000 is within reach.
Perhaps a teacher who left the classroom and authored a book that was then adopted by the school system would make that much, but that person would be the one in a million, certainly not something accessible to the majority.  And that person wouldn't be earning money as a teacher. 

Oh, and let's not forget Sting.  He was an English teacher before he became an internationally recognized musician -- but, again, he didn't earn his money teaching. 

Realistically, 300,000 is out of the reach of the vast majority of Americans -- teachers or not.

Cushy is pretty accurate.  High pay, spectacular benefits, your job can be kept for 2 years following a pregnancy without returning to work.
Were you reading anything I said above?  Only a few states have high pay, and they're the ones up north where they're unionized.  You've shared one of the highest-paid group of teachers in the country.  My own state tops out at 52K for classroom teachers.  Spectacular benefits are a thing of the past.  Wrong about the two years; like all Americans, we are able to use the Family Leave Act, which is federal -- and I think that requires that your job is "held" for one year, but it doesn't mean you can come back into the same school, teaching the same things you were teaching. 

Incidentally, I was hit again at school yesterday -- I don't even know the student; I am filing charges.  Cushy?  Hardly.  That's why we can't fill the jobs here in the South.   

I friend who is a teacher in a tiny town in TN. Reports the very same stories as Mrs Pete.

So a Long Island, NY teacher makes big bucks - what does it cost to live there? We had an interesting conversation with friends who live there. The answer is everything costs multiples of what it costs here in flyover country. Would a Long Island teacher have any more discretionary spending money than our teachers?

Even at downstate New York cost of living levels, they should have a fair bit more discretionary spending.  Their weakness is that buying a house can be shockingly expensive in downstate New York.

exterous

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2018, 02:40:41 PM »
My wife has been a teacher for over a decade and her experiences matches a lot of what @MrsPete has experienced. The years she spent in a Title I school in SE MI tempered her love of teaching but the other schools have been wearing as well. I keep hearing about all the great benefits teachers get but across the 3 different districts she's worked (inner city, well to do suburbia and now private)  we've always taken my private sector benefits (4 different employers) over her's because they were notable better

Yes there might be a few places where established teachers are doing well and make headlines with their salaries (NY, Chicago, Southern CA) but those areas seem more and more isolated. With more teachers leaving the profession and enrollment plunging it's going to continue to get worse
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americas-new-education-crisis-a-teacher-shortage/

fuzzy math

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 588
  • Location: PNW ---> Midwest (for now)
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2018, 07:56:03 AM »

Even at downstate New York cost of living levels, they should have a fair bit more discretionary spending.  Their weakness is that buying a house can be shockingly expensive in downstate New York.

Teachers should have the same options as other professions. Want to own a home? You should be able to with a 4 yr degree, a full time job and some budgeting. The localities likely know a lot more than you do about the cost of living there (state taxes etc) and have determined what a livable wage is. Throughout this thread you've made it sound like teachers in NY do not deserve the salaries they earn. You are perpetuating the attitude that teachers in this thread have mentioned, that until people make teaching a profession that people do not look down upon, there will be a struggle to attract talented people to fill the position and stay.

You also state that physician residents work 60+ hrs for low salaries. That is a completely different situation as they are putting in "indentured servitude" for a future large reward. Work exactly 3 or 4 yrs at $60k a year than make $400k a year? Sounds great! Doesn't mean that it translates to teaching. Work 60+ hrs a week for $35k (starting salary in my city) and after 15 yrs and a masters degree you can make $65k? Not even a similar situation.

MrUpwardlyMobile

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 396
    • The Upwardly Mobile Life
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2018, 07:47:01 PM »

The localities likely know a lot more than you do about the cost of living there (state taxes etc) and have determined what a livable wage is.
thatís a pretty idealistic view of things. I think we all wish that were a real consideration.

Quote
Throughout this thread you've made it sound like teachers in NY do not deserve the salaries they earn. You are perpetuating the attitude that teachers in this thread have mentioned, that until people make teaching a profession that people do not look down upon, there will be a struggle to attract talented people to fill the position and stay.
Iíve done no such thing.  Iíve described it as a cushy well compensated job in the north east, mainly because it is.  Iíve taken no position on whether itís well earned or anything about looking down on teachers.  I think your view that I have is an attempt is a personal bias that anyone who doesnít seem to espouse the exact same views must have contrary views.  Itís an imposition of ďother-nessĒ to suit personal views.

Quote
You also state that physician residents work 60+ hrs for low salaries. That is a completely different situation as they are putting in "indentured servitude" for a future large reward. Work exactly 3 or 4 yrs at $60k a year than make $400k a year? Sounds great! Doesn't mean that it translates to teaching. Work 60+ hrs a week for $35k (starting salary in my city) and after 15 yrs and a masters degree you can make $65k? Not even a similar situation.

That kind of huge number is unique to certain specialties.  Many doctors make under $200k.  Many teachers in the area make $100k+ by the time those teachers are done with residencies and fellowships....

I think itís important to see things in context.  What shocks me from this thread is teachers describing physical assault by students and verbal abuse.  I would think thatís an issue that has a lot to do with where you work and live.  If itís a ubiquitous issue, it speaks volumes about the the decline of order and behavior.

Slow2FIRE

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 190
Re: $55,000/year in Kentucky not enough
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2018, 10:44:56 PM »
If there is a teacher shortage, salaries will absolutely have to go up to attract new ones.  I guess the market will eventually tell us if they are under-compensated or not.

Nah, you could just do what Arizona did about a year ago and instead of increasing teacher pay you just lower the standards so more people can become teachers that weren't qualified previously!  (I didn't keep up with the news, but I do believe they did finally get some type of pay raise after teachers started going on strike).